Expose / Exploit in Ground PVP

[Archived Post]

Ok so I want to have a discussion on the Expose / Exploit mechanic in ground pvp. In PVE this mechanic is great, I find it lots of fun to work in an Exploit on and Exposed a mob and watch them disintigrate. However in PVP it becomes a different story, one hit kills generally take away from the skill of the game. I just feel that the PVP would be more fun, strategic and tactical if I wasnt one shot every so often.

I mean turrets and things dont make much of a difference if you can get one shot. Shield regeneration becomes pointless and ground PVP game becomes all about getting an expose and an exploit weapon and firing twice at each person.

I know people dont like WoW on these forums but as ive said before that is where my experience lies so I will use an analogy from that game. At the release of WOTLK the game was very different, Blizz made some sweeping changes that increased the power of everyone relative to health pools. This meant everyone died within a few hits. Ret pallies, Warlocks, DK's, hell all the classes were blowing people up in seconds. So Blizz listened and toned down the damage all around because the fastness of PVP kills meant any skillful actions were ignored as taking too long.

Anyway this is my point of view right now. I would welcome counter arguments as this isnt a crusade or anything just some views. Tell me how you feel about this mechanic in ground pvp.

Thanks for reading.

[Archived Post]

If I were king, I would try this:

Increase base weapon DPS by 50% (that is the "regular shot" damage, not the "special attack" damage).
Decrease exploit damage by 50%.


This change would allow regular weapons fire to play a bigger role and while one-shot-kill exploit attacks would still be possible, you'd have to at least be doing a flanking shot to get that guaranteed vaporization on a full health target


That said, there are things you can do about existing exploit shots:

Tacticals get some great damage resist buffs, as do science officers, which impact nearby allies and can be enough to let you survive a frontal exploit shot.

Science officers also get heal-over-time abilities that tick rapidly and every tick also clears exposes. It's hard to reactively clear an expose in time but if you throw a heal on someone that's being targeted you can often cure exposes incidentally just from the HOT.

Tacticals can also use Draw Fire, which puts a fake expose symbol on themselves, drawing fire and making enemies in PvP waste their special attacks thinking it's a real expose.


So I'm not unhappy with the current state of things but it could be better.



However,
one thing I do find unacceptable is this: http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=99376

Exposes will frequently cause a 10 second hold.

I don't mean that holds sometimes cause an expose, which is also true, I mean that the act of getting an expose put on you from any source can generate a 10 second unbreakable hold.

That's not fun and is unacceptable. I'd bet that 90% of "hold" complaints are actually from this hold that's apparently built into the expose effect.

[Archived Post]

Not to mention that the melee spam where you get 2 guys bum rushing you so the others can exploit.

Either remove the expose chance for melee spam or put it on a cooldown like all other expose abilities.

[Archived Post]

Hopefully Cryptic will change this, I been pointing this out since Beta. You find the expert PvPers constantly use this exploit by using Knockdown weapons or using perma stun techniques to get people for easiy kills.

Sometimes, these become 1 shot kills when using Skill Buffs and Item Buffs. This has turned Ground PvP into "who can exploit who first".

[Archived Post]

This has turned Ground PvP into "who can exploit who first".

Thats kinda how the game has been designed. You dont stand out in the open in a fire fight. If you are in the open you risk dying. The maps offer decent enough cover, not to mention engineer deployables

I would prefer the run speed to be slowed down a bit and the rolls and other maneuvers enhanced.

[Archived Post]

There is an expose bug.

Look here

http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=98227

[Archived Post]

duplicate/10chars

[Archived Post]

One shot killing in PvP is bad game design.

[Archived Post]

One shot killing in PvP is bad game design.
I disagree.

It makes it more like a FPS, which is to say that timing and quick thinking are more important than just standing next to someone hitting hotkeys while you papercut each other to death like most MMORPGs.

I'm pretty happy with the ground combat system, but they do need to do something about the lengthy, unbreakable holds.

[Archived Post]

I disagree.

It makes it more like a FPS, which is to say that timing and quick thinking are more important than just standing next to someone hitting hotkeys while you papercut each other to death like most MMORPGs.

I'm pretty happy with the ground combat system, but they do need to do something about the lengthy, unbreakable holds.

Yeah but STO ground combat has none of the control of an FPS. Because aiming is automated then one shot kills dont work. One shot kills in FPS's work because of the skill required to aim at the right area (head usually).

There is no real skill to pressing expose attack then exploit attack. Skill from MMO combat comes from other areas like skill usage, timing and positioning. What Im really saying is that the ground combat has a lot going for it without needing exploit and expose.

[Archived Post]

I agree with the OP exploit then special attack and I fall over from full shields/health to dead in 2 shots.

[Archived Post]

Science characters can remove that expose from you if they have the right kit, and if you treat them nicely enough...

[Archived Post]

I agree with the OP.


But I feel, we also need to add this, Melee Exploit attacks should do 50% more damage. atm theyre extremely laughable. At least having them do very high exploit dmg would make them viable in pvp. And melee in this game actually takes quite a bit of skill, so people off the street can't just pick it up and wtfpwn with it.

[Archived Post]

Yeah but STO ground combat has none of the control of an FPS. Because aiming is automated then one shot kills dont work. One shot kills in FPS's work because of the skill required to aim at the right area (head usually).

There is no real skill to pressing expose attack then exploit attack. Skill from MMO combat comes from other areas like skill usage, timing and positioning. What Im really saying is that the ground combat has a lot going for it without needing exploit and expose.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

A sniper in FPS has to at least work at getting good at his 1 shot killing. This is just auto-aim, press 2, switch weapons, press 2.

What skill is there in that?

[Archived Post]

I've actually been running into a problem with expose lately. The fact that, I expose someone via my stasis field, then sniper shoot them only to do 1/3 shield damage and that is it, even from behind I end up with like 2/3 shield damage, it is bugged or the players exploiting something. They can't use skills or do anything when it happens. The only excuses I've heard from the enemy was they had blue/purple gear. This has happened many times now, it ends up doing less damage then it would if I shot sniper shot normally.

[Archived Post]

I agree with the OP.


But I feel, we also need to add this, Melee Exploit attacks should do 50% more damage. atm theyre extremely laughable. At least having them do very high exploit dmg would make them viable in pvp. And melee in this game actually takes quite a bit of skill, so people off the street can't just pick it up and wtfpwn with it.

Im honestly not sure about melee combat. Ive actually not tried it much, but I dont think the way to buff melee combat would be include a stronger exploit. One shot kills are almost impossible to balance. Here are 2 ideas to buff melee combat without relying on an exploit mechanic.

1) When using a melee kit shield strength increases by 25% / 50% (which ever comes out fair).
2) When using a melee kit a new skill becomes available "charge". Charge will automatically close the distance between attacker and defender.

[Archived Post]

Roy and i am tested his exposechance

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbH0UuF5tCY

We have a lot of dismiss, but we have two good shows how often expose can come.

Thx roy for the test. Let us hope the devs will balance the expose a little.

The complete test gives out : 28 shoot. 18 Dismiss. 10 Expose = Exposerate 35,7 %

When you have more people with so high exposerate in the same group u have a lot of oneshootkills..

[Archived Post]

while I will or will not say that the expose rate is too high, I will say I have a problem with RNG.

I just did an experiment.

I rolled a d10 100 times and recorded the # of times I got a 10

13 times. so thats 13%, higher than expected. BUT I had 4 10s in a row at one point. So that is also an issue. You can have a string of really good luck.

I'd definitely like to see what weapons and traits and items he is using. Something sounds a little fishy but it could be good luck.

Your test included 28 shots. He could have had a string of good luck as I did on rolls 12-15(4 10s in a row)

I also recorded the # of tens up to the number of tests you did and got 8, so that would have led me to believe his expose chance was 28%. before target optics (which I think is 10%)

Will you be running more tests to check? A sample size of 100 would be best, but That's alot of killing, heh


ALSO, think of this. I have a weapon with an expose rate of 10%, and a skill with the same rate.

That is a .9x.9=.81=81% percent chance not to expose, or a 19% chance to expose. Target optics is up alot. just food for thought.

[Archived Post]

Science characters can remove that expose from you if they have the right kit, and if you treat them nicely enough...

You should try it sometime... I have a science/healer on Fed side and there is no way to remove the expose in time 99% of the time. You first have to be grouped, then see the expose, target the player, be in line of sight, then get to the tricorder key. It works if someone runs into cover but then most of the time they didn't need it removed anyway.

The problem is that with one argument they are saying you should not be sitting out in the open fighting and to find cover, but then they promote the tactic of 2 players rushing and spamming melee so they get the expose and their team can exploit.

Honestly expose needs to be removed from spammable abilities. It needs to be on weapon special attacks, and on abilities that have a cooldown. Melee is fine without it since you still get the benefit of a knockdown or stun.

Also exposes should never be linked with stun/freeze. There should be some amount of player skill involved if you want to expose/stun/exploit... as it is you just use a weapon that stuns and hope for the expose, if you get it you get a free kill.

[Archived Post]

ALSO, think of this. I have a weapon with an expose rate of 10%, and a skill with the same rate.

That is a .9x.9=.81=81% percent chance not to expose, or a 19% chance to expose. Target optics is up alot. just food for thought.
As far as I know, no skill is meant to add to the chance to expose. I believe the "Lucky" trait adds to the chance to expose but the tooltip doesn't say by how much.

Target Optics, the way I read it, has a 10% chance to expose the enemy on activation not per shot. And I have exposed people simply by using target optics on them.


What we're really asking for here is for the devs to make a general pass through the system to ensure that all expose weapons and modifiers are coded properly and adding up correctly. I would hate to see anyone ever having a > 15% chance to expose, since it's such a powerful ability.

[Archived Post]

As far as I know, no skill is meant to add to the chance to expose. I believe the "Lucky" trait adds to the chance to expose but the tooltip doesn't say by how much.

Target Optics, the way I read it, has a 10% chance to expose the enemy on activation not per shot. And I have exposed people simply by using target optics on them.


What we're really asking for here is for the devs to make a general pass through the system to ensure that all expose weapons and modifiers are coded properly and adding up correctly. I would hate to see anyone ever having a > 15% chance to expose, since it's such a powerful ability.

Right I'm not saying that it is STACKING, just that if you use a 10% expose shot and a 10% expose skil, your overall chance to be exposed is 19%

Also lucky only adds 3% chance to crit, not expose, afaik. I took it in beta and didn't get more exposes from it.

Cryptic really needs to give us more info. And there needs to be a database like wowhead where we can review all this crap.

I'm not too worried about expose personally. Yes it sucks. But I carry dual snipers. I use TO and sniper shot, and still kill people fairly fast. Not always, but frequently

[Archived Post]

we cant test more. U cant open private maps. Always it comes ure Level is to high.

With outher players 100 shoots needs hours. To find the testpartner in the same map and to bring the outher player to dont kill you two. Not easy.

I know my experience one time with roy. 10 expose in row. That wasnt funny and it isnt a lie. So the exposerate is to high.

U see the video 3 expose in a row is no problem.

Something must be done and we cant do it. The devs must do it and that fast.

I must say the most tactical and best fights 5 vs 5 i have when no one have an expose only with held or freeze.

[Archived Post]

Hopefully Cryptic will change this, I been pointing this out since Beta. You find the expert PvPers constantly use this exploit by using Knockdown weapons or using perma stun techniques to get people for easiy kills.

Sometimes, these become 1 shot kills when using Skill Buffs and Item Buffs. This has turned Ground PvP into "who can exploit who first".

For ground pvp I use a tactical guy with a lunge, stealth, legsweep kit.

My general way of doing things was to stealth, run past enemies, crouch, open up with splitfire weapon, switch to second splitfire weapon both from flank.

if anyone was still alive, I lunge at them and leg sweep, rifle butt, etc.

I regularly killed 3-4 people at time if they bunched up.

I think I was the highest damage dealer and most kills about every match, usually in damage dealt sometimes by double over the next highest person.

I also had a plasma rifle that had a secondary radiation dot equal to the damage, so it did regular damage, plasma dot AND radiation dot.

So, yes. Damage seems a little high on the secondary attacks.

[Archived Post]

For ground pvp I use a tactical guy with a lunge, stealth, legsweep kit.

My general way of doing things was to stealth, run past enemies, crouch, open up with splitfire weapon, switch to second splitfire weapon both from flank.

if anyone was still alive, I lunge at them and leg sweep, rifle butt, etc.

I regularly killed 3-4 people at time if they bunched up.

I think I was the highest damage dealer and most kills about every match, usually in damage dealt sometimes by double over the next highest person.

I also had a plasma rifle that had a secondary radiation dot equal to the damage, so it did regular damage, plasma dot AND radiation dot.

So, yes. Damage seems a little high on the secondary attacks.

Same tactics here.

Sounds like a nice weapon. Where'd you pick it up?
1st in Ice Mining FA?

[Archived Post]

and where is the same weapon for the klingons ? We only have to buy weapons. No groundmissions with drop.

I think the devs need a trainingshour about pvp.

[Archived Post]

Tonight I was exposed one after another. As soon as I was in sight, Exposed and stunned and killed. I went through 8 deaths like this before I even got a shot off. If I could have dodged, I would have been fine with it. If they were quick on the draw, good for them. My fault for being slow, but it's not like that. Regardless of skill or even expertise, you are just hosed. And since I'm an Engineer, it doesn't matter what shield buffs I have or what I throw out. I'm held.

Now I'm no pvp pro, but I've done my fair share of battles and I agree wit the Slamz. Being locked down for 10 secs everytime you are exposed sucks.

[Archived Post]

In certain matches tonight, I was exposed almost every single kill. It was mostly against what I assume to be a premade team. I can easily understand getting owned by a premade, but exposed for six out of eight kills? Maybe I was just terrible unlucky, but I wonder if there isn't some sort of buff stacking at work here.

Is it possible that certain buff are stacking in a way that they increase expose chance? Has anyone noticed anything like this?

[Archived Post]

You can shoot through "cover", so thats out.

Any sort of tactic is impossible right now, since its pug city out there, so thats out. Note the vast majority of people playing right now didnt preorder, and have been playing for 2 days now.

Trying to suggest that a WoW player do anything is likely to set off a fit of crying, and guess who these people are?

[Archived Post]

You can shoot through "cover", so thats out.

Any sort of tactic is impossible right now, since its pug city out there, so thats out. Note the vast majority of people playing right now didnt preorder, and have been playing for 2 days now.

Trying to suggest that a WoW player do anything is likely to set off a fit of crying, and guess who these people are?
Could have fooled me. I was shooting people through walls today and had one guy stuck in a wall where he could shoot everyone else but no one could shoot him...

:cool:

[Archived Post]

I think Cryptic needs to shorten the stun time to 3 seconds. That's enough time for someone to pull off a shot or the person to escape.

For ground pvp I use a tactical guy with a lunge, stealth, legsweep kit.

My general way of doing things was to stealth, run past enemies, crouch, open up with splitfire weapon, switch to second splitfire weapon both from flank.

if anyone was still alive, I lunge at them and leg sweep, rifle butt, etc.

I regularly killed 3-4 people at time if they bunched up.

I think I was the highest damage dealer and most kills about every match, usually in damage dealt sometimes by double over the next highest person.

I also had a plasma rifle that had a secondary radiation dot equal to the damage, so it did regular damage, plasma dot AND radiation dot.

So, yes. Damage seems a little high on the secondary attacks.

Not sure why you have to give your life story, but since you mentioned it, NERF Klingon Melee!

Joking! :D

[Archived Post]

Seem to be getting some good inforamtion in this thread. It seems you guys have put a lot of thought into this. And done the math to support your ideas. Im impressed. The expose / exploit mechanic certainly seems to be an issue.

[Archived Post]

i am a level 29 federation engineer with mk VI, rare body armor, shields, and kit. on PvE away missions i use only my batleth with no shield generators, recharges, or batteries and haven't died in 3 grades no matter how many +1, 2 or 3 enemies i encounter. (except for that one reman commander, apparently i'm really weak against that much psionic).

i queue up an FvK game just to mix things up as no one has any missions for me. it's me alone versus 4 klingons, ok cool, i'll just make little fort with my drones/generators/turrets/force fields and last maybe a 30-60 seconds before i die horribly and hopefully i'll take out at least 1 person each time. sounds good to me.

i get within range of the other team and am disintegrated in 1 shot. i laugh, respawn, and chase them down again and am disintegrated in 1 shot. i respawn, immediately build my entire bunker and wait. they come around the corner and i'm disintegrated in 1 shot. i respawn right next to them and am disintegrated in 1 shot.

you get my point. this is not my idea of "fun" nor is it even my idea of PvP. there's no skill or even any "versus" involved, all you have to do is wait for your expose attack to refresh. i have all the proper defenses and these people are a lower level than i am so it's not a matter of being bested by anything except a flawed system.

[Archived Post]

This whole games PvP system is flawed. It's like watching a Fat Lady drowned a buffet at sizzlers, and wonder if the salad bar will ever be hit. Now don't get me wrong I love PvP, not worth laying it out, but PvP is great if it's fun, but PvP in this game is disgusting to anyone that calls themselves a PvP'er. So to everyone that's about to flame if you never thought of any of these, than stay out of PvP.

+GROUND+

1.) There's not timer for start, teams are rarely ever balanced, and seriously can we make it any easier to spawn camp?

2.) The ability to constantly 1 shot your oponnent is not fun, if your abusing it than why are you in PvP?

3.) People say Klingons aren't OP, please. I have a Fed and Klingon toon, so I can see the difference by a mile. So don't tell me to get a Klingon before I complain. My Fed, even geared for PvP is destroyed faster than Britney Spears reputation. Oh wait, your going to tell me to get skilled at PvP, skilled at what, there is no skill in the PvP in this game, Stun, Insta-kill - repeat. Nothing I like more than trying to battle a Klingon getting slammed by a Bat'leth than Insta-shotted, or my favorite, the leg sweep surprise your dead combo. Can feds do this sure why not, have I seen it, no.

The list can go on for ground, but what's the point they all lead to the same place. "Ground PvP is horrible."

+SPACE+

1.) Matches shouldn't start till the teams are easy, shouldn't have to spawn in and find either fed or klingon gathered infront of a supposed random spawn portal. Not random, people figured it out, you spawn next the one you orginally spawned in from and so on.

2.) All in all space battles are actually pretty fun, minus the fact that teams are rarely ever even, and just need to be set that way before they begin. Not that hard.

3.) So space is good for the most part no real complaints, can't say anything about either class being OP in space battles, they're pretty even.

You can look through the massive lists generated by the players of this game on the forums for truth behind most of these statements, this thread is one of them. Ground PvP is horrible in this game, Feds get a disdavantage in ground, unless the team is unbalanced in-favor of the Feds, course that's not even the case sometimes. Ground should be fun, should be about fighting, not one-shotting your oppponent than going to find another one. I mean seriously, if your in a PvP match and all you do is look at your kill counter and hope you hit 40 first, than my god stay out of PvP.

Also to those people that say GG in a Ground or space battle when the score is Blue or Red 15-0/40-* in your favor, stay out of PvP as well, cause that's not PvP that's disgusting game play and only winning out of unfairness and not skill.

/Done

[Archived Post]

Lots of lil problems making it generally a mess. Spawns, teams, its all TDM....


Primary problem though is holds..they need to all be nerfed.
Basically anything that lasts longer then 3 seconds should be nerfed to lasting 3 seconds.

All holds(weapon/ability/whatever) should be on the same immunity timer...I'd say 10 seconds but that may be a bit to long.

[Archived Post]

This whole games PvP system is flawed. It's like watching a Fat Lady drowned a buffet at sizzlers, and wonder if the salad bar will ever be hit. Now don't get me wrong I love PvP, not worth laying it out, but PvP is great if it's fun, but PvP in this game is disgusting to anyone that calls themselves a PvP'er. So to everyone that's about to flame if you never thought of any of these, than stay out of PvP.

+GROUND+

1.) There's not timer for start, teams are rarely ever balanced, and seriously can we make it any easier to spawn camp?

2.) The ability to constantly 1 shot your oponnent is not fun, if your abusing it than why are you in PvP?

3.) People say Klingons aren't OP, please. I have a Fed and Klingon toon, so I can see the difference by a mile. So don't tell me to get a Klingon before I complain. My Fed, even geared for PvP is destroyed faster than Britney Spears reputation. Oh wait, your going to tell me to get skilled at PvP, skilled at what, there is no skill in the PvP in this game, Stun, Insta-kill - repeat. Nothing I like more than trying to battle a Klingon getting slammed by a Bat'leth than Insta-shotted, or my favorite, the leg sweep surprise your dead combo. Can feds do this sure why not, have I seen it, no.

The list can go on for ground, but what's the point they all lead to the same place. "Ground PvP is horrible."




1. I agree there should be a timer at the start to allow for teams to spawn in, though the 40 person kill count kind of acts as a buffer for that since 40 kills is plenty to catch back up after a bad start.

2. Being constantly one shot isn't fun, but the whole expose/exploit system adds some great fun and tactical sense to the game. Sure, it can feel cheap sometimes, but it is a good mechanic, just needs to be worked on a bit.

3. I really don't see how Klingons are OP in ground PvP. I have played both Klingon and Federation ground PvP and the two seem to be fairly even when playing, which means the PUGs I am in usually win. There really isn't any great difference between the two factions when it comes to ground combat, so I am sorry I don't see where you are coming from.


In general, ground combat is awesomely fun and balanced. Sure, it might need a few modifications, but I think it is very solid at its core, which is a great thing.

[Archived Post]

OMG
I was just in two ground PvP matches and lost 13 - 40 and 3 - 40. The reason for both defeates came down to the hold, exploit kill moves (and a little bit down to rubber banding the klingons went on the offience and we rubber banded so much everyone arrived alone). It was just insane and pointless even battle I was held first off, hit with a batlleth and then instant deathed. The Expose/Exploit has become so powerful that holds are now instant death.

[Archived Post]

3.) People say Klingons aren't OP, please. I have a Fed and Klingon toon, so I can see the difference by a mile. So don't tell me to get a Klingon before I complain. My Fed, even geared for PvP is destroyed faster than Britney Spears reputation. Oh wait, your going to tell me to get skilled at PvP, skilled at what, there is no skill in the PvP in this game, Stun, Insta-kill - repeat. Nothing I like more than trying to battle a Klingon getting slammed by a Bat'leth than Insta-shotted, or my favorite, the leg sweep surprise your dead combo. Can feds do this sure why not, have I seen it, no.


While I agree, ground pvp is unfinished and in a very frustrating state, I don't agree with your 3rd point. Klingons may seem OP, but please rememeber, we all have access to the same stuff. It's not like we have kits and weapons the federation doesn't. Don't you think that since it's all we do, we probably have figured out how to be proficient in it, for the most part?

The same could be said when the roles are reversed and the raid-isodes are released. I sure as hell don't know how to control my BO in ground combat, whereas I'm sure you do because you've had more practice.

[Archived Post]

After they nerfed gound PVP damage in beta I found it very hard to kill someone 1 on 1 with my science char, typically they would just use some skill to bring their shield back or restore their hp and the whole thing went on until more people arrived.
And I've played a sadly boring match after the patch to the current system, with 2 or 3 engineers on both sides, both sides entrenched with shield and medical turrets and pahser turrets, noone EVER died unless by a expose/exploit chain.

If you remove THAT then ground pvp is dead. This used to be the most thrilling part of the game, fast paced and entertaining, and look what you got from the first change to make it 'last longer'.

I do agree that melee expose needs to be tuned down, perhaps put them on their own 'channel' ... like only melee exploits can use melee exposes. Hopefully this would reduce the 'zergin' in where angels fear to tread'.

[Archived Post]

Expose/exploit is abused by the numbers, several attempts can be made in one encounter.

Figure you run into a team of 4, well bet that all their first shots will carry 10% chance of expose/exploit. Then they'll follow up with whatever the kit they carry can offer.(again another 4 ties to get that 10% window) plus any 10% aoe will splash across the group.(causing overlap 10% window)


Lates

[Archived Post]

Originally battles were too fast for many people because everyone just ran at each other so the devs listened increased kill count and health and shields.

Now people are learning to fight the random spawning causes issuebut two well equiped teams will set up and battle around doors and walls to give themselves cover. Maybe health and shields could be lowered and the exploit seems reworked.

[Archived Post]

After they nerfed gound PVP damage in beta I found it very hard to kill someone 1 on 1 with my science char, typically they would just use some skill to bring their shield back or restore their hp and the whole thing went on until more people arrived.
And I've played a sadly boring match after the patch to the current system, with 2 or 3 engineers on both sides, both sides entrenched with shield and medical turrets and pahser turrets, noone EVER died unless by a expose/exploit chain.

If you remove THAT then ground pvp is dead. This used to be the most thrilling part of the game, fast paced and entertaining, and look what you got from the first change to make it 'last longer'.

I do agree that melee expose needs to be tuned down, perhaps put them on their own 'channel' ... like only melee exploits can use melee exposes. Hopefully this would reduce the 'zergin' in where angels fear to tread'.

Ok so from what your saying they nerfed damage in PVP so now you need expose / exploit to actually kill someone. So your not for keeping exploit mechanic in PVP you just wanna be able to kill people. So maybe increasing PVP damage and removing the exploit might also be an solution for you?

I just want to say that I disagree that ground PVP is poor. I believe a lot of the issues mentioned wouldnt be issues if people wernt so careful becuase of the exploit mechanic. For example 2 sides getting themselves entrenched is a direct consequence of the exploit system, when you can get one shot so easily. This also leads to melee being underpowered.

Also in my opinion I believe removing the system as being the best option. I believe this because even the people who say keep exploit the same do it for reasons that can be be taken care of elsewhere. Basically if anyone can one one shot someone then it becomes impossible to balance. Even if its a really low chance to activate like 0.5%, how do you balance that against say.....30dmg.

Also like I said before once the exploit mechanic is removed then balance becomes much easier and things like PVP dmg can get increased.

Lastly I must ask how does having a one shot kill mechanic increase the tactics available? It basically removes the need to use any of the personal kits skills, any healing kits, any positioning, the flanking skill. It promotes one thing and that is 2 teams standing at max range waiting for the other team to make a mistake and BOOM someone is dead. Not much fun in my eyes.

[Archived Post]

i am a level 29 federation engineer with mk VI, rare body armor, shields, and kit. on PvE away missions i use only my batleth with no shield generators, recharges, or batteries and haven't died in 3 grades no matter how many +1, 2 or 3 enemies i encounter. (except for that one reman commander, apparently i'm really weak against that much psionic).

i queue up an FvK game just to mix things up as no one has any missions for me. it's me alone versus 4 klingons, ok cool, i'll just make little fort with my drones/generators/turrets/force fields and last maybe a 30-60 seconds before i die horribly and hopefully i'll take out at least 1 person each time. sounds good to me.

i get within range of the other team and am disintegrated in 1 shot. i laugh, respawn, and chase them down again and am disintegrated in 1 shot. i respawn, immediately build my entire bunker and wait. they come around the corner and i'm disintegrated in 1 shot. i respawn right next to them and am disintegrated in 1 shot.

you get my point. this is not my idea of "fun" nor is it even my idea of PvP. there's no skill or even any "versus" involved, all you have to do is wait for your expose attack to refresh. i have all the proper defenses and these people are a lower level than i am so it's not a matter of being bested by anything except a flawed system.


this is a common problem with most feds. you can't braveheart your way into a group of klinks and think you are going to survive. secondly i also have been in the 1 v 4 situation and managed to keep the score even till reinforcements arrived. tip: use corners, they are your friend.

[Archived Post]

I disagree.

It makes it more like a FPS, which is to say that timing and quick thinking are more important than just standing next to someone hitting hotkeys while you papercut each other to death like most MMORPGs.

I'm pretty happy with the ground combat system, but they do need to do something about the lengthy, unbreakable holds.

this.

it may just be me, but there seem to be less holds in t3.

[Archived Post]

you can heal away exposures

[Archived Post]

I disagree.

It makes it more like a FPS, which is to say that timing and quick thinking are more important than just standing next to someone hitting hotkeys while you papercut each other to death like most MMORPGs.

I'm pretty happy with the ground combat system, but they do need to do something about the lengthy, unbreakable holds.

rifle butt spamming your opponent so that they get held in place from exposes on your 0 cooldown ability is not a strategic FPS tactic...sadly, it is what destroys the actual martial arts/batleth melee options that are available.

I agree the 10 second hold from exposes is a rather terrible system.

[Archived Post]

this is a common problem with most feds. you can't braveheart your way into a group of klinks and think you are going to survive. secondly i also have been in the 1 v 4 situation and managed to keep the score even till reinforcements arrived. tip: use corners, they are your friend.

you can't braveheart your way into any 1v4 situation and expect to live

[Archived Post]

Possible answer to the ground PvP mechanic, remove the expose ability, no more one shot kills, adjust items accordingly, and let the game take form. We will see how PvP works than, with the ability to wear your opponent down instead of just ooops... he's out in the open boom. There is no honor in exploiting a system that is flawed.

1.) Take out Expose in Ground PvP.
2.) Reduce stuns and holds.
3.) Change respawn timers to force spawns.
4.) Don't start matches till game is equal on both sides.
5.) And by all means, Fix the South-East corridor on Assimillated Cruiser so it's not BLACK, and out of sync as you move through it.

There are several more things that can be adjusted but this covers some of the basics, if anyone has any problems with any of these thoughts, than go play COD or something, and stay out of PvP in STO.

[Archived Post]

While I can understand some of the frustration being vented here in the interest of balance I think we should consider a couple of other issues here

Firstly for the Feds screaming for nerfs just maybe, and I could be wrong, the fact that the only ground combat that klings get is pvp could be the reason they're doing well in a lot of fights.

Secondly in relation to the hold times while this might seem a strange a fearful thing to you guys who play with no latency on west coast US, to the rest of us affected by ping delay this has made for the first pvp where we can be competitive. As it is there's a good chance that hold will break for me before I can switch weapons, but on the occasions it doesn't then you get a penalty free respawn.

Playing mmo's for 14 years and this is the first time that pvp has been fun,ie not getting my can handed to me every time I play.

Modify, adapt, persevere. And for those pondering a strat try stealth sprinting through the defensive line, dropping into a crouch and hitting the boom button on a split beam. Awesome sauce everytime, just for the panic alone.

[Archived Post]

Someone mentioned a reduction in Exploit damage.

http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=113082&highlight=exploit

We will have to see how this affects ground pvp.

[Archived Post]

this is a common problem with most feds. you can't braveheart your way into a group of klinks and think you are going to survive. secondly i also have been in the 1 v 4 situation and managed to keep the score even till reinforcements arrived. tip: use corners, they are your friend.

agreed, except that the klinks braveheart YOU. i made a full bunker of every possible turret/shield available in 1 kit and they still sniper-exploit-insta-kill shot me from down the corridor. if i do happen to find a corner to hide behind and set up a bunker they just run around the corner and insta-kill.

if it really were possible for my fed/eng character to survive for even 30 seconds after being in range i'd be totally fine with the PvP. hell yea klingons are OP in PvP as they SHOULD be. but at the same time feds should have some sort of advantage via the weapons they use. think about AvP, marines rely in their guns, predators rely on stealth/snipe attacks, and aliens rely on pure hand to hand. that's a beautiful balance and really calls for strategy. there is no balance in PvP, i can share the same weapons, kits, and armor with both my fed/klink char despite klinks being racially superior at all forms of combat.

[Archived Post]

Klingons don't really have any advantage at ground PvP besides more practice and familiarity with it, so it is hard to say that we have a gear and stat advantage.

[Archived Post]

It amazes me how fast people can change weapons...I always have a delay or I have to click it 2-3 times to get it to switch.

No way I can switch back and force double dipping on the expose with melee and ranged or even range to range.

[Archived Post]

Expose and Exploit is ruining ground pvp for me but whatever :rolleyes:

[Archived Post]

I disagree.

It makes it more like a FPS, which is to say that timing and quick thinking are more important than just standing next to someone hitting hotkeys while you papercut each other to death like most MMORPGs.

I'm pretty happy with the ground combat system, but they do need to do something about the lengthy, unbreakable holds.

You say that and the first thing that came up when you mentioned FPS was "BOOM! HEADSHOT!" ahh the good old days. Either way without the exploits this pvp would take way to damn long with all the engineers and sci officers that are rolled.

[Archived Post]

Expose and Exploit is ruining ground pvp for me but whatever :rolleyes:

Indeed, especially with everyone catching on and being commonplace.

It amazes me how fast people can change weapons...I always have a delay or I have to click it 2-3 times to get it to switch.

No way I can switch back and force double dipping on the expose with melee and ranged or even range to range.

I honestly would like Cryptic to have one slot for Heavy Weapons and the second for Pistols, Melee Weapons, or even bare handed for Martial Arts attacks.

And along with it, a different rate of speed for changing weapons:


1 Second from Heavy Weapons to Hand-to-Hand (doesn't take much to drop a rifle and go H2H)

2 Seconds from Heavy Weapons to a Sword or Knife (Takes time to draw them after droping the Heavy Weapon).

4 Seconds to go from Heavy Weapons to a Pistol (Getting Rid of the Heavy Weapon to draw the Pistol and Aim it).

[Archived Post]

Seems like those chances should be more geared towards a tactical officer since that's what he's suppose to be primarily doing on the ground - DPS.

You shouldn't give equal one shot abilities to classes that are most survivable and have more CC.

Especially CC that almost always offers a one shot.

[Archived Post]

agreed, except that the klinks braveheart YOU. i made a full bunker of every possible turret/shield available in 1 kit and they still sniper-exploit-insta-kill shot me from down the corridor. if i do happen to find a corner to hide behind and set up a bunker they just run around the corner and insta-kill.

wah wah etc. etc.

Screw barriers and turrets and all that flappy crap.

If you are an engineer, you need to be using mines, bombs and weapon malfunction.

These aren't npcs. They aren't going to conveniently shoot at your barrier. They are going to walk around it and shoot your ass off.

Instead of that, drop mines in doorways and intersections. They snare enemies, and help keep them spread out.

Work to flank your enemy at all times. Use the weapons capable of the highest dps. Use your shield regen often, and early and save your sprint for diving out of the way.

Turn off auto face, and get used to staying near cover.

Know what's behind you, and back up before you end up 1 vs 3.

[Archived Post]

I've done my share of ground PvP and here are just a few things to keep in mind:

Exposes:

- If you are playing with your team, and not playing Rambo, you will not always be exposed in the middle of a hallway. This means that in order to be exploited, your enemies will have to make themselves at least partially vulnerable to take a shot at you.

- Considering the first point, good teammates use stuns, knockdowns, disables, etc. on any enemies that have LoS on you when you are exposed, to keep the enemy from firing.

- Healing heals exposes

What I personally feel should be considered for Ground PvP is the following (not necessarily all):

- a cooldown on riflebutt
- slightly lowering hold duration
- slightly lowering Exploit damage as mentioned above so that *most* vaporizes must come from flanking
- slightly increasing default attack damage as mentioned above (button "1" attack)
- maybe a "can't be exposed" buff after respawn for say 20s?
- buffing deployables (cept mag mines) a tad since they are weak

At first I thought the expose/exploit system was horrible for PvP as well, but really after a while you learn to accept and work around them. Having a team work together really helps. I've saved lots of teammates from being exploited when they were exposed. And *by far* the most kills come from the damage from secondary attacks, not exploits.

[Archived Post]

I did post here, but realised I was thread hijacking, so I broke it out to http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?p=2173056

[Archived Post]

It amazes me how fast people can change weapons...I always have a delay or I have to click it 2-3 times to get it to switch.

No way I can switch back and force double dipping on the expose with melee and ranged or even range to range.

Billy Mays here with another wonderful STO keybind! Ever have problems switching weapons fast enough when an enemy is exposed? Tired of pressing buttons? Here is a wonderful keybind for you.

/bind <button> "target_enemy_next_exposed$$+TrayExecByTray 0 1$$GenSendMessage Inventory_Root SwitchActiveWeapon$$target_Clear"

Screw barriers and turrets and all that flappy crap.

Ahh then you are not using your barriers and turrets effectively. Their usefullness isn't in their ability, it's that the targeting system (and pve mobs) will target them first, so you hide behind them to draw fire. (that is, unless they changed it in the last patch).

and another fun use for barriers, locking players in corners when they are silly enough to get into them.

nothing is going to stop the insta-kill, but knowing what someone is going to do pays off. Drop a phaser turret in the middle of nowhere and stay off to the corner, when they approach, they will take a shot at your turret, then you step around and get a flank shot.

...or not. just run wildly and shoot and die over and over. I don't know if playing intelligently gives you any advantage in pvp these days.

[Archived Post]

Either way without the exploits this pvp would take way to damn long with all the engineers and sci officers that are rolled.
I do agree that any toning down of Expose damage should be accompanied by decreasing the effectiveness of heals -- hypos in particular. I would put hypos on a 20 second timer and see how that feels.

[Archived Post]

Just a quick thought about the game we are playing...

Have any of you ever watched the shows/movies this game is based on?

Enemies+cover=entrenched fight.

Random redshirt solo in the open = Vaporized, without having to be "exposed"

We are using weapons that are designed to kill in one shot (on TV), the fact that we don't get oneshotted with every shot is a refreshing change from the show.

[Archived Post]

I do agree that any toning down of Expose damage should be accompanied by decreasing the effectiveness of heals -- hypos in particular. I would put hypos on a 20 second timer and see how that feels.

Actually I think the CD on hypos should remain the same, but make the better version of hypos available at higher tiers. I love going into ground matches and picking up large hypos in tier 1. But at the same time I think that it is poor game design to allow players to get access to the best items at the lowest level. Large hypos are just as effective at tier 1 as tier 5. Tier 5 they are more needed because of access to a larger variety and number of skills vs tier 1.

I would rather see something like

Gamma grade hypo =heals hp equal to average of that a tier 1 player would have.
Beta grade hypo=tier 2
Alpha=tier 3 etc.

Then start getting into flat percentages. The worst is needing one more shot to take someone out, and see them round that corner when their massive shield regen kicks in and they hypo to full, and then, despite winning the fight the whole time, you get exposed and vaporized.

In conjunction I'd like the ability to hypo a friend. I mean Crusher hypo'd everyone else, why can't I?

Alt click and hypo a friend in range, giving them a debuff =hypo CD so you can't stack hypos. Would encourage cooperation and would lead to over all matches.

Plus non healing hypos that have dispels in them would be great as well. Ie, remove that expose myself.
It's flat out, a poorly designed system.