Burst damage fix question?

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Is there going to be a fix to the issue of burst damage soon?

I see escorts more and more in PvP. Soon, I can imagine that every player who does pvp will be flying an escort. Getting inta-gibbed in 2 seconds is not good times.

They need to have the damage dropped..and their defense upped, to counter the loss.

But some actually tactical battles would be nice again, like pre season 1. The good ol' days.

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Escorts are working like they always have. Wheres the beef?

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Escorts are working like they always have. Wheres the beef?

I guess you never played pre-season 1 then.

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I guess you never played pre-season 1 then.

Yes, I have. I still doesn't see a problem. PVP wise anyway, they aren't any more powerful than they were.

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Is there going to be a fix to the issue of burst damage soon?

Yes. Snix posted about this weeks ago in the Tribble forums. dsthalh just mentioned it in the latest engineering report. Something will be getting moved onto Tribble soon that addresses this issue. And then the forum rage can shift away from the Galaxy X and firmly onto what they're going to do to burst damage, tactical buff stacking, tactical console stacking and basically everything that boosts offense so heavily in space.

As per Snix's post.

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Thanks Superchum. I will try to find it.

As for the other guy... "working as intended" lol

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Thanks Superchum. I will try to find it.

As for the other guy... "working as intended" lol

I said it seems fine to me. I am usually on the receiving end due to I don't fly escorts so unless everyone that has attacked me isn't doing something right or I haven't noticed any issue.

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Thanks Superchum. I will try to find it.

No worries. The Snix post was a few pages into a thread that didn't really seem to be about that topic going by the title. I've linked and quoted it a bunch. But it still gets lost quick.

The dstahl report is brand new today, so, it hasn't really gotten a ton of attention yet.

His list for 2.0 content in that report, for instance, addresses almost every major want or wish list the Klingon playerbase has asked for. But it might not get noticed for a few days, heh.

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You mean this part?

DPS/Global Cooldown/EPS revamp

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You mean this part?

DPS/Global Cooldown/EPS revamp

Yup. That is specifically a reference to Snix's post from awhile back.

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Yup. That is specifically a reference to Snix's post from awhile back.

You don't happen to have that link do you?

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Took a sec to find (it got buried), but ...

http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?p=2516848#post2516848

I'll quote too:

We are looking into how to reduce the excessive damage that you are currently experiencing. Some of the elements already mentioned in this thread and others are being examined, such as:

- Energy damage buff console values and that most players stack as many as they can equip
- The amount of the narrow arc damage multiplier that gets applied to cannons
- Stacking of attack patterns and their buff, debuff, crit chance, and crit severity
- Appropriate weapon power drain when firing multiple energy weapons


We're getting closer to having more specific details and getting something up on to Tribble. This is a priority.

Thanks for your patience,
-snix

It's something they're looking into and it seems we're getting closer to seeing what their investigations have come up with.

Prior to the difficulty slider, I was definitely of one strong opinion about this issue.

Post difficulty slider ... I'm far more wary of changes to PCs now that NPCs can be tuned up to do ridiculous amounts of damage.

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Thanks for bumping the other thread Super.

I am anxious to see the changes.

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Took a sec to find (it got buried), but ...

http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?p=2516848#post2516848

I'll quote too:



It's something they're looking into and it seems we're getting closer to seeing what their investigations have come up with.

Prior to the difficulty slider, I was definitely of one strong opinion about this issue.

Post difficulty slider ... I'm far more wary of changes to PCs now that NPCs can be tuned up to do ridiculous amounts of damage.

Ok, that is much clearer thanks.

However, I still disagree with the premise that escorts are CURRENTLY overpowered. I would also like to reiterate that I don't currently fly an escort. I say this because I am usually on the receiving end of escorts. I agree with the diff slider I don't think they should be monkeying around with the damage potentials because if anything the current situation has changed in terms of power stacking and boff changes.

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Yes. Snix posted about this weeks ago in the Tribble forums. dsthalh just mentioned it in the latest engineering report. Something will be getting moved onto Tribble soon that addresses this issue. And then the forum rage can shift away from the Galaxy X and firmly onto what they're going to do to burst damage, tactical buff stacking, tactical console stacking and basically everything that boosts offense so heavily in space.

As per Snix's post.

As long as they settle the problems with defensive buff stacking, defensive console stacking and basically everything that boosts the defensive aspects of space combat that make cruisers and science vessel nigh-invulnerable - I would have no problem with the Dev team balancing out Escorts.
But honestly I feel that its just going to go out-of-balance in favor of Cruiser/Science and leave the escorts in the lurch until those players complain enough to have it swung back into thier camp.
Cryptic can't seem to figure out who to make happy and they appear to be failing at making anybody happy.

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As long as they settle the problems with defensive buff stacking, defensive console stacking and basically everything that boosts the defensive aspects of space combat that make cruisers and science vessel nigh-invulnerable - I would have no problem with the Dev team balancing out Escorts.
But honestly I feel that its just going to go out-of-balance in favor of Cruiser/Science and leave the escorts in the lurch until those players complain enough to have it swung back into thier camp.
Cryptic can't seem to figure out who to make happy and they appear to be failing at making anybody happy.

That would be my worry to, but I guess the only way to influence this is to post in the respective threads and mention these concerns.

Of course, maybe we are wrong in assuming that the devs can't think of this on their own. But hey, better safe then sorry. ;)

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Escorts pre 1.1 were doing the same damage as after 1.1. What you are probably noticing is the dominating population of scis. Sci/Escort is now 10x more deadly in all aspects than a tac/escort. Besides all the sci/escorts, I see mostly Sci/Sci in all PVP matches. I have probably done 50+ easily since 1.1 came out.

GG on the new SNB game breaking beam Cryptic. What next? Force Character Delete beam?


Crit severity and Accuracy are the issue with escorts right now, have layed out a very substantial amount of reasoning and data behind this, you can just look in Tribble general or search my name.

HOWEVER, escorts have to do that more-than-designed damage because their "designed" Survivability tool that a lot of people don't even know about, doesn't work. AKA Defense, the % attached to speed. Escorts are supposed to be dodgy, compareable to rogue classes in other MMOs.

With their current reputaton, the main thing I would fear is they will probably ignore the facts and common sense and go down one of the following paths:

1 path= Nerf something stupid like arc modifiers or DHCs and DCs, or base damage. Causing an even greater shift to sci captains, however instead of cannon escorts it will be beam boat escorts, which if you know how to play are equally viable.

2nd possible path: They will say they are going to nerf escorts or a tac skill, for instance FoMM, and the only change they will make is instead of only debuffing resist, it will also log you out and lock you out until you refer a friend and they subscribe for a month.

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GG on the new SNB game breaking beam Cryptic. What next? Force Character Delete beam?


Here we go again LOL...

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That would be my worry to, but I guess the only way to influence this is to post in the respective threads and mention these concerns.

Of course, maybe we are wrong in assuming that the devs can't think of this on their own. But hey, better safe then sorry. ;)

I feel the Dev's are bright enough to know what they are doing, my fear is they will fail in doing it well. And that they will give in to the playerbase calling for a game-ruining nerf to escorts just because they don't like the dammage output from the blaster.

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We're getting to the point where we really need abilities to have separate PvE versus PvP functionality. Otherwise, every PvP balance tweak is going to cause grief to PvE play.

Guild Wars did this, and it solved many, many problems.

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We're getting to the point where we really need abilities to have separate PvE versus PvP functionality. Otherwise, every PvP balance tweak is going to cause grief to PvE play.

Guild Wars did this, and it solved many, many problems.

Yeah they just need to look at WoW and notice its the same thing thats going on in thier forums thats going on in here people min max for pvp and dominte pve players that dont know how to min/max so the pve players cry about nerfing something and then its a endless nerf cycle that fix's nothing and break allot more abilitys than fix's.

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The best defense against an escort is to kill it ...it's not hard to do ;)

,,,and I beg you ...please do not bring that twink arguement over here. PvP is what it is, either you're good at it or you're not. The fact is everyone has to go thru the pain of gearing up here.

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If you want to get rid of the escort kill it. If you want to humilate it, disable its engines or weapons and kill it after.

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The problem isnt the escorts...its the excessive buffs provided by BOs...especially from stacking various BO buffs.

Our buffs are based off of a concept of magic/super hero powers...meaning the boosts they provide just appear out of thin air. There is no intrensic cost modeled for increasing damage...plus some debuffs are just a bit extreme.

There is no direct link between damage and EPS drain...in some cases dont pay enough heed to EPS available.

Add to that the mistake of either not allowing multiple specials that are similar(attack buffs and resist debuffs) to stack...or at least severly imposing deminishing returns for stacking all those attack patterns and other tactical skills all at once.

Think about it, we can stack Attack Pattern Beta, Omega, Cannon Rapid Fire, Tactical Team and if you want, even High Yield all at the same time. Add to that Sensor Scan, and you have an abused and exploited combat model due to is short-sighted and overly simplified mechanics.

Simply put, they need to tie weapon output to EPS available and consumption...that way your buffs can never exceed the available and sustainable energy output of the ship...no magical and non-substantiated increases in weapon damage.

Also, debuffs to resists should never allow drop a target's resists below its base value...so a 1000 HP weapon shot should not be allowed to do 1200HP because its decreased the resists by 20%. Debuffs to resists should only take away from the resist buffs on the target...base defense should remain. Only criticals should hit for higher than the actually posted(seen by mousing over the weapon icon) weapon's output.

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As much as i would like to BO powers tied to energy consumption, its something that will likely never happen, as it would require to completely change the game design.

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It would be great if the "fix" to escort damage applied only in PvP and not in PVE. I hope that's possible. Otherwise, if the glass cannons are going to become less cannony they should also become proportionately less glassy.

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The problem isnt the escorts...its the excessive buffs provided by BOs...especially from stacking various BO buffs.

I agree, but its not just an Escort thing. All the classes rely too much on buffs. Escorts for dammage, Cruisers for defense and Science for thiers as well. As long as all these are needed to compete well in PvE/PvP then they will never go away or be well regulated.

It would be great if the "fix" to escort damage applied only in PvP and not in PVE. I hope that's possible. Otherwise, if the glass cannons are going to become less cannony they should also become proportionately less glassy.

I agree, if you are going to pull thier teeth out then at least make them less glassy.
My concern is how are escorts going to be a threat if the Cruisers ans Science ships can still stack defensive buffs and become nigh-invulnerable, especially if dammage is lowered?

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I agree, but its not just an Escort thing. All the classes rely too much on buffs. Escorts for dammage, Cruisers for defense and Science for thiers as well. As long as all these are needed to compete well in PvE/PvP then they will never go away or be well regulated.



I agree, if you are going to pull thier teeth out then at least make them less glassy.
My concern is how are escorts going to be a threat if the Cruisers ans Science ships can still stack defensive buffs and become nigh-invulnerable, especially if dammage is lowered?

Yeah which is why the damage is fine where it is now people just need to learn that most cases 1vs1 against a escourt you are going to die most of the time. That is why you dont move around alone if you are a cruiser/science vessel. Trying to balance pvp around 1vs1 wont work, and will just ruin things.

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Yeah which is why the damage is fine where it is now people just need to learn that most cases 1vs1 against a escourt you are going to die most of the time.

And this quote more than proves that there is an imbalance and the ridiculous mentality behind it. If it was balanced, it would be a 50/50.

You just more than proved the point that this crap is out of whack.

Because if you think the defiant could 1 shot the Enterprise E, you need to pick your butt up and go play Star Wars....where 1 shot's belong.

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Sure burst damage is a little out of whack, but it is kinda all escorts have going for them. If escorts are going to get a damage nerf then they are going to need a toughness buff. Right now escorts are one trick ponies and if you take that one trick away without giving anything else it will result in overall loss of players.

I agree with the whole stacking of buffs being the problem. I ran a few tests the other day when a guildie and I ended up on different teams in the borg daily zone. We flew up and tried a few scenarios. Him being a heavy offense escort and my in a heavy defense science ship. Given the opportunity to stack all of his stuff on me and engage at 10km I had to have absolute split second timing to avoid being killed on the first pass. However, once that first pass failed I could usually come out on top or at least really close (nearly a 50/50 situation). The damage was incredible. Tens of thousands of damage on the initial volly of cannons/turrets and thens of thousands more when the torpedoes hit. If there was a single crit on the cannons or torps it was impossible to survive. Pressing the space bar once and watching your victim die just isn't star trek. The star trek feel is burning bridges, consoles blowing up, parts of the ship falling off into space and still fighting on. Battles are measured in minutes or hours not in seconds or fractions of seconds. One click of the cannon rapid fire and hundreds of lives are lost.

Also, the cookie cutter builds. 3 cannon escorts, stacking all of one type of tactical console (disruptor damage) and one type of engineering console (EPS why take anything else?). Find a way to make it useful to put a mix of consoles on an escort, or something other than just stacking one thing into the stratosphere and doing 35k+ damage on a single click of the space bar.

I say don't change damage and stacking, just increase base hull amounts by 2x and maybe shield cap by 50% without increasing healing or regen. That will remove the one shot passes but DPS > HPS which will result in people dying its just going to take more than one press of the spacebar and give escorts more survivability at the same time. Also with a higher ratio of hull to shields more hull damaging weapons like torpedoes will become viable against the classic (put as many cannons on as possible).

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I cant rmember if i said this also...but I think we need to also see weapon cool downs increased. If everybody shot less, then even an Escort could survive in battle longer and make better use of their best defensive asset...maneuvering.


So even though escorts could still be pound for pound the hardest hitters, they wouldnt and couldnt get it all in within 2 secs to pop a Cruiser...nor could any other ship ship deliver so much as too pop an escort in a matter seconds either.

Longer weapon cool downs would give us all(regardless of class) time to maneuver out of enemy weapon arcs, allow us to bring to bear fresh shield arcs and allow us to more easily utilize defensive buffs...def buffs which would no longer need to be so big themselves.

Take of defensive buffs and make them last longer, buff less and have much longer cool downs themselves.

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And this quote more than proves that there is an imbalance and the ridiculous mentality behind it. If it was balanced, it would be a 50/50.

You just more than proved the point that this crap is out of whack.

Because if you think the defiant could 1 shot the Enterprise E, you need to pick your butt up and go play Star Wars....where 1 shot's belong.

OK so I take it you think science ships should be able to do the same dps as a escort even tho the purpose behind both ships are very much different different or even a cruiser for that matter? If you want 1VS1pvp gopLay a fps or a total war title game where you can actually 1v1 pvp to your hearts content. Escorts should not be able to support as well as a cruiser just like cruiser should not be that great at damage as a escort.

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I say don't change damage and stacking, just increase base hull amounts by 2x and maybe shield cap by 50% without increasing healing or regen. That will remove the one shot passes but DPS > HPS which will result in people dying its just going to take more than one press of the spacebar and give escorts more survivability at the same time. Also with a higher ratio of hull to shields more hull damaging weapons like torpedoes will become viable against the classic (put as many cannons on as possible).

I think thats the best solution I have heard so far and would most likely be the best option to go with, seeing as the other option's would most likely just break more things than it fixed.

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OK so I take it you think science ships should be able to do the same dps as a escort even tho the purpose behind both ships are very much different different or even a cruiser for that matter? If you want 1VS1pvp gopLay a fps or a total war title game where you can actually 1v1 pvp to your hearts content. Escorts should not be able to support as well as a cruiser just like cruiser should not be that great at damage as a escort.
Well, the thread is about burst damage, not DPS. Burst damage means damage it can inflict in a very short time. This damage might not be sustainable. At the moment, it is not sustainable, but it doesn't have to be sustained, since ships will fall under the burst. The trick is giving ships that don't have the capacity for this burst damage the ability to survive it. Beyond that, you have to balance DPS and defnse/resistance/hull/shields in a way so that the overall win rate is equal - but the optimal strategy for each ship would not be the same. The Escorts would focus on attack runs where it can benefit from its burst capabilities, cruisers and science ships by steadily engaging an enemy and surviving by using buffs, heal or control effects to mitigate damage.

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Speaking of equality; How many times in the movies or in one of the TV shows did we see the day saved by a Science ship? How many times has a character uttered the phrase, " Thanks be to God - we are saved! The science ship is here!".
The only thing I remember from the series is in TNG; All Good Things - That science vessel about to die to three Klingons.
SO why does a science vessel need to be able to DPS like an escort again? SHouldn't a science vessels abilities and combat effectiveness lie in other areas?

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Speaking of equality; How many times in the movies or in one of the TV shows did we see the day saved by a Science ship? How many times has a character uttered the phrase, " Thanks be to God - we are saved! The science ship is here!".
The only thing I remember from the series is in TNG; All Good Things - That science vessel about to die to three Klingons.
SO why does a science vessel need to be able to DPS like an escort again? SHouldn't a science vessels abilities and combat effectiveness lie in other areas?

Star Trek Voyager comes to mind, in which Voyager is technically a science ship.

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Star Trek Voyager comes to mind, in which Voyager is technically a science ship.

Funny I always thought it was cruiser. It sure functioned like one.

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OK so I take it you think science ships should be able to do the same dps as a escort even tho the purpose behind both ships are very much different different or even a cruiser for that matter? If you want 1VS1pvp gopLay a fps or a total war title game where you can actually 1v1 pvp to your hearts content. Escorts should not be able to support as well as a cruiser just like cruiser should not be that great at damage as a escort.

a 50/50 ratio does not mean that the other ship does as much DAMAGE as the other. You see,... and I am sure you can't... the idea is that where one does damage, the other does debuffs or the other does defenses. This is called "balance". Not everything is balanced with a big pile of damage.

You sound like a caveman "Gronk Smash"... pretty stupid.

You need to think a bit more before you speak.

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Voyager generally engaged smaller class vessels...it tended to run from larger classes...especially early on in the show. It basically fought and defeated frigate sized ships through straight fire power. It eluded or disabled larger class ships

Voyager rarly ever survived through pure firepower when up against stronger foes...generally through skillful use of other, non-conventional means. Voyager always survived against stronger foes using science and other innovative means.

There was the occasional tricobalt torpedo...but thats a offensive power inherit in the ordnance, not the so much the ship.

Science ships should not be smashing foes into oblivion. They should be using non-martial means to aid in defeating or at least surviving against foes.

So Science vessels should be mitigating enemy DPS through dampning, shield resists, sensor disruption, etc. This should allow them to viably survive and disengage from larger threats and wear down and potentially defeat near equal threats.

Science is currently plagued with limited ability to disengage threats. There is no incentive, consideration or model created to allow Science vessels to disengage in PvP...why? Because its a pointless and purposeless "play date" of arena style gladiator matches. Objective based, RvR, territory control through use of numerous open star systems means Science vessels might be able to think like Science vessels and not be forced to play and think like an escort in nerdy clothing because the mechanics of content wont only be combat.

Once the content is more diverse and accepting of the Science role as not just a combatant. Then we can see Science vessels benefiting from specials that can be less gimmicky and short term.

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Voyager generally engaged smaller class vessels...it tended to run from larger classes...especially early on in the show. It basically fought and defeated frigate sized ships through straight fire power. It eluded or disabled larger class ships

Voyager rarly ever survived through pure firepower when up against stronger foes...generally through skillful use of other, non-conventional means. Voyager always survived against stronger foes using science and other innovative means.

There was the occasional tricobalt torpedo...but thats a offensive power inherit in the ordnance, not the so much the ship.

Science ships should not be smashing foes into oblivion. They should be using non-martial means to aid in defeating or at least surviving against foes.

So Science vessels should be mitigating enemy DPS through dampning, shield resists, sensor disruption, etc. This should allow them to viably survive and disengage from larger threats and wear down and potentially defeat near equal threats.

Science is currently plagued with limited ability to disengage threats. There is no incentive, consideration or model created to allow Science vessels to disengage in PvP...why? Because its a pointless and purposeless "play date" of arena style gladiator matches. Objective based, RvR, territory control through use of numerous open star systems means Science vessels might be able to think like Science vessels and not be forced to play and think like an escort in nerdy clothing because the mechanics of content wont only be combat.

Once the content is more diverse and accepting of the Science role as not just a combatant. Then we can see Science vessels benefiting from specials that can be less gimmicky and short term.

I'd make the trade in a heartbeat if the terms were Nerfing SNB, but buffing science ships.
It's already an obvious problem that whether it be leveling an alt or in a PVP mission I see more sci captains than any other captain type now... and I even see more sci/escort than i do tac/escort... which explanation is obvious.

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But lessening the dammage capability of escorts is balancing? Effectivily taking away thier only purpose is balancing? Wow this logic got circular and self-serving very quick.

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I'd make the trade in a heartbeat if the terms were Nerfing SNB, but buffing science ships.
It's already an obvious problem that whether it be leveling an alt or in a PVP mission I see more sci captains than any other captain type now... and I even see more sci/escort than i do tac/escort... which explanation is obvious.

Unfortunatly, it appears they made a special that was exclusive to one profession and they made it the most effective, far reachinga nd game mechanic altering skill in game.

How do you create an exclusive skill that neutralizes every other skill set and specials in game...especially when the game is overly dependenat on skill sets and specials? Short sighted...period.

EDIT:
SNB would be still effective, but a lot less overly imposing if it out current skills/buffs on stand-by instead of turning them off. By putting them on stand-by, their time cycle could continue to run until the expire...but the use of Science Team could be used to cancel out SNB and return the specials and buffs to being active for the remainder of their activation cycle.

That way, SNB would be reducing the effectivness of skills and Buffs, not removing them entirly...unless the target is unfortunate enough not to have Science Team...or has Science Team on cool down when hit with SNB(its very likly many skills would have expired while on stand-by before Sci Team was made available again).

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But lessening the dammage capability of escorts is balancing? Effectivily taking away thier only purpose is balancing? Wow this logic got circular and self-serving very quick.

The damage reduction I am talking about (Crit severity and Accuracy) would be balanced with the Defense gain escorts get. It is unarguable defense, or dodge, is supposed to be the main survivability tool for escorts.

With Accuracy nerf and Defense cap raise even if slight, it will make defense viable.
Accuracy feeds into crit severity as well at a certain point, and crit severity is the modifer that makes the 20-90k crits possible.


This is even more balanced because escorts can achieve current capped defense with hyper impulse engines and only 50-55 actual engine power (not set engine power), and at a raised cap, even if only 5%, escorts coulld reach it by increasing engine power by only 5-10 points. Furthermore for other ships to reach the current cap in defense they have to devote all or almost all power to engines 80-100 set. This is balanced because with such a setting they severely diminish weapon power settings and shield power settings, so not only will they be weak but do "tickle" damage. Lastly with the cap raised, it would make it a value that other ship types could not reach and only escorts can, increasing the diversity greater.

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a 50/50 ratio does not mean that the other ship does as much DAMAGE as the other. You see,... and I am sure you can't... the idea is that where one does damage, the other does debuffs or the other does defenses. This is called "balance". Not everything is balanced with a big pile of damage.

You sound like a caveman "Gronk Smash"... pretty stupid.

You need to think a bit more before you speak.

again a 50/50 ratio mean balancing pvp around 1v1 which is stupid and you should not balance pvp that way at all. thanks for the insult nice to know I got you mad so you start flinging insults around. Like I said before go play a fps if you want balanced 1vs1 combat because in MMO's you cannont do that w/o really breaking other things in the proces.

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The damage reduction I am talking about (Crit severity and Accuracy) would be balanced with the Defense gain escorts get. It is unarguable defense, or dodge, is supposed to be the main survivability tool for escorts.


If its supposed to be the main survivability tool for escorts then why do all ships that can reach a speed of 26 I.E. All ships.
get the same defense?

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Unfortunatly, it appears they made a special that was exclusive to one profession and they made it the most effective, far reachinga nd game mechanic altering skill in game.

How do you create an exclusive skill that neutralizes every other skill set and specials in game...especially when the game is overly dependenat on skill sets and specials? Short sighted...period.

EDIT:
SNB would be still effective, but a lot less overly imposing if it out current skills/buffs on stand-by instead of turning them off. By putting them on stand-by, their time cycle could continue to run until the expire...but the use of Science Team could be used to cancel out SNB and return the specials and buffs to being active for the remainder of their activation cycle.

That way, SNB would be reducing the effectivness of skills and Buffs, not removing them entirly...unless the target is unfortunate enough not to have Science Team...or has Science Team on cool down when hit with SNB(its very likly many skills would have expired while on stand-by before Sci Team was made available again).

I could live with that version of SNB. That would make science team an ACTUAL counter to SNB.
/Sign

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If things keep getting nerfed in the name of PvP balance STO is going to die.

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If things keep getting nerfed in the name of PvP balance STO is going to die.

There's balance? When did this happen?

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again a 50/50 ratio mean balancing pvp around 1v1 which is stupid and you should not balance pvp that way at all. thanks for the insult nice to know I got you mad so you start flinging insults around. Like I said before go play a fps if you want balanced 1vs1 combat because in MMO's you cannont do that w/o really breaking other things in the proces.

Balancing 1 v 1 is a starting point that is a great guide to overall balance. Most games do it this way. At least good ones. From there it becomes teamwork and strategy that define the winner and loser.

Not, "I am flying escort, you are flying "X" ... I win."

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Balancing 1 v 1 is a starting point that is a great guide to overall balance. Most games do it this way. At least good ones. From there it becomes teamwork and strategy that define the winner and loser.

Not, "I am flying escort, you are flying "X" ... I win."

I have never played a other pvp game where there was 1vs1 balance strictly because then there would only be 1 class and everyone would have the same ability's. And No i dont fly a escort I fly a star cruiser and can actually hold my own against most escorts till help arrives tho some tear through me like a knife through butter but they greatly reduce survival for that kind of damage in short stay in a group and make sure you are with people that will support you.

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Funny I always thought it was cruiser. It sure functioned like one.

The desctinction between "Science Ship", "Cruiser" and "Escort" is very artificial, I think. In the shows, only the Defiant got called an Escort.

The Enterprise D is a cruiser, but they solved problems with a mix of science and engineering often enough.

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I have never played a other pvp game where there was 1vs1 balance strictly because then there would only be 1 class and everyone would have the same ability's. And No i dont fly a escort I fly a star cruiser and can actually hold my own against most escorts till help arrives tho some tear through me like a knife through butter but they greatly reduce survival for that kind of damage in short stay in a group and make sure you are with people that will support you.

Really? You have never played WoW or Guild Wars.

Because I can gurantee you that you can duel people and .. GHASP... you will find that there is a pretty solid balance (more so in Guild Wars), give or take a few power/build differences.

A mage can beat a warrior..and a warrior can beat a mage. Given equal player skill, it will come out to about 50/50.

Close battles are better than ones that are one sided. My best friend designs RPG video games for a living.. even worked on MMO's. They balance test a lot by dueling.

And yes, I can do well enough. I can post screen shots I have of many battles where I do 40-0 and a million damage in my cruiser. What I am talking about here is a mechanism of overall balance. Things can be tweaked.. and I said TWEAKED.. not massively changed.. up or down a bit to balance the effect with other powers. I think we can all agree here that certain powers are lacking and others are very powerful. Instead of a nerf of these powers, how about raising up the weaker ones to match the effectiveness of the stronger.

But to rule out 1v1 to test balance issues.... unwise.

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The desctinction between "Science Ship", "Cruiser" and "Escort" is very artificial, I think. In the shows, only the Defiant got called an Escort.

The Enterprise D is a cruiser, but they solved problems with a mix of science and engineering often enough.

True true, in reality thier was little seperation of function in the genre unless it was required for story continuity. Otherwise it seems Cruisers were king.
In form and function though the Voyager was designed more as a light, fast moving cruiser and only had science as a secondary function, instead of being a science vessel pure in design.

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The damage reduction I am talking about (Crit severity and Accuracy) would be balanced with the Defense gain escorts get. It is unarguable defense, or dodge, is supposed to be the main survivability tool for escorts.


I'm talking about the base dammage and destructive capabilities of the Escort. I don't feel cannons should be weakened on a design level. Beams have several advantages over cannons that make up for the high dammage that cannons crank out. Crit severity and accuracy are fine to tweak towards a more realistic game mechanic, but not so much that they cripple a functioning design.

In CB my cry for change was to increase the inherent defensive characteristics of the escort but give them much lower hullpoints. I felt this would demostrate the toughness of the class without making them unkillable.


As for the belief that balanced 1v1 combat is the aspect to design towards. I disagree. It doesn't make sense in a military design aspect. Example: the JSTARS and the EC-121 are both military radar and surveilance planes in the US AirForce, both science in the purest definition of the term. It doesn't make sense to say that these planes should be able to function in combat as well as say the F-22 Raptor.
They are not designed for the same function and one wouldn't expect the rules to be changed to allow them to behave so. Thats like saying my kid should be able play pro football, so everyone over his age should play on thier knees to compensate and allow him the same abilities as they posses.
As it stands the inherent differences of each class is slowly being eroded and changed for the sake of a balncing act that shouldn't be.

I can understand why such 1v1 balancing seems good in a mmo. It keeps players from complaining with validity that thier choice of class is less capable than another and it works (almost) in most mmo's. I don't think that should be the case for STO and its design. Its time to break the mold and move away from existing archetypes. I would never exopect an escort to debuff as well as a science vessel, a cruiser to nimbley dodge incomming fire or a science vessel to blast away like an escort. Each vessel should have definate strengths inherent to their design and function that the others do not posses, otherwise we are all just playing the same character wrapped in different skins.

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I am not sure if the damage output is what is wrong with the "OP escorts" image right now. The thing people do not like is being killed in under 3 seconds. That is not fun AT ALL.

If they keep the ratios the same but just reduce all damage and all defense by 25-50% then we would all last a little longer and have a fun tactical game, instead of this twitchy "I shot first so I win" garbage that is on now.

An escort/dps ship vs. sci/cruise/tank ship should be a good fight. Not a indestructable tank or a unsurviorable dps barrage.

The escort should survive by the tanks not being able to do alot of dmg and having a hard time hitting the quick ships.
The tanks should survive by tanking the dps and the result 1v1 should be a 50/50 outcome provided equal pilot skill and setup.

But the DPS of an escort should not kill me before the animations of my tank specials can even finish and be applied to my ship. It is silly that the instant an escort is within 10k and I hit Jam sensors the inbound shots not cut off by Jam sensors is enough to kill me.

So please, do not just nerf escort damage. Just find a way to make the fight feel like a fight and not such a one sided affair.

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I can understand why such 1v1 balancing seems good in a mmo. It keeps players from complaining with validity that thier choice of class is less capable than another and it works (almost) in most mmo's. I don't think that should be the case for STO and its design. Its time to break the mold and move away from existing archetypes. I would never exopect an escort to debuff as well as a science vessel, a cruiser to nimbley dodge incomming fire or a science vessel to blast away like an escort. Each vessel should have definate strengths inherent to their design and function that the others do not posses, otherwise we are all just playing the same character wrapped in different skins.

No, they would not have the same abilities as others. That is in no way what I mean. I am saying the EFFECTIVENESS of power X = power Y

You don't have to cross roles. You just have to make sure that the options presented for the other classes are equally viable.

You can do this without making everything the same.

Different, but equally powerful.

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I am not sure if the damage output is what is wrong with the "OP escorts" image right now. The thing people do not like is being killed in under 3 seconds. That is not fun AT ALL.

If they keep the ratios the same but just reduce all damage and all defense by 25-50% then we would all last a little longer and have a fun tactical game, instead of this twitchy "I shot first so I win" garbage that is on now.

An escort/dps ship vs. sci/cruise/tank ship should be a good fight. Not a indestructable tank or a unsurviorable dps barrage.

The escort should survive by the tanks not being able to do alot of dmg and having a hard time hitting the quick ships.
The tanks should survive by tanking the dps and the result 1v1 should be a 50/50 outcome provided equal pilot skill and setup.

But the DPS of an escort should not kill me before the animations of my tank specials can even finish and be applied to my ship. It is silly that the instant an escort is within 10k and I hit Jam sensors the inbound shots not cut off by Jam sensors is enough to kill me.

So please, do not just nerf escort damage. Just find a way to make the fight feel like a fight and not such a one sided affair.

I agree the little escorts should do the most damage just not instakill an unbuffed target. Its not so much the DPS, its the initial burst that is the problem.

As for balance issues and such I really don't feel its that bad in this game and it is much better than it was for launch. I see people comparing STO balance (3 months live), to Guild wars (years live) and WoW(years live) balance. That is an unfair comparison. From the MMOs I've played this one has some of the most responsive devs I have seen and the changes since launch have been fantastic.

As much as complain about balance in this game it is far better than a lot of other PvP MMOs out there.

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Really? You have never played WoW or Guild Wars.

Because I can gurantee you that you can duel people and .. GHASP... you will find that there is a pretty solid balance (more so in Guild Wars), give or take a few power/build differences.

A mage can beat a warrior..and a warrior can beat a mage. Given equal player skill, it will come out to about 50/50.

Close battles are better than ones that are one sided. My best friend designs RPG video games for a living.. even worked on MMO's. They balance test a lot by dueling.

And yes, I can do well enough. I can post screen shots I have of many battles where I do 40-0 and a million damage in my cruiser. What I am talking about here is a mechanism of overall balance. Things can be tweaked.. and I said TWEAKED.. not massively changed.. up or down a bit to balance the effect with other powers. I think we can all agree here that certain powers are lacking and others are very powerful. Instead of a nerf of these powers, how about raising up the weaker ones to match the effectiveness of the stronger.

But to rule out 1v1 to test balance issues.... unwise.

NOt guild wars but wow specifically says they dont balance pvp around 1vs1 so cant really use that example. OR at least thats the bs they fed paladins.