SCI Console nerf IS IT A BUG OR NOT?!

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Well? IS IT?

/signed ANGRY!

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Adjusting levels for the game would NOT be a bug.

LEAVING EXISTING CONSOLES AT THE HIGH VALUES, and NOT LETTING NEW PEOPLE EARN / WIN them, is an all and all betrayal !! This COULD have been fixed during down time.

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Adjusting levels for the game would NOT be a bug.

LEAVING EXISTING CONSOLES AT THE HIGH VALUES, and NOT LETTING NEW PEOPLE EARN / WIN them, is an all and all betrayal !! This COULD have been fixed during down time.

How do you know its not a bug? Did you see some patch notes that i haveent????? Have you freaking seen a dev post on this????? WHERE IS OUR INFO!!!!!!!!! How the crap are we supposed to post bug reports if we dont even know what the intended changes were and what wernt?

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BEcause,

This game is still in flux... and they were obviously trying to reduce the stength of Science vessels. many complaints abouty science skills ruling the game. Read the forums...

I have heard a "Rumor" that leaving the existing consoles "as is" was a debated question. THEY CHOSE WRONG. I for one spent a lot of e-credits to ensure I had some for later. I also expect that to be a total loss if they fix this problem. I am prepared for this.

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Then riddle me this batman... why is there no indication of the changes being made in the patch notes? How come no deves have stated for or aginst.. The matter of science vessles being op is a matter of opinion! I dont really care if you think it was nesscary or not, i want to know if it was intentional!

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I've been told that this was intentional. However, I am not involved in the discussions about any balance changes, so I don't know the reasons why certain changes were made. Due to the large size of the Season One update, not every change got reflected in the actual patch notes (which were still huge). This one probably just got left out for that reason.

I hope that clears up at least part of the confusion. Again, I do not know why any particular balance changes were made, because I am not involved in those decisions.

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I've been told that this was intentional.

Was it also intentional that existing consoles were left unchanged at double the effectiveness of the new ones?

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Apparently so.

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Apparently so.

Bummer, I should have stocked up. They're going for 3-5m on the exchange right now...

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Apparently so.that's usually considered not a very wise move in mmo development circles . . . and that's me being diplomatic . . .

if the point of the reduction was to nerf sci vessels because sci seems too strong atm (which is what i personally think it was aimed at) all you've done atm is put new and future players or players who havent rolled an "end game" sci ship at a permanent disadvantage to those who already have.

i think you should double check and if it still comes back as intended ask them to reconsider.

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that's usually considered not a very wise move in mmo development circles . . . and that's me being diplomatic.

if the point of the reduction was to nerf sci vessels because sci seems too strong atm (which is what i personally think it was aimed at) all you've done atm is put new and future players or players who havent rolled an "end game" sci ship at a permanent disadvantage to those who already have.

i think you should double check and if it still comes back as intended ask them to reconsider.

I agree with you, and I have 2 RA5's who have 4 of most science consols, 1 of them in fact has 4 of every consol. I don't think it is fair at all. FFS I can make a VM last for 50 secs, not that I need it but I can stack 2 lots of consols now and have say probes and arrays at the same as a new player can only have one or the other, or probes and d/field. Way to much of a grandfather right.

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that's usually considered not a very wise move in mmo development circles . . . and that's me being diplomatic . . .

if the point of the reduction was to nerf sci vessels because sci seems too strong atm (which is what i personally think it was aimed at) all you've done atm is put new and future players or players who havent rolled an "end game" sci ship at a permanent disadvantage to those who already have.

i think you should double check and if it still comes back as intended ask them to reconsider.

This x 10000000000.

I rarely think that a dev team in a game makes a boneheaded decision, but this is definitely one. If science consoles are supposed to give half the skill buff as pre-patch, then pre-patch consoles need to be nerfed. Stacking pre-patch consoles gives a significant skill point advantage over someone who does not have access to the consoles.

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Bummer, I should have stocked up. They're going for 3-5m on the exchange right now...

I saw this coming on Tribble when they changed them there first, passed the word to my fleet and we all stocked up on the old consoles.
We are all now extremly wealthy...:D
Most of us still have some set aside for our use, as well as others still to sell.
Finally, a chance to make some cash to compensate for the hundreds of thousands we had to spend to get decent gear since we don't get story line rewards and, until recently, very little in the way of accumilating any gear outside of spending PvP medals, which limited our selection.
Just gotta roll with it at this point, I guess.

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Apparently so.
:confused: I fail to see the logic in this whatsoever. Stuff like this just fuels the fires of those that cast you (Cryptic) in a negative light. Put simply, it makes you seem utterly clueless.

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I saw this coming on Tribble when they changed them there first, passed the word to my fleet and we all stocked up on the old consoles.
We are all now extremly wealthy...:D
Most of us still have some set aside for our use, as well as others still to sell.
Finally, a chance to make some cash to compensate for the hundreds of thousands we had to spend to get decent gear since we don't get story line rewards and, until recently, very little in the way of accumilating any gear outside of spending PvP medals, which limited our selection.
Just gotta roll with it at this point, I guess.


The only time you need credits over the top of what you get anyway is when people take advantage and sell things that are rare at at extortionate price. What is the fascination with credits in this game.

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Are players leaving STO in droves because of poor design decisions?

Apparently so.

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The only time you need credits over the top of what you get anyway is when people take advantage and sell things that are rare at at extortionate price. What is the fascination with credits in this game.

I agree...but when the only way to get a nice Blue or even a green item is to buy it in the exchange at ridiculous prices because we don't have vendors that sell them, nor Missions that drop them everywhere as rewards, nor even as a mission end reward since Klingons don't get any, you HAVE to pay those prices to get the gear to stay competative.
Trust me, it has been widely grumbled about within the Klingon ranks since the game came out about how Klingons are pretty much forced to fatten the accounts of Fed players just to get the gear or do without them.
Either that or play your Fed a lot and mail the gear to your Klingon account.
Missions give Credits, no doubt, but not enough to buy items that are priced in the hundreds of thousands up to in the millions.
With the last patch, Klingons finally have a decent selection of missions that actually are dropping some nice gear, so maybe now we won't be forced to pay the price or do without.

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I agree...but when the only way to get a nice Blue or even a green item is to buy it in the exchange at ridiculous prices because we don't have vendors that sell them, nor Missions that drop them everywhere as rewards, nor even as a mission end reward since Klingons don't get any, you HAVE to pay those prices to get the gear to stay competative.
Trust me, it has been widely grumbled about within the Klingon ranks since the game came out about how Klingons are pretty much forced to fatten the accounts of Fed players just to get the gear or do without them.
Either that or play your Fed a lot and mail the gear to your Klingon account.
Missions give Credits, no doubt, but not enough to buy items that are priced in the hundreds of thousands up to in the millions.
With the last patch, Klingons finally have a decent selection of missions that actually are dropping some nice gear, so maybe now we won't be forced to pay the price or do without.

Yeah I did roll a Klingon and scrapped it for a 3rd Fed. You are probably talking sense come to think of it, for a Klingon. (that wasn't supposed to sound like... oh never mind)

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I've been told that this was intentional. However, I am not involved in the discussions about any balance changes, so I don't know the reasons why certain changes were made. Due to the large size of the Season One update, not every change got reflected in the actual patch notes (which were still huge). This one probably just got left out for that reason.

I hope that clears up at least part of the confusion. Again, I do not know why any particular balance changes were made, because I am not involved in those decisions.

This is good news for those who already hit the level cap, have their builds sorted out and bought all the science consoles they'll need prior to the S1 update, like my RA5 Fed Engineer who captains Science vessels. However, it is a big fat "screw you newb" to any new players and lower level secondary characters. Especially considering how skill points are percentage bonuses to the abilities tied to them and all science consoles add to the skill points. Sure a single MK X console from the PvP & exploration vendors is only a 15% difference between the old and new, however, when you use 4 of that console on a T5 Science vessel, that's a whopping 60% higher bonus for those of us with the old consoles over those buying the new ones.

To put it another way, I can spec for 2 abilities in a T5 Science vessel with 2 of the old consoles for each, such as Feedback Pulse/Science Teams which use the +Deflector Field console and Hazard Emitters/Polarize Hull which use the +Hazard Systems console and I can have those abilities from both Hazard Systems and Deflector Field as effective as a new character can do with just one of the two, because they'll now have to use all 4 console slots to match what I only need 2 slots for.

Let's say that new character spec'd for FBP/ST by having 4x +15 deflector field consoles. I can either go with 2x +30 deflector field consoles and 2x +30 hazard systems consoles, so when we use FBP against each other we are likely doing the same total DPS to each other. However, since I also have a 60% more effective hazard emitters I am healing my hull damage much faster than they are. If I went with 4x +30 deflector field my FBP is stronger than theirs, thus I have a much higher total DPS than they do. Also, my Science teams are healing more of my shield and providing a larger shield damage reduction than theirs, adding to the DPS disparity. In either case if both characters have identical ships, weapons, shields and abilities, the one with the old Sci consoles will win, regardless if it's CC vs CC, heal vs heal, FBP vs FBP, or what ever, simply because the one with the old consoles has stronger abilities in one or more areas.

Perks that have no impact on game play, such as those given to us Lifers is one thing. Giving double the console bonus, to those of us who purchased in game items prior to the S1 update, over those who were unable to make that purchase until after the update is flat out wrong. That's be like giving one duelist a M16A1 and the other a pump action Daisy Air Rifle. We know which of these two duelist is most likely to win 99.44% of the time. Sure the one with the Daisy might get a lucky kill shot though the eye 0.66% of the time, but the one with the M16A1 is gonna fill the other full of holes the rest of the time.

I put a lot of faith in this team when I purchased the lifetime subscription, but this kind of intentional balance change has me seriously questioning if that faith was deserved. Right not, I'd have to say no, it was not.

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I saw this coming on Tribble when they changed them there first, passed the word to my fleet and we all stocked up on the old consoles.
We are all now extremly wealthy...:D.

This is why I look forward to a patch reducing existing consoles, and leaving you with those consoles.

and don't feel bad, because I have a stockpile as well. So when it happens we both lose.

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I must say im am EXTREMLY ****ed about thier decision in this case. This was done with NO discussion in the forums because it was never posted in the patch notes therefore it was never tested!!! Then to just drop this bomb on people that was argueably unnecissary without retroactively changing the rest of the old sci consoles(a terrible descision) is a blatant disregard for balance and fairness. I belive that the community should speak LOUDLY about this and get it changed back ASAP.

IF there are specific abilities that they are trying to reduce then FREAKING reduce those abilities not every science console. Healing is already hard enough to do without nerfing our ability to do it.

Overall a terrible descision.

/signed Angry

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Whether the science consoles were to be left alone or the stats were to be cut in half is irrelevant to me. What is relevant to me is that whatever the values are supposed to be, ALL the consoles in the game should have the same values.

Every other change you have made to item stats has applied to all the items, regardless of when they were acquired. To me this is the only way to do it. Otherwise, why don't you restore my pre-existing EPS consoles back to their original values. If you are going to grandfather some items, you should grandfather them all. If you are not going to grandfather some items, you should not grandfather any items. Be consistent please. Also, when you do, choose the latter -- nothing should be grandfathered. All identical items should always have the same stats. Otherwise, you are creating, as others have said, a situation where new and/or slow levelers will be at a disadvantage.

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not sure it has or hasnt been mentioned but yeah the old consoles have the old "grandfathered" stats as staited many many many times, however the mission rewards seem to also be the old "grandfathered" stats aswell.
I managed to get a mk 7 and 8 sci console around the ds9 area as quest rewards. i think one was a deflector field enhancement and the other was astrometrics.

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What im seeing is a giant bucket of fail here.

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What im seeing is a giant bucket of fail here.

Me too. And lo and behold this one learned to type.


So, you got your answer. It's not a bug, it's a feature, although admittedly it's a rather unusual one, to say the least.
I strongly recommend taking the discussion about this elsewhere now.

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Actually the answer to the question of
Q1) Was the reduction in stats intended?
A1) GM_Litana - Cryptic Studios Team
"I've been told that this was intentional. However, I am not involved in the discussions about any balance changes, so I don't know the reasons why certain changes were made. Due to the large size of the Season One update, not every change got reflected in the actual patch notes (which were still huge). This one probably just got left out for that reason.

I hope that clears up at least part of the confusion. Again, I do not know why any particular balance changes were made, because I am not involved in those decisions."

Other questions were asked though and not been answered or fully answered.

Q2) Are the items from before patch with the higher stats still ment to be in game?
A2) GM_Litana - Cryptic Studios Team said in answer to "Was it also intentional that existing consoles were left unchanged at double the effectiveness of the new ones?" was "Apparently so."

But of course it would be nice to have comfurmatation, rather than just "Apparently so.".

Q3) Are the items from before patch with the higher stats going to have their stats lowered to the new values on them if they are not intended to be in the game.

Q4) Are the sci consoles from quest rewards going to have their stats lowered to the new values?

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Actually the answer to the question of
Q1) Was the reduction in stats intended?
A1) GM_Litana - Cryptic Studios Team
"I've been told that this was intentional. However, I am not involved in the discussions about any balance changes, so I don't know the reasons why certain changes were made. Due to the large size of the Season One update, not every change got reflected in the actual patch notes (which were still huge). This one probably just got left out for that reason.

I hope that clears up at least part of the confusion. Again, I do not know why any particular balance changes were made, because I am not involved in those decisions."

Other questions were asked though and not been answered or fully answered.

Q2) Are the items from before patch with the higher stats still ment to be in game?
A2) GM_Litana - Cryptic Studios Team said in answer to "Was it also intentional that existing consoles were left unchanged at double the effectiveness of the new ones?" was "Apparently so."

But of course it would be nice to have comfurmatation, rather than just "Apparently so.".

Q3) Are the items from before patch with the higher stats going to have their stats lowered to the new values on them if they are not intended to be in the game.

Q4) Are the sci consoles from quest rewards going to have their stats lowered to the new values?

Absolutely, until there is a definite response from or on behalf of the big cheese in charge of this, then I can only take this as a possible bug/error. Once a definite answer has been given this thread can close.

The decision made will decide the content of this thread in Feedback, then and only then.

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It better not stay this way the OP sci skills peeps whine about are VM, SNB and FBP all going to be nerfed so why nerf the consoles?

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All we've had in response to this thread about a serious balance issue is a GM response that amounts to "working as intended" in other words the same BS response we get about anything that's not a bug.

So how about getting the designer responsible for this change to post in the thread so maybe we can get a meaningful response instead of the standard "working as intended" cop-out the GM team gives.

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I was going to respec, but I remembered the newer science consoles were nerfed, so I decided to keep my old build and give up on a possible better build. Now I just don't want to change because my science consoles are better. I, also, wouldn't have minded if all science consoles were nerfed.

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Doesn't really make sense to have grandfathered items, they didn't do it with the EPS Consoles after all. I'll keep using my +30 consoles in the mean time but it's not exactly fair for anyone who can't get a hold of them. They should either all be made +30 or +15. Clearly it's possible to change all of them, new and old as just that was done with the EPS Consoles.

We need a more definitive answer to all this, and a clarification if it will stay this way or not, especially with the upcoming changes to SNB/VM/FBP.

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Doesn't really make sense to have grandfathered items, they didn't do it with the EPS Consoles after all. I'll keep using my +30 consoles in the mean time but it's not exactly fair for anyone who can't get a hold of them. They should either all be made +30 or +15. Clearly it's possible to change all of them, new and old as just that was done with the EPS Consoles.

We need a more definitive answer to all this, and a clarification if it will stay this way or not, especially with the upcoming changes to SNB/VM/FBP.

Grandfathered rights, is fine to a degree, but when it is stat items and 100% increased stat items with such a huge impact then it is completely not at all right. And I am someone who can nothing but gain from this, I almost feel like throwing the 30's out and replacing with 15's (find a use for all the badges) but that should not be my call.

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Its a stupid fix.

There is a lot of very strong ablities and there is a lot that are ok.
Now they nerf consoles, very strong ones are now strong and ok ones suck.
Great fix. *facepalm*

Change the abilities not the consoles.

And keeping them stronger for people that already have them is even more fail, and unfair.

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Good thing I bought all those +30 probe consoles for VM :)

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Good thing I bought all those +30 probe consoles for VM :)

Yeah, that's the only one I bought 4 of. I bought one of each of the other sensor and deflector consoles, but neglected to get one for hazard systems. If I had paid more attention to this, I'd have stocked up with 4 of every science console.

... but, I have to say, I'm 100% perplexed by their decision to grandfather these in. Why didn't they adjust them across the board like the EPS consoles?

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Ok, I think this discussion has moved sufficiently away from a discussion of a potential bug, and it needs to relocate.

I posted previously that I was not involved in the decisions on balance changes, and I already posted all of the information I had. I will say it again, I'm not involved in the internal discussions on this. That is why I have not gotten involved in this discussion of motives or judgement on the behalf of developers.

Please move this discussion to an appropriate feedback forum.