Is it possible, that we may have gone too far?

[Archived Post]

DISCLAIMER: This is not a flame bait thread. So if possible please limit responses to a constructive analysis of the post and or information/opinions of all posters.


I got to looking back at Dstahl's posts from today and yesterday in this section and I got the feeling that he was conveying a "vibe" if you will. One akin to a candy sweet tart. While some of his posts had a hint of comedic intent, the almost felt like they were flavored with a tad of sarcastic angst.

So, that got me to thinking that possibly with all this outpouring of anger and frustration that we have had over the RAF we might have gone a bit too far. Now, I recognize that some people don't care if we (as a community) have gone too far in our push back. Those folks aren't going to take this thread seriously anyway, I doubt.


Allow me to explain. Some of us have been here since the beginning. Yadda Yadda Yadda old timers, that sort of thing. In that time we have had Salegate. Lifergate, etc. Honestly, too many gates for me to remember them all. Some I cared about and some I didn't. Now, we have referralgate. In each case, there has been two parties, us and Cryptic/Atari. (Although I blame salegate on Atari not Cryptic). So in effect, we have created or they have created, depending on your point of view, a us verses them mentality so to speak.

I can't think of any manner is which that mentality is a good thing. I would tend to think it is actually a bad thing. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying don't tell Cryptic how you feel about a certain action or elements of gameplay etc. I am also not suggesting that we flower them with roses and hugs either. All I am saying is that after Dstahl told us he went to the CEO about this RAF program and that it wasn't going to change. Maybe, just maybe we should have accepted that we were not going to succeed in our desire to have it changed.

Personally, I don't think laying the blame on anyone is helpful in this case, as to be honest the only people who will really suffer is us the community.

Just wanted to share these thoughts with you.

[Archived Post]

So you think we should drop it? Daddy said no so that's it? Sorry bro but you gotta keep fighting the fight.

[Archived Post]

I think you are right, and I've had this sneaking suspicion that things are not all rosy at the studio (in fact i heard they are not, by someone associated with them). There are in fact a lot of things I want to say, but don't for the simple consideration that they may be just as disheartened with the way things turned out as we are... but for which are beyond their control.

Not to mention the fact that there have been several high profile people who have left the company (Awen, Gozer, Daeke, Shane Hensley, and a few nameless others that have posted here and there) and some not so high profile people who have made their way to the forums to post their thoughts and how they wished things had gone differently.

There very well may be a slight sense of exhaustion on their part. As I've said before... they are forced into this position of constantly churning out light content at a fast rate because they HAVE to in order to keep the subscriber based interested. Instead of giving themselves time to breathe and a length of time to work on something grand and big on the horizon they are forced to work harder and more quickly. And for their efforst, they see a bleeding subscriber base, and a consistently unhappy forum community.

I for one will be cutting back to give them time and a break. A smart idea, or a clever one, isn't necessarily a wise idea. And I wish they would consider more carefully (or hire me, as I can work magic). While it might be wise to say to keep fighting... on the other hand I personally am getting tired. Espescially after the recent spate of being targeted and discriminated against by Phoxe... I just don't feel inclined to bring constructive ideas to the table any more.

[Archived Post]

So you think we should drop it? Daddy said no so that's it? Sorry bro but you gotta keep fighting the fight.

I am not saying lay down and roll over and play dead. I am not suggesting anything of the sort. I am only asking that we stop and look at the situation. It is better for the community if we keep having angry threads about the RAF or should we tone it down some, while still expressing our desire for the situation to change? To be honest, I can't answer that for myself right now, much less offer a suggestion of the sort to anyone else. Hence the reason why I decided to share these thoughts with the community.

[Archived Post]

Welcome to the forums. We always go too far. Like TNT, We Know Drama. ;)

[Archived Post]

I think you are right, and I've had this sneaking suspicion that things are not all rosy at the studio (in fact i heard they are not, by someone associated with them). There are in fact a lot of things I want to say, but don't for the simple consideration that they may be just as disheartened with the way things turned out as we are... but for which are beyond their control.

Not to mention the fact that there have been several high profile people who have left the company (Awen, Gozer, Daeke, and a few nameless others that have posted here and there) and some not so high profile people who have made their way to the forums to post their thoughts and how they wished things had gone differently.

There very well may be a slight sense of exhaustion on their part. As I've said before... they are forced into this position of constantly churning out light content at a fast rate because they HAVE to in order to keep the subscriber based interested. Instead of giving themselves time to breathe and a length of time to work on something grand and big on the horizon they are forced to work harder and more quickly. And for their efforst, they see a bleeding subscriber base, and a consistently unhappy forum community.

I for one will be cutting back to give them time and a break. A smart idea, or a clever one, isn't necessarily a wise idea. And I wish they would consider more carefully (or hire me, as I can work magic). While it might be wise to say to keep fighting... on the other hand I personally am getting tired. Espescially after the recent spate of being targeted and discriminated against by Phoxe... I just don't feel inclined to bring constructive ideas to the table any more.

You make some good points here. We don't have a clear picture of what is happening in the Studio. So perhaps some consideration is in order.

I would like to add, I don't think you should stop bringing constructive ideas to them or the community.

[Archived Post]

too far? Not at all.

A polished turd is a polished turd and people have a right to be upset about it.
If the people who polished that turd are upset by the critics then they did not polish hard enough.

acceptance brings mediocrity. Defiance brings change.

[Archived Post]

I am not saying lay down and roll over and play dead. I am not suggesting anything of the sort. I am only asking that we stop and look at the situation. It is better for the community if we keep having angry threads about the RAF or should we tone it down some, while still expressing our desire for the situation to change? To be honest, I can't answer that for myself right now, much less offer a suggestion of the sort to anyone else. Hence the reason why I decided to share these thoughts with the community.

Honestly I think getting angrier is the solution here. Short of name calling of course.

[Archived Post]

Welcome to the forums. We always go too far. Like TNT, We Know Drama. ;)

We can take solace in the fact we don't have to deal with Ted Turner. ;)

[Archived Post]

Another poor decision by Cryptic/Atari.
That is all.

[Archived Post]

too far? Not at all.

A polished turd is a polished turd and people have a right to be upset about it.
If the people who polished that turd are upset by the critics then they did not polish hard enough.

acceptance brings mediocrity. Defiance brings change.

You missed what I was trying to say. Polished turd or not, there is a line when crossed only serves to harm the community and not those who polished the turd. So to speak. Your statement about mediocrity and defiance is not an absolute.

Please don't confuse what I am saying with a "I am defending the RAF" as that is not at all what I am saying.

[Archived Post]

You make some good points here. We don't have a clear picture of what is happening in the Studio. So perhaps some consideration is in order.

I would like to add, I don't think you should stop bringing constructive ideas to them or the community.
Normally, I would be inclined to agree. However given the recent responses I've been getting from the community team... I would say that my days are numbered. You would not believe some of the things they are pegging me with. They're credibility is at an all time low for me, and the ability to post freely either critically or constructively feels significantly constrained. Out of respect to their forum guidelines, I will not go into details.

[Archived Post]

too far? Not at all.

A polished turd is a polished turd and people have a right to be upset about it.
If the people who polished that turd are upset by the critics then they did not polish hard enough.

acceptance brings mediocrity. Defiance brings change.

Ah, but an absence of acceptance makes for a very oppressive world indeed. If I failed at a part of my job due to reasons totally beyond my control and was then told that I'm clearly a fat, lazy moron who didn't know what he was doing I wouldn't find that much motivation to try and make those people happy. Not to mention I think we're all human here and as such we should do our best to improve things and change with as few bad results as possible. After all world war 2 could have been avoided if Adolph had just been allowed into art school...:P

EDIT: apparently I can't spell

[Archived Post]

Its a very cynical move.
They were well aware that ship was highly requested by players.
The community should speak its mind.
:)

[Archived Post]

You missed what I was trying to say. Polished turd or not, there is a line when crossed only serves to harm the community and not those who polished the turd. So to speak. Your statement about mediocrity and defiance is not an absolute.

Please don't confuse what I am saying with a "I am defending the RAF" as that is not at all what I am saying.

oh I like the RAF and its exclusive reward. I think that those who feel that they deserve a way to get everything in game are just indicative of the Pókemon generation. There is no rule that says you gotta catch 'em all and you should be happy with what you can achieve.

I was understanding that you were having regret that you suddenly see the devs as human beings and are upset that you may have offended them. Which is why I said it's not too far.
They are part of a team that have taken the gold and promised to deliver. We are the market and what has arrived is short.
We have every right to continue to be dissatisfied whilst we are paying for it. It's not our job to be quiet, it's their job to quiet us. How they do that, by force or by product, is the measure of their stature and capability.

[Archived Post]

Normally, I would be inclined to agree. However given the recent responses I've been getting from the community team... I would say that my days are numbered. You would not believe some of the things they are pegging me with. They're credibility is at an all time low for me, and the ability to post freely either critically or constructively feels significantly constrained. Out of respect to their forum guidelines, I will not go into details.

Please, check your inbox.

[Archived Post]

oh I like the RAF and its exclusive reward. I think that those who feel that they deserve a way to get everything in game are just indicative of the Pókemon generation. There is no rule that says you gotta catch 'em all and you should be happy with what you can achieve.

I was understanding that you were having regret that you suddenly see the devs as human beings and are upset that you may have offended them. Which is why I said it's not too far.
They are part of a team that have taken the gold and promised to deliver. We are the market and what has arrived is short.
We have every right to continue to be dissatisfied whilst we are paying for it. It's not our job to be quiet, it's their job to quiet us. How they do that, by force or by product, is the measure of their stature and capability.

I agree with you to a point. I agree we should not be quiet when there is an issue that effects us. I am not faulting us for being upset. Like Dublin said, they knew many people wanted that ship. Which, I feel is the reason they put it in the referral program. Logically it makes sense. I don't necessarily like it too much but I can see the reasoning.

However, we should consider that there is the possibility that there are those on the other side who don't like the situation either.

[Archived Post]

I agree with you to a point. I agree we should not be quiet when there is an issue that effects us. I am not faulting us for being upset. Like Dublin said, they knew many people wanted that ship. Which, I feel is the reason they put it in the referral program. Logically it makes sense. I don't necessarily like it too much but I can see the reasoning.

However, we should consider that there is the possibility that there are those on the other side who don't like the situation either.

Ok. I misunderstood. I apologise for sticking my nose in.

I really have no issue with this referral nonsense and a reward that you will not see anyone with unless they are dumb and drunk enough to buy and register 5 new game accounts. ( hang on, i may do this just to spite people ;))
as I have said before.
little johnny has seen the other kid has cake and little johnny is stamping his feet screaming "I WANT CAKE" too and it's a little pathetic. Little Johnny needs a slap and to be taught a lesson about remuneration for effort.

And I have no idea why you would make a fuss. If anyone other than a few lifers are playing in 12 months and the few staff left can make models they will sell you every ship under the sun that CBS will allow them. Ask for 16 nacelles, a nuclear cannon and fluffy dice because when the revenue dries up they will sell it to you with nude pictures of their mothers.

[Archived Post]

They're credibility is at an all time low for me, and the ability to post freely either critically or constructively feels significantly constrained.

I really think it's a matter of perspective. From the things I've read, they let you and some others get away with posting a lot more things than they let irate posters get away with on their Champions forums between November '09 and January '10.

So you look at your posts and actions taken and feel constrained. I can understand that. But I look at your posts and some of the responses those posts have garnered and think, wow, they're really loosening up compared to how they were with the Champs forums.

[Archived Post]

Just wanted to share these thoughts with you.

I see what you're saying, but I don't see that vibe you're talking about. Don't over-analyze is my advice, heh.

You saw the post dstahl made with the v'ger joke. That he even responded to the one particular flame that came from it was surprising. But read the post. He's still just doing his thing. Addressing the issue and brushing the ranty bits aside.

And read his post about the referral program. Not the post about him taking feedback to the meeting and discussing things with the executives. No, the post about what he thinks about the referral program. All really positive stuff.

Keep in mind that 99.9% of the posts made by people with orange names on these forums are made with intent. They know what they're posting and why they're posting it. It's part of their job. The responsibility of being "official." They know we'll deconstruct every word they type. They know this going in.

Every now and then, a little crack shows the humanity of the person. But you ask me, that's a good thing.

And really, just keep up with the posts and see how much enthusiasm dstahl and others do have when they talk about things like the new ship interiors and what not.

It's not that I think we're all that great in our back and forth with the devs. It's just, I think they're very very very well trained to sift out the noise. The rhetoric. The rants. And get to the meat of the issue that they can talk about.

What always entertains me the most on the forums, by the way ... is when folks get frustrated about the dev "silence."

Half the time the devs CAN'T respond to certain questions. Because they can't answer the question yet without going through their process. And the rest of the time, they can't answer the question because they don't have an adequate answer.

But that silence ... that's always the best tool to get a conspiracy thread going.

;)

[Archived Post]

And I have no idea why you would make a fuss. If anyone other than a few lifers are playing in 12 months and the few staff left can make models they will sell you every ship under the sun that CBS will allow them. Ask for 16 nacelles, a nuclear cannon and fluffy dice because when the revenue dries up they will sell it to you with nude pictures of their mothers.


If you will look at my post history on the RAF most of them just express I didn't like the galaxy being a part. I admit for entirely selfish reasons. I wanted that ship and I didn't want to go through the trouble of getting 5 people signed on.


I do realize that you and I differ on our opinions on where the game might be in 12 months but I don't consider that an impediment to good debate. ;)

[Archived Post]

I see what you're saying, but I don't see that vibe you're talking about. Don't over-analyze is my advice, heh.

You saw the post dstahl made with the v'ger joke. That he even responded to the one particular flame that came from it was surprising. But read the post. He's still just doing his thing. Addressing the issue and brushing the ranty bits aside.

And read his post about the referral program. Not the post about him taking feedback to the meeting and discussing things with the executives. No, the post about what he thinks about the referral program. All really positive stuff.

Keep in mind that 99.9% of the posts made by people with orange names on these forums are made with intent. They know what they're posting and why they're posting it. It's part of their job. The responsibility of being "official." They know we'll deconstruct every word they type. They know this going in.

Every now and then, a little crack shows the humanity of the person. But you ask me, that's a good thing.

And really, just keep up with the posts and see how much enthusiasm dstahl and others do have when they talk about things like the new ship interiors and what not.

It's not that I think we're all that great in our back and forth with the devs. It's just, I think they're very very very well trained to sift out the noise. The rhetoric. The rants. And get to the meat of the issue that they can talk about.

What always entertains me the most on the forums, by the way ... is when folks get frustrated about the dev "silence."

Half the time the devs CAN'T respond to certain questions. Because they can't answer the question yet without going through their process. And the rest of the time, they can't answer the question because they don't have an adequate answer.

But that silence ... that's always the best tool to get a conspiracy thread going.

;)

BAH

*Waves hand with a dismissing motion

(j/k) :D


I understand what you are saying :)

[Archived Post]

I am personally of the opinion that many people use a tone that is way too harsh, and employ too much hyperbole. But this is not exactly unique to this board and something I see as a general internet symptom.

Still, there is a difference whether you just see this as a third party or this is directed at yourself. It's hard to just ignore the latter. Particularly because the core of the argument made often has truth to it - just the hyperbole and hatred swinging with it is overdone.

I seriously hope the community hasn't gone too far, and that the developers still listen carefully and figure out the core of the message and how they can fix the existing (or merely perceived) problems, but don't let it get to themselves.

[Archived Post]

I really think it's a matter of perspective. From the things I've read, they let you and some others get away with posting a lot more things than they let irate posters get away with on their Champions forums between November '09 and January '10.

So you look at your posts and actions taken and feel constrained. I can understand that. But I look at your posts and some of the responses those posts have garnered and think, wow, they're really loosening up compared to how they were with the Champs forums.

I resent this slightly, as I have seen what some of the irate posters on the Champs forums have posted. I like to think my posts are less emotional, organized, assertive, and statements I make are adequately supported by rational reasons. But by all means, correct me if I am wrong, provide me with examples, so that I may learn and improve.

Given the fact that I tend not to make sweeping insults like "Sector space sukZ" or "PvP is sooo lame sauce"... and also that I tend to be respectful of others and avoid making personal disbaragements, I'd say that comparing myself to the irate posters on the CO boards...is... well... perhaps I'm missing something superchum. The floor is now yours.

[Archived Post]

If you will look at my post history on the RAF most of them just express I didn't like the galaxy being a part. I admit for entirely selfish reasons. I wanted that ship and I didn't want to go through the trouble of getting 5 people signed on.


I do realize that you and I differ on our opinions on where the game might be in 12 months but I don't consider that an impediment to good debate. ;)

As much as I love a good debate and am always prepared to take a side, any side will do, just give me 5 minutes to research ;) I'll have to beg your leave.
It is 7:30 am, I have not been to bed and the election results have dried up ( hung parliament unless labour can manage a coalition with everyone except the right wing fascists. ) so I must get a few hours sleep.

sound your voice, it's not noise if you have a good cause.

[Archived Post]

Please, check your inbox.

checked

/ten chars

[Archived Post]

I am personally of the opinion that many people use a tone that is way too harsh, and employ too much hyperbole. But this is not exactly unique to this board and something I see as a general internet symptom.

Yeah, I definitely agree with that.

And you know, I see what Atomic's getting at. I really do. I think things would be a lot more constructive if some of the rhetoric was funnelled into more ... useful feedback?

The devs are willing to interact with us.

But they're really not going to be bothered with responding to harsh flaming, and we can't expect them to bother with that either.

So I see what Atomic means by going too far.

[Archived Post]

Nah, I don't think we went too far in some respects.
I have read a lot of the posts about the RAF program and the items that were involved and for the most part they were pretty civil with the exception of a few I will leave un-named and what was said.

It is fine to send a clear message early about some of these things, let your point be heard so they can gauge how well it will go over and it gives them an opportunity to restructure their idea before it all hits the fan.

If they had used the Excelsior, I can only imagine the outcry of anger.

At least with the response to the issue of the Enterprise ship, they now have an idea of their boundries with a decent amount of the community when it comes to future rewards for programs such as the RAF.

It's alright to be proactive and show your disgust, without criticism nothing would ever get changed.
Nothing wrong with voicing your opinions in a non-combative way.

Am I disappointed in their RAF giveaway of such an iconic thing and all that it looks like it is going to be able to do? Sure, but I will live.
Meh, this was not my first disappointment and will not be the last I am sure lol, but I will move on to more pressing matters at hand like keeping the battle going for more content for everyone and so forth.

Pretty much all that could have been said was said, pretty much time to move on at this point.
The outcome of the program will be the other tell of how well it went over.

[Archived Post]

I resent this slightly, as I have seen what some of the irate posters on the Champs forums have posted. I like to think my posts are less emotional, organized, assertive, and statements I make are adequately supported by rational reasons. But by all means, correct me if I am wrong, provide me with examples, so that I may learn and improve.

Given the fact that I tend not to make sweeping insults like "Sector space sukZ" or "PvP is sooo lame sauce"... and also that I tend to be respectful of others and avoid making personal disbaragements, I'd say that comparing myself to the irate posters on the CO boards...is... well... perhaps I'm missing something superchum. The floor is now yours.

I'm not trying to offend you. So I'll try to be a bit clearer I guess?

I read your post and what I thought you were saying was that you felt like you were being over-moderated? I am guessing you maybe felt you picked up some infraction points for things that you don't think you deserved them for?

My point was merely to state that ... I've seen much more heavy handed moderation on the Champions Forums for things. I've seen friends and strangers get moderated for things that really were surprising to me.

I can understand that you feel the way you do. No one likes to have their threads close. Or moved around. Or any other things the moderators might do to you. (It's really hard to talk about this without basically discussing their moderation policies, ugh).

So I understand how you feel.

I just ... have seen them be alot more strict with the Champions posters. And I've seen the Champions posters be a lot more deserving of said strictness.

I think discussion in these forums is actually much looser than it was there. And I know some folks think there's a lot of negativity here. But I see a lot more constructive back and forth here.

In my time over there, there was really only one developer ... the one working on their crafting system ... who would get into extensive discussions with the players. Answer questions fast. And give a lot of background info on the process.

It wasn't until Daeke was gone that I saw detailed posts from devs on their test forums about how they test things.

And I haven't been back since January, but I never saw them have anything as useful as the engineering reports here.

In an effort to give a personal anecdote ... I had something like 5 infractions in my time there. I felt 4 of them were ridiculous.

I have 0 here.

My personality hasn't changed. I still post the same way I did there.

:)

I just think there's more reasonable discussion taking place here. I understand some folks might think I'm crazy for saying that.

EDIT: And just to clarify, I mention Daeke ONLY to give a frame of reference for time. My post does not blame that person for the things I saw or experienced. And in fact, the policy shift to be more open was happening with or without that person. So I'm not naming that person for any other reason than to give a point of time for when things changed. Up until that big hubub, I really only saw the crafting forum get fast, and extensive, dev interaction. After that whole hubub, there did start to be a lot more talking on the test forums. But I was already gone. Far too disillusioned with their process to find much solace in the change.

[Archived Post]

I stand by my outrage that the Galaxy-X will have unique game effects. I feel that this marks yet another step towards turning this game into a pay-for-power cash store MMO despite the endless blandishments to the contrary before release.

[Archived Post]

It should be an us vs them mentality. Cryptic and Atari shouldn't get away with what they've done, and people continuing to play nice, playing along, and worst of all keep subscribing, are doing great harm.

Regardless of what some of you think right now, this most likely isn't the last mmo you're going to try, and unless you want most mmos being rushed out messes like we've seen the last two or three years that instantly hemorrhage their populations like STO has, you need to start taking a stand.

[Archived Post]

I stand by my outrage that the Galaxy-X will have unique game effects. I feel that this marks yet another step towards turning this game into a pay-for-power cash store MMO despite the endless blandishments to the contrary before release.

I think if they add a cloak, that it won't be exclusive to that ship. That cloaking on the fed side will be something that gets added as the game expands. So that ship will just be the teaser of what's to come.

As far as the super phaser cannon wave motion gun death star beam it can shoot?

That will either be a horrible weapon that's forced onto a cruiser that can't use it very well. Or it will be something akin to the red matter device. Either way, it will handicap the ship.

I wouldn't worry if I were you.

[Archived Post]

It should be an us vs them mentality.

Unfortunately ...

If you paid money to purchase this game and play it ... you have already lost your fight.

[Archived Post]

I'm not trying to offend you. So I'll try to be a bit clearer I guess?

I read your post and what I thought you were saying was that you felt like you were being over-moderated? I am guessing you maybe felt you picked up some infraction points for things that you don't think you deserved them for?

My point was merely to state that ... I've seen much more heavy handed moderation on the Champions Forums for things. I've seen friends and strangers get moderated for things that really were surprising to me.

I can understand that you feel the way you do. No one likes to have their threads close. Or moved around. Or any other things the moderators might do to you. (It's really hard to talk about this without basically discussing their moderation policies, ugh).

So I understand how you feel.

I just ... have seen them be alot more strict with the Champions posters. And I've seen the Champions posters be a lot more deserving of said strictness.

I think discussion in these forums is actually much looser than it was there. And I know some folks think there's a lot of negativity here. But I see a lot more constructive back and forth here.

In my time over there, there was really only one developer ... the one working on their crafting system ... who would get into extensive discussions with the players. Answer questions fast. And give a lot of background info on the process.

It wasn't until Daeke was gone that I saw detailed posts from devs on their test forums about how they test things.

And I haven't been back since January, but I never saw them have anything as useful as the engineering reports here.

In an effort to give a personal anecdote ... I had something like 5 infractions in my time there. I felt 4 of them were ridiculous.

I have 0 here.

My personality hasn't changed. I still post the same way I did there.

:)

I just think there's more reasonable discussion taking place here. I understand some folks might think I'm crazy for saying that.

EDIT: And just to clarify, I mention Daeke ONLy to give a frame of reference for time. My post does not blame that person for the things I saw or experienced. And in fact, the policy shift to be more open was happening with or without that person. So I'm not naming that person for any other reason than to give a point of time for when things changed. Up until that big hubub, I really only saw the crafting forum get fast, and extensive, dev interaction.

Ah, I see. I misunderstood you then, and I apologize for that. I see what you were saying.

Perhaps things are changing here. Since being hyper-active on these forums since the end of 2008, I've never once received so much as a warning for anything I've posted... until Phoxe stepped in.

And yes, we can't discuss the specifics, but needless to say... I feel Phoxe is abusing his position, and have sufficient reason to believe so. As for the CO forums... perhaps they needed to be super ban hammeresque... because those forums were FIERY. Can't blame them though, that product was less than stellar from what I have consistently heard/read/seen, not to mention all the fiascos and debacles they went through. Poor them (and poor Cryptic).

[Archived Post]

I think the argument over the RAF Enterprise. Went way to far. I think that it's strange to see that many people go crazy over that ship. I remember seeing it on the show and thought it was magnificent.

After seeing it later it was just in an alternate universe. For less than 30 seconds. They just duplicated the nacelle and pylon. Then welded it to the Enterprise model. Instead of designing a futuristic Enterprise. I really don't see that ship as all that iconic. If it had been in more episodes maybe. That was a good TNG show.

When I first saw the ship. I wanted it. When I saw I had to get 5 players to subscribe for one month. I knew there was no way I could get it. I don't believe because I subscribe to a MMO. I should be entitled to get every item in the game. I can also see why they don't want thousands flying around since it was only in one show for under thirty seconds.

I think the RAF riot went to far.

[Archived Post]

It should be an us vs them mentality. Cryptic and Atari shouldn't get away with what they've done, and people continuing to play nice, playing along, and worst of all keep subscribing, are doing great harm.

Us vs. Them? Get away with what they've done? Doing great harm? ...Are you serious about any of that?:rolleyes:

If you like the game subscribe and play it. If you dont, then dont. Its not a war. Its paid entertainment. If you're not entertained, pay for something else instead. But if someone is enjoying the game and continues to subscribe, there's nothing wrong with that.

[Archived Post]

I agree with most of the posts in this thread. I often see two valid feedback categories on the forums: 1) "Let's kick their f'n ass until they change this" And 2) "We love the game but we want this to change, here's why".

Category 1 is perceived as "crazies with pitchforks" by those in Category 2.

Category 2 is perceived as "fanboys, dev pets and sycophants" by those in Category 1.

In reality they are both on the same team, trying to make STO better in their own ways. But their approaches and mindsets are so extreme they will almost never recognize this.

Devs, on the other hand, are weary of having to sift through the flames of those in Category 1. You can see this in recent comments by Dstahl who went to bat for us over the Galaxy X (thank you btw!). And now the mods will be filing all feedback about marketing offers into a "special" more "organized" section of the forums. Uh huh...

Although I almost never post against people in Category 1 (because I too am passionate about certain things) I think the over-the-top negativity is starting to take it's toll. Keep fighting for what you believe in but pick your battles and consider how the devs might perceive any irate posts because more than likely they are starting to fall on deaf ears.

[Archived Post]

I think the argument over the RAF Enterprise. Went way to far. I think that it's strange to see that many people go crazy over that ship. I remember seeing it on the show and thought it was magnificent.

After seeing it later it was just in an alternate universe. For less than 30 seconds. They just duplicated the nacelle and pylon. Then welded it to the Enterprise model. Instead of designing a futuristic Enterprise. I really don't see that ship as all that iconic. If it had been in more episodes maybe. That was a good TNG show.

When I first saw the ship. I wanted it. When I saw I had to get 5 players to subscribe for one month. I knew there was no way I could get it. I don't believe because I subscribe to a MMO. I should be entitled to get every item in the game. I can also see why they don't want thousands flying around since it was only in one show for under thirty seconds.

I think the RAF riot went to far.

This is a bit of a tangent but I hope I have a point ... heh.

So, like I was trying to think about what I would get that emotional or passionate about in terms of a reward put into a system I knew I couldn't achieve.

I admit ... I look at the RAF and think ... yeah, I can't get 5 people to do that. And it's absurd to buy 5 separate accounts.

So there's no way I could achieve that goal. But I look at the reward and am not interested.

How would I feel if it were a reward I wanted?

Well I'm a uniform FREAK! I absolutely go crazy for uniform variations.
I thought what if the reward was the uniform from that future time?

And realized I'd still not bother.

I think it's an ok uni, but I'm not worried I don't have it.

Then I rememberd ... one of the races the devs want to make playable is Deltans.

What if the reward for the RAF were ... the Motion Picture Uniforms?

I found my catalyst.

I'd be freaking out because those I'd want.

[Archived Post]

Keep fighting for what you believe in but pick your battles and consider how the devs might perceive any irate posts

Wooooooooooooooo. This!

[Archived Post]

It should be an us vs them mentality. Cryptic and Atari shouldn't get away with what they've done, and people continuing to play nice, playing along, and worst of all keep subscribing, are doing great harm.

Regardless of what some of you think right now, this most likely isn't the last mmo you're going to try, and unless you want most mmos being rushed out messes like we've seen the last two or three years that instantly hemorrhage their populations like STO has, you need to start taking a stand.

An us vs. them mentality is almost never a good idea. Rushed mmos that instantly lose their subscriber bases are, amazingly, less productive than ones that keep their sub bases. No mmo ever has gone into production witth the mindset of "We'll get a bunch of money on the box sales to cover our losses and then hope that we keep enough subs to keep the servers up".

The developers want this game to be as good as we do. You think they don't play games? There are a few people there who I know love Mass Effect 2, they've played WoW and other AAA MMOs. If anything it should be us and the developers against Atari. But then it might not even be their fault because they're doing really badly right now and they need every last bit of cash they can get, Atari made some bad choices and now STO is paying for them.

[Archived Post]

I stand by my outrage that the Galaxy-X will have unique game effects. I feel that this marks yet another step towards turning this game into a pay-for-power cash store MMO despite the endless blandishments to the contrary before release.

I would have left a long time ago. But with their refusal to give me a refund for my LTS... well... I'll stick around give them the feedback I am entitled too, since I am technically a "paid up customer". :p

To get that Galaxy X squidheadx... you have to essentially earn Cryptic $220. That is how much the Galaxy X is worth to them [5 boxes @ 40% discount ( 29.99x5) +5 months subs (14.99x5) = roughly $220].

[Archived Post]

I think if they add a cloak, that it won't be exclusive to that ship. That cloaking on the fed side will be something that gets added as the game expands. So that ship will just be the teaser of what's to come.

As far as the super phaser cannon wave motion gun death star beam it can shoot?

That will either be a horrible weapon that's forced onto a cruiser that can't use it very well. Or it will be something akin to the red matter device. Either way, it will handicap the ship.

I wouldn't worry if I were you.

It's not sufficient to me that it be balanced (although the muddled descriptions don't fill me with confidence that it will be, and speculation that it will be is just the same as speculation it won't be). It's selling off gameplay choices. It's indistinct from selling off different BO power options or weapons types or, of course, actual different ship classes rather than skins. The sort of thing to be expected in a game you pay for piecemeal that doesn't have a subscription.

[Archived Post]

I agree with most of the posts in this thread. I often see two valid feedback categories on the forums: 1) "Let's kick their f'n ass until they change this" And 2) "We love the game but we want this to change, here's why".

Category 1 is perceived as "crazies with pitchforks" by those in Category 2.

Category 2 is perceived as "fanboys, dev pets and sycophants" by those in Category 1.

In reality they are both on the same team, trying to make STO better in their own ways. But their approaches and mindsets are so extreme they will almost never recognize this.

Devs, on the other hand, are weary of having to sift through the flames of those in Category 1. You can see this in recent comments by Dstahl who went to bat for us over the Galaxy X (thank you btw!). And now the mods will be filing all feedback about marketing offers into a "special" more "organized" section of the forums. Uh huh...

Although I almost never post against people in Category 1 (because I too am passionate about certain things) I think the over-the-top negativity is starting to take it's toll. Keep fighting for what you believe in but pick your battles and consider how the devs might perceive any irate posts because more than likely they are starting to fall on deaf ears.

Blunt and to the point while being sane and rational with good advice. I commend you.

[Archived Post]

This is a bit of a tangent but I hope I have a point ... heh.

So, like I was trying to think about what I would get that emotional or passionate about in terms of a reward put into a system I knew I couldn't achieve.

I admit ... I look at the RAF and think ... yeah, I can't get 5 people to do that. And it's absurd to buy 5 separate accounts.

So there's no way I could achieve that goal. But I look at the reward and am not interested.

How would I feel if it were a reward I wanted?

Well I'm a uniform FREAK! I absolutely go crazy for uniform variations.
I thought what if the reward was the uniform from that future time?

And realized I'd still not bother.

I think it's an ok uni, but I'm not worried I don't have it.

Then I rememberd ... one of the races the devs want to make playable is Deltans.

What if the reward for the RAF were ... the Motion Picture Uniforms?

I found my catalyst.

I'd be freaking out because those I'd want.

I am a uniform freak also. I bought the retail collectors edition for the TNG uniforms. I think all the uniforms should have been offered for free. I don't think that is to much to ask of them. I bought the collectors edition for those. I think uniforms should be free. So players can show support for their favorite show or movie.

The liberated Borg and the Alternate Enterprise should be exclusives. In my opinion they shouldn't be common. Since they were never common in the series.

[Archived Post]

It's not sufficient to me that it be balanced (although the muddled descriptions don't fill me with confidence that it will be, and speculation that it will be is just the same as speculation it won't be). It's selling off gameplay choices. It's indistinct from selling off different BO power options or weapons types or, of course, actual different ship classes rather than skins. The sort of thing to be expected in a game you pay for piecemeal that doesn't have a subscription.

I don't quite see it the way you do. If they're FORCING a cannon into a forward weapon slot on a cruiser ... that's not selling off a gameplay choice.

That's ...

1- Something you can currently equip.
2- A bad choice. Because it doesn't work well on a cruiser.
3- Not something to be upset over as the superior gameplay choice will be to fly something else.

As far as the rumored cloaking device goes ... if they preview it with this, but then make it available to other ships at that tier or beyond ... then it's moot. It becomes the norm once the game makes it standard. I can live with the paltry few people who have that ship getting this BEFORE me, if it eventually just becomes the norm. And a federation cloak? Is something they'd most likely do that with.

So ... in short ... Cannon ... BAD IDEA, because it's going to suck!

Cloak? Not a worry, because if they give it to one fed ship, they'll give it to the rest.

[Archived Post]

I am a uniform freak also. I bought the retail collectors edition for the TNG uniforms. I think all the uniforms should have been offered for free. I don't think that is to much to ask of them. I bought the collectors edition for those. I think uniforms should be free. So players can show support for their favorite show or movie.

The liberated Borg and the Alternate Enterprise should be exclusives. In my pinion they shouldn't be common. Since they were never common in the series.

I wish the standard unis, like TNG and DS9 were free. Or offered in a magazine. Or something like that. Because I agree with the sentiment being expressed in posts like yours. They're unis from the show. So many more players should have access to them.

I am, however a freak. For unis. And bought a CE and now have the TNG, DS9, TOS and Khan uniforms. I do not recommend that path. And would support a much more player friendly path. And oddly enough, since I am aware of my problem, I wouldn't feel resentment if they made TNG unis and DS9 unis easy to get tomorrow or next week or whatever. I'd just be happy to see more folks in them.

:)

[Archived Post]

So ... in short ... Cannon ... BAD IDEA, because it's going to suck!

Cloak? Not a worry, because if they give it to one fed ship, they'll give it to the rest.

We already know the cannon on the Galaxy-X is going to be something distinct from the standard cannon weapons.

You're speculating as much as I am, if not more. All we know is it's going to be something different, and trivial assurances taht could be made to the contrary haven't been.

I would have left a long time ago. But with their refusal to give me a refund for my LTS... well... I'll stick around give them the feedback I am entitled too, since I am technically a "paid up customer". :p

To get that Galaxy X squidheadx... you have to essentially earn Cryptic $220. That is how much the Galaxy X is worth to them [5 boxes @ 40% discount ( 29.99x5) +5 months subs (14.99x5) = roughly $220].

You keep misspelling my forum name :p :D

Yeah, I'm unpleasantly aware of that figure already, which is why I object to the Galaxy-X having unique mechanics.

I'm not entirely certain whether I'd still have been subbing or not up to this point. In all honesty I probably would be, but more due to the RP and personal connections I have in game than being impressed by the changes Cryptic has made so far.

[Archived Post]

Hmm... gone to far. I have to agree with that. Of cousre I have been thru all of the various "gates". Been here since open beta. I keep coming back to one fact. Its a game. I just don't see getting my blood pressure up over a video game. Its cryptics game in the end they can do what they want with it. Yeah we may not like it but while we are the customers they own it. The only rights we have is the right to play that we pay for. Beyond that everything else is a courtesy given to us by Cryptic. They don't have to listen to us. They don't have to seek our advice on things. They don't even have to provide this forum. They choose to. They might be wise to. That doesn't change the fact that they don't have to. Do I like everything they have done? No. I have posted as such. However, I just can't ge worked up over it. Its not mine.

[Archived Post]

You keep misspelling my forum name :p :D

No one told you? They're releasing an exclusive Squidhead-X variant of you. With an extra Nacelle on top of your head. ;)

[Archived Post]

No one told you? They're releasing an exclusive Squidhead-X variant of you. With an extra Nacelle on top of your head. ;)

...but that's not where I'd want an extra nacelle :eek:

I'd be damn snazzy with a cannon tho.

[Archived Post]

We already know the cannon on the Galaxy-X is going to be something distinct from the standard cannon weapons.

You're speculating as much as I am, if not more. All we know is it's going to be something different, and trivial assurances taht could be made to the contrary haven't been.

I might be speculating about some things. But I am sure of others.

A phaser lance, a phaser cannon, whatever it is ... will have a limited firing arc. Because those things do in gameplay mechanics. You see it with the weapons. But you also see it with the firing arc on things like science powers. The firing arc on Tyken's Rift, for instance. Or Viral Matrix.

Short of being the mythical "I Win Button" that we all fear, it's not going to mesh well with a cruiser. Because it's firing arc is too restrictive. Because of how the mechanics of the game work.

The only way they can make it work is if they give it a Turret's firing arc. But then ... it's a turret. Which means it's damage is ... stinky.

[Archived Post]

An us vs. them mentality is almost never a good idea. Rushed mmos that instantly lose their subscriber bases are, amazingly, less productive than ones that keep their sub bases. No mmo ever has gone into production witth the mindset of "We'll get a bunch of money on the box sales to cover our losses and then hope that we keep enough subs to keep the servers up".

The developers want this game to be as good as we do. You think they don't play games? There are a few people there who I know love Mass Effect 2, they've played WoW and other AAA MMOs. If anything it should be us and the developers against Atari. But then it might not even be their fault because they're doing really badly right now and they need every last bit of cash they can get, Atari made some bad choices and now STO is paying for them.I call BS. Sorry, but I have to.

I think that "We'll rush the game out, deceive people and be extremely secretive all through the development cycle, limit the amount of people that will participate in the betas so the word doesn't spread too fast about just how little is there, get a bunch of money on the box sales and life time subscriptions to cover our development costs, and then try and keep enough subs to make a profit" is what both Cryptic and Atari were thinking all along.

I think the only reason we're seeing any new content at all after release is because of the severe subscription drop off that happened almost immediately once people saw what a shoddy rushed out job they'd done, that they're in danger of not making the revenue quota that gets them their 20 million plus bonus, and they're scrambling to retain the few monthly subscribers they have left and maybe get some back.

I've become convinced that both Cryptic and Atari are equally to blame for this mess that is STO. Cryptic is actually probably more to blame. They were touting this rushed development cycle long before Atari was in the picture.

[Archived Post]

I might be speculating about some things. But I am sure of others.

A phaser lance, a phaser cannon, whatever it is ... will have a limited firing arc. Because those things do in gameplay mechanics. You see it with the weapons. But you also see it with the firing arc on things like science powers. The firing arc on Tyken's Rift, for instance. Or Viral Matrix.

Short of being the mythical "I Win Button" that we all fear, it's not going to mesh well with a cruiser. Because it's firing arc is too restrictive. Because of how the mechanics of the game work.

The only way they can make it work is if they give it a Turret's firing arc. But then ... it's a turret. Which means it's damage is ... stinky.

Why are you going to all the effort to insist that it's going to be an inferior gameplay choice? It shouldn't be. It should be a balanced and useful gameplay choice that is available through playing the game if it exists at all. It's the same reason the drop turret from Steam and the damage-to-EPS converter from D2d anger me - these are game mechanics that could enrich and diversify the gameplay experience (and maybe even retain subscriptions by giving people more options to mess with trying) but they're relegated to silly minor gimmicks.

[Archived Post]

I call BS. Sorry, but I have to.

I think that "We'll rush the game out, deceive people and be extremely secretive all through the development cycle, limit the amount of people that will participate in the betas so the word doesn't spread too fast about just how little is there, get a bunch of money on the box sales and life time subscriptions to cover our development costs, and then try and keep enough subs to make a profit" is what both Cryptic and Atari were thinking all along.

I think the only reason we're seeing any new content at all after release is because of the severe subscription drop off that happened almost immediately once people saw what a shoddy rushed out job they'd done, that they're in danger of not making the revenue quota that gets them their 20 million plus bonus, and they're scrambling to retain the few monthly subscribers they have left and maybe get some back.

I've become convinced that both Cryptic and Atari are equally to blame for this mess that is STO. Cryptic is actually probably more to blame. They were touting this rushed development cycle long before Atari was in the picture.

Read the following carefully:

Unfortunately this is all speculation, but there is the possibility that you may be right. From what I understand, once Cryptic received the rights to the IP, it was a time that wasn't so fabulous for them. Marvel (or DC) comics had pulled out from the super heroes project and they were likely hurting for money at the time.

Hence, the hunt for investors, publishers, and generally any avenue which would help keep them afloat. If you've read their branding... Cryptic has tried to market themselves as "MMO veterans, with a proven technology to cut down on resource cost and development time, in order to capitalize on a streamlined MMO development philosophy and process". That isn't a direct quote. They wanted to sell themselves as a company that can create MMO's quickly and with far less reduced cost than is typical.

In comes Atari... known for fledgling finances/deficets in their fiscal reports. They see Cryptic as a cost efficient way to enter the lucrative MMO market. UNFORTUNATELY, there is a "contractual agreement" in place for the Star Trek IP, either imposed by CBS or Atari... no one is clear on this point. I would venture to say that it isn't too far from the truth to contend that it was Atari who imposed the contractual agreement, for most of us are aware of the purported $20million bonus that Cryptic would get if they completed STO within the first quarter of 2010 (or something like that, details hazy, forgive me), and to reach certain undisclosed sales goals.

The scenario which I feel is likely... is that Atari sets certain sales and profit goals for Cryptic. But it is up to Cryptic to implement actionables which reach these goals. It is Atari's fault for trying to bleed STO to death for the sake of profit, while it is Cryptic's fault for damaging STO and its community by going about it in all the wrong ways.

Bottomline, poor STO was stuck between a rock and a hard place "from day one" LOL. Sorry, I normally don't do that, but consider it an inside joke ;-) If I'm wrong, by all means correct me fellow forum goers, or Cryptic staff.

[Archived Post]

Mirror unis for all :O

[Archived Post]

I think people who don't care about STO don't bother coming to the forums to complain.
So Cryptic should just think of all the complaints as tough love.

We love you Cryptic, but we're not afraid to smack you a couple of times if you get outta line! :D

[Archived Post]

*snip for room.[/B]

You're right and wrong at sort of the same time. Smaller companies like Cryptic and Netdevil are moving to the two year development time frame due to the fact that there is little investment capital being invested in longer development times. Take TOR for example, it has already cost EA a great deal of money to invest in Bioware's TOR. So much so, they have canceled some projects in order to devote more money to TOR. In return the minimum to break even for EA and Bioware is a million subs.

So what Cryptic has done, and after talking to some of the devs and others I am almost certain of this. Is to take a skeleton frame work of a MMO get it out the door and then use input from the community to flesh it out. Netdevil is using the same process, albeit a little different in Jumpscape I believe. At least according to the information from the 2009 Game Developers Conference.


Now add in Atari, who is infamous for making bad marketing decisions (Ghostbusters PC) and the fact that Atari is hurting for cash and you see the origins of the situation.

[Archived Post]

Problem is: Normally only people who want to vent, rant, or guys in their break at work visit the forum. They let go of their anger, and toss around some unfriendly words and harsh critic , but everythings well under control.

STO itself isn't so bad. And the Referral thing isn't that bad either. The main problem is the lack of content. People are bored. And instead of spending time IN THE GAME, they spend time in the forums. We should all be playing, not posting stuff.

The bored masses read the forums... and then it gets to them. Perfectly peaceful people looking for answers are only confronted with complaints in the forum. And in their state of apathy... they adopt the perspectives of the ranters... and start to agree, to find more and more stuff to be upset about. Every complaint in this forum becomes THEIR problem too, even if they didn't even notice it themselves.

Detach yourselves from other peoples opinions and angers. Realize how the game was really for you. Where you that upset before you read all of this? Play for some time. If it's not for you, take a break. DON'T read the forums. Just do something else. Wait for the next patch.

It might be slow, but this game IS getting better. No one wants to be upset. So just. Don't. Be.

[Archived Post]

Well, unlike a lot of games, at least complaining works here. We know it does because we've seen things change in response to our "forum riots" as one dev put it.

The KDF is getting PvE content only because we rioted on the forums about it. If I remember right, Zinc's remark was something like, "They want Klingon PvE content, who knew?" So as much as the dev-a$$-kissers and yes men might complain about it, Cryptic has shown us that rioting on their forums IS the correct way to go about affecting change. Because it's what works.

If Cryptic doesn't want us rioting on their forums then they need to stop giving in to the rioters and start banning them. Since that's unlikely to happen, then the Cryptic devs need to start acting like adults. They need to quit posting on the forum about how mean the forum meanies are to them, they need to grow up and get over it and move on and do their jobs. Just like real grownup adult type people.

The fact is that STO doesn't have enough content, much of the content that it does have is 'madlib' trash, and the sandbox elements are too few and too limited to keep people's interest for any length of time. If the Season 2 update is anywhere near as big as some of the devs are trying to hint that it is, then STO may finally become a full-fledged MMO. Until then, the Cryptic devs and their forum yes men are going to have to learn with the forum negativity, because at this point it's all that STO and Cryptic deserves.

[Archived Post]

Well, unlike a lot of games, at least complaining works here. We know it does because we've seen things change in response to our "forum riots" as one dev put it.

The KDF is getting PvE content only because we rioted on the forums about it. If I remember right, Zinc's remark was something like, "They want Klingon PvE content, who knew?" So as much as the dev-a$$-kissers and yes men might complain about it, Cryptic has shown us that rioting on their forums IS the correct way to go about affecting change. Because it's what works.

If Cryptic doesn't want us rioting on their forums then they need to stop giving in to the rioters and start banning them. Since that's unlikely to happen, then the Cryptic devs need to start acting like adults. They need to quit posting on the forum about how mean the forum meanies are to them, they need to grow up and get over it and move on and do their jobs. Just like real grownup adult type people.

The fact is that STO doesn't have enough content, much of the content that it does have is 'madlib' trash, and the sandbox elements are too few and too limited to keep people's interest for any length of time. If the Season 2 update is anywhere near as big as some of the devs are trying to hint that it is, then STO may finally become a full-fledged MMO. Until then, the Cryptic devs and their forum yes men are going to have to learn with the forum negativity, because at this point it's all that STO and Cryptic deserves.
I am... A-MAZED.

Peregrine... I am almost certain, that your posts have more bite than mine now! Becareful, and I mean that sincerely. There is a perceptible move towards silencing, censoring, and discriminating against people who are the least bit critical (even those who are respected here)... and this is not paranoia speaking... these words are coming from the fingers of a very reasonable and level headed individual! If only I could spill the specifics, but we know what would transpire if that were to happen.

In terms of what you say about season 2, and "if its being anywhere as near as big as they are trying to hint that it is..." well... remember how they hyped up the genesis engine, and how they used the "45 day patch" as a marketing tactic. Grain of salt, and "wait and see" is all I have to say.

But as I say again... YIKES! :eek::eek: ;) Regardless, I for one agree with your points.

[Archived Post]

Read the following carefully:

In comes Atari... known for fledgling finances/deficets in their fiscal reports. They see Cryptic as a cost efficient way to enter the lucrative MMO market. UNFORTUNATELY, there is a "contractual agreement" in place for the Star Trek IP, either imposed by CBS or Atari... no one is clear on this point. I would venture to say that it isn't too far from the truth to contend that it was Atari who imposed the contractual agreement, for most of us are aware of the purported $20million bonus that Cryptic would get if they completed STO within the first quarter of 2010 (or something like that, details hazy, forgive me), and to reach certain undisclosed sales goals.


WARNING: Wall of Text (sorry). Important points highlighted.

Here's a link to the official Atari Memo on acquiring Cryptic. (http://corporate.atari.com/event/120909_Cryptic_PR_final_GB_def.pdf)

Search for "bonus" which appears on page 2. The bonus is actually for out performing revenue targets for CO and STO combined. There's two payout periods, the first scheduled for August of this year. The bonus may have something to do with the contractual launch date but I think it's more than likely CBS since they put up with Perpetual's vaporware for so long.

You're right that Atari acquired Cryptic specifically for their ability to quickly develop a MMO with a reduced budget and reduced resources. Cryptic uses that and their proprietary game engine which facilitates this to market themselves. Jack Emmert also mentioned how quickly STO would be finished in Vegas 2008.

There's nothing really wrong with this business wise... *if* that model fit the demand. What went wrong is CBS, Atari and Cryptic underestimated the response to STO. This is proven during Closed Beta where they simply were overwhelmed by the numbers of people who had access. Plans were changed for CB purchasers so the servers wouldn't be overloaded. Then at open beta the test servers had to be converted into live servers, etc. We know the story.

Cryptic is now the little engine that could. I don't believe they are evil people who don't care about Star Trek and who just want to grab our money so they can go onto their next MMO. They were faced with a difficult situation given their size, the overwhelming demand and the grand scope of the Star Trek IP.

They had to launch under contractual agreement. Simply put... They bit off more than they could chew. It explains everything from no TOS mini skirt at launch to an undone Klingon faction. Everything people have been ranting and raving for they want to do but didn't have the time & resources for.

This "minimal resource required" business model continues. Cryptic has lost plenty of subs (some claim a hemorrhage) over them not being able to meet player demands for features and content. I think it's maybe not a hemorrhage but certainly more than that "it's normal for MMOs to loose subs after launch" argument.

I believe they are doing their very best but most everything has to be implemented on a triage basis. I think they are honestly busting their nuggets not only for us players but also so they can show Atari and CBS that they are up to this challenge. If people understand this maybe they would be more understanding.

That being said, I still understand people who are upset about STO. After all, corners were cut to get the game launched. Advertised features are still not available or were made available much later than anticipated. The irate customer is not at fault here. Some understanding should be given to that angry person too, especially those who are staying to fight for the features they want.

[Archived Post]

Mirror unis for all :O

If I could I would give you Mirror uni's just so you'd stop posting that in every thread on the damn forums! :p

[Archived Post]

WARNING: Wall of Text (sorry). Important points highlighted.

Here's a link to the official Atari Memo on acquiring Cryptic. (http://corporate.atari.com/event/120909_Cryptic_PR_final_GB_def.pdf)

Search for "bonus" which appears on page 2. The bonus is actually for out performing revenue targets for CO and STO combined. There's two payout periods, the first scheduled for August of this year. The bonus may have something to do with the contractual launch date but I think it's more than likely CBS since they put up with Perpetual's vaporware for so long.

You're right that Atari acquired Cryptic specifically for their ability to quickly develop a MMO with a reduced budget and reduced resources. Cryptic uses that and their proprietary game engine which facilitates this to market themselves. Jack Emmert also mentioned how quickly STO would be finished in Vegas 2008.

There's nothing really wrong with this business wise... *if* that model fit the demand. What went wrong is CBS, Atari and Cryptic underestimated the response to STO. This is proven during Closed Beta where they simply were overwhelmed by the numbers of people who had access. Plans were changed for CB purchasers so the servers wouldn't be overloaded. Then at open beta the test servers had to be converted into live servers, etc. We know the story.

Cryptic is now the little engine that could. I don't believe they are evil people who don't care about Star Trek and who just want to grab our money so they can go onto their next MMO. They were faced with a difficult situation given their size, the overwhelming demand and the grand scope of the Star Trek IP.

They had to launch under contractual agreement. Simply put... They bit off more than they could chew. It explains everything from no TOS mini skirt at launch to an undone Klingon faction. Everything people have been ranting and raving for they want to do but didn't have the time & resources for.

This "minimal resource required" business model continues. Cryptic has lost plenty of subs (some claim a hemorrhage) over them not being able to meet player demands for features and content. I think it's maybe not a hemorrhage but certainly more than that "it's normal for MMOs to loose subs after launch" argument.

I believe they are doing their very best but most everything has to be implemented on a triage basis. I think they are honestly busting their nuggets not only for us players but also so they can show Atari and CBS that they are up to this challenge. If people understand this maybe they would be more understanding.

That being said, I still understand people who are upset about STO. After all, corners were cut to get the game launched. Advertised features are still not available or were made available much later than anticipated. The irate customer is not at fault here. Some understanding should be given to that angry person too, especially those who are staying to fight for the features they want.

Can I nominate you as the lead voice of reason?

[Archived Post]

To the OP. It depends on what the too far is. I think if, as a consumer of this product, you don't like what they're doing with it... yes you have a right to speak up about it. However, I also don't think that gives you the right to... cut them down and make'em feel like they've been drug through the mud. It is a fine line sometimes since often in mmo communities items like this are passionately discussed.

Hell, I'd say sometimes we get borderline fanatical about our games. Gamers that is I guess I'm saying. Speaking of bad ideas dooming an mmo as if it were our best friend... or only friend we have.

I'd like to think the above is just an exaggeration but sometimes even I have to stand back after a post and say to myself... damn... did I really put that much thought into a video game debate?

I guess for me, with 7 years of mmo play under my belt now, I think I have to look back on a good piece of Army Values I remember. Respect: Treat people as they should be treated. I think we forget that sometimes and do, indeed, make this or that person feel pretty crappy at their job. We can disagree and keep it respectful at the same time.

Maybe we can look at Wil Wheaton's PAX speech from awhile back as the perfect example: "Don't be a *edit*!" :cool:

If you think you've gone too far... and you know if you have... just chill for a bit. On the flip side of things I'm sure the Cryptic Team is quite open to criticisms as long as we attempt to keep it respectful. Even if that incurs just saying, "I'm angry about this."

[Archived Post]

We (the Forums) will stop complaining when they (CBS/Atari/Cryptic) stop giving us reason to.

Every "****gate" had a reason and they just keep going on throwing the next slap in our Faces.

You know the anger behind those "****gates" are not forgotten, they STACK!

It's as simple as that.



***

What i expected from the C-Store was that i get Canon Ships there, Canon Uniforms and everything Cryptic created just goes in the game for *free* (which means for the expensive monthly fee).

But Reality is, on the C-Store goes mostly Cryptic designed stuff (Ships + Bridges) and Canon stuff... which is the only reason i want to play a Star Trek Game get's thrown out as extras that are UBER HARD to get.
I did not get the Constitution Class... and i friggen hate Gamestop.
I'm still ****ed because of this.
Now the Galaxy-X.... which is a pyramid System so it is IMPOSSIBLE for everyone to get it.

by now i only think, what will be next?


So... did we go to far or did they go to far?

[Archived Post]

if it walks like a duck and quaks like a duck its a duck.....just like a poster before, a turd is a turd no matter what you do to it..

Cryptic made there bed now they have to lay in it.....they new well before hand this was a ship that was wanted for a lonf time from lots of players.

this item should have been in the VET rewards for like day 300....that would make subscribers stay not get new players in for 1-2 months then the new players go ohhh look no content...and then cancel!

[Archived Post]

Ok, for some I think there is a missed point.

I am not saying don't be angry. I am not saying don't voice your opinions. All I was getting at was maybe we should stop and think what negative effects we are having. If you can answer that and have no problem with the answer, then by all means, continue. I am not trying to convince anyone to stop, only to pause and make sure we are correct in what we are doing as a community.

[Archived Post]

Ok, for some I think there is a missed point.

I am not saying don't be angry. I am not saying don't voice your opinions. All I was getting at was maybe we should stop and think what negative effects we are having. If you can answer that and have no problem with the answer, then by all means, continue. I am not trying to convince anyone to stop, only to pause and make sure we are correct in what we are doing as a community.

Well... I'm really hard-pressed to believe that being vocal is a bad thing unless you're someone like Hagon. Choosing not to be vocal, especially in response to claims that you're the 'vocal minority' (not being made here, I know, but it's a big issue Out There) just means the other vocal people get heard and you don't. Sometimes that ends up in nobody getting heard in the cacophony, but then at least you can say you tried. There is probably a point of going too far somewhere, and I'd say something like 'hand it to another developer' probably is past that point because, y'know, there's exactly nothing productive it can do here.

As kind of an aside, I'm actually amazed that I don't have a single infraction point yet given my tendency to respond explosively to undesired news at times.

[Archived Post]

Speaking as someone who's worked retail, I can tell you that there is a fine line between being a customer with a complaint, and a screaming, entitled lunatic who treats each and every inconvenience like the Battle of Armageddon and who actively works to prevent people from addressing his complaint by being so loud and demanding.

I'm by no means capable of pointing out where that line is for this community, but I think it may have been crossed once or twice.

[Archived Post]

Ok, for some I think there is a missed point.

I am not saying don't be angry. I am not saying don't voice your opinions. All I was getting at was maybe we should stop and think what negative effects we are having. If you can answer that and have no problem with the answer, then by all means, continue. I am not trying to convince anyone to stop, only to pause and make sure we are correct in what we are doing as a community.

I actually agree, we have the potential to take things to far on these forums. Do I think we did in this instance? A bit. Everyone had a reason to be angry. And we went hog wild. Not only did we bash Cryptic, we bash on each other, and quite often and vehemently. I don't think it did any overall harm, but as a forum community we need to be careful how far we take things. In this instance, it was a very rare ship offered for an excessive amount of work. It was never said it wouldn't be offered at a later date through the C-Store or any other means, just initially it was going to be through refer-a-friend. We jumped the gun before al the details of the ship itself were even released. We over reacted at Cryptic and amongst ourselves, and I am just as guilty.

The real danger we face in doing things like this is that for forum mods and devs will quit coming here and giving us updates. Same thing happened in WoW right after release. Eyonix and Caydiem were on the forums pretty regularly discussing bugs (lots of them), what was in the works, and fixes for stuff like class balance. They got met with rage and venom and posted much less. The forum ban hammer came out in force for a few weeks. Communication basically shut down between Blizzard and the forum community. This is something we don't want, especially since Cryptic is so good about giving us info on a regular basis.

There will be instances where our rage is justified. Personally, I don't believe this was one of them.

[Archived Post]

Speaking as someone who's worked retail, I can tell you that there is a fine line between being a customer with a complaint, and a screaming, entitled lunatic who treats each and every inconvenience like the Battle of Armageddon and who actively works to prevent people from addressing his complaint by being so loud and demanding.

I'm by no means capable of pointing out where that line is for this community, but I think it may have been crossed once or twice.

I am afraid you are wrong on all accounts here. Reading a harsh message on the forum is hardly tough or demanding from a customer service perspective. I have Blue Danube playing while I nerdrage and it works wonders. Point is they dont read anything the have not provoked first. From empty promises to outright money grabs, their response and handle of those complaints, is what escalated the situation to lunatic levels.

If you are working for retail (not being sarcastic just invoking your experience here)l then you know that you need to be seen considering the complaint from your customers, and try to offer options and compromises to rectify the situation. From a burger joint that will offer you a free drink to a corporation that will try to settle its way out, the customer is NEVER ignored and termed a rioter in a patronising attempt to downplay any concerns raised.

Cryptic has been acting like a dictaroship, distracting public opinion, censoring those with strong indications of their claims and outright allow Devs to be make sarcastic comments that devaluate anything that does not agree with them by dismissing them as whine. I am not oblivious that other games had similar issues. I played WOW and other games for a VERY long time and have been quite active on forums. This situation is an absolute first. Not because of the nature of the complaints, but the awful way the were handled.

There is still good in them for sure. rom the engineering reports to the appearance of GM in game to chat to (which I was very impressed with) but Darth Cryptic needs to throw the Atari Emperor down the shaft already and make them see that the game will be succesful if they try LESS to sell and more to improve on it. At this point my sub gives me nothing unless I want to pay extra to try a different skin which will add another full 5min to my already quick daily runs before I log back out.

[Archived Post]

Again, I hope that Cryptic realizes that no one would bother posting, or making long-winded tirades if they didn't have feelings for STO.

Most of the people who're angry are fans who feel they've been cheated out of the Star Trek experience they dreamed of. Fact is that no matter what Star Trek Online was, people were always going to be upset about it, because nothing can ever match up to what you dream of.

I just hope that Cryptic keeps on keeping on, because as much as there is wrong with STO, it's the only Star Trek MMO we've got. Chances are that it will forever be the only one we've got, and that is something that I think is worth fighting for.

So no, don't stop complaining, but maybe take a breather once in a while to compliment Cryptic on something they've done that you do like.

[Archived Post]

I am not suggesting anything of the sort. I am only asking that we stop and look at the situation.

Situation: the U.S.S. STO launched on one quarter impulse power and has been sputtering along at roughly that same speed every since. Warp drive is offline, sensors are offline, shields are maxed out at 3.2%, the transporters produce evil twins of anyone trying to use them, and the only thing the replicators can replicate is low-fat gagh.

Chief Engineer: Maybe if we fix the turbolift doors--

Captain: Belay that! Let's add racing stripes! Oh, and hang some raccoon tails from the deflector dish!

Crew: Mutiny! Mutiny! Mutiny! Abandon ship! (Except for Crewman Green, who is excited about the new salt shakers promised in the next refit.)

Starfleet: We do NOT approve of those salt shakers.

[Archived Post]

Cryptic has been acting like a dictaroship....

I stopped reading right there. Cryptic Studios is a business, not a government. The comparison to a dictatorship does not stand for that one simple reason.

[Archived Post]

I personally think we all need to check in the Che' Nuts House for even being bothered by this RAF promotion.
If it never really caught on in popularity then the "X"class galaxy would eventually make it to the C-store anyways and all the complaining will be for nothing but to hear our gums flaps and the important sounds of our voices.

[Archived Post]

I stopped reading right there. Cryptic Studios is a business, not a government. The comparison to a dictatorship does not stand for that one simple reason.

That is equally your problem and Cryptics. You do not read in full.

[Archived Post]

I personally think we all need to check in the Che' Nuts House for even being bothered by this RAF promotion.
If it never really caught on in popularity then the "X"class galaxy would eventually make it to the C-store anyways and all the complaining will be for nothing but to hear our gums flaps and the important sounds of our voices.

They could offer 2k Cryptic points per referred individual, an IRL pony with care and feeding, and the Galaxy-X skin for all I care. It's the unique mechanical aspects being attributed to the ship that bother me from a broad perspective on the future of the game.

[Archived Post]

I agree with you to a point. I agree we should not be quiet when there is an issue that effects us. I am not faulting us for being upset. Like Dublin said, they knew many people wanted that ship. Which, I feel is the reason they put it in the referral program. Logically it makes sense. I don't necessarily like it too much but I can see the reasoning.

However, we should consider that there is the possibility that there are those on the other side who don't like the situation either.

Quite frankly, I doubt I could care less what the staff at Cryptic wants or how they feel about any of the poor choices they have made as a company. I'm the customer. I pay. I'm right. Period.

[Archived Post]

Situation: the U.S.S. STO launched on one quarter impulse power and has been sputtering along at roughly that same speed every since. Warp drive is offline, sensors are offline, shields are maxed out at 3.2%, the transporters produce evil twins of anyone trying to use them, and the only thing the replicators can replicate is low-fat gagh.

Chief Engineer: Maybe if we fix the turbolift doors--

Captain: Belay that! Let's add racing stripes! Oh, and hang some raccoon tails from the deflector dish!

Crew: Mutiny! Mutiny! Mutiny! Abandon ship! (Except for Crewman Green, who is excited about the new salt shakers promised in the next refit.)

Starfleet: We do NOT approve of those salt shakers.

LOL! Hmm I think this might be my new signature.

[Archived Post]

I personally think we all need to check in the Che' Nuts House for even being bothered by this RAF promotion.
If it never really caught on in popularity then the "X"class galaxy would eventually make it to the C-store anyways and all the complaining will be for nothing but to hear our gums flaps and the important sounds of our voices.

Why should we have to pay Cryptic another $5.00 or $10.00 or whatever to be able to buy a ship that gives us an advantage over other players in-game when we've already bought the box and already pay sub fees?

[Archived Post]

Why should we have to pay Cryptic another $5.00 or $10.00 or whatever to be able to buy a ship that gives us an advantage over other players in-game when we've already bought the box and already pay sub fees?

Because Atari desperately wants to be the first company that pulls off an MMO that combines both the pay-for-powers cash store and subscription model to maximize profit made from chumps.

[Archived Post]

That is equally your problem and Cryptics. You do not read in full.

I actually did read the whole post, I just simply stated that I stop reading there because your argument is flawed and as such the rest of your post doesn't matter or make sense because of it. I posted out why it was flawed.

[Archived Post]

I actually did read the whole post, I just simply stated that I stop reading there because your argument is flawed and as such the rest of your post doesn't matter or make sense because of it. I posted out why it was flawed.

If that was your reason the you did not readi t. You simply disagree and thats that really. You give no real reason. you play with words to justify it. Listen to the music not the song comes to mind.

[Archived Post]

A couple thoughts in response to the OP:

1) This forum isnt very different than most MMO forums I've played, so whatever problem you think exists is pretty universal

2) The uproars that have happened here have been in response to things Cryptic did. Granted, they may have been a bit overboard in some cases, but the point is that they were not unprovoked.

I hate to say it, but launching a game before its ready(aka before one of the factions has PvE, before there is any end game content, with a crappy crafting system, etc) is going to create a negative atmosphere on the forums.

[Archived Post]

If that was your reason the you did not readi t. You simply disagree and thats that really. You give no real reason. you play with words to justify it. Listen to the music not the song comes to mind.

The fact of the matter is that Cryptic is not a government, and comparing them to one simply does not work. Cryptic is a business, they try to please their customers as much as they can, and seriously they have gone far farther than any other MMO company I have seen with trying to make their customers happy, but in the end they are trying to make money not control everyone's life. Cryptic is a business, not a communist government for that reason. They are in it to make a profit. That isn't me playing with words trying to justify what I am saying, that is fact.

[Archived Post]

The fact of the matter is that Cryptic is not a government, and comparing them to one simply does not work. Cryptic is a business, they try to please their customers as much as they can, and seriously they have gone far farther than any other MMO company I have seen with trying to make their customers happy, but in the end they are trying to make money not control everyone's life. Cryptic is a business, not a communist government for that reason. They are in it to make a profit.

There's such a thing as a company's loyalty to its customers. If the customer perceives that the company cares about their business, they're probably going to get more business in a positive manner. If the customers believe that the company cares about what's in their wallet and nothing else, they're not generating good will and they're only thinking very short-term.

[Archived Post]

There's such a thing as a company's loyalty to its customers. If the customer perceives that the company cares about their business, they're probably going to get more business in a positive manner. If the customers believe that the company cares about what's in their wallet and nothing else, they're not generating good will and they're only thinking very short-term.

That is true, and on the whole, outside of this one instance I still think Cryptic cares about it's customers and business. They just sometimes have to make the decisions that are in the best interests of the company and sometimes those don't always add up with what the community wants. It happens.

[Archived Post]

To OP, I think you're right. To the first response, what a tool. Do you really think that it's going to make a difference? All you're doing by continuing to "fight" after it's been said by the CEO that it's staying is opening yourself up to infractions and - by extension - bans, which you'll make the claim were unnecessary and you'll say more things opening yourself up, too.

If you really want to play the victim, go ahead, but it will serve no purpose outside of making yourself look like a tool.

[Archived Post]

That is true, and on the whole, outside of this one instance I still think Cryptic cares about it's customers and business. They just sometimes have to make the decisions that are in the best interests of the company and sometimes those don't always add up with what the community wants. It happens.

1. Launching without being ready

2. The last-minute skill tree switcharoonie

3. The decision to stop refunding LTS's before the 30 days that they offered was up

4. Getting rid of their whole billing/customer service offerings

5. Just how many weeks DOES it take to get a response to a help or customer service ticket anyway?

6. "Some of you people just don't get it"

7. We'd love to put X,Y,and Z things that our customers really want in the game...some day.

8. "you people are starting riots on our forums".

9. Updating the cash shop instead of fixing the game

10. That whole sale with the 60 or 90 days that they tried to go back on and got busted

Do tell me, which of these things indicates that Cryptic gives a flying flip about their customers?

[Archived Post]

To OP, I think you're right. To the first response, what a tool. Do you really think that it's going to make a difference? All you're doing by continuing to "fight" after it's been said by the CEO that it's staying is opening yourself up to infractions and - by extension - bans, which you'll make the claim were unnecessary and you'll say more things opening yourself up, too.

If you really want to play the victim, go ahead, but it will serve no purpose outside of making yourself look like a tool.

While I dont disagree with what your saying, the way you choose to say it has ironically opened yourself up for the same thing.

[Archived Post]

Welcome to the forums. We always go too far. Like TNT, We Know Drama. ;)

.....DOINK......doink.......

[Archived Post]

While I dont disagree with what your saying, the way you choose to say it has ironically opened yourself up for the same thing.

At this point? Meh.

[Archived Post]

Why are you going to all the effort to insist that it's going to be an inferior gameplay choice?

Because your complaint is based on the faulty premise that this thing is going to be good. And it isn't.

[Archived Post]

And if it is good, we can always nerf it :)

[Archived Post]

Well... I'm really hard-pressed to believe that being vocal is a bad thing unless you're someone like ...

But I think this post was designed because there are someone's like ...

(I don't want to name names, as that's not a good thing to do. But, I am trying to point out that Atomic made this post as a reaction to exactly what you just mentioned. The "Someones Like" if you will).

[Archived Post]

But I think this post was designed because there are someone's like ...

(I don't want to name names, as that's not a good thing to do. But, I am trying to point out that Atomic made this post as a reaction to exactly what you just mentioned. The "Someones Like" if you will).

BINGO!


Exactly.

[Archived Post]

WARNING: Wall of Text (sorry). Important points highlighted.

Here's a link to the official Atari Memo on acquiring Cryptic. (http://corporate.atari.com/event/120909_Cryptic_PR_final_GB_def.pdf)

Search for "bonus" which appears on page 2. The bonus is actually for out performing revenue targets for CO and STO combined. There's two payout periods, the first scheduled for August of this year. The bonus may have something to do with the contractual launch date but I think it's more than likely CBS since they put up with Perpetual's vaporware for so long.

You're right that Atari acquired Cryptic specifically for their ability to quickly develop a MMO with a reduced budget and reduced resources. Cryptic uses that and their proprietary game engine which facilitates this to market themselves. Jack Emmert also mentioned how quickly STO would be finished in Vegas 2008.

There's nothing really wrong with this business wise... *if* that model fit the demand. What went wrong is CBS, Atari and Cryptic underestimated the response to STO. This is proven during Closed Beta where they simply were overwhelmed by the numbers of people who had access. Plans were changed for CB purchasers so the servers wouldn't be overloaded. Then at open beta the test servers had to be converted into live servers, etc. We know the story.

Cryptic is now the little engine that could. I don't believe they are evil people who don't care about Star Trek and who just want to grab our money so they can go onto their next MMO. They were faced with a difficult situation given their size, the overwhelming demand and the grand scope of the Star Trek IP.

They had to launch under contractual agreement. Simply put... They bit off more than they could chew. It explains everything from no TOS mini skirt at launch to an undone Klingon faction. Everything people have been ranting and raving for they want to do but didn't have the time & resources for.

This "minimal resource required" business model continues. Cryptic has lost plenty of subs (some claim a hemorrhage) over them not being able to meet player demands for features and content. I think it's maybe not a hemorrhage but certainly more than that "it's normal for MMOs to loose subs after launch" argument.

I believe they are doing their very best but most everything has to be implemented on a triage basis. I think they are honestly busting their nuggets not only for us players but also so they can show Atari and CBS that they are up to this challenge. If people understand this maybe they would be more understanding.

That being said, I still understand people who are upset about STO. After all, corners were cut to get the game launched. Advertised features are still not available or were made available much later than anticipated. The irate customer is not at fault here. Some understanding should be given to that angry person too, especially those who are staying to fight for the features they want.

I'm quoting in full your response for truth. Firstly, THANK you for digging up that article. I would have sworn that there was another such location such as their fiscal statement that confirmed that the targets had to be met within a given amount of time, but I am not definitely sure.

Regardless, your assessment was outstanding given the consideration and factors circumstances you put forth. Very well done. You are right, they bit off far more than they could chew. Side note, I just looked at my battery life, and I still have 5 hours left... GREAT computer woot. Anyway, continuing...

The better thing for *us* would have been for Cryptic to realize that this would be far too much for them to handle. But let's be honest... even if I ran a small studio, and I somehow winding up getting the rights to the game, there is no WAY I would want to give it up selflessly even if I knew someone else could make it better.

I think it might be a good idea for the lot of us who are dissatisfied with this game to be "okay" with taking a break. Stepping away and coming back when things are more up to par. I say this specifically relating to disgruntled lifetime subscribers. Unfortunately... it may be the case, that Cryptic at the very least needs the current base of monthly subscribers to sustain themselves. What with settling at 100k subscribers with the last official announcement, and with a continued perceivable loss of game population, I'd say that it might be reasonable to assume that we have already sunk below their "minimum target population".

This boils down to people paying the "bare minimum" to sustain this game. That means no surplus for a growing development team and extra grand features on the horizon. People will have to make a decision. They need to decide whether they are going to stick it out and hope that Cryptic delivers on their word.... or simply take their business elsewhere and not look back.

The other thing is...people (including myself) need to realize this magical metamorphosis isn't going to happen over night. In fact, it may take a LONG time, provided that the project survives this long.

This all could be simple a series of unfortunate events. One thing that I do want to specifically counter, or at least bring up for consideration Mirror-Master is that you do not necessarily see them as evil money grabbing schemers. To be honest, I don't know what to think.

Given their propensity to fumble in fiascos and cook up debacles seemingly left and right, I wonder at their business management and marketing side. Are people so easily worked up because of the overall disappointment with the game (this can't be so, because I'm seeing more and more "fanboys" turn into skeptics. they STARted loving Cryptic and STO), or it because they really lack wisdom in their planning and communications? I've stated before, they need to either hire someone, or fire someone to fix this problem (although, the team seems pretty thin (http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?p=2641045) at the moment anyway)

And with regards specifically with people's perception of them...well... the C-Store is starting to become a point of contention for me. And as many people have echoed... it seems that QUITE a lot of what is getting designed and developed ends up as a locked away goodie.

All in all, I wish things were better.

[Archived Post]

Because your complaint is based on the faulty premise that this thing is going to be good. And it isn't.

That's not what my complaint is based on, and your speculation that it will be inferior is just as speculative as saying that it will be balanced or that it will uberpwn everything.

[Archived Post]

That's not what my complaint is based on, and your speculation that it will be inferior is just as speculative as saying that it will be balanced or that it will uberpwn everything.

My speculation is based on in game mechanics. And on in-game examples of other items of that nature.

Yours is based on what the thing did in a show.

Here's a great example. The Red Matter device. It was so powerful in the Abrams film it helped destroy Vulcan.

In this game?

Yeah ... it falls a tad short of that.

[Archived Post]

DISCLAIMER: This is not a flame bait thread. So if possible please limit responses to a constructive analysis of the post and or information/opinions of all posters.


I got to looking back at Dstahl's posts from today and yesterday in this section and I got the feeling that he was conveying a "vibe" if you will. One akin to a candy sweet tart. While some of his posts had a hint of comedic intent, the almost felt like they were flavored with a tad of sarcastic angst.

So, that got me to thinking that possibly with all this outpouring of anger and frustration that we have had over the RAF we might have gone a bit too far. Now, I recognize that some people don't care if we (as a community) have gone too far in our push back. Those folks aren't going to take this thread seriously anyway, I doubt.


Allow me to explain. Some of us have been here since the beginning. Yadda Yadda Yadda old timers, that sort of thing. In that time we have had Salegate. Lifergate, etc. Honestly, too many gates for me to remember them all. Some I cared about and some I didn't. Now, we have referralgate. In each case, there has been two parties, us and Cryptic/Atari. (Although I blame salegate on Atari not Cryptic). So in effect, we have created or they have created, depending on your point of view, a us verses them mentality so to speak.

I can't think of any manner is which that mentality is a good thing. I would tend to think it is actually a bad thing. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying don't tell Cryptic how you feel about a certain action or elements of gameplay etc. I am also not suggesting that we flower them with roses and hugs either. All I am saying is that after Dstahl told us he went to the CEO about this RAF program and that it wasn't going to change. Maybe, just maybe we should have accepted that we were not going to succeed in our desire to have it changed.

Personally, I don't think laying the blame on anyone is helpful in this case, as to be honest the only people who will really suffer is us the community.

Just wanted to share these thoughts with you.

I think you are entirely correct. I know that in the DP kerfluffle I didn't exactly make the best showing, and I've tried to pull back from the dramatic posts that rail at the reps. ("How's My Posting? 1-800-NOT-FUNNY.") I admit I hadn't thought that the coders and other folks there would be affected, but it does stand to reason.

To be honest, normally I would say that I couldn't care less what the people whose names end in 'C*O' think; I'm too populist that way. ^_^ But shyte rolls downhill, which means that if they get torqued from uprisings in the forums, then the middle guys get it from both ends.

Now, I am not saying we should not speak up when we see something we don't like. We always have that right as paying customers. But there are ways to express dissatisfaction without it trying to turn it into the virtual equivalent of the October Revolution. This might be something we want to work on.

[Archived Post]

That I am not sure if anyone has mentioned yet or not.

But perhaps one of the reasons why this has purportedly gone over board, is because Cryptic was decidedly silent on the issue. We seemingly raised our voices in unison... and Cryptic "supposedly being a developer who actively listens to their userbase" gave us no feedback.

Dstahl said "management is aware of this thread"... but thats it. We didn't get a "we're changing it" or "we're sticking with the plan", etc. Instead we got a "acknowledge receipt of message" (500 credits for whoever gets the reference).

I wrote a post on this subject in the past regarding different styles of developer interaction. Here is the link ::digs it out of the archives and dusts it off::

Two Kinds of Developer Relations (http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=34079).

Cryptic is cryptically somewhere "in the middle" and it isn't working out to their favor so much. Oh well, we gotta give them a break. Have a beer! (or Cosmo if you prefer).

[Archived Post]

i'd like to point out that while the forums are insanely active with rage, i tried bringing the referal program disuccsion in game, via both my factions on either side, talking in sol space dock, and qonos.... 95% of the people who replied asked #1 what's a galaxy-x, #2 we have a referal program? how does it work? and the other 5% said they didn't care either way...and 2 people that knew about it said they liked the idea and 1 person spent 3 post swear about how much of a bad idea it is...... so the results in game show a vastly different result then on the forums.. people either a) weren't overly aware of it b) didn't care either way or c) didn't care enough to voice their opinion... which just goes to show that the minority here is the forums, like all the reasonably logic people have been saying all along...
also i'd like to point out how far the game has come in 3 months, imagine how far it will be in another 3 months... give it 5 months and your friends will be begging for a referal from you, so it won't be very hard to get referals....


personally, i think the forums are just filled with people who would rather whine about the game then play
or, the few of us, who (like me ) can't play at a particular time do to w/e reason, and so instead we browse the forums ( though i find these people tend to be the logically reasonable people )

[Archived Post]

kerfluffle I.

I have just added a new word to my vocabulary. It is brilliant. Hard to find neologisms this good these days!

[Archived Post]

[COLOR="Yellow"]But perhaps one of the reasons why this has purportedly gone over board, is because Cryptic was decidedly silent on the issue. We seemingly raised our voices in unison... and Cryptic "supposedly being a developer who actively listens to their userbase" gave us no feedback.

Dstahl said "management is aware of this thread"... but thats it. We didn't get a "we're changing it" or "we're sticking with the plan", etc. Instead we got a "acknowledge receipt of message" (500 credits for whoever gets the reference).

Not correct. Dstahl said the did talk to the Powers that Be on the issue and that the offer would not be changing. He hasn't been silent at all on it.

(Edit: I'll save you the trouble of looking for it)

Well... if its any consolation... I've made a huge stink about the Galaxy X threads in internal meetings and have even talked directly to the the CEO John personally about it and for now it remains an exclusive reward for the challenging task of recruiting 5 friends.

[Archived Post]

But perhaps one of the reasons why this has purportedly gone over board, is because Cryptic was decidedly silent on the issue. We seemingly raised our voices in unison... and Cryptic "supposedly being a developer who actively listens to their userbase" gave us no feedback.

That's not always going to get results. Sometimes things are going to take place in this game that entire groups of players do not like.

[Archived Post]

too far? Not at all.

A polished turd is a polished turd and people have a right to be upset about it.
If the people who polished that turd are upset by the critics then they did not polish hard enough.

acceptance brings mediocrity. Defiance brings change.

I'm going with Zoot on this one.

Angry customers aim that anger at whoever they have access to whether they are the right ones to be angry with or not. It isn't the customers fault if its aimed at the wrong person.

The Devs/Forum jockeys should, and in most cases do, know this.

I get the feeling that the devs that regularly interact with the forum community know quite well what the problems with the game are but imagine if every time someone got all flamey at them they said it's not my fault its (insert upper management name here) fault.

They would be right out of a job pretty quickly.

The true problem is they started listening to the players. No really. Of course they probably wouldn't have made this mistake if they had finished STO prior to release but since the game started bleeding subscriptions due to the lack of content they scrambled and unfortunately focused on what the players were asking for that they could just hammer out really quickly.

There is a difference between listening to the players and letting them hijack your development schedule.

I blame Cryptic/Atari for the initial state of the game. I blame the players for the "content" released since then that the bulk of which has been useless fluff with hardly any game-play content.

[Archived Post]

Dstahl said "management is aware of this thread"... but thats it. We didn't get a "we're changing it" or "we're sticking with the plan", etc. Instead we got a "acknowledge receipt of message" (500 credits for whoever gets the reference).



"What do you hear?" ;)

[Archived Post]

My speculation is based on in game mechanics. And on in-game examples of other items of that nature.

Yours is based on what the thing did in a show.

Here's a great example. The Red Matter device. It was so powerful in the Abrams film it helped destroy Vulcan.

In this game?

Yeah ... it falls a tad short of that.

o_0

Mine is based on the statements of dstahl alone, that it will have a unique combat power. It doesn't matter how overpowered, underpowered, or sideways powered it is, as I have repeatedly explained. If the forward cannon turned out to be as powerful as demonstrated in the show, then I wouldn't be arguing that Cryptic was dishonest, I'd be arguing that they're insane.

[Archived Post]

Mine is based on the statements of dstahl alone, that it will have a unique combat power. It doesn't matter how overpowered, underpowered, or sideways powered it is, as I have repeatedly explained. If the forward cannon turned out to be as powerful as demonstrated in the show, then I wouldn't be arguing that Cryptic was dishonest, I'd be arguing that they're insane.

Unique combat power ONLY matters if it's good.

A unique piece of fecal matter is not anything anyone cares about.

When it turns out to be the handicap it is going to be ... all you're going to see is complaint threads. About how weak it is.

Because people want a big gun. And they're going to get a red matter device. My plasma shooting tactical console is utterly unique. It's also not anything I bother equipping after Lt levels because it's not powerful, and causes more trouble than it's worth.

[Archived Post]

I have just added a new word to my vocabulary. It is brilliant. Hard to find neologisms this good these days!

make sure you don't spell it incorrectly then ;) It's an old British colloquialism. kerfuffle

http://www.worldwidewords.org/weirdwords/ww-ker1.htm

[Archived Post]

I think you are right, and I've had this sneaking suspicion that things are not all rosy at the studio (in fact i heard they are not, by someone associated with them). There are in fact a lot of things I want to say, but don't for the simple consideration that they may be just as disheartened with the way things turned out as we are... but for which are beyond their control.

Not to mention the fact that there have been several high profile people who have left the company (Awen, Gozer, Daeke, Shane Hensley, and a few nameless others that have posted here and there) and some not so high profile people who have made their way to the forums to post their thoughts and how they wished things had gone differently.

There very well may be a slight sense of exhaustion on their part. As I've said before... they are forced into this position of constantly churning out light content at a fast rate because they HAVE to in order to keep the subscriber based interested. Instead of giving themselves time to breathe and a length of time to work on something grand and big on the horizon they are forced to work harder and more quickly. And for their efforst, they see a bleeding subscriber base, and a consistently unhappy forum community.

I for one will be cutting back to give them time and a break. A smart idea, or a clever one, isn't necessarily a wise idea. And I wish they would consider more carefully (or hire me, as I can work magic). While it might be wise to say to keep fighting... on the other hand I personally am getting tired. Espescially after the recent spate of being targeted and discriminated against by Phoxe... I just don't feel inclined to bring constructive ideas to the table any more.

You are reading to much into it. Most games shed developers after the game has launched. This is a problem Cryptic needs to deal with if they want to rush games and consider them done at live. They should treat their people well and keep their developers on staff for at least the first year. This goes for all MMO's where they shed people like water after a few months of launch.

Just so you know, most live game forums tend to be filled with youthful vitriol and massive angst spilled everywhere. Though I believe you knew that and were simply throwing barbs.

[Archived Post]

honestly People, Come on this early into the launch of a game is no place to be bytching. Give it up. Cryptic has done a great job. and if you had an ounce of respect for anything you would focus on that. Get over yourselves and understand that as a game grows it gets better. it does not come out perfect in the begining. Wow was deplorable when it launched graphic crashes, glitches visible in every city missions that never complted. powers that didnt work. it got better over time. same with EQ, CoH, Conan, Pirates of the Burrning Sea. the thing that makes all of these games great is that they have a drive to get better and people that will say hey there are problems but here are some recomendations to fix them. but understand when the planning of the updates and patches comes that not every issue they reccomend will be addressed imediately. or some will not be addressed at all as it is not a priority.

things that should be done in a game on a scale of priority are going to be
Graphics issues. - Bugs ect
Mission Issues - Bugs and incomplete missions.
Content for Lower ranks as the new players are the life blood of any game
content for mid rank and high ranks this takes time the alpha testing stage is twice as long as any beta
additional options - *ships/mounts/races*
fluf - non essential content. crafting, armor, ect additional toys basicly.

you will see in most updates that you will have a little of everything addressed but they can not address all our issues at once. if you have an idea of how something can be fixed in game write it out logicaly and post it to them. no guarentee that they will take your idea and run with it but if it is written well and works with the scheme of the game it is entirely possible that they will use it.

Patience is a virtue and though my exwife says it is my only virtue atleast it is a virtue that I can be proud of having.

I salute Cryptic on their efforts.

[Archived Post]

The core of the frustration comes from Cryptic offering something only by referral when quite the many people know that despite how much they might enjoy the game, they can't in good faith pitch something as incomplete as STO to friends who aren't already playing. You got the wall at RA5, a very incomplete Klingon faction etc..

They say it won't change but chances are it might when the program doesn't get results past the 1 self paid recruit to get the holo BO and as long as the player base continues to speak out about it one never knows..

[Archived Post]

I don't think complaints about a certain ship associated with a referral program are going to break the dev's spirits. In all honesty I can only think of one post where a couple of devs seemed genuinely offended, and it was a fairly scathing sarcastic comment. Overall they seem to take the positive feedback with the negative (constructive or otherwise) fairly well.

With that said, I do wonder what kind of transitions are going on behind the scenes. There's been no mention as to whether or not Gozer will be replaced as far as I know. While dstahl is still happily talking about updates through Season 5, it feels more like PR than substance. I suspect it's more a reflection of my own boredom of the game (just got my 2nd character to RA5 last week) and the cynicism prevalent on these boards, as well as the fact that we haven't seen a calendar or Engineering Reports update for a little while now.

[Archived Post]

You can never go too far.

;)

[Archived Post]

Again, I hope that Cryptic realizes that no one would bother posting, or making long-winded tirades if they didn't have feelings for STO.

Most of the people who're angry are fans who feel they've been cheated out of the Star Trek experience they dreamed of. Fact is that no matter what Star Trek Online was, people were always going to be upset about it, because nothing can ever match up to what you dream of.

I just hope that Cryptic keeps on keeping on, because as much as there is wrong with STO, it's the only Star Trek MMO we've got. Chances are that it will forever be the only one we've got, and that is something that I think is worth fighting for.

So no, don't stop complaining, but maybe take a breather once in a while to compliment Cryptic on something they've done that you do like.

this is very true....we are players yes, but we allso have great emmotions to the star trek name title games book comics so on...and we all see what this game could be..

i love this game, i love the fleet members that are around me, we all became very good friends...we had high hopes talking abought the game a year before launch...

if players vent what they think is wrong dont make them a bad players or person just shows there love of the game and there hopes for it....

[Archived Post]

I can't think of any manner is which that mentality is a good thing. I would tend to think it is actually a bad thing. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying don't tell Cryptic how you feel about a certain action or elements of gameplay etc. I am also not suggesting that we flower them with roses and hugs either.

Agreed...people think Im wierd when I try to use the relationship analogy with respect to the player/dev interaction. But it applies...no mutally supportive relationship propers when the two see each other as the "enemy". No disagreement can be productive if both sides look to only demonize and be-little the other.

Its fine, its expected, its healthy to disagree and have different perspectives...but its all for not if you use that disagreement to raise a flag of opposition and hunker down behind a wall of bitterness, flinging attacks at each other.

[Archived Post]

...as well as the fact that we haven't seen a calendar or Engineering Reports update for a little while now.

While I can't speak to the Calendar update - I posted in the Engineering Report yesterday that things are for the most part still on track (ie.. some changes) but for the most part features are on track. I'll have a full update later today.

To the OP - from my perspective it was ok to voice opinion over the referral program - and it was discussed several times in executive meetings and it was felt that the reward was worthy of the challenging task. We realize it isn't a cake-walk to recruit 5 friends, which is why the reward was asked to be cool.

And as I've stated elsewhere - the program is really intended for players who are enjoying the game and having fun and want to share their love of the game with their friends. If that isn't you, then the program really isn't designed for you. I don't think it does anyone any good (including the community) to bring people into the game who really don't want to play it in the first place - or to purchase their own subs just to get a reward - it doesn't help the game to do that. What helps the game is finding more people who do enjoy and want to play the game. I know its hard to gather from reading these boards sometimes, but there are quite a few people who do enjoy and love this game.

If that's not you - then I can only assume you're here because you want to make the game better - and I can tell you that the team is working breakneck to get updates into the game so that there is always a flow of new features and content that you've been asking for. If you are here just to cause trouble, then don't be surprised if the mods bounce... because it really just isn't helping.

Whether or not the community went too far is something you'll have to look at personally. From this perspective your concerns were heard, communicated, and responded to.

Is the Galaxy X only going to be available via referral? Probably because that is what it was designed for - but who knows... things can always change.

[Archived Post]

this is very true....we are players yes, but we allso have great emmotions to the star trek name title games book comics so on...and we all see what this game could be..

i love this game, i love the fleet members that are around me, we all became very good friends...we had high hopes talking abought the game a year before launch...

if players vent what they think is wrong dont make them a bad players or person just shows there love of the game and there hopes for it....

I have to agree with this statement. However, I also agree that the community takes things too far. But then that is also to be expected. The customers are the children... the Developers are the parents. Parents always make mistakes and children have to learn to be respectful. And sometimes..... sometimes.... we will realize that us "children" do not get everything we want.

[Archived Post]

We realize it isn't a cake-walk to recruit 5 friends, which is why the reward was asked to be cool.

*waves* Hi dstahl. Um... how's that local sports team, eh? :o

But... yeah. I'm still not feeling good about this part. Something 'cool' is a distinct concept from 'something gameplay-affecting'. You could still get a cool (and unique from any other model if you wanted to make it that way) visual representation of the Galaxy-X's heavy spinal phaser by making that the emission point for dual-beam items equipped to the ship and associating a unique graphical effect with that. With a promotion designed entirely around money changing hands (with the intent being that it not be a single person's money, obviously, but there's nothing stopping that) this still really sets an uncomfortable precedent in my eyes and a progression past the 'just gimmicks' of prior promotions. It makes me feel foolish for vocally supporting cosmetic paid extras on the grounds that things would stop there. Well, I already do because of C-store species, but now I feel it moreso.

[Archived Post]

As a lifer this forum is my only recourse to showing my displeasure (or pleasure) with the game and cryptic. Right now imvery displeased.

[Archived Post]

WARNING: Wall of Text (sorry). Important points highlighted.

Here's a link to the official Atari Memo on acquiring Cryptic. (http://corporate.atari.com/event/120909_Cryptic_PR_final_GB_def.pdf)

Search for "bonus" which appears on page 2. The bonus is actually for out performing revenue targets for CO and STO combined. There's two payout periods, the first scheduled for August of this year. The bonus may have something to do with the contractual launch date but I think it's more than likely CBS since they put up with Perpetual's vaporware for so long.

You're right that Atari acquired Cryptic specifically for their ability to quickly develop a MMO with a reduced budget and reduced resources. Cryptic uses that and their proprietary game engine which facilitates this to market themselves. Jack Emmert also mentioned how quickly STO would be finished in Vegas 2008.

There's nothing really wrong with this business wise... *if* that model fit the demand. What went wrong is CBS, Atari and Cryptic underestimated the response to STO. This is proven during Closed Beta where they simply were overwhelmed by the numbers of people who had access. Plans were changed for CB purchasers so the servers wouldn't be overloaded. Then at open beta the test servers had to be converted into live servers, etc. We know the story.

Cryptic is now the little engine that could. I don't believe they are evil people who don't care about Star Trek and who just want to grab our money so they can go onto their next MMO. They were faced with a difficult situation given their size, the overwhelming demand and the grand scope of the Star Trek IP.

They had to launch under contractual agreement. Simply put... They bit off more than they could chew. It explains everything from no TOS mini skirt at launch to an undone Klingon faction. Everything people have been ranting and raving for they want to do but didn't have the time & resources for.

This "minimal resource required" business model continues. Cryptic has lost plenty of subs (some claim a hemorrhage) over them not being able to meet player demands for features and content. I think it's maybe not a hemorrhage but certainly more than that "it's normal for MMOs to loose subs after launch" argument.

I believe they are doing their very best but most everything has to be implemented on a triage basis. I think they are honestly busting their nuggets not only for us players but also so they can show Atari and CBS that they are up to this challenge. If people understand this maybe they would be more understanding.

That being said, I still understand people who are upset about STO. After all, corners were cut to get the game launched. Advertised features are still not available or were made available much later than anticipated. The irate customer is not at fault here. Some understanding should be given to that angry person too, especially those who are staying to fight for the features they want.

Cryptic's plan right from the get go (since their return on the scene) is to keep pumping out whatever crappola they can in a very specific time frame, get whatever revenue they can from the box sales and lifetimes to pay for development, and then whatever is left over (if any) and the monthly subs they end up with is the gravy.

That's how they sold Cryptic.

That's what Atari is expecting out of them for the next few years. A stable of mmos cranked out fast and on the cheap to provide a pool of subscribers. Essentially subscriber volume spread out over multiple games as opposed to one.

That was what they were flogging in the press and to any big company that would let their slimy tails in the door, and that's exactly what a financially troubled company bought. All Atari did was add a clause in there to motivate Cryptic to stick to the plan that Cryptic sold them. The reason the release date for STO got locked in stone in the late summer/fall of 2009 had to do with the very poor performance of CO, and so STO HAD to be released early 2010 for Cryptic to have any chance at the bonus.

CBS doesn't even really come into the picture. All they wanted to see was progress, and the company to have enough resources to continue to pay for the licensing when renewal time rolls around. They don't have any real stake in whether STO does well or not, beyond maybe a set slice of profits if it does well, but that's just icing on the cake for them if it happens. It's not like a company like CBS was thinking the performance of STO would effect the ST IP in any way, except to maybe increase it's profile a bit more with a specific demographic. CBS makes money off the movies and the license (the same as it does for any other genre of game).

Cryptic doesn't give a rat's behind about their customers beyond doing the bare minimum it took to first suck them in to buying, and then keep a portion of them subscribing. If that's "player driven content" then every single mmo that's been released has done it. They didn't "plan" on "putting out a bare skeleton and then developing it with player input" at all. That whole schpeel came out of nowhere near the end of open beta when they were getting hammered by people seeing just how little was there and the word started getting around faster than they anticipated. It's just more snakeoiling.

It's still not their plan either. Ya'll will get what they already long ago decided to give IF they got in trouble (which STO did otherwise they'd have moved more over to the next project as soon as STO was released), and it's simple for them to pretend it's "player driven" (to keep the facade) because the game is so devoid of content and features they can easily find a group that's asking for what they're adding, then point to them and say "see, player driven!". They can also rely on the general forum dweller's ego to just suck that sh..stuff up too.

The story about the Klingon faction and how "rioting on the forums" got them to start adding PvE content I read earlier in the thread? Ya, horsepucky. They didn't make any movement on adding PvE content, and distancing themselves from the "PvP faction" thing, until it became very clear that they had severely underestimated just how many were planning on playing Klingon but were turned off by their decision, and when they were losing pre-orders over it. We were "fighting" to save the faction (not rioting) for over two months after the word leaked out about the decision to make it PvP oriented, and there was nothing but silence from Cryptic on the matter. Well except for one of their producers ridiculing us in IRC, and implanting keywords into the sheep's brains that then came on the forums to use those words in their attacks on us.

Then people that were in CB and later OB started making it clear they were packing it in when it came to STO by canceling their pre-orders and asking for LTS refunds, and entire fleets were folding or moving on. It wasn't till then we heard anything about adding PvE content, and even then all we got was a smoke and mirrors show about what it would be and when it would be there. They made sure to intimate that it was coming in this wonderful "45 day patch" though. So again, enough to have suckers (ya, I'm one of them) buy the game and subscribe for at least a month.

They just keep playing the fiddle too, and some just keep dancing to their tune. :rolleyes:

[Archived Post]

And as I've stated elsewhere - the program is really intended for players who are enjoying the game and having fun and want to share their love of the game with their friends. If that isn't you, then the program really isn't designed for you. I don't think it does anyone any good (including the community) to bring people into the game who really don't want to play it in the first place - or to purchase their own subs just to get a reward - it doesn't help the game to do that. What helps the game is finding more people who do enjoy and want to play the game. I know its hard to gather from reading these boards sometimes, but there are quite a few people who do enjoy and love this game.
And what about those of us who have already tried bringing friends and associates into this game, only for them to become fustrated and quit due to lack of content and other issues? Even if we could re-recruit these people, they can't count towards your referral system, and we reamain screwed. Even more so for any friends that've actually stayed with the game.


If that's not you - then I can only assume you're here because you want to make the game better - and I can tell you that the team is working breakneck to get updates into the game so that there is always a flow of new features and content that you've been asking for. If you are here just to cause trouble, then don't be surprised if the mods bounce... because it really just isn't helping.
Continuing to witthold canon content from your playerbase behind walls of exclusivity does not and will never make this game better. And yet, we continue to support this game.


Whether or not the community went too far is something you'll have to look at personally. From this perspective your concerns were heard, communicated, and responded to.
This is yet another post of yours responding to this issue that seems to lean towards dismissing your player's concerns and complaints about this and similar issues as invalid, inconvenient, or just mindless 'rioting'. This trend continues to disturb and insult me, sir.


Is the Galaxy X only going to be available via referral? Probably because that is what it was designed for - but who knows... things can always change.
It's been a week since this notion became public, and the vocal complaints and disapproval continue. And all we've gotten in response is a handful of posts like this, implying that you may or may not possibly consider a theoretical change at some point in the future. This hedging and dodging does not help matters at all.

[Archived Post]

As a lifer this forum is my only recourse to showing my displeasure (or pleasure) with the game and cryptic. Right now imvery displeased.

You arent the only one...

[Archived Post]

People have been QQing, hard, over RAF. Seriously, its not nearly as bad as people make it out to be.

[Archived Post]

1) We realize it isn't a cake-walk to recruit 5 friends, which is why the reward was asked to be cool.

2) If that's not you - then I can only assume you're here because you want to make the game better - and I can tell you that the team is working breakneck to get updates into the game so that there is always a flow of new features and content that you've been asking for. If you are here just to cause trouble, then don't be surprised if the mods bounce... because it really just isn't helping.



1) It could have been cool, but something else. How logical is it to use something that would rile the community so much, and such a prized ship class that many people asked to be included in the game well before launch? If it's supposed to be cool, I understand. Makes sense, you want to motivate people. But how ideal is it when this same super cool item essentially causes people to also be turned off to you guys by it being made exclusive. Talk about Star Trek dreams... you just essentially alienated part of your community. Again... it could have been something COOL... but something ELSE cool, not Galaxy X. Was this the most ideal decision Dan?

2) Yes, I want to make the game better, and I believe that you guys are busting your (trying to think of something far from ever being considered vulgar to avoid giving Phoxe a reason to..)... baskets of vegetables... to get things out fast. You guys really have no choice with what the end result has been. But at the same time, your community manager Phoxe is outrageously abusing his authority. Unfortunately, I can't talk about specifics out of respect for your forum rules. Your community email address only spits back canned responses, so there is no human touch involved with the process. Sure, there are definite flamers, but even in my critical positions I have aspired to be fair, honest, respectful, AND constructive. Hypothetically speaking Dan, wouldn't you be pretty disappointed if you were cited as being "vulgar" for using a very commonly used word... and at the same time, you were quoting Craig Zinc verbatim? I could give other examples, but I am pretty sure the company in question would loose much credibility if they start STRAINING to find reasons to take action against you. You're not the only one to make mention of this, but its disappointing more so because it seems that you are not even fully aware of whats going on. When someone is contributing to the problem, then there is a bigger problem. I am not speaking about moderation (because that is against the rules), but I am clearly stating that one of your mods is abusing their position grossly.

[Archived Post]

1) It could have been cool, but something else.

If that something else were "cool" the same thing would have happened. Maybe from different posters, since that something else would have been something other posters wanted. But the reaction would have been the same.

The only way this would not have been the reaction was if the reward was not something cool.

And then the threads would have been complaint threads about how the reward sucks, no one will do it because the reward sucks and that devs are wasting time on things that suck. It's a catch-22.

[Archived Post]

If that something else were "cool" the same thing would have happened. Maybe from different posters, since that something else would have been something other posters wanted. But the reaction would have been the same.

I think it should have been a Q mini-pet that appears at random and follows you around for a while making snarky comments.

[Archived Post]

If that something else were "cool" the same thing would have happened. Maybe from different posters, since that something else would have been something other posters wanted. But the reaction would have been the same.

The only way this would not have been the reaction was if the reward was not something cool.

And then the threads would have been complaint threads about how the reward sucks, no one will do it because the reward sucks and that devs are wasting time on things that suck. It's a catch-22.

What you say is POSSIBLE for sure, I will definitely grant you that.

But what adds insult to injury in this case, is that the Galaxy X was plainly an item that people repeatedly asked for before the launch of the game, closed beta, etc. And now to pour a bit of salt on the wound... it isn't just any ship... its Canon.

We have so few canon ships to choose from as it is, whereas they could make a seemingly endless supply of cryptic star trekesque ships.

Making a canon ship
which many people wanted
exclusive
makes me a sad vegetable. (and others apparently).

It would have been probably far less pronounced if the offered item had a functional clickie ability, but was an originally built in house item. Or maybe a new ship. Or a VARIANT of the Galaxy X, hah. But, in my opinion, they choose the greater of two evils... withholding a coveted canon ship and choosing to keep it out of reach for many people.

I've said this before... but if the Galaxy X as a T5 would have been made available in game... it is something big enough to have actually made me log in to the game. It would have been a "WOW... thats cool and GREAT Cryptic". I and many others would have been excited about it. Instead... well... look what affect their decision had.

So in essence, I'm only talking about what would have been most ideal in this situation. Know what I mean? And did you like my semi-haiku (i know its not even close)?

[Archived Post]

And then the threads would have been complaint threads about how the reward sucks, no one will do it because the reward sucks and that devs are wasting time on things that suck. It's a catch-22.

Well, I haven't seen any whole threads, but I've definitely seen posts saying the Galaxy-X is a crap reward anyway. Mostly from people who would prefer some manner of escort, science ship, or Klingon vessel. It's amusing.

[Archived Post]

I think it should have been a Q mini-pet that appears at random and follows you around for a while making snarky comments.

If THAT were the reward, even I'd be trying to get 5 people to join the game. The Snarky Comments AI alone would motivate me. The best thing is ... I think they could design this. And simply pull quotations from their very own forums. We could be the fuel that makes this awesome go.

[Archived Post]

What you say is POSSIBLE for sure, I will definitely grant you that.

But what adds insult to injury in this case, is that the Galaxy X was plainly an item that people repeatedly asked for before the launch of the game, closed beta, etc. And now to pour a bit of salt on the wound... it isn't just any ship... its Canon.

We have so few canon ships to choose from as it is, whereas they could make a seemingly endless supply of cryptic star trekesque ships.

Making a canon ship
which many people wanted
exclusive
makes me a sad vegetable. (and others apparently).

It would have been probably far less pronounced if the offered item had a functional clickie ability, but was an originally built in house item. Or maybe a new ship. Or a VARIANT of the Galaxy X, hah. But, in my opinion, they choose the greater of two evils... withholding a coveted canon ship and choosing to keep it out of reach for many people.

I've said this before... but if the Galaxy X as a T5 would have been made available in game... it is something big enough to have actually made me log in to the game. It would have been a "WOW... thats cool and GREAT Cryptic". I and many others would have been excited about it. Instead... well... look what affect their decision had.

So in essence, I'm only talking about what would have been most ideal in this situation. Know what I mean? And did you like my semi-haiku (i know its not even close)?

I still don't quite buy it. I've seen far more people push for the Excelsior than the Galaxy X. I've seen a post or two about the All Good Things enterprise. But as a concerted community effort, there's been so much more outcry about the Excelsior.

[Archived Post]

If THAT were the reward, even I'd be trying to get 5 people to join the game. The Snarky Comments AI alone would motivate me. The best thing is ... I think they could design this. And simply pull quotations from their very own forums. We could be the fuel that makes this awesome go.

Lol. I imagine a mini-Q wandering around muttering 'Fail...all fail'.

Best of all, they could call it "QQ".

[Archived Post]

Lol. I imagine a mini-Q wandering around muttering 'Fail...all fail'.

Best of all, they could call it "QQ".

OMG. You have now picked up a fan for life. That ... is ... perfect!

They have the Pets in game. There are targs. There's tons of action figures in their other game. They could do this. They really really could.

[Archived Post]

I still don't quite buy it. I've seen far more people push for the Excelsior than the Galaxy X. I've seen a post or two about the All Good Things enterprise. But as a concerted community effort, there's been so much more outcry about the Excelsior.

I agree. Many more people who would prefer an Excelsior or even a Nebula.

[Archived Post]

Lol. I imagine a mini-Q wandering around muttering 'Fail...all fail'.

Best of all, they could call it "QQ".

Hah! Absolutely CLASSIC! :D

[Archived Post]

If that something else were "cool" the same thing would have happened. Maybe from different posters, since that something else would have been something other posters wanted. But the reaction would have been the same.

The only way this would not have been the reaction was if the reward was not something cool.

And then the threads would have been complaint threads about how the reward sucks, no one will do it because the reward sucks and that devs are wasting time on things that suck. It's a catch-22.

Maybe then the idea isnt to do it? I know sometimes inactivity is not in vogue but discretion is often the better part of valor for a reason. Besides, instead of creating stupid gimmicks to make people play the game. Perhaps ALL effort should be to make the game better and have it sell itself?

Naaaa what am i thinking, like that would ever happen.

[Archived Post]

And as I've stated elsewhere - the program is really intended for players who are enjoying the game and having fun and want to share their love of the game with their friends.

Sorry, but that statement is flawed. Just because a person is playing and enjoying the game doesnt mean they can get their friends to play. Afterall, you cant force someone to do something. TBH, I think putting that spin on it is a little insulting to the players who arent able to get their friends to play.

[Archived Post]

personally, i think the forums are just filled with people who would rather whine about the game then play
or, the few of us, who (like me ) can't play at a particular time do to w/e reason, and so instead we browse the forums ( though i find these people tend to be the logically reasonable people )

Heh, yes. Browsing the forums is what I do when I can't play. And from what browsing I do, it seems it's mostly the same dozen people or so doing ninety percent of the griping/trolling. The species Concern Troll seems particularly widespread. I hope people don't really think they are representative of the player base. While there are things I could stand to see improved with the game, it's barely opened yet and being improved week by week. Developers hard at work!

[Archived Post]

Sorry, but that statement is flawed. Just because a person is playing and enjoying the game doesnt mean they can get their friends to play. Afterall, you cant force someone to do something. TBH, I think putting that spin on it is a little insulting to the players who arent able to get their friends to play.

insulting is really the only word for it. you're right

[Archived Post]

Lol. I imagine a mini-Q wandering around muttering 'Fail...all fail'.

Best of all, they could call it "QQ".There is not a good enough LOL emoticon on this forum, so I will just have to award you 1 Internets for this! :D

[Archived Post]

If THAT were the reward, even I'd be trying to get 5 people to join the game. The Snarky Comments AI alone would motivate me. The best thing is ... I think they could design this. And simply pull quotations from their very own forums. We could be the fuel that makes this awesome go.

Hah! Awesome lulz powered by the forums.

Lol. I imagine a mini-Q wandering around muttering 'Fail...all fail'.

Best of all, they could call it "QQ".

*giggle*

[Archived Post]

Maybe then the idea isnt to do it?

They have data from Champions and from other MMOs that demonstrates the idea of a referral program is a valid idea that can and does work.

Try to understand that the mere fact so many posters demonstrate how badly they want this reward, does actually enhance the validity of this idea. For it to work they want the carrot to be tempting.

As I said, the alternative is to put something not cool in. Which as I said, people will complain about.

All these complaints really do is solidify their choice of reward as being a good one.

I know sometimes inactivity is not in vogue but discretion is often the better part of valor for a reason. Besides, instead of creating stupid gimmicks to make people play the game.

It's an effective marketing tool. Marketing isn't about being discrete.

Perhaps ALL effort should be to make the game better and have it sell itself?

Naaaa what am i thinking, like that would ever happen.

There's this forum. It's called Engineering Reports (http://forums.startrekonline.com/forumdisplay.php?f=158)

It details what the devs are doing to make the game better.

Have you missed this?

[Archived Post]

Try to understand that the mere fact so many posters demonstrate how badly they want this reward, does actually enhance the validity of this idea. For it to work they want the carrot to be tempting.

As I said, the alternative is to put something not cool in. Which as I said, people will complain about.

All these complaints really do is solidify their choice of reward as being a good one.

I'm glad someone else besides myself noticed this. While the Galaxy carrot isn't to my tastes, clearly it is to a great many other people. But the Holo Tribble/BOff certainly piqued my interest in trying a light salad.

Not sure where I was going with that metaphor...

[Archived Post]

I still don't quite buy it. I've seen far more people push for the Excelsior than the Galaxy X. I've seen a post or two about the All Good Things enterprise. But as a concerted community effort, there's been so much more outcry about the Excelsior.

Sure, your right. There has been more feedback on the Excelsior, naturally of course since that ship received far more on screen time than the Galaxy X (which is another reference actually for the All Good Things Enterprise). Regardless though, my question still stands with the points previously made... was using the All Good Things Enterprise the most ideal notion?

[Archived Post]

They have data from Champions and from other MMOs that demonstrates the idea of a referral program is a valid idea that can and does work.

Try to understand that the mere fact so many posters demonstrate how badly they want this reward, does actually enhance the validity of this idea. For it to work they want the carrot to be tempting.

As I said, the alternative is to put something not cool in. Which as I said, people will complain about.

All these complaints really do is solidify their choice of reward as being a good one.



Or they could be so disgusted or turned off by the fact that Cryptic is choosing not listen to the community in this instance, that they decidedly choose to not participate in the RAF program, or quit all together (as I have seen some people threaten to do).

Sure, the attention is on the RAF program. But I am by no means motivated to go after the Galaxy X. In fact, I am even more put off by them, than I was before. Heck, as I said before, if they made it available in game... it is actually something that could have made me LOG IN TO THE GAME.

But as it is now... well, that won't be happening.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure it backfired on them. As opposed to being motivated to get the Galaxy X... meh... I can't be bothered, and people seem put out by this whole Galaxy Gate, than having their cookies baked.

[Archived Post]

Or they could be so disgusted or turned off by the fact that Cryptic is choosing not listen to the community in this instance, that they decidedly choose to not participate in the RAF program, or quit all together (as I have seen some people threaten to do).

Sure, the attention is on the RAF program. But I am by no means motivated to go after the Galaxy X. In fact, I am even more put off by them, than I was before. Heck, as I said before, if they made it available in game... it is actually something that could have made me LOG IN TO THE GAME.

But as it is now... well, that won't be happening.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure it backfired on them. As opposed to being motivated to get the Galaxy X... meh... I can't be bothered, and people seem put out by this whole Galaxy Gate, than having their cookies baked.

Imagine a scenario where STO copied the CO recruitment program almost exactly and added the other bits to the game as something you could earn. Part of the discussion when recruiting a friend could be "And they just added some cool things to the game to kick this off, like that crazy Enterprise from the TNG finale. Y'know, the one that goes all Death Star on a pair of Vor'cha's. And they have the frikkin' laser!"

Then these things that are walled off behind exclusives with the referral program become part of the general enticement for everyone to actually sign up rather than for people to shill. And since, in this scenario, the Galaxy-X with its Frikkin' Laser Beam :cool: is something that can be worked towards in game, Cryptic can go crazy with it without me considering them unethical. Not that they care, obviously.

[Archived Post]

Or they could be so disgusted or turned off by the fact that Cryptic is choosing not listen to the community in this instance, that they decidedly choose to not participate in the RAF program, or quit all together (as I have seen some people threaten to do).

Sure, the attention is on the RAF program. But I am by no means motivated to go after the Galaxy X. In fact, I am even more put off by them, than I was before. Heck, as I said before, if they made it available in game... it is actually something that could have made me LOG IN TO THE GAME.

But as it is now... well, that won't be happening.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure it backfired on them. As opposed to being motivated to get the Galaxy X... meh... I can't be bothered, and people seem put out by this whole Galaxy Gate, than having their cookies baked.

Would seem be be smart thing right? add the Gal X to the game makes 99% of the customers happy. Make it RAF and QQthe entire community for a short term cash flow but losing out more on long term subscribers due to continuing bad PR and quitters.

'Maybe thats the whole idea, they dont see STO surviving long and looking for periodic cash infusions "peaks" to look good on the books for the bonuses.

[Archived Post]

I am moving this thread to the more appropriate C-Store and Promotions feedback subforum.

[Archived Post]

Sorry, but that statement is flawed. Just because a person is playing and enjoying the game doesnt mean they can get their friends to play. Afterall, you cant force someone to do something. TBH, I think putting that spin on it is a little insulting to the players who arent able to get their friends to play.

Although I very much appreciate Dstahl going to the CEO about the Galaxy X, this is true but not Dstahl's fault. He did what he could and got an answer that I'm personally disappointed with. I won't shoot the messenger in this instance.

The real blame lies at the feet of the marketing department. They designed this program for anyone who loves the game and who is also a top notch salesperson ONLY. No consideration was made at all for those who don't have the social connections or skills necessary to complete this task.

They could have at least given credit to people who successfully used their buddy keys. 1) It's 100% doable but they don't want to spend any resources on incorporating it into RAF. And 2) They don't want to give credit for the past. They want a new influx of players.

In the end marketing's design will stand as they want a reward so cool it will motivate people to hit the streets and sell STO for them. It also stands to reason that the Galaxy X will have a cloak and a weapon that may not be as balanced as some think. I kinda doubt it will be junk else it defeats the purpose for creating this little motivational ship. And if they can keep this reward rare it will cut down on calls for nerfs.

[Archived Post]

you have just killed this community.
If you think that we are going to chase around many different, dead, forums to continue conversations you are mistaken. I have no doubt that's exactly what you want.

[Archived Post]

Sure, the attention is on the RAF program. But I am by no means motivated to go after the Galaxy X. In fact, I am even more put off by them, than I was before. Heck, as I said before, if they made it available in game... it is actually something that could have made me LOG IN TO THE GAME.

But as it is now... well, that won't be happening.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure it backfired on them. As opposed to being motivated to get the Galaxy X... meh... I can't be bothered, and people seem put out by this whole Galaxy Gate, than having their cookies baked.

I can't say it's backfired on them, I don't think anybody knows that but them (i.e., Cryptic). However, I agree completely with your comment of, " if they made it available in game... it is actually something that could have made me LOG IN TO THE GAME.," and at its heart, this is the problem IMHO with the RAF program.

Sure, they'll get more subscribers, but will those subscribers stay past the 30 days? If I want more of my friends to join I want them to stick around and play with me more than I want a snazzy new ship. Nearly all my friends are gamers, they know about STO already and the ones who haven't already signed up have refused to sign-up because in their opinion the game needs more polish, more content, and more end-game. The new trailers/teasers/Dev Videos coming out from Bioware, CCP, NetDevil, and Reakktor Media for their games hasn't helped "sell" this game to them either. I'd be shocked if other people haven't heard the same from some of their friends, but I digress...

The time and resources (again IMHO) should have been put toward in-game content, not special content for an RAF program at this point in the game's life. Like I said in other posts, I would have offered free C-Store points, free game time, and in-game titles, then I would have added the snazzier rewards later when the in-game content was in a better place.

To make a long story short, I won't even consider promoting this game, no matter what the reward, until well after Season 2 perhaps even Season 3.

[Archived Post]

Would seem be be smart thing right? add the Gal X to the game makes 99% of the customers happy.

I think the smarter move is to offer the weird spinoff one of Mutant ship from All Good Things as a reward fro something not everyone is going to participate in ...

And make the T5 Defiant and T5 Intrepid ... and the Excelsior whenever Paramount gives them the OK on it ...you know those right? The thnigs that that 99% of the community has been crying for in thread after threat? Yeah, I think making THOSE free for gameplay ... and making the weird variant mutant ship a special ... is far smarter.

And I think time will justify my view as the correct one.

A T5 Defiant will make more people currently playing the game want to log into the game, than the AGT Galaxy.

Seriously, it's been shown in post after post, thread after thread, that the motivation behind all this angst about the RAF program is that people who want this simply don't want to participate in the program. They just want the reward. In the easiest way possible.

But the reward itself doesn't merit anything changing.

[Archived Post]

Although I very much appreciate Dstahl going to the CEO about the Galaxy X, this is true but not Dstahl's fault. He did what he could and got an answer that I'm personally disappointed with. I won't shoot the messenger in this instance.

The real blame lies at the feet of the marketing department. They designed this program for anyone who loves the game and who is also a top notch salesperson ONLY. No consideration was made at all for those who don't have the social connections or skills necessary to complete this task.

They could have at least given credit to people who successfully used their buddy keys. 1) It's 100% doable but they don't want to spend any resources on incorporating it into RAF. And 2) They don't want to give credit for the past. They want a new influx of players.

In the end marketing's design will stand as they want a reward so cool it will motivate people to hit the streets and sell STO for them. It also stands to reason that the Galaxy X will have a cloak and a weapon that may not be as balanced as some think. I kinda doubt it will be junk else it defeats the purpose for creating this little motivational ship. And if they can keep this reward rare it will cut down on calls for nerfs.

Our CEO has learned from the unquestioned grandmaster of scam, "honest" John Smedley, of SOE and Star Wars Galaxies NGE infamy. Dstahl will probably get fired for showing any sign of having a principle or standing up for the customers. Smed fired a community manager that did something similar.

My problem with the Galaxy-X reward isn't that they are giving out a ship skin for people who either go buy 5 boxes of the game and pay for 5 subscriptions for one month, or somehow convince 5 others to do so. It's the fact that they are deliberately making doing this more desirable by making it also THE MOST POWERFUL SHIP IN THE GAME because it has an extra weapon, and the ability to cloak, neither of which other Federation T5 ships can or will do at the time of it's release.

Oh, they say we will have other ships with similar abilities "in the future". Which is not when the first superfanbois who are willing to spend $200 to become an alpha class start showing up in these things.

That is what makes this deal completely unethical and a total betrayal of the customer.

John Needham isn't going to compromise because he knows that their "referrals" (which won't be real new players in any case) will be a fraction of what they would be unless that ship is so overpowered a certain segment considers it mandatory to get it.

[Archived Post]

Our CEO has learned from the unquestioned grandmaster of scam, "honest" John Smedley, of SOE and Star Wars Galaxies NGE infamy.

And due to the monk-nerf, Jack Emmert saw fit to put ED into CoH and that's why the Galaxy X is a slap in the face to the entire STO community, amirite?

C'mon man, let's go camp Ragefire or something.

[Archived Post]

I am moving this thread to the more appropriate C-Store and Promotions feedback subforum.Nice. You guys are just classic. :rolleyes:

roflcopters

[Archived Post]

And due to the monk-nerf, Jack Emmert saw fit to put ED into CoH and that's why the Galaxy X is a slap in the face to the entire STO community, amirite?

C'mon man, let's go camp Ragefire or something.

http://www.massively.com/2008/06/02/cryptic-appoints-former-soe-exec-as-new-ceo/

I'm speaking of John Needham, not Jack Emmert.

I blame myself for being asleep at the switch and never noticing that article before. I probably never would have bought STO and certainly never would have bought a LTS had I known that someone who worked that closely with Smed was CEO, and apparently making operational decisions directly affecting gameplay, such as introducing an alpha class ship... For the price of 5 boxed sets plus 5 subscriptions for 1 month, which comes out to about $275.

What is truly sad is there will be people who do this.

[Archived Post]

http://www.massively.com/2008/06/02/cryptic-appoints-former-soe-exec-as-new-ceo/

I'm speaking of John Needham, not Jack Emmert.

I blame myself for being asleep at the switch and never noticing that article before. I probably never would have bought STO and certainly never would have bought a LTS had I known that someone who worked that closely with Smed was CEO, and apparently making operational decisions directly affecting gameplay, such as introducing an alpha class ship... For the price of 5 boxed sets plus 5 subscriptions for 1 month, which comes out to about $275.

What is truly sad is there will be people who do this.

Needham has been here ages. Why are you acting like this is news? I think he came on board when Atari bumped up the other SEO guy who lost them $300M 2008/2009

[Archived Post]

http://www.massively.com/2008/06/02/cryptic-appoints-former-soe-exec-as-new-ceo/

I'm speaking of John Needham, not Jack Emmert.

But Jack Emmert PLAYED everquest. And played a monk. And it was the monk nerf ... in the smedley run game ... that taught Emmert how to do this.

If, as you state, people are guilty by association, I am simply showing you how tightly woven your anti-SOE Everquest resentment really is.

It all goes back to McQuaid leaving. And Shadows of Luclin. And Vanguard.

We know this.

The Galaxy X is Smedley's fault because SoE killed Planetside and Matrix Online and Vanguard.

I get it. I follow you.

[Archived Post]

It's the fact that they are deliberately making doing this more desirable by making it also THE MOST POWERFUL SHIP IN THE GAME because it has an extra weapon, and the ability to cloak, neither of which other Federation T5 ships can or will do at the time of it's release.

Er, just want to point out, politely: From what we have been told, the Galaxy-X has one less forward weapons slot to simulate having this weapon. I forget how many forward weapon slots a standard T4 Galaxy has, but the Galaxy-X has one less forward configurable weapon slot.

In a way, I'm glad they did this with the Galaxy-X. If they tried it with the Excelsior or a cloakking Defiant, the uproar would be even larger. (As it is, anyone showing up with a Gal-X in PvP is going to be ganked in Planck time. Socially, I don't see Gal-X owners making many friends on the forum. But that's besides the point.)

Mind you, I don't want to see these things on the C-Store (or the Gal-X in the C-Store, when they get around to releasing it to the general population.) I want them unlocked in the game. Give me and the other players who just want to play, a reason to play, a goal, something to work towards rather than just grind. =)

[Archived Post]

While I can't speak to the Calendar update - I posted in the Engineering Report yesterday that things are for the most part still on track (ie.. some changes) but for the most part features are on track. I'll have a full update later today.

To the OP - from my perspective it was ok to voice opinion over the referral program - and it was discussed several times in executive meetings and it was felt that the reward was worthy of the challenging task. We realize it isn't a cake-walk to recruit 5 friends, which is why the reward was asked to be cool.

And as I've stated elsewhere - the program is really intended for players who are enjoying the game and having fun and want to share their love of the game with their friends. If that isn't you, then the program really isn't designed for you. I don't think it does anyone any good (including the community) to bring people into the game who really don't want to play it in the first place - or to purchase their own subs just to get a reward - it doesn't help the game to do that. What helps the game is finding more people who do enjoy and want to play the game. I know its hard to gather from reading these boards sometimes, but there are quite a few people who do enjoy and love this game.

If that's not you - then I can only assume you're here because you want to make the game better - and I can tell you that the team is working breakneck to get updates into the game so that there is always a flow of new features and content that you've been asking for. If you are here just to cause trouble, then don't be surprised if the mods bounce... because it really just isn't helping.

Whether or not the community went too far is something you'll have to look at personally. From this perspective your concerns were heard, communicated, and responded to.

Is the Galaxy X only going to be available via referral? Probably because that is what it was designed for - but who knows... things can always change.Thank you for this informative outreach.

Can we get an official message posting on Cryptic's overall stance on its intentions with "Exclusive" items as they stand now? (including examples) I know you ended this with "things can always change" but I also know what that means (it means never say never, and nothing more). Sadly, most forum communities latch onto those words... careful how they are used. At any rate, I for one would like to understand the company's limits on what will be changed to non- and semi-exclusive items down the road, the way TCT has (not judging, just asking).

I think it would go a long way to settling these riots before they rule 2 days of the boards time if there are clear-cut, definitive, gold-name post(s) on exactly how and what Cryptic defines these rewards. So long as that post sticks to what the current stance is, and does not try to include "possibilities" of future changes to this. If it too ends with " things can always change," the riots will double in length. Of course they can change, just don't cover that bit. Cover the current policy.

[Archived Post]

you have just killed this community.
If you think that we are going to chase around many different, dead, forums to continue conversations you are mistaken. I have no doubt that's exactly what you want.

I'm sorry but your argument is not logical. I understand you have strong feelings about STO and the moderators in general, but it is more logical to assume they did the restructuing so their respective departments can see what people are complaining about.

I don't think an additional click or two on the mouse can be classified as "chasing".... unless you troll the forums and you want an easier way to do so :) But ofc you don't do that.

[Archived Post]

Cryptic doesn't give a rat's behind about their customers beyond doing the bare minimum it took to first suck them in to buying, and then keep a portion of them subscribing. If that's "player driven content" then every single mmo that's been released has done it. They didn't "plan" on "putting out a bare skeleton and then developing it with player input" at all. That whole schpeel came out of nowhere near the end of open beta when they were getting hammered by people seeing just how little was there and the word started getting around faster than they anticipated. It's just more snakeoiling.

It's still not their plan either. Ya'll will get what they already long ago decided to give IF they got in trouble (which STO did otherwise they'd have moved more over to the next project as soon as STO was released), and it's simple for them to pretend it's "player driven" (to keep the facade) because the game is so devoid of content and features they can easily find a group that's asking for what they're adding, then point to them and say "see, player driven!". They can also rely on the general forum dweller's ego to just suck that sh..stuff up too.

You could be right about CBS and about Atari's plan to crank out a bunch of MMO's. I know for sure that Atari acquired Cryptic for their ability to do it quick and on the cheap.

What I disagree with is the notion that Cryptic has done nothing but scheme and plot to string us along and steal our money. It's more likely that Cryptic has busted their assess to make a product that they can be proud of. One that could make money as quickly as possible for Atari yes (you're right about that part) and then sustain/grow their income by adding on more features over time. Evil practices from the depths of hell? Nah... it's just capitalism at work (oh wait maybe that is from hell! :D).

Yes, I agree they often try to sell features and content they had previously planned but I don't believe they are scheming to disguise all of these as player driven features. We've seen them propose things, trying to sell it despite our negative feedback, then change plans to meet demand (or riots lol). If that's all a facade then I guess I'm gullible.


The story about the Klingon faction and how "rioting on the forums" got them to start adding PvE content I read earlier in the thread? Ya, horsepucky. They didn't make any movement on adding PvE content, and distancing themselves from the "PvP faction" thing, until it became very clear that they had severely underestimated just how many were planning on playing Klingon but were turned off by their decision, and when they were losing pre-orders over it. We were "fighting" to save the faction (not rioting) for over two months after the word leaked out about the decision to make it PvP oriented, and there was nothing but silence from Cryptic on the matter. Well except for one of their producers ridiculing us in IRC, and implanting keywords into the sheep's brains that then came on the forums to use those words in their attacks on us.

Then people that were in CB and later OB started making it clear they were packing it in when it came to STO by canceling their pre-orders and asking for LTS refunds, and entire fleets were folding or moving on. It wasn't till then we heard anything about adding PvE content, and even then all we got was a smoke and mirrors show about what it would be and when it would be there. They made sure to intimate that it was coming in this wonderful "45 day patch" though. So again, enough to have suckers (ya, I'm one of them) buy the game and subscribe for at least a month.

They just keep playing the fiddle too, and some just keep dancing to their tune. :rolleyes:

I try to put myself in other people's shoes and understand where they are coming from. That being said I still appreciate you going to bat for Klingon PvE during closed beta. It's sad how it turned out but at least all the riots over it resulted in (yet to be seen) change.

And yea, they tried very hard to sell their PvP only vision of Klingons because they didn't have the time or resources to create PvE for them. Klingon PvE was never planned... probably the only reason why Klingons were in at launch period was because Jack Emmert wanted it that way. "Might as well not have it if it's not in at launch" or something to that effect from one of his interviews.

Plenty here have just painted you as a frothy mouthed troll but I understand your anger given the disparity we've seen from the beginning and all the Klingon fleets that have vanished because of that.

I still think this is another example of how the overwhelming response to STO was totally underestimated. We're both speculating but it may be as you say... that they only planned for STO to be part of a portfolio of small, quick crank MMO's.

And if that's true then they now see how it could have been a HUGE success on all fronts if they had taken the time and committed the resources to make a grand full featured product for both factions at launch. From where I sit, they might still be able to pull it off if they can keep the subs they have and get more by adding compelling features.

[Archived Post]

My problem with the Galaxy-X reward isn't that they are giving out a ship skin for people who either go buy 5 boxes of the game and pay for 5 subscriptions for one month, or somehow convince 5 others to do so. It's the fact that they are deliberately making doing this more desirable by making it also THE MOST POWERFUL SHIP IN THE GAME because it has an extra weapon, and the ability to cloak, neither of which other Federation T5 ships can or will do at the time of it's release.

Oh, they say we will have other ships with similar abilities "in the future". Which is not when the first superfanbois who are willing to spend $200 to become an alpha class start showing up in these things.

That is what makes this deal completely unethical and a total betrayal of the customer.


Yep, it also goes against the possibility of it ending up in the C-Store as items there are intended to be cosmetic or have little impact on the game.

But I do admit mixed feelings here. This RAF offer smells of either desperation or a preemptive strike against loosing subs. I still want STO to succeed no matter how I feel about marketing offers. Part of me hopes this works out well for Cryptic but marketing really needs to reevaluate their practices. Most of what they are doing is either divisive or unfair or both to the community.

[Archived Post]

Honestly, can you imagine what it must be like for the Dev's? No matter what they do, some people get mad and freak out with serious rage. I could never be in the game design industry, I dont have thick enough skin.

To the guy who came up with the idea of breeding tribbles = I love you

To the guy who thought hitting the spacebar everytime you wanted to fire your ships weapons was a good idea = I hate you.

To the guy who fixed the moronic spacebar issue above = I love you

:D

[Archived Post]

Honestly, can you imagine what it must be like for the Dev's? No matter what they do, some people get mad and freak out with serious rage. I could never be in the game design industry, I dont have thick enough skin.

:D

Again...who cares what the devs think about anything? All of Cryptic's wounds are self-inflicted.

[Archived Post]

Honestly, can you imagine what it must be like for the Dev's? No matter what they do, some people get mad and freak out with serious rage. I could never be in the game design industry, I dont have thick enough skin.

I've been trying to convince what few friends I have in that particular industry to give serious consideration to using these forum issues as a resource. Let the community rage that constantly turns in on itself, be part of the game's experience.

I've even given a few very detailed ideas on how to achieve this.

It wouldn't fit this game or this IP. But I think the potential is there and it could be a huge step forward in the evolution of these games. Sometimes it's easier to swim with the current instead of trying to swim against it.

[Archived Post]

Honestly, can you imagine what it must be like for the Dev's? No matter what they do, some people get mad and freak out with serious rage. I could never be in the game design industry, I dont have thick enough skin.


What saddens me is that the developers are actually pretty awesome, they all seem to know what they are doing and do it well, the issue is implemetation of the ideas. Afterall, if a dev is told to fix Memory Alpha's usability but then that UI fix is advertised as a memory alpha overhaul, its not actualy the dev that fixed the UI that did a crappy job, but rather the people that decided to mislabel what had been done. Each componant of the game requires multiple people working together to create, the issue is not the quality of the componants made, but 'how' they are put together, and that lies on the games management team, since they are the ones that can see the bigger picture.

I'm seriously impressed with the hard work the devs put into the game and what they can come up with, what I'm not impressed with is how it feels that the game is missing so so much, it really needed an extra 6 months or so of development before been released, I mean how many MMO's launch without the death penalty been added? There's even content like the accolades which were in the game during beta but were removed before the game went live, the game actually launched with less content activated than it had during the beta...

[Archived Post]

I can't say it's backfired on them, I don't think anybody knows that but them (i.e., Cryptic). However, I agree completely with your comment of, " if they made it available in game... it is actually something that could have made me LOG IN TO THE GAME.," and at its heart, this is the problem IMHO with the RAF program.

Sure, they'll get more subscribers, but will those subscribers stay past the 30 days? If I want more of my friends to join I want them to stick around and play with me more than I want a snazzy new ship. Nearly all my friends are gamers, they know about STO already and the ones who haven't already signed up have refused to sign-up because in their opinion the game needs more polish, more content, and more end-game. The new trailers/teasers/Dev Videos coming out from Bioware, CCP, NetDevil, and Reakktor Media for their games hasn't helped "sell" this game to them either. I'd be shocked if other people haven't heard the same from some of their friends, but I digress...

The time and resources (again IMHO) should have been put toward in-game content, not special content for an RAF program at this point in the game's life. Like I said in other posts, I would have offered free C-Store points, free game time, and in-game titles, then I would have added the snazzier rewards later when the in-game content was in a better place.

To make a long story short, I won't even consider promoting this game, no matter what the reward, until well after Season 2 perhaps even Season 3.

I agree with you. These are points that I made clearly in the post I quote below to mirror-master, and also in this new thread (because the old one was closed) A more "civil" discussion on the RAF program (http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=155468) which essentially brings up the same points as the larger thread, but is more concise and has a decidedly different purpose.

Cryptic and/or Atari's management has decided against the majority here who took the time to respond on the forums.

But I do admit mixed feelings here. This RAF offer smells of either desperation or a preemptive strike against loosing subs. I still want STO to succeed no matter how I feel about marketing offers. Part of me hopes this works out well for Cryptic but marketing really needs to reevaluate their practices. Most of what they are doing is either divisive or unfair or both to the community.

STO and the downward spiral (http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=155358)

[COLOR="rgb(0, 255, 255)"]Despite the title... trust me, its not a doom thread.

[Archived Post]

Well, you can look at things a couple of different ways right now.

The housecleaning the forums got certainly worked.

And the increase in "I'm New, Have a Question" threads in the forums shows the free weekend is garnering some activity.

And there are quite a few threads now showing people are trying this RAF program.

I'm not so sure the case can be made that it's desperation. That the game is on its last gasp. That everything is fail.

I think this marketing gimmick, as heavy handed as it is, still works as a marketing gimmick. I know that probably still infuriates folks who would rather just buy the Galaxy X in the C-Store.

But ... that's a moot point now with the referrals already trickling in.

[Archived Post]

i know the fury at the Galaxy X being for the RAF, but we all have to remember that STO is a company, and part of keeping a company afloat is customers,


in the sale buz its called a leading product Galaxy X are the leading product for increasing the players and payers, or dose everyone want to go back to watching DVD's thinking that ST would be a good online game, if only Cryptic didnt Crash and burn, there are going to be more sales pitches over the up and comming decades << and yes i beleive STO has that kind of staying power even though we are seeing the first year >> but i do have a Hope, that peaplo will still put there words into making the game better for everyone, but also know that, Cryptic has to think about the cash flow as well and some ideas may be reschedualed or even canceled but never give up hope that the game will constantly improove

[Archived Post]

After reading some of these posts, I can see that there are a lot of unhappy people in this unline community and apparently quite a bit of bleeding. I may be a junior member, but I'm also a lifetime Star Trek fan and I will continue to play the game with all the positive and negative aspects because I'm simply having fun, period. I will continue to enjoy the game despite what faults there may be. When do executives in these corporations ever listen to the little people anyways? The same is true for my job in real life, they don't listen to the workers. They think they know whats better, (which they don't for all there education, they lack common sense and are guided by there love for money which is the root of all evil.). But hey, I still enjoy the game and will continue to do so, and I suggest maybe the rest of us should just try to enjoy it also. But in the meantime, continue with the posts, and who knows, someday they may listen when enough people have left or they simply shut the game down, which would make me very sad.

[Archived Post]

Please learn to use the [ENTER] key. On the internet, people will not read unformatted blocks of text.

[Archived Post]

I think you are right, and I've had this sneaking suspicion that things are not all rosy at the studio (in fact i heard they are not, by someone associated with them). There are in fact a lot of things I want to say, but don't for the simple consideration that they may be just as disheartened with the way things turned out as we are... but for which are beyond their control.

Not to mention the fact that there have been several high profile people who have left the company (Awen, Gozer, Daeke, Shane Hensley, and a few nameless others that have posted here and there) and some not so high profile people who have made their way to the forums to post their thoughts and how they wished things had gone differently.

There very well may be a slight sense of exhaustion on their part. As I've said before... they are forced into this position of constantly churning out light content at a fast rate because they HAVE to in order to keep the subscriber based interested. Instead of giving themselves time to breathe and a length of time to work on something grand and big on the horizon they are forced to work harder and more quickly. And for their efforst, they see a bleeding subscriber base, and a consistently unhappy forum community.

I for one will be cutting back to give them time and a break. A smart idea, or a clever one, isn't necessarily a wise idea. And I wish they would consider more carefully (or hire me, as I can work magic). While it might be wise to say to keep fighting... on the other hand I personally am getting tired. Espescially after the recent spate of being targeted and discriminated against by Phoxe... I just don't feel inclined to bring constructive ideas to the table any more.


You have some good points.

Problem is the "cutting back to give them time and a break" will end up being people leaving the game. Even temporarily is this not bad for the game?

[Archived Post]

Well, I don't know about us, but now there are plenty of people going too far whoring out the referral program for the Galaxy-X...

[Archived Post]

Well, I don't know about us, but now there are plenty of people going too far whoring out the referral program for the Galaxy-X...

Does that make the Galaxy X a Pimp mobile?

[Archived Post]

Does that make the Galaxy X a Pimp mobile?

Only if ship interiors come with leopard print texture.

[Archived Post]

Simple answer:

Persistence is key, we are the income, if the CEO can say whatever he wants, technically as a whole, we are the utmost boss. If we all, or the majority of us unsub for even a month, they will get their act together in a heart beat.
Unless they are really trying to destroy the game, which reputation would lead anyone to believe after grandfathered sci consoles.,..1.1's BIG 3, and the RAF.

...Keep up the fight.

[Archived Post]

First and foremost, the thing is hideously ugly! In this future forward Star Trek game, I would like to see more modern ship instead of rehashing the old ones. If the older ship are being used for lower level ships it make sense, but for Admiral Class ship, I would think that Star Fleet would outfit them with the best of everything. So, to the Galaxy X, I say no!

[Archived Post]

If everyone wants new ships, Cryptic should have a quarterly or a bi-annual contest for new designs. It would give us a steady flow of ship at all levels and also involve the community.

[Archived Post]

Why should we have to pay Cryptic another $5.00 or $10.00 or whatever to be able to buy a ship that gives us an advantage over other players in-game when we've already bought the box and already pay sub fees?

I wouldn't know as I have no intention of buying it or finding new subs for the game. I was just saying that it is a non-important worry.