Hybrids (example - Tac / Cruiser, Sci / Escort, Eng/Sci)

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Since the release of Star Trek Online there has been countless threads asking - DOES "X" CAPTAIN TYPE WORK WITH "X" SHIP ?


LIST #1. - WHICH HYBRIDS ARE THE MOST EFFECTIVE
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Tactical Captain / Cruiser

Science Captain / Escort (Raptor)



LIST #2. - WHICH HYBRIDS ARE THE LEAST EFFECTIVE
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Science Captain / Cruiser

Engineering Captain / Escort

Tactical Captain / Science



I would like to open a discussion on the topic that will hopefully become a helpful reference and compilation of experience PvP player and PvP fleet opinions on the subject.

I will start the topic off by addressing the first ship on the list.


Ship hybrid 1 - Tactical Captain / Cruiser
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PROS: Extremely viable sustained DPS. Burst capabilities vs. a non-shielded target can be surprising because of Torpedo crit + APA + HYT. Very effective survivability and support capabilities. Survivability and support capabilities will increase once tradable BOs become available. Best captain type for Cruisers in terms of maneuverability thanks to APA. Arguably the easiest ship type to fully benefit from GO DOWN FIGHTING!

CONS: Damage wise without an Engineer's EPS you have to figure out how to make up +25 weapons power. Plan your weapon loadouts, Engineering ship consoles, and skills wisely to compensate. Decrease in survivability because of no EPS Transfer (TSS / Shield resist), RSF, Miracle worker and lack of level III ET BO ability. Slightly lower support capability for now because of non-tradable BOs and EPS Transfer.

OVERALL: This is one of the most viable hybrids in the game if you plan your skills and layout your weapons / components correctly. More flexible in pug PvP then engineering captain / cruiser combo and still very viable in premade PVP. If you're looking for a hybrid combo that can pack a punch over time while staying in the fight and supporting the team look no further.

Personally I find the Tac vs. eng debate to me as a personal preference between this -

APA, FOMM, GO DOWN FIGHTING! vs. EPS Transfer and Engineering Team III with the biggest difference being APA vs. EPS Transfer.

Engineering level III BO abilities are going to be tradable soon so not much to worry about there long term.


Ship hybrid 2 - Science Captain / Escort (Raptor)
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PROS: SNB, SNB, SNB. Did I mention SNB? One of the last potential "I WIN" moves in the game. Couple that with the fact you're running DHC + Buffs and it's arguably the best way of taking most ships and noobs instantly down in 1v1. Toss in the fact you're in a ship that can field TSS III ! DHC + Buffs - APA = still pwns! You give up FOMM however you gain SENSOR Scan. One of the best resistance debuffs in the game. Survivability, which is never bad to have if you're in an escort!, is increased with dampening field. And how annoying is Photonic Fleet? APA movement bonus isn't as important since you're already in a ship with a high turn rate.

CONS: APA, APA, APA. Yes even though you have SNB your damage will be lower overall in group pvp. That little bit of extra damage could make all the difference especially if you already have a science captain or two in your group. You lose out on Tactical initiative also recharging your abilities.

OVERALL: It's never bad to bring more SNB to the fight especially when it's arguably the best captain ability currently available in the game. Add in the fact you're also bring an additional TSS III and you can see why this hybrid has instant appeal for many players. VM and FBP aren't as sought after as they used to be making this hybrid a valid choice particular in pugs, 1v1, and zone PvP.


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I leveled a Tac to try the Tac/Cruiser

Few things,

Like you said
CONS:
It lacks Engineering Team 3, which itself made me not want to pilot a cruiser on my Tac anymore.
Offensive Engineering slots are less than effective (DEM, Boarding Party)

PROS:
You benefit from efficient engines greatly - whereas a Tac/Escort requires MK X engines
Calling targets VIA a cruiser is much easier than on an escort who is constantly maneuvering
Increased survivability due to the common statement "kill escorts first" this also leads to an easier time calling targets - since your... still alive


:D

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Wouldn't an Engineer in an escort be an effective combination? Miracle worker (situational I know) + Rotate Shield Frequency + EPS Power Transfer + Nadion Inversion could make for a more robust Escort Captain I thought. I've been seeing alot more Engineers in escorts these days.

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I leveled a Tac to try the Tac/Cruiser

Few things,

Like you said
CONS:
It lacks Engineering Team 3, which itself made me not want to pilot a cruiser on my Tac anymore.
Offensive Engineering slots are less than effective (DEM, Boarding Party)


Boarding Party III is available via Exchange bridge officers.

Also according to the old 1.0 version chart from this link http://sto.nexsoft.de/ - TACTICAL officer skills actually modified the Boarding Party ability. Weird since it is an engineering ability even though it does sound like a Tactical Team is going in and kicking butt! lol He currently has no abilities listed probably because it hasn't been verified or verified recently. I remember Minimax testing this a few months ago and saying that Tactical Ground skill - Security modified it.

Although I cannot verify any of the Tactical skill point effectiveness however because I have not tested it with those parameters in mind.


DEM III last time I checked is bugged and can by trained by anyone who puts 9 points into the appropriate Engineering Skill.


Wouldn't an Engineer in an escort be an effective combination? Miracle worker (situational I know) + Rotate Shield Frequency + EPS Power Transfer + Nadion Inversion could make for a more robust Escort Captain I thought. I've been seeing alot more Engineers in escorts these days.


I think it's horrible compared to the other two captain combinations for a few reasons.


#1. Damage is lower because of no Sensor Scan, FOMM, APA, or GDF.

#2. Damage is lower and players survive because of no SNB

#3. RSF doesn't matter as much because of TSS and if your RSP is down an Escort is going burn through your shields regardless especially if they're using DHC + Tactical buffs. Also if you get SNB RSF doesn't matter but you could say that about a lot of other abilities too.

#4. EPS Power Transfer is meh for Escorts. If you plan your loadout properly as well as your skills power isn't an issue. If you're in an escort you sure as hell better not be thinking you're support either lol.

#5. Nadion Inversion - see above.


Bottom line it's just a really bad combo in my opinion.

Lower damage, class support capabilities / power increases irrelevant for escort mostly, and RSF isn't enough to make up for what you lose.

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Wouldn't an Engineer in an escort be an effective combination?

Yes, in Season 1.1 Engineers can play every ship well - both Fed and Klingon.

Optimal in Star Cruisers as a healer and Fleet Escorts as DPS on Fed side, while optimal in BoP as DPS and battlecruisers as healer on Klingon side.

Anyone who says otherwise is not a very good Engineer IMO, or has non-optimal specs.

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I think it's horrible compared to the other two captain combinations for a few reasons.


#1. Damage is lower because of no Sensor Scan, FOMM, APA, or GDF.

#2. Damage is lower and players survive because of no SNB

#3. RSF doesn't matter as much because of TSS and if your RSP is down an Escort is going burn through your shields regardless especially if they're using DHC + Tactical buffs. Also if you get SNB RSF doesn't matter but you could say that about a lot of other abilities too.

#4. EPS Power Transfer is meh for Escorts. If you plan your loadout properly as well as your skills power isn't an issue. If you're in an escort you sure as hell better not be thinking you're support either lol.

#5. Nadion Inversion - see above.


Bottom line it's just a really bad combo in my opinion.

MUCH lower damage, class support capabilities / power increases irrelevant for escort mostly, and RSF isn't enough to make up for what you lose.

mmm but some folk seem to get it right. I have seen some engineer's in escorts/BoP pull off insane damage+kills. They just seem to be able to do far more sustained DPS than I can. Fair enough my burst damage is higher as a TAC, but I'm usually focused and toast before too long or I need to bug out. Engineers seem to have a bit more staying power from what I have seen.

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In general, I agree.

But I want to point out that nobody should generalize my general observations about a general statement. :p

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mmm but some folk seem to get it right. I have seen some engineer's in escorts/BoP pull off insane damage+kills. They just seem to be able to do far more sustained DPS than I can. Fair enough my burst damage is higher as a TAC, but I'm usually focused and toast before too long or I need to bug out. Engineers seem to have a bit more staying power from what I have seen.

While there is something to be said about the awesome power of DHC + CRF (regardless of Captain type) - I honestly don't see the additional "staying power" with an engineer in an escort for reasons previously listed.

I'm not saying that you can't do some damage with that combo because let's face it the real star of the show is DHC + CRF.

However you just don't benefit NEARLY as much as an engineer as would with a tac in an escort.


If the engineering captain abilities are giving you that much more staying power it's not because they're good it's because the other team is really bad and allowing them to make a difference.

You probably would have even stayed alive vs. that team or player without the engineering abilities and just have killed them that much faster as a tac.

Also if your engineer / escort is doing comparable DPS to that of a tactical captain then I would kick that tactical captain out of your fleet immediately.

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Wouldn't an Engineer in an escort be an effective combination? Miracle worker (situational I know) + Rotate Shield Frequency + EPS Power Transfer + Nadion Inversion could make for a more robust Escort Captain I thought. I've been seeing alot more Engineers in escorts these days.

I've found that engi/escort can work out well. Honestly, I think all the class/ship combos can be effective because they just lead to different playstyles/loadouts. An engi/escort for example may end up focusing as a secondary DPS machine, focusing on TSS and survivability to be more strategic than a spike damage tac/escort.

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A simple fix now would be to allow your BOs to advance to higher rank so you would have access to more powers. A have a fleet escort and have been trying to get the right skills for my BOs. I would easily have the right skills if I was able to promote my science and engineering officers above LT and Ensign. As compared to science and cruisers with more BO slots the tac/fleet escort only gives a slight edge with an ensign slot in engineering and the advanced escort gives you an ensign in science. If you had a CMDR or Lt CMDR slot you would be able to have a better configuration and build. I hate to come up against a Klingon battleship which can siphon my energy and drop my shields in seconds despite my own buffs and debuffs. I have to constantly experiment at the skills store and with my own extra BOs to try to get the right counters that others are using in the game. Even TSS I and energy siphon I did not help. Weapons show that Cannon are great especially tetryon and polaron weapons that punch holes in shields and drain power. If someone hit me with a Viral Matrix IIII I may recover enough to attack back. I feel we need to be able to advance BO skills more than is currently allowed in the game.

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#1. Damage is lower because of no Sensor Scan, FOMM, APA, or GDF.

#2. Damage is lower and players survive because of no SNB

#3. RSF doesn't matter as much because of TSS and if your RSP is down an Escort is going burn through your shields regardless especially if they're using DHC + Tactical buffs. Also if you get SNB RSF doesn't matter but you could say that about a lot of other abilities too.

#4. EPS Power Transfer is meh for Escorts. If you plan your loadout properly as well as your skills power isn't an issue. If you're in an escort you sure as hell better not be thinking you're support either lol.

#5. Nadion Inversion - see above.

Bottom line it's just a really bad combo in my opinion.

MUCH lower damage, class support capabilities / power increases irrelevant for escort mostly, and RSF isn't enough to make up for what you lose.

This is speculative, at best.

#1 RSF + EPtS gives higher resist to shields than Sensor Scan removes. FOMM, APA, or GDF are all great abilities for high DPS, but Engineers have options too.

#2 Or higher because of EPS III, as Engineers can use heavier weapons with no power loss.

#3 TSS is available to everyone, and I'd rather have EPS III than be without if both groups are using TSS. This is advantage Engineer, not disadvantage.

#4 You have greater options for loadout as an Engineer in an escort because you have more power available to you. Power is a limiting factor for Science and Tactical - not Engineers. Thus Engineers have more options here.

#5 It is nice when it is available, but that long cooldown sucks ass and offers barely marginal assistance over the duration of a match, so this point you win in spades.

There are several reasons an Engineer in Season 1.1 does very well in Escorts. It begins with an escort beign able to take better advantage of the added bonus to shield power.

#1 More power to everything. The boost from EPS III to Engine power is very nice for an engineer because it improves turn rate, adds an additional 5% shield resist, and increases base defense (all of which stack). When you start stacking Hazard Emitters, Engineer Team I, Science Team II, EPtS I, RSF, and RSP I an Engineer in a Fleet Escort has serious survivability with no loss to DPS. Throw in a Miracle Worker and and Engineer escort can survive when others can't.

Keep in mind that the difference in DPS is marginal in most cases, the difference between dealing 50K in a single pass with all buffs and 55K in a single pass with all buffs - both are enough to pop any ship. Engineers in Escorts are more likely to overcome TSS III more easily than Tacticals or Science - indeed if EPS III is constantly being used, TSS III will impact an Engineer 33% less than Tacticals or Science in Escorts, particularly since Engineers are optimal in Fleet Escorts which have an extra Ensign slot for EPtS I (~17 more shield power).

#2 Better Resists - Rotate Shield Frequency is very useful defending against cruisers and science ships. The 50% resistance to all damage to shields makes those ships, who already deal damage at a slower rate, DPS at half effectiveness for 30 seconds. That is a big deal, because it changes how they would usually attack the escort.

When you start stacking the survivability factor into an escort by an engineer you will find the DPS difference between a Tactical/Science and Engineer in an escort is marginal, at best. The skills can stack, under certain circumstances, to give the Escort an extra round of offensive buffs in a firefight, longer time between heals for healers, and other benefits that other escorts cannot offer.

I think you need to go back and test Ninja. You've missed something in your analysis. If you'd like to see what I've done to make my Fed Engineer one nasty mfer in an escort, find me in game. Most of my Klingon Science and Tactical friends, many of which are named in the best pvp list thread, won't fight my escort 1v1 anymore in a cap and hold because they have learned the hard way they will lose that fight more than they win it with their BoP.

By the way, the BoP is also great for a DPS Engineer, for the same survivability reasons. 1v1 / face to face - the Engineer Escort/BoP will survive more often than the Science/Tactical Escort/BoP - and that includes when SNB is used because Engineers with RSF doesn't need RSP to handle the alpha strike of an enemy Escort/BoP, thus have RSP available after SNB is used (unlike their counterparts).

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Buffed up sensor scan its "almost" as good as APA, if we forget about crits for a second :)

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Not that there are many but no competitive PvP team like Section 31 or DOB would field an Engineer / Escort against each other. Maybe for fun vs. an inexperienced premade or pugs.

The Engineering benefits are still meager for that class of ship vs. decent players and are more focused for 1v1 encounters almost exclusively. Overall Engineering buffs are just not as effective as Tactical buffs in an escort for most situations.

EPS Transfer is nice to counter TSS but your team should be supporting you with this in group play.

The damage and crit bonuses from a Tactical escort make the difference in group play especially when the focused ship is getting healed and +resists.

RSF sorry your shields will not be online. Next.


As far as my analysis I base it off of the fact that I run one of the only two competitive PvP fed premade teams in the game and we don't lose unless it's against each other. Hit me up in game and we'll do a 5v5 Cracked premade so I can demonstrate.

I'm also sad to say that I have earned almost 30,000 PvP5 marks. lol


I can see your appeal with 1v1 to some extent (mainly with overcoming TSS III drain) however I would still choose the Sci / Escort hybrid in that scenario if I wanted to make a hybrid escort.

The amount of bad players that are floating around in PvP you could probably make a less then optimal hybrid selection work no doubt. It's just that you would be much more useful and effective choosing one of the other two imho.

We had a Cracked Planetoid match the other day with 3 of us using T4 ships + 1 pugger vs. a fully decked out T5 premade. We stomped them.

Yes it was a 4v5 in their favor.

All kinds of situations exist like that in this game because of the wealth of really bad PvPers on fed side.

Buffed up sensor scan its "almost" as good as APA, if we forget about crits for a second

Yes and it's not a bad hybrid.

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I can see your appeal with 1v1 to some extent (mainly with overcoming TSS III drain) however I would still choose the Sci / Escort hybrid in that scenario if I wanted to make a hybrid escort.

Now you have revealed yourself, as guessing and assuming instead of actually testing. A good engineer in an escort has more trouble with Tacticals than Science. If you had done any testing, you would already know this, and know why.

Your guide is flawed if it is based on the logic of being optimal in a 5v5 premade. Guides that tell people how to fit into one specific team role for 5v5s are only useful in highlighting how terrible STO PvP is because players must conform to fit a specific nitch of limited gameplay for effectiveness. The real problem is the guide is useless to the vast majority of the PvPers in the game who don't play 5v5 premade style of king of the crack rock. Believe it or not, Cap and Hold is the measurement of good PvP in STO - even if Cap and Hold is terrible and stupid in STO.

Imagine a game set in the context of conquest of the galaxy where 5 specific PvP builds all working together is defined as complete excellence. In such a context, that is either a small galaxy or a terrible PvP game.

Telling people Engineers in Escorts is a bad build is silly stupid when you have not seriously tested it. You under value survivability of a single ship outside of your 5v5 settings, probably because you rely so heavily on your team mates to keep you alive in those settings. For the rest of us who play under different circumstances, those builds you haven't tested but tout as terrible might be a lot more useful to us than the ones you recommend - particularly since most of the PvP playerbase in this game plays a completely different style than you do.

I want to be clear though - I do completely agree with you that in organized competition, an Engineer in a Cruiser is a much better teammate. My main ship when flying with my fleet is a cruiser. However, in the more free-for-all scenarios of Kerrot or Cap and Hold, an Engineer can dish out DPS with the best of them because the escort has more survivability from the surrounding factors one finds in those scenarios.

RSF sorry your shields will not be online. Next.

TSS is the favorite flavor of premades because of its stacking effect, and as such will probably be the next nerf. Hopefully all they do is remove the stacking effects, instead of make the skill totally useless. Sorry man, but I'm not sure what to respond to this other than to say even tss III isn't taking my escorts shields down in a 1v1 meaning RSF is giving my shields 50% damage resist to your hits - but then again, I'm an Engineer.

You really should test stuff before giving advice. It's bad form to give advice based on untested theory.

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One more thought...

I'm also sad to say that I have earned almost 30,000 PvP5 marks. lol


That is probably a lot in Fed circles, but I play a mostly Klingon and 30K is about average over on this side of the Galaxy. I have 25K on my Klingon and 12K on my Fed.

Wouldn't it be nice to spend these marks on something useful?

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Gotta agree and disagree on some things here.

Ninjaboy's right in that, tac/escort is the best escort build. In pvp, especially pre-made, it's all about burst damage. Make em pop before anyone has time to do anything to save them. Nobody does this better than tac/escort.

In my fleet, we have two of the best escorts in the game. When we pvp, my role (in a tac/cruiser) is almost exclusively to keep them alive. My damage output drops dramatically. Why? They kill the enemy so fast, I rarely even get to focus fire with them.

However, I disagree with nijaboy, in that no hybrid is great for a pre-made, good maybe, but not great. Though it's true DOB would never take anything other than a tac/escort, they also don't want tac/cruisers.

A cruiser's best team ability is Extend shields. However, once you pop that on a buddy, you become target number one to any moderately intelligent escort. A tac/cruiser would struggle to stay alive under moderate focus fire, an eng/cruiser could shrug it off. RSF plus ST2 plus EPtS would give over 90% reduction in damage hitting his shilelds. On top of the fact they have stronger shields and miracle worker.

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Your guide is flawed if it is based on the logic of being optimal in a 5v5 premade. Imagine a game set in the context of conquest of the galaxy where 5 specific PvP builds all working together is defined as complete excellence.


You're assuming my insight is only for premades.


It's not and anyone actually reading it or that does in game PvP can see why.

Primarily it might lean towards GROUP PvP but not necessarily fleet premade.

There's some 1v1 insight tossed in there (how did you miss this) however 1v1 isn't the primary source of PvP at the moment.

You're also assuming I only listed ONE way to spec a ship (the very topic of the post says otherwise LOL)

In regards to my personal preference with Sci / Escort as a better choice then an Engineer / Escort it's based on actual in game experience with all three types of captains / escorts in play in pugs, 1v1 vs numerous captain/ship combos, and the highest level of PvP competition current available.



Telling people Engineers in Escorts is a bad build is silly stupid when you have not seriously tested it.

Read the thread again.

I am not sure where you're coming up with your "silly" notions.

Engineers in Escorts is a really bad combo whether you agree or not for all the facts I listed as well as the opinions expressed based on the highest level of pvp competition and overall group pug pvp experiences.

As I said before I'm sure you can make a bad hybrid spec work in the game currently due to all the bad fed players flying around but that will change (hopefully).


TSS is the favorite flavor of premades because of its stacking effect, and as such will probably be the next nerf. Hopefully all they do is remove the stacking effects, instead of make the skill totally useless. Sorry man, but I'm not sure what to respond to this other than to say even tss III isn't taking my escorts shields down in a 1v1 meaning RSF is giving my shields 50% damage resist to your hits - but then again, I'm an Engineer.


You really should test stuff before giving advice. It's bad form to give advice based on untested theory.

You live in your own fantasy world I think.

The RSF damage resist with your shield power up, in almost every normal pvp scenario, isn't going to matter much when that group turns to focus you.

You can pretend it does, you can pretend you tested it vs. average or better players, but if you really did do any testing you can see why it's irrelevant and rather lackluster.

However the crit bonus both CHANCE and IMPACT, extra damage (60% from APA + 50% from Go Down Fighting if you're at *100%* HULL + the -resist from FOMM) is huge.


You keep mentioning all you tests. Let's see your combat logs and parses then from your last 5 PvP encounters.

When you take your own advice and actually test your ramblings vs. decent players or when you become more experienced at PvP you will see I base my opinion on fact and real in game situations / performances.

It's easy to tell someone to test something but when that person has more experience then you, has already tested / observed it more thoroughly then you, and is willing to substantiate all the facts, theories, and opinions in game in a friendly in game 5v5 match you should accept the offer or gracefully decline by no longer posting.


I am sorry if I offended you by saying that an Engineer / Escort is a bad hybrid for most PvP circumstances but the facts and experiences by veterans players prove this to be true.

I am glad you are enjoying playing a spec most would consider inferior and are making it work.

That speaks as a testament to your patience and should be commended.

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#1. Damage is lower because of no Sensor Scan, FOMM, APA, or GDF.

#2. Damage is lower and players survive because of no SNB

#3. RSF doesn't matter as much because of TSS and if your RSP is down an Escort is going burn through your shields regardless especially if they're using DHC + Tactical buffs. Also if you get SNB RSF doesn't matter but you could say that about a lot of other abilities too.

#4. EPS Power Transfer is meh for Escorts. If you plan your loadout properly as well as your skills power isn't an issue. If you're in an escort you sure as hell better not be thinking you're support either lol.

#5. Nadion Inversion - see above.

First you I dont think you understand weapon mechanics in the game, or the engineer captian skills.
EPS III increases all power levels simultaniously as well as regen. nadion inversion allows you to use half your energy weapons power. that being said an engineer captian using EPS III, and Nadion can effectivly fire thier weapons with 30% more power for a full 30 seconds.

attack pattern Alpha is good, but loses effectiveness after first strike.
an engineer however can maintain his buff through the entire firing cycle. ie a constant high dps burst.
engineer and science captians give up HYT III, Rapid fire III.
these can be replaced with Beam Overload III and target shields III

Tactical is kings of alpha strike DPS. (hit leathally hard once or twice)
engineers have a higher sustained dps and better survivablity to deliver that dps. (brute force appoach)
science brings snb, and sensor scan so they bring surgical strike capability but less survivability. (surgical approach to dps)

all three are valid approaches to escourt/raptor combat ships it all depends on your play style and tactics used.

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First you I dont think you understand weapon mechanics in the game, or the engineer captian skills.
EPS III increases all power levels simultaniously as well as regen. nadion inversion allows you to use half your energy weapons power. that being said an engineer captian using EPS III, and Nadion can effectivly fire thier weapons with 30% more power for a full 30 seconds than a tactical officer can.

This is a good example as why there are so many bad pvpers in the game.

Someone shooting over, "hey you don't understand" when it seems like you don't realize the basic game mechanics behind weapons power. The weapons cap is 125 Energy regardless of how much power you have or are reducing.

Our escorts stay near 125 under their full burst with the proper loadout / skill set.

Also Nadion Inversion is on a TEN MINUTE COOLDOWN for FOURTY seconds.

Wow that's really going to help you with sustained DPS lol.

GO DOWN FIGHTING is only on a FIVE minute CD for SIXTY seconds with **50%** more damage at 100% hull.


Note: Some of the values change slightly depending of course on the skills you pick but you get the point.


attack patter Alpha is good, but loses effectiveness after first strike. an engineer however can maintain his buff through the entire firing cycle.

You're primarily losing 25 weapons power (which I already said you can compensate for the most part with a proper build). 125 is CAP regardless if you have 200 weapons power overcapped.

Again Nadion Inversion is on a TEN MINUTE COOLDOWN and I remember previous testing from another thread showed this ability to be bugged or under performing regardless.


Tactical is kings of DPS.

Fixed

engineers have a higher sustained dps

No. This is only true if the escort has no idea how to maintain properly setup their ship or pop their buffs. lol

The extra +25 Weapons power (from EPS Transfer power to all) isn't an issue unless your Escort is using a really bad build / loadout. Just ask Ultime or Xaiver.


EDIT: all three are valid approaches to escourt/raptor combat ships it all depends on your play style and tactics used.

I wouldn't use the term valid but more like "different" with Engineering / Escort being the most difficult and least effective in most PvP situations.

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Ninja, I kind of have to agree that engineer in an escort is still pretty useful.

Is it as good as other Hybrids, I wouldn't know, just that I do not feel like I am underpowered compared to other escorts. I can go toe to toe with most of them and win 1v1. I become even more effective if I have a cruiser watching my back, but the same can be said about any escort.

I have had plenty of CnH matches where I was able to out-damage pure tacs in an escort, and still outheal engies in a cruiser. And I am usually the kind of person who tries to cap points, even at the expense of not pew-pewing for a few minutes.

Nadion Inversion IS useless because of its ridiculous cooldown. But EPSpT is still pretty useful against TSS or TES, not just on yourself, but on teammates as well. I don't use it for the extra power to weapons.

I think the viability of any hybrid, or any pure class for that matter, depends highly on the player flying it. Playing an Engineer in an Escort is not quite the same playstyle as a pure tac/escort. Basically it boils down to know your class.

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Nadion Inversion IS useless because of its ridiculous cooldown. But EPSpT is still pretty useful against TSS or TES, not just on yourself, but on teammates as well. I don't use it for the extra power to weapons.

This is a good key point and exactly what I was saying.

In an escort it's not going to be for extra power to weapons and Nadion Inversion is silly to even try and factor in the equation for overall sustained damage based on the facts of the ability.


Is it as good as other Hybrids, I wouldn't know,

I think the viability of any hybrid, or any pure class for that matter, depends highly on the player flying it. .

This is an example of a good player making making a less then spectacular hybrid viable.

I did say you can make a less then optimal spec viable with a good player.


DHC + CRF does go a long way regardless of the captain type as I previously stated.

That's one of the biggest complaints from some players in the game (it's burst damage alone)


Hell you and I both know that we can make our TIER 4 ships seem viable.

We've DONE it vs. T5 PREMADES lol.

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Someone shooting over, "hey you don't understand" when it seems like you don't realize the basic game mechanics behind weapons power. The weapons cap is 125 Energy regardless of how much power you have or are reducing.

Actually, just a small correction there...the soft cap is 125 power indicated. You can have over 125 weapons power and the additional power is drained first. For example let's say you pop an EPtW I and now have 150 weapons power. If you fire four weapons in sequence the drain goes to -30 and thus 120 weapons power is the lowest you'll hit for not 95. Obviously when weapon cycling begins...or broadsiding in a cruiser...power drain will increase for the -10 power for each weapon when other weapons are also firing.

This "soft cap" mechanic is also demonstrated when combating TSS drains. With stacking of TSS you can be drained for more than -125 shield power. With full power to shields, EPtS, EPS Transfer, Batteries, etc you can produce a shield power rating above the soft cap of +125 and thus combat the drain. The soft cap does serve as the maximum multiplier for shield damage resistance unlike weapons power which continues to add the percentage modifier...hence some of the outrageous burst damage on Alpha Strikes along with the Tactical buff stacking of APA, APB, etc.

I still agree with your point of Tac/Escort being the highest DPS-capable combination with the Sci/Escort running second with the ability to strip all buffs (think RSP and hull resistance stacks here) from the target.

PS...yeah, you escort guys are lucky...Tier 4's look good while my Tier 4 cruiser is a space tugboat. :p

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Yep, I wasn't really disagreeing with anything you said, maybe just providing the exception that proves the rule? :P

Many people think they can just hop into an escort and make everything go boom. The harsh truth is, if your alpha strike fails or is countered, your survivability diminishes exponentially unless you have a team or some buddies to back you up.

Am I as good as a pure tac/esc? If in a 1v1 against an equally skilled player, he will probably out-dps me. Then again, I might have 5-10 times as much healing as he does, at the very least.

That's what Hybrid means. You combine two things to create something that is bigger than the sum of its parts. You give up something in exchange for something else.

For me, that means I give away 100-200k damage in a CnH map for 80-150k healing. Not quite a 1:1 trade there. But healing usually means I keep another player alive long enough for him to heal himself, to provide me with healing and support, to shoot at the enemy, and most importantly, another target for others to shoot at. And being used to flying a beached whale, I feel pretty naked when I fly my escort, so I like it when I'm not being shot at! :P

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the soft cap is 125 power indicated. You can have over 125 weapons power and the additional power is drained first. For example let's say you pop an EPtW I and now have 150 weapons power. If you fire four weapons in sequence the drain goes to -30 and thus 120 weapons power is the lowest you'll hit for not 95. Obviously when weapon cycling begins...or broadsiding in a cruiser...power drain will increase for the -10 power for each weapon when other weapons are also firing.

I agree I posted a lot about this in the past (and a little in this thread) see my Tactical Cruiser vs. Engineer Cruiser energy posts or overcapping in this thread.

In one of the main energy threads you'll see Engineers getting their overcaps to 170 and 180 energy (although it will always show 125 unless you drain below that or your buffs wear off).

It's also nice to be aware of the variances in weapon cycle duration if weapon energy economy is important (see the turrets vs. beam array threads).

Here's a good list that shows explains how much weapons damage you gain per point of energy.

It's essentially 2% per 1 point.


WEAPONS SYSTEM:
Power Level = % of affect
100 – 200
75 – 150
50 – 100
25 – 50

In other words = 2% difference (up or down) per point of Power above or below a setting of 50.

This only affects the power of the weapon when it leaves your ship, and not when it impacts the enemy. All energy weapons are also affected by the distance between yourself and your target, to varying degrees and will deal more damage the closer you are to your target. (cannons seem to be more affected than beams)

Your current available Weapon Energy is drained each time you fire an energy weapon. The amount of drain depends on the type of weapon you are firing, and the number of weapons firing simultaneously. Watch your power level in combat, and make sure you’re not over-draining your weapon power, as you will end up doing LESS damage over time if your Weapon Energy dips too low on a regular basis. If you regularly see your Weapon Power dipping well below the level it is set at, it may be a good idea to swap in a lower-power weapon type.

Weapon Power Drain amounts per shot:
Beam Arrays and all cannon types = drain 10 power (beams drain more frequently than cannons, allowing less time to regen)
Turrets = drain 8 power

You can offset the drain of Energy Weapons by investing in EPS Flow Regulator (Engineering Consoles). You can also use batteries or Emergency Power abilities to quickly recharge.

my Tier 4 cruiser is a space tugboat.

Don't worry the refits are coming soon. Too bad the "All good things" Cruiser requires 5 recruits.

Yep, I wasn't really disagreeing with anything you said, maybe just providing the exception that proves the rule? :P

Yes we already know you make every ship combo look GOOD!

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Yes we already know you make every ship combo look GOOD!

Only because I'm so damn handsome! ;)

Flying T4 ships is fun. But just like Bounty here, I wish I could refit my T4 to something a little bit better!

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Was wondering what people think of Eng/Sciship hybrids. Ive been flying one, I think its pretty good all around and fairly survivable. Mostly in groups I seem to end up in healing role it seems to be pretty good at that role with 2 HE and 2 Sci teams. Anyways this is all well and good my problem is im really unhappy with the amount of damage its doing. Im thinking of going dual phasers in front and 3 turrets in back or giving up and going assault cruiser. So id be curious to see what people think of the eng/sci combo to begin with or if anyone has any specific thoughts on my issues.

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Was wondering what people think of Eng/Sciship hybrids. Ive been flying one, I think its pretty good all around and fairly survivable. Mostly in groups I seem to end up in healing role it seems to be pretty good at that role with 2 HE and 2 Sci teams. Anyways this is all well and good my problem is im really unhappy with the amount of damage its doing. Im thinking of going dual phasers in front and 3 turrets in back or giving up and going assault cruiser. So id be curious to see what people think of the eng/sci combo to begin with or if anyone has any specific thoughts on my issues.

I ran an engi/sci build for a while, and its probably one of my fav hybrids. I used the dual HE and Sci Team combo, and set the ship up for Energy Syphon.... combined with EPS Transfer everything was 100+ Power.

For weap'n setups, I found the recon sci to be particularly effective as a torp boat... I had a Dual Beam up front, with a Quantum Launcher and a Tri Cobalt. In the Back was 2 Beam arrays and a Quantum. My standard tactic was Energy Syphon, TSS and HY2 at range, then evasive+ Brace for Impact (and depending on my mood, Ramming Speed) and the Tri Cobalt... if timed right (or lucky) you get the quantums and the tri cobalt all hitting at the same time, and on an unshielded quadrant... The whole setup was rather effective, and I usually had equal heals to DMG and frequently was in the top 3 for DPS (and a few times as the top DPS and Heals)

For me, this was a rather fun set up, and something I will probably revisit...as for now, I am trying my hand at all out healing and support in a Cruiser

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So I guess those of us that like the hybrid builds should just leave the game because somewhere along the line this game became Premade PvP online where individuality is lost if you want to be an Elite PvPer. The arrogance that this thread smacks of is one reason why the PvP queues keep getting sparser and sparser. Now I know why I stopped PvPing after the last patch. DOB and Section 31 try to guise their arrogance in helping and providing information when in reality they are nothing more than the Borg of this game. "To be PvP gods follow our rules, resistance is futile." The funny thing is I have been on the receiving end of some of your lopsided victories, I had to endure some of ridicule from your fleet members, which you guys profess doesn't happen. The one thing I see in the Cap and holds where one or two of your ships strut around is they get totally owned by the very hybrids you put down. The only reason I can see you trying to get everyone to come to your side of enlightenment is to stroke your egos and probably because you are about to reveal a new FOTM that will put everyone that stacks TS(X) at another disadvantage because you and your fleet get off thinking you have an advantage over everyone else and you are not afraid to flaunt it.

[Archived Post]

So I guess those of us that like the hybrid builds should just leave the game

Please read the thread before you post.

This thread is all about the celebration of Hybrid builds that WORK as well as covering those less viable.

[Archived Post]

Actually every build is somewhat viable if the player knows how to play its strenghts. While eng/escort may not be the most flexible/offensive hybrid, it sure adds surviabilty and when abilties such as nadion inversion are fixed, it will have different strengths.
Of course there are min/maxing builds, but for the average player, with 1h daily play time, fun is more important than 10 more dps.

As i said, there is nothing wrong with any particular builds. If anything i hate, its cloning builds, where everyone uses the same skills of the month and there is no diversity and no suprise at all. You can see fleet tags and know their tactics and what exactly will they do..and that spretty boring (at least for me)

The other day i was tractored at point blank range by a cruiser and he managed to board me with shuttles, when he timed it well (or luckily) to the start of my volley so i couldnt change targets.. And i congratulated to him, because i found it very smart way to use the shuttles somewhat effectively.



But since people say eng in escort is weakest, i may turn my engineer captain to escort again !!!

[Archived Post]

Please read the thread before you post.

This thread is all about the celebration of Hybrid builds that WORK as well as covering those less viable.


I have ready every post in this thread. It is evident that anyone that offers a differing opinion is wrong and that you feel everyone should bow down to your fleet or DOB's "expertise". While you guys think its fun to "rule the roost from behind a keyboard" and feel everyone should strive to "PvP better" and fleet PVP is the thing that will bring the world together mantra. Most of the people here use this game to escape and all you and fleets like you do is drive more people away. You guys love being a big fish in small pond feeding on peoples desires to escape because it actually makes you feel better about yourselves. Some of the toughest escorts I ever faced in PvP were eng captains, it was amusing to seem them with stand a focus fire and not pop, that is skill. Not pretending to be the hand of god when you have 4 of your buddies hitting you with every buff and debuff available. Because unlike you the majority of the players here only have a couple hours a day to play and really have no want to dissect the game to be uber elite because quite frankly all your tactics do is create copy cats because you do it and ultimately everyone suffers. Of course you will now fire back with well that is why we are informing them how to counter or be better pvpers when in reality you are just stroking....

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As i said, there is nothing wrong with any particular builds. If anything i hate, its cloning builds, where everyone uses the same skills of the month and there is no diversity and no suprise at all. You can see fleet tags and know their tactics and what exactly will they do..and that spretty boring (at least for me)




That is why some of these 1337 fleets stopped tagging themselves and actually have members drop from the fleet so you do not see their fleet in their info page in game.

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DOB and Section 31 try to guise their arrogance in helping and providing information when in reality they are nothing more than the Borg of this game...

Reading comprehension would be your friend in this situation. The gentleman who started this thread (Ninjaboy) is from Section 31 and has some very specific ideas about hybrid ship/captain builds. Ipigi is a DOB member and was the one who was championing the cause of having an Engineering Captain in an Escort (which he flies in-game). I personally utilize a Science Captain in a Cruiser...contrary to the popular opinion of it. So actually reading the posts and not simply skimming over it and assuming things which are incorrect and make you look foolish would probably be of benefit in the future...;)

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Yep, I wasn't really disagreeing with anything you said, maybe just providing the exception that proves the rule?



BountyXP you are right you and your fleet have "pointed" out an error in Ninjaboys SWAG the comment above is what I took to heart. But this isn't the first time I have seen DOB and S31 chummy on these boards. Or maybe you need to teach your fleet mates proper sentence structure and grammar so their posts do not get misconstrued, the above comment is a double affirmation. But it is whatever I am sure I will be shouted/flamed out of this thread by whomever.

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You know whats funny, some of the "pros" around the forums now, were one of the loudest whiners and QQers on the forums when the game launched :p nothing personal, just something to giggle about :o

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You know whats funny, some of the "pros" around the forums now, were one of the loudest whiners and QQers on the forums when the game launched :p nothing personal, just something to giggle about :o

Yes I was, and then I got better and FAST (mostly after the beta when I knew i had to actually improve) . :p

I mostly *****ed about stuff like MES being fine when it wasn't and how powerful that klink alpha strike actually was. I was partially right about the alpha strike, but it certainly hasn't created a degenerate gameplay like I thought it would.

Funny though how alot of klinks said that getting cruisers would let them tank up the fedball damage while the dps could kill the feds. Ya that was misguided.

looking back, I see how much I have improved, how much of a ***** I was in the beginning, and how wrong we all were during the beta about balance. Except RSP, oh god RSP, the bad player's crutch.

edit:

btw, its good to see you back dalnar

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I actually meant ninjaboy :p If i was bored enough i would search old posts and find his famous "sci bops are overpowered" "sci is overpowered" lines in alot of posts :p;)

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I like the idea of the Sci/Escort combo and may try that my next play through. I had been wondering about a Sci/Cruiser so all good info. I currently run a Tac/Cruiser and find it fits my style of game play the most. That said, the OP mentioned that trading bridge officers is a feature coming soon and I was hoping someone had more info on this as I would love to have ET3. This capability could really help out the hybrids out there. Thanks. :D

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Originally Posted by Ipigi
Yep, I wasn't really disagreeing with anything you said, maybe just providing the exception that proves the rule?

BountyXP you are right you and your fleet have "pointed" out an error in Ninjaboys SWAG the comment above is what I took to heart. But this isn't the first time I have seen DOB and S31 chummy on these boards. Or maybe you need to teach your fleet mates proper sentence structure and grammar so their posts do not get misconstrued, the above comment is a double affirmation. But it is whatever I am sure I will be shouted/flamed out of this thread by whomever.

Yeah, we have a respect for Section 31. They earned it, as I am sure we earned theirs as well. Is that what your gripe with me is?

What's wrong with my syntax structure or grammar? I was not aware I was writing a dissertation...

The way I see it, I made a post, in anecdotal form, describing my experience in flying a eng/escort hybrid. I was not trying to solidify Ninjaboy's claims, or dispute them, just share what my experiences in hybrid builds has been.

If you had bothered to read both my previous posts in this thread, you will notice that I mentionned I was not convinced that an Engineer in an escort was a bad combo. I made the point of saying that I could not say the same for other mixes (because I have not tried them), and that I would say player ability has a lot to do with how well a hybrid configuration works out.

I don't see why you took offense at any of that.

So I guess those of us that like the hybrid builds should just leave the game because somewhere along the line this game became Premade PvP online where individuality is lost if you want to be an Elite PvPer. The arrogance that this thread smacks of is one reason why the PvP queues keep getting sparser and sparser. Now I know why I stopped PvPing after the last patch. DOB and Section 31 try to guise their arrogance in helping and providing information when in reality they are nothing more than the Borg of this game. "To be PvP gods follow our rules, resistance is futile." The funny thing is I have been on the receiving end of some of your lopsided victories, I had to endure some of ridicule from your fleet members, which you guys profess doesn't happen. The one thing I see in the Cap and holds where one or two of your ships strut around is they get totally owned by the very hybrids you put down. The only reason I can see you trying to get everyone to come to your side of enlightenment is to stroke your egos and probably because you are about to reveal a new FOTM that will put everyone that stacks TS(X) at another disadvantage because you and your fleet get off thinking you have an advantage over everyone else and you are not afraid to flaunt it.

I'm not going to analyze syntax or grammar here, only say that this post reeks of bigotry. Had this thread been started by Faithborne or Matt-Dravis, would you be going off like this, or would you instead be praising them for yet another helpful guide to help the uninitiated? I already know the answer.

Because this thread was started by Section 31, and DOB posted in it, you believe it is automatically an self-centered arrogance measure designed to boost our egos.

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SciBOP :D

There is nothing better in STO.
Period.

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(reserved for flame countermeasures)

[Archived Post]

Yeah, we have a respect for Section 31. They earned it, as I am sure we earned theirs as well. Is that what your gripe with me is?

What's wrong with my syntax structure or grammar? I was not aware I was writing a dissertation...

The way I see it, I made a post, in anecdotal form, describing my experience in flying a eng/escort hybrid. I was not trying to solidify Ninjaboy's claims, or dispute them, just share what my experiences in hybrid builds has been.

If you had bothered to read both my previous posts in this thread, you will notice that I mentionned I was not convinced that an Engineer in an escort was a bad combo. I made the point of saying that I could not say the same for other mixes (because I have not tried them), and that I would say player ability has a lot to do with how well a hybrid configuration works out.

I don't see why you took offense at any of that.



I'm not going to analyze syntax or grammar here, only say that this post reeks of bigotry. Had this thread been started by Faithborne or Matt-Dravis, would you be going off like this, or would you instead be praising them for yet another helpful guide to help the uninitiated? I already know the answer.

Because this thread was started by Section 31, and DOB posted in it, you believe it is automatically an self-centered arrogance measure designed to boost our egos.

So now to shut me up you call me a bigot, I guess I hit a nerve. Yes i would but those two are hardly as arrogant as you are, or pretend not to be. And for the most part they don't try to be condescending for the most part don't getme wrong the push it sometimes but for the most part they are genuinely trying to help. Every post especially by the S31 mouth pieces on these boards always try to make anyone not of their own feel inadequate. So please spare me the "bigot" card

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haha ninja :) and and your impossible quest to make people learn using viabl einformation and testing never stop, but its hopeless, soem people are destined to fail and never learn, or at least, consider the proposed possibilities,, i mean i dropped from doing that a long time ago...

even tryied in stop a bit, but my patience ran out fast, i got called dense and unwilling to learn because i was stating broasiding on an escort with 8 beam, or using full turret on an escort was a terrible idea (on rainbow style) for many reasons, and you knwo what is the most sad thing abotu those? i actually killed peopel 1v1 messing around with those lol. also when some1 ttold me using 1 dual beam instead of 3 DHC was a major dps loss, especially before season1 patch, DB + 2x DHC was actually better for dps, now with the cannon cd removal, DB is still priceless for group utility, possible CC, larger atack range than cannons...

tss3 is not the reason why i use a DB ... its just a lovely addon to the build :) , if tss 3 wasnt viable, i you either use BO 3, target engine 3, or APB, or `maybe` a torp hield 3 ( which i dont love that much)

tss3 is the only counter to people that arent smart enought to counter it and make their 4-5 RSP useless

in 1v1 vs a cruiser that spam rsp like 4 times... if hes good, hes gonna outlast you and wont be able to kill him

but if hes clueless of what happening, of just didnt noticed it fast, a 3 sec window is all i can need if im properly prepared

anyway have fun ninjan00b :P

[Archived Post]

I think the viability of any hybrid, or any pure class for that matter, depends highly on the player flying it. Playing an Engineer in an Escort is not quite the same playstyle as a pure tac/escort. Basically it boils down to know your class.

Ninja, you're funny. I say something, and you pound sand telling me I'm wrong... but when Ipigi comes a long and makes the same argument, you praise him. I never claimed Eng/Escort was somehow more of a damage dealer than Tac/Escort, but I did say they can end up with similar damage over the course of the match. You claim I'm wrong, until Ipigi says the exact same thing.

I guess you have become Rev's ballboy?

Ipigi says something very important above - knowing your class means you will be adaptable in playstyle depending upon which ship you are using. I play a lot, so both my Fed and Klingon has a copy of each ship class - and adapts style/BOs to fit each type of ship. Some don't really work well, but any good build can fly at least two different ships effectively - but will do so in two very different roles. An Eng/Escort can't be played like a Tact/Escort, just like a Eng/Cruiser is played different than a Tac/Cruiser. Understanding the differences is how hybrids are made to excel.

I'd note the same is true for using different kits in ground PvP. If an Engineer uses the Technician Kit they are a support role, but with a different kit the same Engineer might be a damage dealer.

It was a real pleasure playing DOB last night while doing my Fed Daily. I'm sitting in this PUG with 4 guys who I've never seen before, and it is striking how much better DOB is than the vast majority of Feds (I guess I really don't see you guys very often - different maps I guess). At one point DOB had 2 extend shields out protecting each other, while the PUG fools I'm flying with are spamming their RSP (even when not taking damage ftw!) and zooming off the map when RSP dies leaving the guy next to them to get pounded without a heal. 2 of the cruisers in our group finished with no healing...

I ended up leading our terrible team with all 4 kills, highest damage and highest healing - all from an escort. It isn't because DOB is bad at PvP or because I am good at PvP, but because Eng/Escorts can be a pain in the butt to kill while still putting out DPS - thus is a viable hybrid when played correctly.

[Archived Post]

Engineer Fleet Escort Shield Tanking: Some food for thought to add to this thread. Ninja asked for some math to back up my testing the Eng/Escort build, so here are my observations.

Shield tanking is not easy (virtually impossible) against organized groups that stack TSS, but many PUGs don't do this, and in the chaos of Kerrot or Cap and Hold matches one usually finds situations where shield tanking is very viable. Fleet Escorts flown by Engineer Captains can shield tank in Season 1.1 allowing them enough time to usually dispatch foes. Note this approach is only enhanced when supported by teammates (who are required to overcome organized enemies utilizing TSS).

A Typical Engineer will have around 64 or higher shield power with bonuses in a Fleet Escort when power is set to 100/50/25/25. Before entering combat, an Engineer Fleet Escort can pop EPtS to achieve ~+17 shield power and 9% resist, giving the Fleet Escort 81+ shield power. 81+ shield power equals ~15% resist to shields, plus EPtS which adds another 9% resist for 24% resist all sides.

Fleet Escorts also come with two science slots, which can be used for Hazard Emitters I and Science Team II. Science Team II will add an additional ~+34% resist to damage to shields, bringing the total to 60% shield resist. With Rotate Shield Frequency, an Engineer can add an additional 50% resist to all damage to shields for a total of 110% resistance to damage to all shields. EPtS I, Science Team II, and Rotate Shield Frequency III all last 30 seconds, giving the Fleet Escort 30 seconds of 110% shield damage resist (before enemy debuffs).

There are several debuffs, including Sensor Scan, SNB, and Attack Pattern Beta, that will influence this percentage. It is often wise to hold off using Science Team II when facing a Science Captain foe and utilize the SciTeam to remove either SNB or Sensor Scan when using this approach. Assuming the enemy is Tactical or Engineer and is not debuffing damage, one can achieve the 110% shield damage resist for a full 30 seconds.

After 30 seconds, if the Fleet Escort is still the target of the enemy, RSP can be used to maintain shield power for the 15 seconds SciTeam II and EPtS I is on cool down. After the 15 seconds, SciTeam II and EPtS I can be utilized again to give an additional 30 seconds of a combined 60% shield resist. Hazard Emitters I and EngTeam I make up the rest of the Engineer and Science skill slots, and can be used to repair hull (and more importantly, add hull resists) when facing opponents debuffing your shield resists and covering bleed through.

That allows a Fleet Escort to shield tank for a full 45 seconds very effectively, then operate for an additional 30 seconds with 60% shield resist which can sometimes be viable because there is often very little burst damage 45 seconds into combat.

If a Fleet Escort is unable to kill enemies in 1 minute and 15 seconds, you need a new offensive strategy.

Note what usually follows at the 1 minute 15 second mark is nothing but hull repair/resist skills (EngTeam and Hazard Emitters), but after 15 more seconds (at the +1:30 mark of battle): Rotate Shield Frequency, SciTeam II, and EPtS I is available again to provide 100% shield resist. After this combination wears off, the Fleet Escort is usually in cool down hell for a bit, but is only 1:15 from RSP I being available again.

This rotation can make Fleet Escorts remarkably survivable in many situations, and with EPS III added in as an extra protection against TSS to stack an additional 25 power for shields (to at least 106+ shield power, before batteries), or extra 25 power to engines to overcome those who TSE - the point being there are even more options available to Engineer Escort captains. Note EPS III adds 25 shield power, which adds an additional 5% shield resist, on top of better weapon power regen and better maneuverability from Engine power, so it is a highly effective skill for giving that extra edge to finish an opponent - or setup a nice finishing burst damage strike on a wounded enemy. EPS III is essentially an extra 100 power 33% of the time every minute and a half, which can go a long way for those who tweak power for maximum impact.

Eng/Escorts are not able to compete in terms of burst damage with Tac/Escorts, but they do have much higher survivability than Tac/Escorts and can sustain high DPS over longer periods of time, including providing for serious shield resists against pure DPS opponents like Tac/Escorts. As in any PvP, the enemy always has a say, but the availability of several survival options does make Eng/Escort builds very viable in Fleet Escorts with the Season 1.1 patch that gives extra resist bonuses to shield power.

Engineers are the masters of power, and using power effectively is how engineers are able to compete against Tacticals and Science who are often accused of being OP. In most cases, the complaining Engineer simply isn't utilizing their power advantage effectively. For example:

A tactical in a Fleet Escort can reach ~60% shield damage resist with EPtS I, Science Team II, and high shield power skills just like the Engineer can. With Rotate Shield Frequency added to that combo, an Engineer has 110% shield damage resist.

Well, a Science Captain can do Sensor Scan which typically hits for about -58% resists. A tactical Escort would then have only 2% resists to shield, while an Engineer would still have 52%, and can hit EPS III to add an additional 5% for a total of 57%.

But it actually scales to more than 55% less damage from the alpha strike in many cases, because EPS III also impacts the rate which shields will balance to all archs, and with 100% higher shield regen (106+ shield power vs 81+ shield power) a Sci/Escort using Sensor Scan dealing 16K damage to Tac/Escort over 5 seconds will deal about 6K shield and 10K hull damage in that strike, while a Sci/Escort will deal about 6.8K shield damage and 1.2K hull damage to the Eng/Escort - which comes in with the Eng/Escort taking around 88% less hull damage than the Tac/Escort to the same Alpha strike.

Obviously damage can exceed 15K over 5 seconds with crits (and the Sci/Escort Sensor Scan enemy always has a say in regards to further debuffing the Tac/Escort or Eng/Escort), but this example can be tested and verified easy enough. The key difference is the ability of Torps to hit hull or shields, and at least 90% (if not higher) of the time in this scenario the Eng/Escorts will absorb torp hits to shields instead of hull, while the Tac/Escort will take hull hits to Torps.

It is also important to note that the Sci/Escort is less likely to have maxed Engineer skills than the Tactical or Engineer, because Science folks typically have lots of points spent on Science abilities. This translates into lower shield power and lower bonuses from EPtS, thus even with EPtS I and Science Team II, a Science Captain will often still have a lower shield resist total than the Engineer Captain who is Sensor Scanned but still at 57%. Noteworthy however, that is before the Science Captain uses SNB...

These are some of the variables that suggest perhaps ninja has not tested all scenarios with the hybrid builds he is touting. I can't speak to some of the other hybrids he refers, but I have tested the Eng/Escort hybrid both on Tribble and extensively on Halodeck (I do a lot of skill/ability/etc testing on my Fed so I don't waste points on my main Klingon) and with the Season 1.1 changes the Eng/Escort went from a decent combination to an extremely effective hybrid combo.

The reasons, I think, are mostly due to the changes in shield resist bonuses related to power, but it also has a lot to do with purple items available in damage types other than anti-proton - which is a damage type most Engineers would not typically use because the high crit proc doesn't really stack with existing Engineering advantages.

[Archived Post]

haha ninja :) and and your impossible quest to make people learn using viabl einformation and testing never stop, but its hopeless, soem people are destined to fail and never learn, or at least, consider the proposed possibilities,, i mean i dropped from doing that a long time ago...

even tryied in stop a bit, but my patience ran out fast, i got called dense and unwilling to learn because i was stating broasiding on an escort with 8 beam, or using full turret on an escort was a terrible idea (on rainbow style) for many reasons, and you knwo what is the most sad thing abotu those? i actually killed peopel 1v1 messing around with those lol. also when some1 ttold me using 1 dual beam instead of 3 DHC was a major dps loss, especially before season1 patch, DB + 2x DHC was actually better for dps, now with the cannon cd removal, DB is still priceless for group utility, possible CC, larger atack range than cannons...

tss3 is not the reason why i use a DB ... its just a lovely addon to the build :) , if tss 3 wasnt viable, i you either use BO 3, target engine 3, or APB, or `maybe` a torp hield 3 ( which i dont love that much)

tss3 is the only counter to people that arent smart enought to counter it and make their 4-5 RSP useless

in 1v1 vs a cruiser that spam rsp like 4 times... if hes good, hes gonna outlast you and wont be able to kill him

but if hes clueless of what happening, of just didnt noticed it fast, a 3 sec window is all i can need if im properly prepared

anyway have fun ninjan00b :P

Darkside is entertaining.

He writes four page novels in a futile attempt to defend using a combo that is less effective overall then the other two choices.

He can get away with it though because as misinformed Darkside there are still many more that are actually worse then him at PvP.

That and also the fact that DHC + buffs = insta gib if someone isn't paying attention.


you have become Rev's ballboy?

then

t was a real pleasure playing DOB l

it is striking how much better DOB is than the vast majority of Feds

Sorry it looks like you took that job already! bahahahaha

/win

Ninja asked for some math to back up my testing the Eng/Escort build, so here are my observations.

Re-read what I asked for... I asked for your combat logs parsed with detailed damage information.

Not your theoretical guesstimates as to why you managed to outperform 4 pug players on your side that happened to be worse then you at the game.

Much like Section 31, DOB screws around a lot in a pug match especially if it's not their main lineup or if they're training new recruits.

Your meager kill count is a actually a testament to how effective ANY Captain type even one that is less viable) can be effective using an Escort ship because of DHC + buffs.


It's still not as good as Sci / Escort or a Tac / Escort overall.

Still waiting on your test match parses and combat logs.

[Archived Post]

SciBOP :D

There is nothing better in STO.
Period.
I'm gonna bring up using a SciBOP in a support role. (which I imagine is fairly different from sci/bop control damage)
Pros:
You're maneuverable as crap and can get the science teams and extend shields in range much, much easier than a carrier can.
Against a bad team, turning hazard emitters and science team on yourself can allow you to tank a fairly appreciable amount of damage.
With a good team, friendly carriers/cruisers will turn around and support you back, making you nigh invulnerable.

Cons:
If you spec a lot for support, your damage just isn't going to be near a more tactically oriented bops damage.
Against a good team, you die to focus fire in a very, very short time.
With a bad team, like, oh god, you start dying and all the friendly cruisers around just start glowing green.

[Archived Post]

meh, until they allow people to train officers for other professions those tacticals in cruisers will never be able to fully use the higher end slots of cruisers, and thats my biggest gripe.

I've seen people do some amazing things in hybrids, I've also seen some peple completely fall flat on their faces. When you compare ninjaboy in a cruiser to your average tactical in a cruiser its quite clear that he isn't the average. average tactical in a cruiser is so ungodly aweful that they produce less dps than bad escorts and blow up just as fast *sigh*

It feels like a giant handicap whenever you take a non-ninjaboy hybrid because no matter how good they are, there is a large amount of wasted potential in the set up. Yes, people can make it work, but it still peeves me. I'm a little bit of an efficiency nut.

thats my 2 cents, when they let me train officers for ninjaboy and people can get the high end versions of pvp-staple skills I wouldn't give two ***** about hybrids.

[Archived Post]

Sorry it looks like you took that job already! bahahahaha

/win

That is funny, I give you that.

Rev? Nope, he's a child like you, but I do like several folks in his fleet and your fleet who are more mature - and certainly funnier. It isn't my fault that there are only two Fed fleets that stand out from the rest, and as a Klingon I am very comfortable saying I think most Feds are terrible at teamwork.

My ego isn't big enough to not acknowledge skilled players, even if as people some of them are morons.

[Archived Post]

I’ll translate this discussion for the VAST majority of PvP’ers. If you’re not in one of the two “leet” pvp groups (and 99% of you aren’t), an engineer in an escort is perfectly viable. It works in every situation and addresses some of the innate shortcomings of the escort, namely survivability. Again, for the VAST majority of players, PvP’ing means pick up groups (PUG), or one step up from that, the persistent PUG, where people who’ve been successful together stay as a team for a few matches. In virtually every situation that most of you will face, your engineer can put out as much as, and even more DPS as a tactical officer driven escort. Why? Because the type of captain matters far less in this game then the quality of the equipment. If you have right weapons loadout and the right power settings (information which is easy to find), you’ll dish out a ton of damage. If you don’t have these, it won’t matter what kind of captain you’re using, you’ll suck. In fact, I would put the class of the captain behind both equipment and bridge officer power selection as determiners of success in PvP.

I fly an engineer/escort and I regularly out-damage tac/escort combos. Why? Because I live longer to dish out more damage. On a balanced team where I’m not the only escort, I survive much longer then they do, allowing me to put out more damage and get more kills. On unbalanced team, it doesn’t matter what type of captain you have, you’re toast. For example, I was on a team last night with 4 cruisers and me. Guess which ship was always the first target? Yes, in a pre-made group with people using voice chat and experienced players, I would have been fine. Those cruisers would have kept me alive and we’d have a good shot at winning. BUT THAT NEVER HAPPENS to the VAST majority of players. Most of us enjoy pvp in PUGs – if we’re lucky, someone calls targets and one or two of the cruisers/science vessels correctly heals/debuffs. If we’re really lucky, this group will stick together for three or four matches and we’ll have lots of fun. And even under these IDEAL conditions, your engineer/escort will shine.

What most people have been arguing about in this thread are conditions that are utterly alien to virtually every STO player. Yes, there are dedicated pvp groups who are used to working together and know exactly how to optimize their ships for maximum efficiency. And if you have the misfortune of facing them in combat, kiss your ass goodbye. Luckily, they’ll stomp you quickly so you can take your reward and move on. Thankfully, there’s little difference in this game between winning and losing. So who cares?! Because they represent such a small portion of the pvp universe (less then 1%), your chances of facing them are extremely thin.

Yes – in a match where a PVP fleet with optimized capabilities fights another PVP fleet with optimized capabilities, a tac/escort is likely slightly more effective than an engineer/escort. In those cases, the extra 5% of DPS that a tac captain can wring out of an escort may tip the balance. BUT YOU WILL NEVER BE IN THIS SITUATION.

Under PVP conditions that the VAST MAJORITY of us play under, and engineer/escort is a great combo. Just do a little reading and play to your strengths. Have fun!

[Archived Post]

Actually, I think the debate is that Ninjaboy is viewing the viability of escorts from a DPS point of view.

Engineers have no skill that can compare to APA or SNB. Although EPSpT is a valuable Engineering skill, it has little influence other than a counter to TSS or TES when you fly an escort. As previously stated, Nadion Inversion has too long a cooldown for it to be a deciding factor.

The viability of an Eng/Escort Hybrid is its survivability. RSF, more powerful E-Teams, Miracle Worker, and EPSpT are skills that can turn the tide of a battle if used properly. But these are all defensive measures. APA and SNB can be used offensively. SNB in particular has great defensive capabilities when stripping buffs from an escort.

I am not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone here. I am not saying you should or should not be flying X/escort. I am just stating the differences between captain classes.

[Archived Post]

Yep, the problem is, he is comparing the hybrids from a single point of view, which doesnt always work. There are plenty of scenarios in which some hybrid is better than other, he has just chosen the dps. Majority of people doesnt care if they have 800 or 900 dps as long as the job is done. But im sure someone will say "but but escort escort dps dps!!!", whatever. :o

If you would follow all the "leet" advices on forums, your BOs skill pool would shrink to like 10% of the abilites, everyone would use the same weapons, same loadout and generally it would be Clone Trek Online. :o If i wanted equality i would play chess.

As long as you have fun, play whatever you wish in whatever setup you want. "leet" players often live in their imaginary world soo...let them be :o So dont be discouraged with threads like this, use whatever you want.

[Archived Post]

Actually, I think the debate is that Ninjaboy is viewing the viability of escorts from a DPS point of view.

Engineers have no skill that can compare to APA or SNB. Although EPSpT is a valuable Engineering skill, it has little influence other than a counter to TSS or TES when you fly an escort. As previously stated, Nadion Inversion has too long a cooldown for it to be a deciding factor.

The viability of an Eng/Escort Hybrid is its survivability. RSF, more powerful E-Teams, Miracle Worker, and EPSpT are skills that can turn the tide of a battle if used properly. But these are all defensive measures. APA and SNB can be used offensively. SNB in particular has great defensive capabilities when stripping buffs from an escort.

I am not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone here. I am not saying you should or should not be flying X/escort. I am just stating the differences between captain classes.

I found you a nightmare to fight in an escort v escort situation on my noob Fed, and i agree with your earlier thread (tbh not read everything here) that engi ina tac can be a viable option under the right conditions. It can also throw out decent damage over the course of a game.

As for the other threads the term 'DPS' is thrown about to freely and in most cases incorectly, DPS is a measure of damage per second, not a measure of total damage done at the end of a game, even more so in a cap and hold where a tac/escort actually tries to cap rather than simply chases fights and contributes very little to the chance of a win despite gaining he most damage (most are probably ambulance chasing lawyers and they just cant break that habit).

tac/escorts have the highest dps, it will not always translate into the highest damage for a match, this can be for a number of reasons, one being everytime a good escort shows up he is under a lot of focus to kill him, and if that is beyond his or his teams ability to keep him up he dies. an engi/escort will have the lowest of the 3 hybrids in terms of raw dps but can still achieve high overall damage scores. The question is whether that damage is over such an extended period it can be rendered impotant due to being out healed as is it fails to apply enough pressure in burst to beat the healing counter vs organised grps.

in the end there is not a lot of fun to be had in this game and pvp isn't reaaly all that important, if you fancy dropping your cruiser/sci ship/escort for a change of pace, for a few maps vs most teams it really isn't going to matter to anyone but you

[Archived Post]

I’ll translate this discussion for the VAST majority of PvP’ers. If you’re not in one of the two “leet” pvp groups (and 99% of you aren’t), an engineer in an escort is perfectly viable. It works in every situation and addresses some of the innate shortcomings of the escort, namely survivability. Again, for the VAST majority of players, PvP’ing means pick up groups (PUG), or one step up from that, the persistent PUG, where people who’ve been successful together stay as a team for a few matches. In virtually every situation that most of you will face, your engineer can put out as much as, and even more DPS as a tactical officer driven escort. Why? Because the type of captain matters far less in this game then the quality of the equipment. If you have right weapons loadout and the right power settings (information which is easy to find), you’ll dish out a ton of damage. If you don’t have these, it won’t matter what kind of captain you’re using, you’ll suck. In fact, I would put the class of the captain behind both equipment and bridge officer power selection as determiners of success in PvP.

I fly an engineer/escort and I regularly out-damage tac/escort combos. Why? Because I live longer to dish out more damage. On a balanced team where I’m not the only escort, I survive much longer then they do, allowing me to put out more damage and get more kills. On unbalanced team, it doesn’t matter what type of captain you have, you’re toast. For example, I was on a team last night with 4 cruisers and me. Guess which ship was always the first target? Yes, in a pre-made group with people using voice chat and experienced players, I would have been fine. Those cruisers would have kept me alive and we’d have a good shot at winning. BUT THAT NEVER HAPPENS to the VAST majority of players. Most of us enjoy pvp in PUGs – if we’re lucky, someone calls targets and one or two of the cruisers/science vessels correctly heals/debuffs. If we’re really lucky, this group will stick together for three or four matches and we’ll have lots of fun. And even under these IDEAL conditions, your engineer/escort will shine.

What most people have been arguing about in this thread are conditions that are utterly alien to virtually every STO player. Yes, there are dedicated pvp groups who are used to working together and know exactly how to optimize their ships for maximum efficiency. And if you have the misfortune of facing them in combat, kiss your ass goodbye. Luckily, they’ll stomp you quickly so you can take your reward and move on. Thankfully, there’s little difference in this game between winning and losing. So who cares?! Because they represent such a small portion of the pvp universe (less then 1%), your chances of facing them are extremely thin.

Yes – in a match where a PVP fleet with optimized capabilities fights another PVP fleet with optimized capabilities, a tac/escort is likely slightly more effective than an engineer/escort. In those cases, the extra 5% of DPS that a tac captain can wring out of an escort may tip the balance. BUT YOU WILL NEVER BE IN THIS SITUATION.

Under PVP conditions that the VAST MAJORITY of us play under, and engineer/escort is a great combo. Just do a little reading and play to your strengths. Have fun!

This is an intelligent post in the sense you are emphasizing one of my main points.

You can get away with Engineer / Escort atm because of two main reasons - one of which is the fact that most PvPers are really bad.

[Archived Post]

You can get away with Engineer / Escort atm because of two main reasons - one of which is the fact that most PvPers are really bad.


understatement of the year.

[Archived Post]

understatement of the year.


Yes, were all bad. Leave us alone, were having fun.

I Hope and pray I Never see your min/max premade in PvP.

General Korthos

[Archived Post]

Yes, were all bad. Leave us alone, were having fun.

I Hope and pray I Never see your min/max premade in PvP.

General Korthos

Enjoy being below average.

[Archived Post]

Enjoy being below average.

You truly believe that using the cloned build of the month and playing in premade makes you suddenly more skilled ? :rolleyes: On the contrary, alot of people in premades are crap individually with very poor battle awareness..but every torpedo counts. On the other hand, there is lots of people, which pug on purpose, because they prefer challange, instead of boring streamrolling of others to "pwn" them or whatever it is those young people use today to describe the boost to their e-peen. :o

Skilled premades can win agains PUGs in T5 matches with T3 ships.

[Archived Post]

You truly believe that using the cloned build of the month and playing in premade makes you suddenly more skilled ?

Boy, Fleets like DoB MAKE THE FLAVOR OF THE MONTH

[Archived Post]

Skilled premades can win agains PUGs in T5 matches with T3 ships.

Truer words have never been spoken... ;)

[Archived Post]

Boy, Fleets like DoB MAKE THE FLAVOR OF THE MONTH

And the difference is ? :p

[Archived Post]

And the difference is ? :p

That they are the ones adapting to the competition, and shaping the metagame. It is not FoTM until people start copying them.

[Archived Post]

Skilled premades can win agains PUGs in T5 matches with T3 ships.

It's been done... By DOB... Check out my videos ;) Ok, so in all fairness, it was T4 ships, and a few matches it was me in T3 and 4 other in T4.

[Archived Post]

And the difference is ? :p

That one is an innovator while the other is an impersonator? Just sayin'...

[Archived Post]

That they are the ones adapting to the competition, and shaping the metagame. It is not FoTM until people start copying them.

Personally i wasnt impressed by them, the couple of times i met them doing dailes...

But perhaps you have different experience. I truly admit, that i do not care about fleets and who has got the bigger one...so in this area, im pretty lost.

[Archived Post]

Personally i wasnt impressed by them, the couple of times i met them doing dailes...

But perhaps you have different experience. I truly admit, that i do not care about fleets and who has got the bigger one...so in this area, im pretty lost.

DOB, they can field about 3 teams simultaniously, are extremely coordinated, have highly skilled players, and a leader with an exceedingly short fuse. They, unlike many fleets, will always provide a challenge when given the opprotunity

As a member of another competative pvp fleet, I can say that out of all the other fleets, they are the only fleet that has managed to beat us when we have assembled a reliable 5 man team. Note though, that I have never actually played against Section 31 with a premade - I think, It's been a REALLY long time since I last played against them.

[Archived Post]

*shrug* i dont do premades, because its too easy, no challange, no fun, nothing more to learn. If i meet a fleet, which doesnt use slug engines, RSP and TSS to prove their "skill", i will gladly join it. In the meanwhile, i will pug all the way :p

[Archived Post]

*shrug* i dont do premades, because its too easy, no challange, no fun, nothing more to learn. If i meet a fleet, which doesnt use slug engines, RSP and TSS to prove their "skill", i will gladly join it. In the meanwhile, i will pug all the way :p

It's all about personal preference, my fleet certainly won't force any personal choices that you don't want to (and I'm sure that most fleets won't either). None of the competative cruisers in the high-end pvp fleets bring more than 1 or 2 copies of RSP, instead they use healing and extend chains (oh so fragile but oh so awesome). I won't comment about TSS though.

[Archived Post]

*shrug* i dont do premades, because its too easy, no challange, no fun, nothing more to learn. If i meet a fleet, which doesnt use slug engines, RSP and TSS to prove their "skill", i will gladly join it. In the meanwhile, i will pug all the way :p

And I agree with you...if you like PUGs by all means stay with it. There are many times that being in a Premade group can seem like an easy win for the organized group. That would happen in any sport. Can you imagine how bad a professional football team would beat a group of guys off the street...thrown together...who can't communicate or call plays...and have never practiced together?

But if you have skill and teamwork you can challenge almost any Premade. We all have access to the same powers, captain types, ship types, and equipment. I'd love to see more players, like yourself, who enjoy PvP, band together to form organized fleets to raise the bar on the PvP community as a whole rather than simply say "I can't beat them so I'll continue to play with the lower tier guys." The level of PvP play in 99% of PUGs is so bad it's akin to that one average-looking girl hanging out with all of the fat ones. Sure, next to them you're a super model. But judged against the best you're back to average.

Don't be that chick...organize your fellow PUG'ers who are good and be the hot chick! ;)

[Archived Post]

There is no point in doing that, and you know it. No matter the individual skill, the ships with TSx + RSP would always win agains ships without it...thats game mechanics. I can only hope they will remove RSP and tone down dmg a bit, so the combat is more tactical (like T2) instead just a sequence of buttons which vaporizes the selected target.

I think i will follow Ayupans example and make an Anti-RSP crusade ! spamming about it all over the board, because that skill, which doesnt even make sense, makes me puke :p and im proud to not have used it since early february on my escorts :p

Something like, after all shield facings are replenished, the excess energy stored (X) in shields will overload the energy grid of the ship causing the 2*X hull dmg and disabling the shields for 10s ! Now that would make sense ! :p

[Archived Post]

There is no point in doing that, and you know it. No matter the individual skill, the ships with TSx + RSP would always win agains ships without it...thats game mechanics. I can only hope they will remove RSP and tone down dmg a bit, so the combat is more tactical (like T2) instead just a sequence of buttons which vaporizes the selected target.

truthfully, its not that bad. Extend chains offer about the same survivability while their up, but have a significanty longer uptime. Additionally, extend chains can spread to cover whoever needs the healing as opposed to RSP stacking which makes the cruisers just about useless if a different teammate is attacked. RSP is highly overrated in this game, yes it certainly is powerful but its not the end all be all of skills.

[Archived Post]

I think i will follow Ayupans example and make an Anti-RSP crusade ! spamming about it all over the board, because that skill, which doesnt even make sense, makes me puke :p and im proud to not have used it since early february on my escorts :p

Sounds like the blind leading the blind.

[Archived Post]

truthfully, its not that bad. Extend chains offer about the same survivability while their up, but have a significanty longer uptime. Additionally, extend chains can spread to cover whoever needs the healing as opposed to RSP stacking which makes the cruisers just about useless if a different teammate is attacked. RSP is highly overrated in this game, yes it certainly is powerful but its not the end all be all of skills.

But you can disable the shields of cruisers, so they dont extend. Even if you dont disable the subsystem, the heals will be considerable weaker. Not saying TSS is overpowered, because everyone has access to it..just saying if a skill is used so much that everyone has it, something is wrong.

And shoo Galkus

I would rather be a one-eyed king amongs blinds, than to be a sheep following a ram.

[Archived Post]

There is no point in doing that, and you know it. No matter the individual skill, the ships with TSx + RSP would always win agains ships without it...thats game mechanics. I can only hope they will remove RSP and tone down dmg a bit, so the combat is more tactical (like T2) instead just a sequence of buttons which vaporizes the selected target.

The problem is that game mechanics dictates hull tanking versus shield tanking and most are unprepared for that. When most PUG'ers pop an RSP they expect to be immune to all damage for 15 seconds like in PvE. The violence of action brought about by completely stripping that protection (whether it be TSS or SNB) can shock people who have the infamous DPS tunnel vision and cannot rapidly react or change tactics. Hull tanking through resistance stacking of Engineering Teams, Hazard Emitters, Dampening Fields, etc are what will carry you through that...but of course that requires teamwork. In PvP matches we have destroyed many a ship via bleed-through with multiple Attack Pattern Beta stacks and Sensor Scan.

Too many people rely on shields and shields alone to protect them and when removed or damaged they act like someone just ripped off their towel in the locker room...:D

[Archived Post]

I would rather be a one-eyed king amongs blinds, than to be a sheep following a ram.

But better to be the ram (DOB) in that situation than the sheep...:p

[Archived Post]

Yes but thats not my point :p my point was that you with TSx are able to strip their defences/weapons, while them without TSx are unable to strip yours RSP (unless its all cruisers with extended shields piloted by science captains). And thats it..TSx + RSP will always prevail over those who dont/or refuse to use it. No skill, but game mechanics :p

But better to be the ram (DOB) in that situation than the sheep...:p

I more of meant, the average joe playing in good fleet following the leader (ram), but alone be harmless like sheep :p

[Archived Post]

The thing is Dalnar, that it usually takes a well coordinated team for TSS to be effective, whereas it takes NO skill or coordination to pop 3 different versions of RSP one after the other...

[Archived Post]

Coordinated team ? Dont say me you trully believe that ? Huh ? It takes 2 players dropping out of full impulse to remove one targets shields completely (-99*2). For the majority of players one such TSS is enough. And its same level of player "skill", both those skills require nothing more, just a single button press. A tactical captain with tactical initiative can use 3x in 60s !!!!

Simple fix would require that the drain is affected by weapon power. Thus ship dropping out of full impulse with 5 weapon energy would cause little drain (5% so 5 in the 99 scenario).

[Archived Post]

The thing is Dalnar, that it usually takes a well coordinated team for TSS to be effective, whereas it takes NO skill or coordination to pop 3 different versions of RSP one after the other...

good fleets make it look easy. just saying "tss this target" doesn't normally work because of reaction times and whatnot - unless the opponents suck.

I still remember games against DOB, extend shields was extremely important against them, but when it came down to breaking their spikes, the only way to do it was through Engineering team 3 and prebuffing with hazard emitters. Hell, 90% of the spikes that I missed were because my **** was on cooldown, quite an agonizing moment.

[Archived Post]

Yes but thats not my point :p my point was that you with TSx are able to strip their defences/weapons, while them without TSx are unable to strip yours RSP (unless its all cruisers with extended shields piloted by science captains). And thats it..TSx + RSP will always prevail over those who dont/or refuse to use it. No skill, but game mechanics :p

Any Science Captain in any ship type can easily strip your RSP without TSS...it's called Subnucleonic Beam. Just ask Ayupan, he'll give you a Wall O' Text size dissertation on the subject. And in your explanations you indicate some of the same shield-centric thinking I alluded to. If a team builds their loadout to focus on RSP-stacking and TSS-stacking they are focused on one very specific aspect of combat. If a team can keep each other in the fight with hull heals or power transfers and good individual play, their advantage is negated and thus the BO-power stackers suffer. You should check out some of the DOB videos on YouTube to see effective combating of TSS and RSP being stacked against us.

There are many players who create builds without these powers. I have seen Escorts do insane damage without TS-anything. I have seen Cruisers tank without RSP. And I have seen Science vessels crowd control and disorient entire opposing fleets with Tractor Beam Repulsors, Scramble Sensors, and Tyken's Rift powers.

The formula of "QQ + Nerf = New Power to QQ About" is a never ending cycle for the DEV's. And at the root is the inability or unwillingness for players to adapt, integrate, and execute strategy in a teamwork structure.

[Archived Post]

The formula of "QQ + Nerf = New Power to QQ About" is a never ending cycle for the DEV's. And at the root is the inability or unwillingness for players to adapt, integrate, and execute strategy in a teamwork structure.

Thats true of course, but even you must see that if a skill A is used by 99% population and its considered a "must have", than its either that A is overpowered or B other skills are underpowered...or in case of STO, both at once.

But my point is not QQ, i can overcome anything. Just saying some skills are poorly designed and do not make sense, have huge gain without any drawback and such and on the other hand, there are skills with huge drawback, offering limited advantage (DEM).

[Archived Post]

Thats true of course, but even you must see that if a skill A is used by 99% population and its considered a "must have", than its either that A is overpowered or B other skills are underpowered...or in case of STO, both at once.

99% of PvP players use TSS? Really because I can count on one hand the amount of times I've had TSS stacked on me in a PUG match and of those times I've never had a drain of the extent that does not allow my shields to be easily recovered. In a lot of cases I will be hit with a TSS I or TSS II that doesn't even take my shields offline...more evidence of poor coordination and use if indeed there are multiple copies on the other team.

Premades through coordination and teamwork, however, can not only drop your shields but at times spike damage high enough to destroy your hull in the few second window they are down. Attack Pattern Beta I, II, and III is another example of a skill stack which can lead to insane amounts of damage resistance debuffing...upwards of 300% before factoring in Sensor Scan or Disruptor Breech.

The funniest thing is that so many people label certain powers as "must haves" to achieve victory in PvP. Sadly, they'll never realize that the only "must have" in PvP is teamwork and not TSS or RSP.

But my point is not QQ, i can overcome anything. Just saying some skills are poorly designed and do not make sense, have huge gain without any drawback and such and on the other hand, there are skills with huge drawback, offering limited advantage (DEM).

There are many powers of dubious quality...most Ensign level Tac powers and assorted Science and Engineering powers of all ranks. This certainly makes some powers more desirable than others but not necessarily as invaluable as you postulate. In a coordinated team structure almost any loadout can be viable (the original topic of this thread). For reference please view the YouTube video of DOB defeating another team with shields removed...;)

[Archived Post]

I meant 99% are using RSP...but i didnt say anything about useless skills, i said some compared to others provides more advantages and less disadvantages. I was using TSx since OB, more or less, and im pretty aware how "hard" is to stack it on someone. Again you compare in premade vs premade situations. While im speaking about premade agains ragtag pug whole time.

P.S. and please stop to point me to view your DOB videos...with all respect, i do not care about fleets or their premades ;)

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Coordinated team ? Dont say me you trully believe that ? Huh ? It takes 2 players dropping out of full impulse to remove one targets shields completely (-99*2). For the majority of players one such TSS is enough. And its same level of player "skill", both those skills require nothing more, just a single button press. A tactical captain with tactical initiative can use 3x in 60s !!!!

Are you seriously trying to contradict a DOB member on how TSS works? If you believe what is said on these forums, we are experts in the FOTM that is TSS. But joking aside, let me point out the flaws in your post.

1) Only escorts can use TSS3 and inflict a drain higher than -70.
2) TSS3 cannot be stacked together to create a -198 drain. Neither can 2xTSS2 or 1.
3) TSS2, with full spec into operations,sensors and sensor arrays captain skills, the best +sensor and +sensor array MK X purple deflector, and grandfathered MKX sensored consoles can drain shields for 65-70 AT MOST (Never seen TSS2 go higher than -60 myself). TSS1 is limited to science ship and drains for far far less.
4) It takes coordination between science and cruisers to get TSS1 + 2 off on the same target, TSS2 may be just enough to drop someone's shield, but is easely countered with EPtS.
5) It takes coordination between escorts and eng/science to get TSS1/2 + 3 off on the same target, if said target is a good player and can keep the TSS3 drain from draining his shields completely
6) Good coordination, more than TSS, is DOB's strenght. We focus fire on the same target and support one another. It is why we are able to survive other player's TSS1+2+3.


Simple fix would require that the drain is affected by weapon power. Thus ship dropping out of full impulse with 5 weapon energy would cause little drain (5% so 5 in the 99 scenario).

Anticipation fail, unlike some people, we do not full impulse into our opponents. But by all means, I support this change.

Just so we are clear, I don't even have TSS on my cruiser any longer, and have not had it for the past month at the very least. Also, unlike the vast majority of people on these forums would have you believe, we usually keep these skills for people who are too attached to the crutch that is RSP. With SNB also being a useful counter to it, the need for TSS has actually dropped significantly.

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I meant 99% are using RSP...but i didnt say anything about useless skills, i said some compared to others provides more advantages and less disadvantages. I was using TSx since OB, more or less, and im pretty aware how "hard" is to stack it on someone. Again you compare in premade vs premade situations. While im speaking about premade agains ragtag pug whole time.

And RSP is easily defeatable with focus fire, TSS, Subnucleonic Beam, Attack Pattern Beta stacking, etc. Reliance on RSP is the crutch of the unskilled...not the mark of a Premade. Your description of PUG's as "ragtag" only reinforces my point that it is the lack of coordination and not the lack of a de rigueur BO skill set which is their downfall. I'll issue you an open invitation to a 1v1 match anytime without the use of TSS, or any TSx for that matter, for you to be able to experience first-hand the abilities of a good cruiser pilot sans your fabled superpowered BO abilities...;)

P.S. and please stop to point me to view your DOB videos...with all respect, i do not care about fleets or their premades ;)

They were provided for a visual representation of the theories and postulates being discussed. Sometimes pictures can assist those who have difficulty comprehending the written word. You are free to view them or not. The fact that you'd discard a learning opportunity out of hand clearly indicates your membership in that portion of the PvP community that would rather expend energy on a forum board in hopes that the DEV's attempt to bring good players down to your level than utilize that same energy to improve and rise to the upper echelon.

In addition, if you do not care about fleets or their Premades why are you be having a multi-post discussion with several of them? Premades are a part of every online gaming community. PUG's are as well. By all means, please continue to preach from atop your mountain of morality and crumble before every Premade you face while desperately grasping to the idea that because you refuse to improve, utilize teamwork in a team oriented game, and can survive a few games in PUG vs PUG combat that it makes you superior or more skilled than Premade fleet members...:rolleyes:

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Im pretty sure that TSx II is around 71-72 on advanced escort with old +30 consoles. However tac in escort can use it 3x in 60s agains 3 enemies. So technically, you only need 1 tac escort with version III and one tac cruiser with version II to shut shields on 3 people in 60s once per 5mins.

However, the fact, that the skill doesnt need any energy, can be used right after full impulse with full power seems odd at least to me. It may not affect people, who actually think and not fly all over on full impulse. But there is plenty of situations, when i really felt the current mechanics are stupid.

Oh and btw thanks for repeating the TSx stuff to me, even when you didnt tell me anything new. Although i still think my memory is fine, considering my age :p

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They were provided for a visual representation of the theories and postulates being discussed. Sometimes pictures can assist those who have difficulty comprehending the written word. You are free to view them or not. The fact that you'd discard a learning opportunity out of hand clearly indicates your membership in that portion of the PvP community that would rather expend energy on a forum board in hopes that the DEV's attempt to bring good players down to your level than utilize that same energy to improve and rise to the upper echelon.

Its useless without the view from victim points. Because you learn from mistakes of others, not to watch "pros" do it.

In addition, if you do not care about fleets or their Premades why are you be having a multi-post discussion with several of them? Premades are a part of every online gaming community. PUG's are as well. By all means, please continue to preach from atop your mountain of morality and crumble before every Premade you face while desperately grasping to the idea that because you refuse to improve, utilize teamwork in a team oriented game, and can survive a few games in PUG vs PUG combat that it makes you superior or more skilled than Premade fleet members...:rolleyes:

Ohh and i wondered when this will come...it has nothing to do with premades, pugs, improving or sucking. It turned into it for some obscure reason, if you havent said DOB, 10x in each your post, and said at least 3x i should check DOB videos i wouldnt even know, that you are part of it.
Beside you are putting words in my mouth i never said. The only thing i said, i do not care about premades nor fleets, because i find pugs much more enjoyable and fun and that i find the overuse of some abilties boring and stupid. Thats it.
The "By all means, please continue to preach from atop your mountain of morality and crumble before every Premade you face while desperately grasping to the idea that because you refuse to improve, utilize teamwork in a team oriented game, and can survive a few games in PUG vs PUG combat that it makes you superior or more skilled than Premade fleet members" was something you just made up :o in an attempt to lecture and belittle me, but sadly did smell with elitism badly.

Peace :p

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Im pretty sure that TSx II is around 71-72 on advanced escort with old +30 consoles. However tac in escort can use it 3x in 60s agains 3 enemies. So technically, you only need 1 tac escort with version III and one tac cruiser with version II to shut shields on 3 people in 60s once per 5mins.

However, the fact, that the skill doesnt need any energy, can be used right after full impulse with full power seems odd at least to me. It may not affect people, who actually think and not fly all over on full impulse. But there is plenty of situations, when i really felt the current mechanics are stupid.

Oh and btw thanks for repeating the TSx stuff to me, even when you didnt tell me anything new. Although i still think my memory is fine, considering my age :p

I did get a little carried away in my explanation, but from your post it seemed like you were saying you could stack a ton of TSS3 on one person and drain him into the stone age.

Like I said, I would not be against the drain being a function of weapon power setting, and as a matter of fact I support that idea.

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Its useless without the view from victim points. Because you learn from mistakes of others, not to watch "pros" do it./[quote]

If you had taken the time to read what I wrote (there's that pesky comprehension thing again) I stated to watch as we defended TSS and combated RSP. Not to watch and see if or how we used it. In addition, the reference to watching a video of us winning without any shields equipped should serve as an excellent primer to you as to how to properly hull tank and survive battles without shields, thereby nullifying the opposition's use of TSS.

[QUOTE=Dalnar]if you havent said DOB, 10x in each your post, and said at least 3x i should check DOB videos i wouldnt even know, that you are part of it.

Which would be another issue of the lack of reading comprehension as it's in my signature. Or do you not read all the way down? ;)

Beside you are putting words in my mouth i never said. The only thing i said, i do not care about premades nor fleets, because i find pugs much more enjoyable and fun and that i find the overuse of some abilties boring and stupid. Thats it.

Wrong...this is what you said (nice try though):

P.S. and please stop to point me to view your DOB videos...with all respect, i do not care about fleets or their premades ;)

And as for this:

The "By all means, please continue to preach from atop your mountain of morality and crumble before every Premade you face while desperately grasping to the idea that because you refuse to improve, utilize teamwork in a team oriented game, and can survive a few games in PUG vs PUG combat that it makes you superior or more skilled than Premade fleet members" was something you just made up :o in an attempt to lecture and belittle me, but sadly did smell with elitism badly.

As I stated earlier...regardless of your general attitude towards improvement and advancement within the game structure I still humbly extend my offer of an in-combat education to you at a time of your choosing. Until then, those who are better at piloting a keyboard on a forum board versus a starship in-game will continue to demand that better players be hindered rather then poor players elevate their level of ability.

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For some obscure reason, you think, that someone, who does PUG on purpose is a crappy player who does refuse to learn or improve. The fact that i overlooked your fleet webpage doesnt have anything to do with lack of reading comprehension, it just mean i do not care about people signatures or their fleet pages ? Beside im at work, and im not able to stream stuff here atm.

But please if that satisfies your need of superiority, i admit, that im a very crappy player, im absolutely horrible team player, no fleet wants me, i have no idea about game mechanics, my battle awareness sucks, my ship and skill loadout suck and I only moan and QQ, and cry nerf havoc and let loose the whines of war!

To boost your e-peen i also admit that you are the best, most experienced and skilled STO player around and that DOB is the best !!
:o

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Beside im at work, and im not able to stream stuff here atm.

Nice! Getting paid to talk to me all night is just about the coolest job imaginable!

i admit, that im a very crappy player, im absolutely horrible team player, no fleet wants me, i have no idea about game mechanics, my battle awareness sucks, my ship and skill loadout suck and I only moan and QQ, and cry nerf havoc and let loose the whines of war!

i also admit that you are the best, most experienced and skilled STO player around and that DOB is the best !!

In that case I retract all my previous statements...you are learning...;)

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In that case I retract all my previous statements...you are learning...;)

But sadly, you have learned nothing :cool:

P.S. I used to even play STO and work at same time, but alas, as people improved, was hard to do everything with one hand only. So now im just lurking on forums :o

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But sadly, you have learned nothing :cool:

"To attempt to 'learn' from the uninformed, uneducated, or inexperienced is to undo the logic of intelligence and pervert the natural process of knowledge formation..."

Dr. Americo Rosales, PhD.

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"To attempt to 'learn' from the uninformed, uneducated, or inexperienced is to undo the logic of intelligence and pervert the natural process of knowledge formation..."

Dr. Americo Rosales, PhD.

Some people will never learn anything, for this reason, because they understand everything too soon. ~Alexander Pope

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Some people will never learn anything, for this reason, because they understand everything too soon. ~Alexander Pope

Awesome quote for yourself. Really, you are doing an exceptional job of delving into your own subconscious. I almost feel like a therapist here walking you through a major breakthrough! You have "understood" the game's mechanics too soon and thoroughly misunderstood the tactical and strategic implications of gameplay. But hey, I'm here to help whenever possible...hence the open 1v1 offer that has been bypassed and conveniently left out of quoted material several times. Any time you'd like to put Mr. Pope's interpretation of your "understanding" to a functional test you can find me or one of my fleetmates in game...;)

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The fact, that you dont see it fits you exactly, proves it :p Your offer is flattering, but since your combat methods will differ very much from my own, you cant teach me anything new, sorry. Unless you want to show me some new trick with mines ;). Beside, if you are so good as you claim, you would know that 1v1 means nothing. :o

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this is fun

"It is easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them."

Alfred Adler

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this is fun

"It is easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them."

Alfred Adler

There's always the classic...

"I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent."

Or the very applicable...

""Never argue with an idiot, they drag you down to their level then beat you with experience."

;)

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You can also add "self-congratulation stinks" to it. ;)

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Your offer is flattering, but since your combat methods will differ very much from my own, you cant teach me anything new, sorry. Unless you want to show me some new trick with mines...

The mere fact that you feel you cannot learn anything new from an admitted different playstyle then your own only reinforces the lack of understanding. It is in playing with and against varied types of players and playstyles through which we learn. Playing with those whose styles are identical to ours contributes nothing while only reinforcing misconceptions and negative attributes...;)

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The mere fact that you feel you cannot learn anything new from an admitted different playstyle then your own only reinforces the lack of understanding. It is in playing with and against varied types of players and playstyles through which we learn. Playing with those whose styles are identical to ours contributes nothing while only reinforcing misconceptions and negative attributes...;)

But you are assuming, that i never learned "normal" playstyle before ? I know its maybe hard to admit, but maybe im one step ahead ? :p haha :o But hey, think what you want, the mere fact we will probably never meet in battle, because when i work you play and vice versa, makes all this pure theory :p

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There's always the classic...

"I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent."

Or the very applicable...

""Never argue with an idiot, they drag you down to their level then beat you with experience."

;)

those are good ones

"Eating words has never given me indigestion"

Winston Churchill


and I'm spent

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But you are assuming, that i never learned "normal" playstyle before ? I know its maybe hard to admit, but maybe im one step ahead ? :p haha :o But hey, think what you want, the mere fact we will probably never meet in battle, because when i work you play and vice versa, makes all this pure theory :p

I'm playing right now...care for a match?

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I'm playing right now...care for a match?

Im at work and gaming laptop at home :mad: My playtime usually starts at 19 GTM.

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Im at work and gaming laptop at home :mad: My playtime usually starts at 19 GTM.

I wanna get my fleet's hands around dalnar lol. It's because we play against alot of different stratagies that fleets can streamline what works best for them. Additionally, having multiple stratagies/playstyles can throw a proverbial monkey wrench in any well thought out plan.

by playing against stuff you don't normally play you learn what best counters what, see things that you didn't think you would see, and to some people - enjoy the game more.