Memory Alpha is a Store

[Archived Post]

It's a store. It just takes different kinds of currency.

I'm enjoying it. It gives me something to do with my ECs. Plus, it makes things like radiation samples sell on the exchange, which is fun, I guess.

I like the changes, but it's a far cry from crafting.

It's basically a complicated set of vendors with very particular demands.

[Archived Post]

I like the new interface, but what we're actually making needs to change.

Really what we should be doing is making items with blank upgrade slots and then making upgrades that can be installed in those slots.

For example making a 'blank kit' with slots on it (number appropriate to rank of item) and then being able to plug in the abilities we want on it.

Or making a gun or rifle and plugging in the options we want on them. Thats the kind of thing that would make it awesome.

But in its current state, yeah its just a store with an annoying payment plan.

[Archived Post]

It's a store. It just takes different kinds of currency.

I'm enjoying it. It gives me something to do with my ECs. Plus, it makes things like radiation samples sell on the exchange, which is fun, I guess.

I like the changes, but it's a far cry from crafting.

It's basically a complicated set of vendors with very particular demands.

Actually, almost everything in an MMO boils down to a database transaction.

Your ship slots are actually "bags" on your ship puppet account.

Your captain skills are settings on your "captain" account.

The power tray is an array of inventory items pulled from hidden bags that have region rules.

Memory alpha uses the "list-row" array gen that pulls items from a database and lists them in a row with specific item data displayed. We then use the secure transaction button to ensure that when you are in the transaction of exchanging several items from your inventory bag for another item (all database transactions) it is a safe transaction and will not result in lost bits if you happen to get disconected or log out at that moment.

[Archived Post]

Is this a joke? Did you seriously spend over 100 days for this?!! There are no new "Recipes" just a new point system applied to the tired old crap that everyone past RA3 doesn't need or want!

What kind of craptastic up date is this? :mad::mad::mad::mad:

STO is turning into one big sewer treatment plant, crap in - recycle it - crap out.

[Archived Post]

Is this a joke? Did you seriously spend over 100 days for this?!! There are no new "Recipes" just a new point system applied to the tired old crap that everyone past RA3 doesn't need or want!

What kind of craptastic up date is this?

STO is turning into one big sewer treatment plant, crap in - recycle it - crap out.

Atleast you have a free lifetime membership, so you don't have to pay for it :o

I rather like the facelift MA has received. I agree that we need more varied and useful items to research and develop though.

[Archived Post]

The interface (and explanations) were needed. It's largely the similar system but at least there's visual feedback now.

[Archived Post]

Atleast you have a free lifetime membership, so you don't have to pay for it

.

300 bucks = Free :confused::confused::confused::confused:

[Archived Post]

It's a store. It just takes different kinds of currency.

Not true. If it were a store, it would have its own sub-forum like the C-Store does.

Ergo, it's not a store.

[Archived Post]

300 bucks = Free :confused:

Hehe, he was a contest winner back in the day (2008). Notice the special member title below the name :)

[Archived Post]

Atleast you have a free lifetime membership, so you don't have to pay for it :o

Which sadly is the only reason I still play.

I rather like the facelift MA has received. I agree that we need more varied and useful items to research and develop though.

I like the facelift as well, but its a nothing but graphics which should have taken 30 days at MOST for some code toad to bang out.

There is no SUBSTANCE ADDED Cryptic continues to set the bar low and fails to clear it. :mad:

What's even worse is it's a friggen template that is applied to a common item, nothing new nothing different from the same item you could get if it dropped in an instance!!

How hard is it to put in a template for every item in the stupid game! If thats all the thought, time, effort and energy these devs are going to give Mem Alpha?:mad:

[Archived Post]

300 bucks = Free

Is this a joke? Did you seriously spend over 100 nanoseconds typing that? There are no new "posts" in this thread just a new math formula for lifetime subscription conversion rates applied to the tired old subscription that everyone past the free demo doesn't need or want!

This game launched incomplete!

Cryptic ignores klingons!

I spent valueless energy credits to craft to Tier 2 and now have to spend more valueless energy credits to craft in this system!

I hate the world more than tupac did when got convicted!

;)

[Archived Post]

I like the facelift as well, but its a nothing but graphics which should have taken 30 days at MOST for some code toad to bang out.

There is no SUBSTANCE ADDED Cryptic continues to set the bar low and fails to clear it. :mad:

Well, you have to admit it's a step in the right direction though. Even just with the UI Facelift, it's much better than the guess work before. I'm confident that this won't be the last update to Memory Alpha.

[Archived Post]

Hehe, he was a contest winner back in the day (2008). Notice the special member title below the name

Oh lol, hey Signalsgt if you don't like the game, don't waste it, send me your account info to the link in my SIG :D:D:D:D

[Archived Post]

Well, you have to admit it's a step in the right direction though. Even just with the UI Facelift, it's much better than the guess work before. I'm confident that this won't be the last update to Memory Alpha.

It's not a step in the right direction, it's the start of the path Cryptic should have set up in the first place. We haven't MOVED anywhere.

[Archived Post]

Well, you have to admit it's a step in the right direction though. Even just with the UI Facelift, it's much better than the guess work before. I'm confident that this won't be the last update to Memory Alpha.

I'm sure a dev said this was the step one on fix memory alpha

[Archived Post]

How hard is it to put in a template for every item in the stupid game! If thats all the thought, time, effort and energy these devs are going to give Mem Alpha?:mad:
It takes a while - they have to balance the relative value of each item, relative samples required versus benefit, etc.

I'm hoping a system comes up where we can experiment with our gear by applying attributes ourselves - instead of a set blueprint.

[Archived Post]

I'm sure a dev said this was the step one on fix memory alpha

It has been stated that they wanted to get the new interface/tier system working before adding new recipies or other such expansion.

[Archived Post]

It takes a while - they have to balance the relative value of each item, relative samples required versus benefit, etc.

I'm hoping a system comes up where we can experiment with our gear by applying attributes ourselves - instead of a set blueprint.

Memory Alpha is negated once you hit RA3 and start running your daily's, this is straight up unacceptable.

[Archived Post]

Maybe it's just from being an Engineer in ******** but the four REAL differences between Memory Alpha and what I'd consider a true crafting system are:

- Randomness. That means a chance of creating an extra item or getting an extra skill point or creating a higher quality item by mistake. Crafting is not predictable at its best.

- Blueprints/diagrams/etc. Learning to make something other people can't make. You can do this with drops or currency or even daily quests that award bags with a random blueprint but disparity of recipes is what makes a crafter feel "unique".

- The ability to either do it anywhere or in more places. Every example of crafting I can think of in another game allows you to either do it everywhere or at a variety of hubs. This might be aboard your ship or at a starbase or a designated hub in each sector block but going one place to do it just feels wrong.

- The ability to make things other than weapons. Maybe it's new and better consumables. Maybe it's shuttlecraft type pets or android/hologram BOs. Maybe it's moon boots that let you jump around like you can on the Hobus mission or gas grenades that confuse your enemies into attacking eachother or surgical kits to change your race the way we saw them do it on TNG/DS9/Voyager. Maybe it's an item you can consume to reset the cooldown of transwarp. But crafting generally has quality of life/novelty features beyond gear.

Address these four things and you're solid. I think what you did in the patch was a necessary first step but it's still more like a store than a crafting system because the exchange is so transparent, so limited in terms of what you can do with it and where you can do it and, ultimately, utilitarian enough that it does feel like a store with anomalies basically being Super Mario Bros. coins instead of giving you the feeling that you made something.

Hope these four points are helpful feedback. I'm sure you've thought of at least some of them, maybe from another angle. But I think you address these four things and you're good.

[Archived Post]

It's basically a complicated set of vendors with very particular demands.

kind of like in WoW where you go off and gather herbs, go back to town, buy some empty vials, and 'craft' them into potions?

yeah..

[Archived Post]

It has been stated that they wanted to get the new interface/tier system working before adding new recipies or other such expansion.

So Presidents Day of 2013 Memory Alpha will become relevant?

[Archived Post]

By the way, Cryptic, the instructions could be less cryptic, although I'm starting to think that you guys take pleasure in confusing players.

Let people know how to access the other tabs, and who they need to talk to specifically. The instructions here are pretty similar to some of the earlier mission where the admiral tells you what sector to go to, but not what planet to go to... or when he uses one name for the planet while the map uses a different name.

I'm still confused by this. I was able to get the science npc to unlock Energy fields but the other tabs are not accessible. The other bots don't give me options.

You should explain stuff.

[Archived Post]

We then use the secure transaction button to ensure that when you are in the transaction of exchanging several items from your inventory bag for another item (all database transactions) it is a safe transaction and will not result in lost bits if you happen to get disconected or log out at that moment.

This made me chuckle.

[Archived Post]

Not true. If it were a store, it would have its own sub-forum like the C-Store does.

Ergo, it's not a store.

It doesn't have its own subforum because Cryptic has already maxed out their subforum allotment with like 52 sub-forums.

[Archived Post]

By the way, Cryptic, the instructions could be less cryptic, although I'm starting to think that you guys take pleasure in confusing players.

Let people know how to access the other tabs, and who they need to talk to specifically. The instructions here are pretty similar to some of the earlier mission where the admiral tells you what sector to go to, but not what planet to go to... or when he uses one name for the planet while the map uses a different name.

I'm still confused by this. I was able to get the science npc to unlock Energy fields but the other tabs are not accessible. The other bots don't give me options.

You should explain stuff.
You only get to unlock one specialty.
This is why Romain had you speak to each person before selecting your tier 2 specialty.
The other grayed-out tabs were specialties you didn't choose.

The more you know! ==★

[Archived Post]

You only get to unlock one specialty.
This is why Romain had you speak to each person before selecting your tier 2 specialty.
The other grayed-out tabs were specialties you didn't choose.

The more you know! ==★

So once I max out Energy Fields, then I'll get access to other tabs?

[Archived Post]

Memory alpha uses the "list-row" array gen that pulls items from a database and lists them in a row with specific item data displayed. We then use the secure transaction button to ensure that when you are in the transaction of exchanging several items from your inventory bag for another item (all database transactions) it is a safe transaction and will not result in lost bits if you happen to get disconected or log out at that moment.

NO! The mystery is gone! Talk about breaking immersion...

;)

(Just kidding, thanks for the tech side peaking through once in awhile.)
Duncan

[Archived Post]

So once I max out Energy Fields, then I'll get access to other tabs?

As far as I know, you're stuck with Energy Fields research. :(

I may be wrong but I've never been able to add a separate field.

[Archived Post]

As far as I know, you're stuck with Energy Fields research. :(

I may be wrong but I've never been able to add a separate field.

But Romaine says something like, "If you visit MA often, you can master all fields," or something like that.

[Archived Post]

As far as I know, you're stuck with Energy Fields research. :(

I may be wrong but I've never been able to add a separate field.

I have all items available to me from all tree's.

[Archived Post]

I have all items available to me from all tree's.

How did you do that? I earned 500 pts in the "general R and D" and then visited a npc and was given the option "unlock Energy Fields." That tab is unlocked but no other npcs give me similar options. They just want to tell me about themselves.

BTW: A bit nicer of a job adding some personality to some of the npcs, Cryptic. I liked the mental girl who talks too much.

[Archived Post]

Once you achieve 500 skill in the initial research tree - you will get a mission via remote contact to go talk to the other researchers. Once you do so - then you will be able to start progressing in those tabs.

[Archived Post]

How did you do that?

I have been the primary Memory Alpha guy for my fleet. When the game first launched I spent at least an hour a night sitting there as my Fleet Mates filtered through. So I've probably modified in the 1,000's of items range by now.

[Archived Post]

Once you achieve 500 skill in the initial research tree - you will get a mission via remote contact to go talk to the other researchers. Once you do so - then you will be able to start progressing in those tabs.

Thanks.

So, once Memory Alpha's surveillance team monitors my RandD efforts, they contact Starfleet which makes a decision to grant me access to other types of RandD. Then, they contact the individual specialists, ordering them to grant me access, and afterwards, I get a mission from my superiors to go back to MA to obtain access to what was previously restricted, except for the science guy who apparently has no regard for the proper chain of command.

That's a whole lot of bureaucracy that seems counter-intuitive. I would suggest a simple ingame prompt telling me to go talk to x, y, and z.

[Archived Post]

Actually, almost everything in an MMO boils down to a database transaction.

That may be true, but its no excuse for making a shallow crafting system. Other games have managed to create crafting systems that actually seem like crafting, so its not some impossible task.

[Archived Post]

That may be true, but its no excuse for making a shallow crafting system. Other games have managed to create crafting systems that actually seem like crafting, so its not impossible.

But it doesn't disguise its capitalistic nature, Grand Nagus. You of all people should appreciate the shallowness.

[Archived Post]

That may be true, but its no excuse for making a shallow crafting system. Other games have managed to create crafting systems that actually seem like crafting, so its not impossible.

Oh I'm well aware. I played a ton of Horizons and that game was all crafting... and not much else. It is why we needed to fix what was added in for launch - so that we can spend the time to make it into something that resembles what most of us crafting gurus want.

[Archived Post]

But it doesn't disguise its capitalistic nature, Grand Nagus. You of all people should appreciate the shallowness.

The fact that Cryptic called it a "crafting" system in the first place WAS disguising its true nature :o

[Archived Post]

Oh I'm well aware. I played a ton of Horizons and that game was all crafting... and not much else. It is why we needed to fix what was added in for launch - so that we can spend the time to make it into something that resembles what most of us crafting gurus want.

Glad to hear that, believe you me. Is there any sort of approximate time frame before it may be in the state you want?

[Archived Post]

The fact that Cryptic called it a "crafting" system in the first place WAS disguising its true nature :o

I'm sure there is a rule of acquisition that justifies it, lol.

[Archived Post]

Oh I'm well aware. I played a ton of Horizons and that game was all crafting... and not much else. It is why we needed to fix what was added in for launch - so that we can spend the time to make it into something that resembles what most of us crafting gurus want.

That's good to hear, STO was one of the first systems for crafting that I was excited about. Not making new items out of nowhere but upgrading current items with cool new stuff like Voyager and Scotty did all the time.

On a side note I'd like to point out that it's good to see that you guys have played some good games before STO, it makes me feel like you want sector space and the like improved as much as we do.

[Archived Post]

I'm sure there is a rule of acquisition that justifies it, lol.

Are you kidding? There's definitly a rule that encourages it, or more likely requires it.

[Archived Post]

Are you kidding? There's definitly a rule that encourages it, or more likely requires it.

lmao

/10chars

[Archived Post]

The fact that Cryptic called it a "crafting" system in the first place WAS disguising its true nature :o
I'm sure there is a rule of acquisition that justifies it, lol.

Rule of Acquisition #239:

"Never be afraid to mislabel a product."

;)

[Archived Post]

Oh I'm well aware. I played a ton of Horizons and that game was all crafting... and not much else. It is why we needed to fix what was added in for launch - so that we can spend the time to make it into something that resembles what most of us crafting gurus want.

You are considering this a fix? Really?

Since your aware of other crafting methodologies, what was the reasoning that brought about Memory Alpha?

Applying a template to a common item to make it a carbon copy of something that could be obtained in a drop is not crafting. In STO's case, it's changing out circuitry. The entire reason people like to craft is the ability to make something that is slightly better then what can be found in-game for themselves and their Fleet Mates. There is no reason to even GO to Mem Alpha when you can grind your way to RA3 then just grind out the Daily's and skip Mem Alpha in its entirety and not miss anything.

[Archived Post]

Rule of Acquisition #239:

"Never be afraid to mislabel a product."

;)

Ok, that made me laugh for the first time since I got on tonight. :D

[Archived Post]

Actually, almost everything in an MMO boils down to a database transaction.

Your ship slots are actually "bags" on your ship puppet account.

Your captain skills are settings on your "captain" account.

The power tray is an array of inventory items pulled from hidden bags that have region rules.

Memory alpha uses the "list-row" array gen that pulls items from a database and lists them in a row with specific item data displayed. We then use the secure transaction button to ensure that when you are in the transaction of exchanging several items from your inventory bag for another item (all database transactions) it is a safe transaction and will not result in lost bits if you happen to get disconected or log out at that moment.

In most of those examples the game does a very good job of not making it obvious that the transaction is just a transaction. Sadly Memory Alpha still doesn't. It is better having a console rather than NPCs just trading you stuff but over all the crafting is very uninspired.

[Archived Post]

Rule of Acquisition #239:

"Never be afraid to mislabel a product."

;)

You sir rock in your geekiness!

[Archived Post]

Are you kidding? There's definitly a rule that encourages it, or more likely requires it.

Rule number 239:
Never be afraid to mislabel a product.

From the DS9 Episode, Body Parts.

EDIT: Oops, someone beat me to it.

[Archived Post]

Once you achieve 500 skill in the initial research tree - you will get a mission via remote contact to go talk to the other researchers. Once you do so - then you will be able to start progressing in those tabs.

you realize that i never knew that a new quest opened up to talk to other researchers. that is never mentioned and with all the remote contacts clouding my interaction with Star Fleet anyway, I would have never found it anyway. I tested the hell out of the system on tribble, not sure how many char I put thru it and NEVER noticed the quest.

As for today in memory alpha, just hanging out listening to people, most didn't care about anything except the lack of good items to craft. Not once did anyone say, "Oh you maxed general, now get a quest and it will help you unlock the other stores." I honestly think no one knows about that quest.

[Archived Post]

Rule number 239:
Never be afraid to mislabel a product.

From the DS9 Episode, Body Parts.

EDIT: Oops, someone beat me to it.

A noble effort, but a bit late to the party.

[Archived Post]

Maybe it's just from being an Engineer in ******** but the four REAL differences between Memory Alpha and what I'd consider a true crafting system are:

- Randomness. That means a chance of creating an extra item or getting an extra skill point or creating a higher quality item by mistake. Crafting is not predictable at its best.

- Blueprints/diagrams/etc. Learning to make something other people can't make. You can do this with drops or currency or even daily quests that award bags with a random blueprint but disparity of recipes is what makes a crafter feel "unique".

- The ability to either do it anywhere or in more places. Every example of crafting I can think of in another game allows you to either do it everywhere or at a variety of hubs. This might be aboard your ship or at a starbase or a designated hub in each sector block but going one place to do it just feels wrong.

- The ability to make things other than weapons. Maybe it's new and better consumables. Maybe it's shuttlecraft type pets or android/hologram BOs. Maybe it's moon boots that let you jump around like you can on the Hobus mission or gas grenades that confuse your enemies into attacking eachother or surgical kits to change your race the way we saw them do it on TNG/DS9/Voyager. Maybe it's an item you can consume to reset the cooldown of transwarp. But crafting generally has quality of life/novelty features beyond gear.

Address these four things and you're solid. I think what you did in the patch was a necessary first step but it's still more like a store than a crafting system because the exchange is so transparent, so limited in terms of what you can do with it and where you can do it and, ultimately, utilitarian enough that it does feel like a store with anomalies basically being Super Mario Bros. coins instead of giving you the feeling that you made something.

Hope these four points are helpful feedback. I'm sure you've thought of at least some of them, maybe from another angle. But I think you address these four things and you're good.


perfect......nothing more to say. This simply hits the nail on the head!

[Archived Post]

Memory Alpha shouldn't be a crafting system in the first place. More like a collective database with personal contributions allowing you to modify your captain, crew or ship. Generating items shouldn't be involved.

Memory Alpha (also called The Memory Planet)
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Memory_Alpha

I don't feel like I meet new civilizations, collect interesting new information nor share it in any meaningful way. Either way it should not feel like a traditional crafting system nor should it simply be a trade in your space junk program.

[Archived Post]

I'm sure there is a rule of acquisition that justifies it, lol.

It's rule 239 - Never be afraid to mislabel a product XD

EDIT: Sheesh this thread moves fast.

[Archived Post]

EDIT: Sheesh this thread moves fast.

10 mins since the first person posted it?

[Archived Post]

10 mins since the first person posted it?

Where were you Grand Nagus? Shouldn't you have the rules of acquisition memorized?

[Archived Post]

Since your aware of other crafting methodologies, what was the reasoning that brought about Memory Alpha?

This is something I've wondered before. Exactly who thought Memory Alpha, as it existed at launch, would be fun? Is that person still working on STO, designing new content for the future? If so, I am genuinely concerned.

[Archived Post]

This is something I've wondered before. Exactly who thought Memory Alpha, as it existed at launch, would be fun? Is that person still working on STO, designing new content for the future? If so, I am genuinely concerned.


I'm pretty sure that it was a rushed together afterthought. Like other aspects of the game, the environment designers did nice work, while the other devs lacked anything resembling a vision for the place.

Is it any wonder that Cryptic is now trying to find new environment designers and other artists? The artists do their job quite well, but the people responsible for making something useful out of those environments seem lost and confused.

Ex: the miners' mission. It was a beautiful landscape full of potential, but it received a stupid quiz that didn't even require players to explore the environment that the artists produced.

[Archived Post]

This is something I've wondered before. Exactly who thought Memory Alpha, as it existed at launch, would be fun? Is that person still working on STO, designing new content for the future? If so, I am genuinely concerned.

Well we know for sure that the guy who did the revamp is working on diplomacy, lol.

[Archived Post]

This is something I've wondered before. Exactly who thought Memory Alpha, as it existed at launch, would be fun? Is that person still working on STO, designing new content for the future? If so, I am genuinely concerned.

Tell me about it, it's like being at a bar drinking with your friends and seeing a guy at the end being completely drunk. Then the next morning when you show up to the flight line you see the same guy working on the engine of the Helo your about to climb into.

Not a great feeling of confidence...

[Archived Post]

I'm pretty sure that it was a rushed together afterthought. Like other aspects of the game, the environment designers did nice work, while the other devs lacked anything resembling a vision for the place.

Is it any wonder that Cryptic is now trying to find new environment designers and other artists? The artists do their job quite well, but the people responsible for making something useful out of those environments seem lost and confused.

Ex: the miners' mission. It was a beautiful landscape full of potential, but it received a stupid quiz that didn't even require players to explore the environment that the artists produced.

I agree with this in many instances, but the whole 18 months development time with a much smaller than average team comes into play here.

But yes, the artists did a fabulous job throughout IMO.

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Well we know for sure that the guy who did the revamp is working on diplomacy, lol.

Diiplomacy:

Do you wish to buy off the Klingons?
Do you wish to buy weapons to defeat the Klingons?
Do you wish to die and lose your energy credits?

[Archived Post]

Is this a joke? Did you seriously spend over 100 days for this?!! There are no new "Recipes" just a new point system applied to the tired old crap that everyone past RA3 doesn't need or want!

What kind of craptastic up date is this? :mad::mad::mad::mad:

STO is turning into one big sewer treatment plant, crap in - recycle it - crap out.

Since you seem to have missed it somewhere, the Devs plainly stated some time ago that stage one (this one) of the MA overhaul was getting the UI working properly and giving useful feedback to the players. Not once was there a promise of new content for MA with this particular update.

Personally, I'm willing to wait and see where crafting goes.

[Archived Post]

Diiplomacy:

Do you wish to buy off the Klingons?
Do you wish to buy weapons to defeat the Klingons?
Do you wish to die and loss your energy credits?

I'm sure it won't be that bad, we know there will be a new diplomatic skill tree involved and a system to decide how well you did to determine many points you got.

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I am personally disappointed with MA. I also believe that MA and the lack of crafting is the reason that STO can't keep players as well. MA is the most disappointing thing about this whole game.

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I hate the world more than tupac did when got convicted!

I wanted to point out that Tupac is dead... wormfood, a decayed corpse of himself.

Sorry - could not resist given i have like 5 co-workers that swear Tupac lives.

But to make sure this is not counted on trolling... I need an STO comment. So without further a-do:

I really look forward to the changes at Memory Alpha once my patch gets done patching.

Blak

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I wanted to point out that Tupac is dead... wormfood, a decayed corpse of himself.

Sorry - could not resist given i have like 5 co-workers that swear Tupac lives.

But to make sure this is not counted on trolling... I need an STO comment. So without further a-do:

I really look forward to the changes at Memory Alpha once my patch gets done patching.

Blak

Tupac is alive, he just went home to Vulcan.

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While I'm glad improvments are being made I'm not sure there is any loot worth crafting. I'm still only a captain on my main char since I'm playing the game so slow. But I haven't gone to MA more then once since launch.

I always knew the existing system was lame and was going to be revamped so I didn't bother with it. But now that the initial update is up is there anything there worth crafting? Or should I continue my quest to RA5 and just live with the loot I get from quests and drops?

[Archived Post]

While I'm glad improvments are being made I'm not sure there is any loot worth crafting. I'm still only a captain on my main char since I'm playing the game so slow. But I haven't gone to MA more then once since launch.

I always knew the existing system was lame and was going to be revamped so I didn't bother with it. But now that the initial update is up is there anything there worth crafting? Or should I continue my quest to RA5 and just live with the loot I get from quests and drops?

Get to RA3, go talk to Karbo and run your dailies, the purples you get with the marks are superior to anything you can upgrade at Mem Alpha.

You will do better playing on advanced then you ever will wasting time up in Mem Alpha.

[Archived Post]

Get to RA3, go talk to Karbo and run your dailies, the purples you get with the marks are superior to anything you can upgrade at Mem Alpha.

You will do better playing on advanced then you ever will wasting time up in Mem Alpha.

Thanks that's what I figured. I'm just hording my anomolies for when I'm hard up for cash or for the day we can actually craft something good. It would be awesome if as a fleet you could pool your resources and make something bad ass like space dock or something.

[Archived Post]

I wanted to point out that Tupac is dead... wormfood, a decayed corpse of himself.

Sorry - could not resist given i have like 5 co-workers that swear Tupac lives.

But to make sure this is not counted on trolling... I need an STO comment. So without further a-do:

I really look forward to the changes at Memory Alpha once my patch gets done patching.

Blak


:)

But ... but ... I wrote that post a LONG TIME AGO ... in Nintety Four!

;)

[Archived Post]

Maybe it's just from being an Engineer in ******** but the four REAL differences between Memory Alpha and what I'd consider a true crafting system are:

- Randomness. That means a chance of creating an extra item or getting an extra skill point or creating a higher quality item by mistake. Crafting is not predictable at its best.
******** crafting "discoveries" weren't implemented until the game had been around, what, 4-5 years?

- Blueprints/diagrams/etc. Learning to make something other people can't make. You can do this with drops or currency or even daily quests that award bags with a random blueprint but disparity of recipes is what makes a crafter feel "unique".
You crafted in ********? The dailies for cooking and crafting were 3 years in the coming, for regular crafting it was even longer...

- The ability to either do it anywhere or in more places. Every example of crafting I can think of in another game allows you to either do it everywhere or at a variety of hubs. This might be aboard your ship or at a starbase or a designated hub in each sector block but going one place to do it just feels wrong.
valid point. I can see some limited crafting... or perhaps pre-combining onboard certainly.

- The ability to make things other than weapons. Maybe it's new and better consumables. Maybe it's shuttlecraft type pets or android/hologram BOs. Maybe it's moon boots that let you jump around like you can on the Hobus mission or gas grenades that confuse your enemies into attacking eachother or surgical kits to change your race the way we saw them do it on TNG/DS9/Voyager. Maybe it's an item you can consume to reset the cooldown of transwarp. But crafting generally has quality of life/novelty features beyond gear.
Unm since you started with the ******** idea, lets look at that... you werent an engineer in wow were you?
was almost what, 3-4 years before novelty crafting happened?

This is something I've wondered before. Exactly who thought Memory Alpha, as it existed at launch, would be fun?

I would guess its the guy how saw that 'crafting' was on the list of deliverables as part of the contract with atari. Im certain memory alpha v1 was nothing more than a "checkbox" on the launch list and that what we have now is ready to evolve into something we are willing to call "crafting".

Oh I'm well aware. I played a ton of Horizons and that game was all crafting... and not much else. It is why we needed to fix what was added in for launch - so that we can spend the time to make it into something that resembles what most of us crafting gurus want.

hey, I think I just said that.

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******** crafting "discoveries" weren't implemented until the game had been around, what, 4-5 years?

You crafted in ********? The dailies for cooking and crafting were 3 years in the coming, for regular crafting it was even longer...



I'm sorry, I must have missed the memo where STO is going to be sent back in time to compete with MMOs as they were five years ago and not as they are today. If Toyota puts out a new line of automobile I don't compare it to the Ford Model T, I compare it to the other cars that are being sold today for around the same price. Similarly, it's irrelevant to discuss how STO stacks up against WoW from five years ago because Wow from five years ago is not what is on the market right now.

But since you want to play that game, then why isn't STO's crafting system as robust as Star Wars Galaxies crafting system was 3 months after release? Oh right, because it's got nothing to do with how long a game has been out and everything to do with how much effort was put into designing it in the first place. The people making SWG really wanted awesome crafting, so they made sure it existed. The people making STO really wanted a check list of features, regardless of whether that checklist was honest or made any sense.

I think the point basically is that STO's crafting system isn't even a crafting system, so there was no need to rush to include it just to have a crafting system.

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But since you want to play that game, then why isn't STO's crafting system as robust as Star Wars Galaxies crafting system was 3 months after release?

Oooh! I can answer this!

1- Because no one in star trek wants to be a moisture farmer.
2- Because unlike SWG, STO does not have broken mission terminals. Did not launch classes that were broken and unplayable (Commandos could not gain XP ... at all ... in half their tree, and what was that class that made droids?)
3- Because unlike SWG, STO has space combat at launch!

That's just off the top of my head.

Star Wars Galaxies is a very very poor example of a game that was polished and playable at this point in its lifecycle.

Very poor.

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Oooh! I can answer this!

1- Because no one in star trek wants to be a moisture farmer.
2- Because unlike SWG, STO does not have broken mission terminals. Did not launch classes that were broken and unplayable (Commandos could not gain XP ... at all ... in half their tree, and what was that class that made droids?)
3- Because unlike SWG, STO has space combat at launch!

That's just off the top of my head.

Star Wars Galaxies is a very very poor example of a game that was polished and playable at this point in its lifecycle.

Very poor.

I'm not talking about the game. I'm talking about the crafting system. SWG had a crafting system that pretty much destroys anything else that's been implemented in any other MMO to date. Whatever the other problems with SWG were (and trust me, I played it, and I know that they were many) the lack of true crafting was definitely not one of those problems.

But go ahead and ignore the point as you desire to do, because "how long it's been out" is a red herring. If STO is still going three years from now, it still won't have crafting on par with what SWG had, because crafting is just not a prioroty for STO the way it was for SWG.

I don't have a problem with a lack of crafting, but I have a problem with calling something crafting when it's not, or making terrible excuses for why it's not. STO "crafting" sucks because very little thought or attention was paid to it. The end.

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I'm not talking about the game. I'm talking about the crafting system. SWG had a crafting system that pretty much destroys anything else that's been implemented in any other MMO to date. Whatever the other problems with SWG were (and trust me, I played it, and I know that they were many) the lack of true crafting was definitely not one of those problems.

And that's my point. All that dev time spent creating a crafting system.

And not much of that dev time spent creating a playable MMORPG experience.

Yay for crafting.

How many people came out of Star Wars saying "wow, I know those lightsabers were ok and all, but damn I want to be a moisture farmer like that bad@$$ Uncle Owen dude!"

How many people watch Star Trek and think "Yo! I really want to be the dude that punches the buttons on and gives commands to the replicator! I want to be the guy that has to rebuild engineering AFTER the plasma leaks! Forget that silly "captain" nonsense. I wanna be Mot! The Barber!"

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The fact that Cryptic called it a "crafting" system in the first place WAS disguising its true nature :o

for once i have to agree with you nagus.

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And that's my point. All that dev time spent creating a crafting system.

And not much of that dev time spent creating a playable MMORPG experience.


... and you still haven't tied that into the question that you were supposedly answering way back in the first place. How does "STO has only been out for three months" in any way justify a crafting system that isn't a crafting system? You said "ooo ooo I can answer that question" and you still haven't answered it.

That's okay though because the answer is obvious. There is no connection between the amount of time that STO has been out and the quality of the crafting system. The crafting is bad because it has never been treated as something other than a box to be checked off on some master list of "features,"


Yay for crafting.

How many people came out of Star Wars saying "wow, I know those lightsabers were ok and all, but damn I want to be a moisture farmer like that bad@$$ Uncle Owen dude!"

How many people watch Star Trek and think "Yo! I really want to be the dude that punches the buttons on and gives commands to the replicator! I want to be the guy that has to rebuild engineering AFTER the plasma leaks! Forget that silly "captain" nonsense. I wanna be Mot! The Barber!"

Actually an awful lot of people enjoyed that. Based on subscription numbers and anecdotal evidence, I'd guess more people played SWG for the crafting aspect than play STO for every aspect of this game combined.

When I watch Star Wars, obviously the "coolest" aspect of that is the Jedi and the space combat, but I think crafting (especially a really well done system like SWG) is also really cool. Whether or not it was an appropriate use of the Star Wars IP, it was an awesome "mini game" aspect of SWG (and for many, it was the entire game).

Besides, reducing it to moisture farming is a pretty dishonest way to present that system, since a lot of people didn't play SWG and will take your word for it.

As an aside for those who didn't play SWG or do any crafting, that system was ridiculously in depth, from gathering of materials to the R&D of prototypes, to schematics, to the application of schematics either to make a single copy of something, or to apply it to a "factory" that would mass produce a good while you were on or off line. Imagine if the quality and properties of the phaser you used were the result of a dozen different decisions that had been made throughout the conception and production of that batch of weapons, and that no two weapon batches were ever exactly alike, due to variations in the quality and type of materials used. Imagine scouring the galaxy looking for that one piece of gear that had the perfect balance of stats and properties, or even being able to spend dozens of hours of trial and error trying to painstakingly perfect a recipe that you could then turn around and craft/sell to other people. That's how in depth SWG crafting was.

Which brings me back to my original point. SWG had one of the most advanced crafting system ever, and it had it at launch. Games that have been around 5-10 years have nothing that's even remotely on par in terms of depth and player choice. So obviously, how long a game has been released doesn't have much to do with anything.

Memory Alpha will, I'm sure, eventually incorporate new elements, unique gear, perhaps a better/cooler interface, and so on, but it's never going to be a real crafting system. Why? Because it was never designed to be an actual crafting system.

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Memory alpha uses the "list-row" array gen that pulls items from a database and lists them in a row with specific item data displayed. We then use the secure transaction button to ensure that when you are in the transaction of exchanging several items from your inventory bag for another item (all database transactions) it is a safe transaction and will not result in lost bits if you happen to get disconected or log out at that moment.

it may only be a store, but at least its a secure store?

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... and you still haven't tied that into the question that you were supposedly answering way back in the first place. How does "STO has only been out for three months" in any way justify a crafting system that isn't a crafting system? You said "ooo ooo I can answer that question" and you still haven't answered it.

That's okay though because the answer is obvious. There is no connection between the amount of time that STO has been out and the quality of the crafting system. The crafting is bad because it has never been treated as something other than a box to be checked off on some master list of "features,"



Actually an awful lot of people enjoyed that. Based on subscription numbers and anecdotal evidence, I'd guess more people played SWG for the crafting aspect than play STO for every aspect of this game combined.

When I watch Star Wars, obviously the "coolest" aspect of that is the Jedi and the space combat, but I think crafting (especially a really well done system like SWG) is also really cool. Whether or not it was an appropriate use of the Star Wars IP, it was an awesome "mini game" aspect of SWG (and for many, it was the entire game).

Besides, reducing it to moisture farming is a pretty dishonest way to present that system, since a lot of people didn't play SWG and will take your word for it.

As an aside for those who didn't play SWG or do any crafting, that system was ridiculously in depth, from gathering of materials to the R&D of prototypes, to schematics, to the application of schematics either to make a single copy of something, or to apply it to a "factory" that would mass produce a good while you were on or off line. Imagine if the quality and properties of the phaser you used were the result of a dozen different decisions that had been made throughout the conception and production of that batch of weapons, and that no two weapon batches were ever exactly alike, due to variations in the quality and type of materials used. Imagine scouring the galaxy looking for that one piece of gear that had the perfect balance of stats and properties, or even being able to spend dozens of hours of trial and error trying to painstakingly perfect a recipe that you could then turn around and craft/sell to other people. That's how in depth SWG crafting was.

Which brings me back to my original point. SWG had one of the most advanced crafting system ever, and it had it at launch. Games that have been around 5-10 years have nothing that's even remotely on par in terms of depth and player choice. So obviously, how long a game has been released doesn't have much to do with anything.

Memory Alpha will, I'm sure, eventually incorporate new elements, unique gear, perhaps a better/cooler interface, and so on, but it's never going to be a real crafting system. Why? Because it was never designed to be an actual crafting system.

The way you wrote that makes SWG's crafting system sounds great, but my experience with it was nothing as wonderful as yours. Perhaps it was so in depth that it was counter intuitive? Maybe I am just stupid, (I have a feeling that you will claim that if you bother to read this anyways)? I never did figure out SWG's crafting system to start with. I was able to figure out WoW's without a tech manual. Also I came into SWG late so I never found anyone to explain it to me let alone bribe them to teach it to me either.

Nothing's more frustrating than getting a blue print for something I would want as a combat drop and not have any clue as to what I have to do to make it. How do I gather the materials for it? Oh I need to farm them by finding just the right patches of dirt to put some kinda farming equipment on. Where do I by the farm? Well first you have to buy the unwanted piece of dirt from god knows who then you have to figure out where to buy the equipment that will gather the materials for you... On and on yada yada it was like a graphical representation of a IRS run around. I may have embellished and indulged in some hyperbole but WoW and LotRO's crafting was much easier to figure out.

All I am saying is I hope Memory Alpha's crafting improves but not at the cost of being intuitive. Also I really hope they give me a reason to feel good about investing in the phaser and photon skills and make it so I can craft phasers and photons above Mk IV.

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It's a store. It just takes different kinds of currency.

I'm enjoying it. It gives me something to do with my ECs. Plus, it makes things like radiation samples sell on the exchange, which is fun, I guess.

I like the changes, but it's a far cry from crafting.

It's basically a complicated set of vendors with very particular demands.

Agreed, it is just a store. The main thing that's missing that would turn it from a store to crafting is the element of chance. There should be a set of possible results (green, blue, purple) determined by chance and a way for players to influence that chance. It needs something more interesting than simply picking an item on a list and pressing a button.

There are many ways this could be done, including a lot of the suggestions on these boards. Some games like EQ2 and Vanguard have a system where the player drives the craft process and responds to events to influence the craft result, others like Lotro and SWG have tools and/or items to influence the chance.

Of course the items produced need to be useful and unique. They don't have to be more powerful than items obtained in other ways just to have a unique set of modifiers. With the backend now updated it should be easier to add new items to the system and I think this is the intention but without the element of chance it will still be just a store.

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It's not a step in the right direction, it's the start of the path Cryptic should have set up in the first place. We haven't MOVED anywhere.

We have gained progress tracking of the current system and the ability to buy the white-quality items needed for the process. It might not be the final system you envisage but we have made progress from where we started.

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I feel like the crafting system has been a placeholder until now. Like they knew they wanted a system, but didn't have time to develop one, so they put in what was there and this is the first step to making it work. It's another case of priorities and limited time.

Did crafting get shafted at launch? Yep. Do they recognize it's a problem? Yep? Are they going to fix it? Hope so, the fundamental change with this patch means they are thinking about it. Hopefully there will be more work on it and this is not the last.

It's pretty pointless to complain about what was or wasn't possible at launch or what others did since neither we nor Cryptic have a time machine, we have what we have and we have a path forward. I for one am anxious to hear what the future of crafting holds, not what the past of STO or SWG or Webkins crafting held.

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Maybe it's just from being an Engineer in ******** but the four REAL differences between Memory Alpha and what I'd consider a true crafting system are:

- Randomness. That means a chance of creating an extra item or getting an extra skill point or creating a higher quality item by mistake. Crafting is not predictable at its best.

- Blueprints/diagrams/etc. Learning to make something other people can't make. You can do this with drops or currency or even daily quests that award bags with a random blueprint but disparity of recipes is what makes a crafter feel "unique".

- The ability to either do it anywhere or in more places. Every example of crafting I can think of in another game allows you to either do it everywhere or at a variety of hubs. This might be aboard your ship or at a starbase or a designated hub in each sector block but going one place to do it just feels wrong.

- The ability to make things other than weapons. Maybe it's new and better consumables. Maybe it's shuttlecraft type pets or android/hologram BOs. Maybe it's moon boots that let you jump around like you can on the Hobus mission or gas grenades that confuse your enemies into attacking eachother or surgical kits to change your race the way we saw them do it on TNG/DS9/Voyager. Maybe it's an item you can consume to reset the cooldown of transwarp. But crafting generally has quality of life/novelty features beyond gear.

Address these four things and you're solid. I think what you did in the patch was a necessary first step but it's still more like a store than a crafting system because the exchange is so transparent, so limited in terms of what you can do with it and where you can do it and, ultimately, utilitarian enough that it does feel like a store with anomalies basically being Super Mario Bros. coins instead of giving you the feeling that you made something.

Hope these four points are helpful feedback. I'm sure you've thought of at least some of them, maybe from another angle. But I think you address these four things and you're good.

+1 i support this suggestion and want to see it implemented..


to whoever mentioned that "proper" crafting took 3-4 years in WoW - in my opinion it does not mean that other devs should not learn from that.. it also took centuries to develop from coaches to hybrid cars, this doesnt mean that new car manufacturers should start their product line with horses and steam engines...

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I think Memory Alpha is fine for the Federation. It makes sense. Fed players explore space and send their findings back to Star Fleet, which then develops new technologies. Works for me....for Fed.

After we get Klingons rounded out and get the Romulans in, I would LOVE to see a neutral faction added, one that focused on resource gathering and developing new technologies to sell to anyone and everyone: The Ferengi!

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I think the best crafting system I have seen was in Star Wars Galaxies. Very in depth, alot of resources and different qualities of those resources. You could make a unique weapon that no one else has. Also the crafters name was attached to the weapon forever. If anyone has played SWG you will understand what I mean.

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I think the best crafting system I have seen was in Star Wars Galaxies. Very in depth, alot of resources and different qualities of those resources. You could make a unique weapon that no one else has. Also the crafters name was attached to the weapon forever. If anyone has played SWG you will understand what I mean.

I agree. SWG also HAD the best skill system of any MMO I have ever seen.

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Actually, almost everything in an MMO boils down to a database transaction.

Your ship slots are actually "bags" on your ship puppet account.

Your captain skills are settings on your "captain" account.

The power tray is an array of inventory items pulled from hidden bags that have region rules.

Yet it is Cryptic's job to make these 'database transactions' feel like a game. And it is Cryptic's job to make the memory alpha transactions feel like crafting. It still feels like a "store" or bartering as the OP pointed out.

The changes make it a very nice bartering system now, but it's still not crafting. I think Memory Alpha is a nice feature for STO, but it's not crafting. :rolleyes: We eventually need a genuine crafting system for STO, separate from Memory Alpha.

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I want to be able to craft ships and stations and possibly even set up a starbase for my fleet like they said you could in one of the videos...

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Oh I'm well aware. I played a ton of Horizons and that game was all crafting... and not much else. It is why we needed to fix what was added in for launch - so that we can spend the time to make it into something that resembles what most of us crafting gurus want.

That blows me away...you spent since January fixing the system you launched with, just so you can go back and spend a few months on it again later? Honestly dstahl, why did you guys waste 5 months redesigning nothing more than the interface?! I simply don't get it...

I would LIKE to see me having the ability to customize my weapons beam design, beam color, perhaps the radius of the weapons arc (bigger radius, less dps). THAT is customization, THAT is "crafting".

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Yet it is Cryptic's job to make these 'database transactions' feel like a game. And it is Cryptic's job to make the memory alpha transactions feel like crafting. It still feels like a "store" or bartering as the OP pointed out.

The changes make it a very nice bartering system now, but it's still not crafting. I think Memory Alpha is a nice feature for STO, but it's not crafting. :rolleyes: We eventually need a genuine crafting system for STO, separate from Memory Alpha.

I must agree. While I know this will never be a crafting focused game. I'd like a little more of a game to the 'database transaction.' More than just hitting one button repeatedly without variaton. With the right materials you can max the current system in minutes and still make nothing worthwhile.

Now on the other extreme, we have games like Vanguard. That game did many things...wrong. But in Crafting you felt you really had to actually work to create something. You actually felt a feeling of satisfaction when you crafted something. And specializations mattered. You could actually sell those items because everyone couldn't make everything.

Fallen Earth is another great crafting game, but you really need to design from the ground up for that sort of thing. But There's definately room for improvements at Memory alpha. An actual minigame to the crafting process would be great.

And a change in the actual items made. Put customizable items into the process. Where we can decide exactly what bonuses to put on a given item. Even Champions has this feature. Go borrow it. While you're there, maybe borrow the idea of being able to deconstruct vendor trash items for crafting resources.

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Oh I'm well aware. I played a ton of Horizons and that game was all crafting... and not much else. It is why we needed to fix what was added in for launch - so that we can spend the time to make it into something that resembles what most of us crafting gurus want.

That's very good to hear and I look forward to further improvements to the Memory Alpha system. I'd really like to be able to craft my own "Efficient Impulse Engines" and the like from there.

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That may be true, but its no excuse for making a shallow crafting system. Other games have managed to create crafting systems that actually seem like crafting, so its not some impossible task.

And other successful games have launched without a crafting system at all. Of course it's not an impossible task; but what should have been left out at launch in favor of it?

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And other successful games have launched without a crafting system at all.

But since STO does have a crafting system, games without crafting systems have nothing to do with this discussion.

Of course it's not an impossible task; but what should have been left out at launch in favor of it?

Nothing. You see, its not that MA wasnt "finished" at launch, its that it was poorly designed in the first place. Someone(IDK who mind you) actually thought the way MA worked at launch would be fun, and they were sadly mistaken.

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but what should have been left out at launch in favor of it?

nothing.. i would have preferred the game launching retail in spring 2011 so the game would be more complete.. you like to say, that a MMO is never finished.. but this words indicate, that even you feel that there was not enough time to create a _whole_ game, and it was released _uncomplete_

never mind.. game is there, and the devs acknowledge that MA is not what its supposed to be: a crafting system for players to enjoy, and to enrich the STO experience.. thats a great thing, and im looking forward to what it will become..

i said at some other place, that the current situation of MA is like patching the titanic with life vests.. great improvement, but she's still sinking.. but the fact alone, that the devs see the need for life vests, and work on saving everyone, is great, and i really appreciate it.. others might have sticked to the "our ship is unsinkable" approach and ignore the reality..

there are some great suggestions in the community about how a STO crafting system could be shaped to really enrich the game, and i am sure the devs will tap into that, as much as they can...

MA is quite symptomatic for the whole game - great, yet still widely untapped potential - i see it developing from a store to crafting AND researching, the source of side quests and focus of science-oriented characters and even fleets, similar to crafter guilds in other games..

tl;dr: MA is a sinking ship patched up with lifevests. which is good, because handing out lifevests means the crew knows something is wrong. have faith.

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nothing.. i would have preferred the game launching retail in spring 2011 so the game would be more complete.

I would have preferred this thread be held off and not posted until winter of 2027.

;)

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Actually, almost everything in an MMO boils down to a database transaction.

Your ship slots are actually "bags" on your ship puppet account.

Your captain skills are settings on your "captain" account.

The power tray is an array of inventory items pulled from hidden bags that have region rules.

Memory alpha uses the "list-row" array gen that pulls items from a database and lists them in a row with specific item data displayed. We then use the secure transaction button to ensure that when you are in the transaction of exchanging several items from your inventory bag for another item (all database transactions) it is a safe transaction and will not result in lost bits if you happen to get disconected or log out at that moment.

Hi DStahl. What you're saying is true, but what I'd like to explain is that we MMO players expect a certain style to our crafting. This is because crafting, in spirit, is a matter of character development. It's not, at its heart, about the items you get at all. We can and do already get good items via other means (the medals and marks). You're hearing a lot of calls of "This is just another vendor system!" because the character development aspect is just not presently there.

Please see my thread here for some ideas as to how to turn the system you're currently developing into what I believe crafter players want. It's distilled from my experiences at other MMO's and calls on some ideas that will really get people into it. Please see link below:

http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=157380

Thanks!

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And other successful games have launched without a crafting system at all. Of course it's not an impossible task; but what should have been left out at launch in favor of it?

They should have left Memory Alpha out of the game. If that meant saying "We have no crafting" then so be it.

If and when they had a crafting system that worked, then they could have introduced that as a major feature.

Too many MMOs fall into the trap of trying to cover a broad range of features, as if what matters is the length of the feature list.

What matters is whether you want to keep playing the game. Does Memory Alpha make any one want to play the game? Is any one sitting at work saying 'I can't wait until I get home so I can spend all night trading in my data" ? Is there any one who thinks "I just cannot get THIS level of satisfaction from any other game, because it just doesn't have that Star Trek Online crafting" ?

Warhammer online did something similar. They included a really incomplete crafting system with the promise that they'll add to it and fix it later on. Why? Because apparently it's just that important to be able to say that your game has crafting, even if that means you have to spend time building a system that no one really likes.

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They should have left Memory Alpha out of the game. If that meant saying "We have no crafting" then so be it.


Why? If not having it and not affecting you has the same end result, what difference does that make?

Least with them having it, they can build onto it, and perhaps improve it more.

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Why? If not having it and not affecting you has the same end result, what difference does that make?

Least with them having it, they can build onto it, and perhaps improve it more.

1) Time was spent implemented MA that could have been spent on other features like exploration or ground combat. Better to have fewer things that are of higher quality than to have many things which all fail to impress.

2) Now that MA is in place, inertia exists that's going to make it hard to ever really do anything that's much different from what exists. So instead of a dynamic, really interesting crafting system being possible some day, what we can instead look forward to are incremental improvements on a flawed system. The items might get better, the interface might get better, it might become more customizable or visually appealing, but in the end whatever they do has to be backwards compatible with what they already have, because a lot of people have already invested their time and effort into the current system and won't want to see it blown up completely (talking about players mostly, but to a lesser extent devs also).

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1) Time was spent implemented MA that could have been spent on other features like exploration or ground combat. Better to have fewer things that are of higher quality than to have many things which all fail to impress.

2) Now that MA is in place, inertia exists that's going to make it hard to ever really do anything that's much different from what exists. So instead of a dynamic, really interesting crafting system being possible some day, what we can instead look forward to are incremental improvements on a flawed system. The items might get better, the interface might get better, it might become more customizable or visually appealing, but in the end whatever they do has to be backwards compatible with what they already have, because a lot of people have already invested their time and effort into the current system and won't want to see it blown up completely (talking about players mostly, but to a lesser extent devs also).

Its aleady been stated that regardless of how its implemented, its a database transaction.

Playing EQ2, had the best type of crafting EVER imo. WoW's crafting was a joke compared to EQ2 and I was very much disappointed in that regard. Since I played WoW more than any other MMO, my expectations were not that high to begin with(crafting wise). Dont get me wrong, its better than STO, but only cause the amount of time and improvements they made.

I honestly think some people are "Blowing" this out of proportion. Everything begins with a first step. We have that first step and it will only get better from here on.

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Its aleady been stated that regardless of how its implemented, its a database transaction.

.

Which is a totally meaningless statement. it's like saying "regardless of whether Star Trek is a space MMO or a Rhythm/Dancing game, it's all just bytes in memory." Under the surface every thing is just a data object in memory and some register operations on the processor, but as players we don't see that.

We see the interface, we see the game systems, we see the graphical portrayal of imaginary things. MA has a certain level of progression built into it. Once people have any sort of progression, they don't want to lose it or have it completely devalued. look at the reaction that a lot of people had when they found out that they had to "re grind" to get back some MA recipes that they had learned before, but lost because of the revamp. That's nothing compared to how mad people would be if they made truly radical changes (even if they were changes that made the game as a whole better).

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Once people have any sort of progression, they don't want to lose it or have it completely devalued. look at the reaction that a lot of people had when they found out that they had to "re grind" to get back some MA recipes that they had learned before, but lost because of the revamp. That's nothing compared to how mad people would be if they made truly radical changes (even if they were changes that made the game as a whole better).

Which include me having progression lowered on one of my toons, but I played soo much anyways, I got most of it back last night. I should hopefully be comepletely upto par tonight.

I am interested in facts, not "would be if".

This is what it is, it can and will get better.

We are in opinion territory now, and I suppose you and I can only "Agree to disagree". ;)

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We see the interface, we see the game systems, we see the graphical portrayal of imaginary things. MA has a certain level of progression built into it. Once people have any sort of progression, they don't want to lose it or have it completely devalued. look at the reaction that a lot of people had when they found out that they had to "re grind" to get back some MA recipes that they had learned before, but lost because of the revamp. That's nothing compared to how mad people would be if they made truly radical changes (even if they were changes that made the game as a whole better).

I'm definitely upset by the amount of progress I and others have lost. However, I do think the current crafting system is pretty much as lame as the old crafting system, minus a few fixes to annoying problems. I get that this is supposed to be the foundation, but it doesn't seem like many people are happy with the foundation - so why continue to build off of it? I feel like the developers get an idea in their heads, ask for feedback, but are only willing to make tweaks to their ideas. Maybe they should ask for feedback sooner before they invest so much development time into an idea people may or may not appreciate.

I would have preferred to have seen a completely new type of crafting system that draws upon many of the suggestions and ideas put forward by the community over the past few months. Old efforts and progress could have been preserved by leaving the old barter-style crafting system intact. All crafting systems can be defined as "bartering", but the original Memory Alpha setup was bartering in the truest sense of the world. You trade data and an item to an NPC for a different item.

And that's fine, especially in a game where society is supposed to have evolved away from money. So perhaps that should have been left intact - because then nobody could complain about lost progress. If the system remained intact you have lost nothing for your efforts up to this point, nor have you gained anything new.

Then, separately, Cryptic develops a real crafting system which is completely unrelated to the old bartering setup in Memory Alpha. Then everyone is reasonably expected to start from scratch under the new crafting system while the NPC barter exchange remains intact for the people who have invested in it. Is that really any worse than the existence of vendor who offers specific items for credits?

I would have preferred that to the current solution, at any rate.

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You only get to unlock one specialty.
This is why Romain had you speak to each person before selecting your tier 2 specialty.
The other grayed-out tabs were specialties you didn't choose.

The more you know! ==★

I've been able to do research on all 3 types. I've maxed out Physical and am working on Energy and Tatical now. You can max out all 3 varieties, according to the mission text.

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I get that this is supposed to be the foundation, but it doesn't seem like many people are happy with the foundation - so why continue to build off of it?

This is what I have a problem with. Dont assume how "many" people, because the forums:

A. Have a small amount of the total population that play.

B. The same vocal people(like you) are more outspoken and make threads much bigger with less input from others effecting the size of the thread.

This isnt a personal attack on you, but without something from cryptic in the form of polls is pure speculation. I am sorry you dont like the current system, I think it could be better myself, but starting over from scratch is not something they are going to do. I know where your coming from on playing catchup on the new system, believe me I spend almost 2 hours last night catching up also.

Some people like the new system, and others dont. I am happy with the improvements compared to, but not happy about the catchup part. I just grin and bare it, not the first time something I didnt agree wtih happen to me.

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This is what I have a problem with. Dont assume how "many" people, because the forums:

Who said anything about the forums? Cryptic did a player survey (link was on launchpad) and here were the results:

http://www.startrekonline.com/survey_one_results

You'll notice how much everyone just loved(sarcasm) the crafting system :o

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Maybe it's just from being an Engineer in ******** but the four REAL differences between Memory Alpha and what I'd consider a true crafting system are:

- Randomness. That means a chance of creating an extra item or getting an extra skill point or creating a higher quality item by mistake. Crafting is not predictable at its best.

- Blueprints/diagrams/etc. Learning to make something other people can't make. You can do this with drops or currency or even daily quests that award bags with a random blueprint but disparity of recipes is what makes a crafter feel "unique".

- The ability to either do it anywhere or in more places. Every example of crafting I can think of in another game allows you to either do it everywhere or at a variety of hubs. This might be aboard your ship or at a starbase or a designated hub in each sector block but going one place to do it just feels wrong.

- The ability to make things other than weapons. Maybe it's new and better consumables. Maybe it's shuttlecraft type pets or android/hologram BOs. Maybe it's moon boots that let you jump around like you can on the Hobus mission or gas grenades that confuse your enemies into attacking eachother or surgical kits to change your race the way we saw them do it on TNG/DS9/Voyager. Maybe it's an item you can consume to reset the cooldown of transwarp. But crafting generally has quality of life/novelty features beyond gear.

Address these four things and you're solid. I think what you did in the patch was a necessary first step but it's still more like a store than a crafting system because the exchange is so transparent, so limited in terms of what you can do with it and where you can do it and, ultimately, utilitarian enough that it does feel like a store with anomalies basically being Super Mario Bros. coins instead of giving you the feeling that you made something.

Hope these four points are helpful feedback. I'm sure you've thought of at least some of them, maybe from another angle. But I think you address these four things and you're good.

QUICKLY. SOMEONE HIRE THIS MAN.

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Who said anything about the forums? Cryptic did a player survey (link was on launchpad) and here were the results:

http://www.startrekonline.com/survey_one_results

You'll notice how much everyone just loved(sarcasm) the crafting system :o

There were a number of people for whom MA was their most liked feature! That number being 0%

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QUICKLY. SOMEONE HIRE THIS MAN.

Not knocking his post, but re-read his first sentence. These arent his ideas :p

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Oh I'm well aware. I played a ton of Horizons and that game was all crafting... and not much else. It is why we needed to fix what was added in for launch - so that we can spend the time to make it into something that resembles what most of us crafting gurus want.

Isn't there a possibility that STO could be more like Fallen Earth as in a scavenging/crafting model? I mean, isn't part of the point of exploration just finding unknown materials, trying to break them down, then putting in a possibility to craft a new item based on the ships systems?

From beta I liked how the directional scan changed, but like everything in STO it needs alot more to be remotely playable and challenging. This is an ideal area to introduce specialization in classes for certain types of "scavenged" things and then for the creation process.

Seems like that is feasible. And yes, MA is only a store.

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I maxxed out all the areas about 15 minutes after it went live to holodeck, was pretty easy since I had a ton of anomalous data saved up. this is just the first step in fixing Mem Alpha though, so calm down.

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I maxxed out all the areas about 15 minutes after it went live to holodeck, was pretty easy since I had a ton of anomalous data saved up. this is just the first step in fixing Mem Alpha though, so calm down.

Don't think people are getting out of kilter here.

What does "maxed out" mean though? Just giving that anomalous data over and over? I guess I'm kinda like the OP in that I don't understand the dynamic between calling it "crafting" versus "buying" that's all.

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Has anyone yet mentioned a crafting system for the Klingons?

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Not knocking his post, but re-read his first sentence. These arent his ideas :p

Well, actually, none of these things are specific to ********. Some of them are visible in the crafting systems Cryptic already designed for other games.

I cite my background as a ******** Engineer profession because WC Engineering is the example of a fairly simple, fairly transparent crafting system that manages to be fun without being SWG-level depth. It's not the most utilitarian crafting system in the world in terms of usefulness but it is pretty outrageously fun and targeted at simulating that engineer who uses gadgets on the fly. It's the type of system that tends to balance well for PvE... and less for PvP but the main obstacles are if not everyone has it or if some people use it more effectively.

The four points I raised don't actually all apply perfectly to WoW but are more general points that come from observation, primarily with WoW. I've leveled most of the professions there -- and I think gathering professions suck anyway but it makes sense for the Federation. They should consider giving each faction its own profession apart from Memory Alpha; I vote giving Klingons an enchanting/disenchanting/sharding system; I know I'd play that anyway. In general and in terms of content development, I think it would make everything easier to move past all these war plotlines and have all factions share missions and team-up openly, total cross-faction PvE teaming... while having the things that differentiate the factions be that each has:

- A unique crafting system.
- A unique first contact/diplomacy system.
- A unique 1-10 leveling experience... and I might campaign to shuffle around some missions to get more eye popper missions into those first 10 levels, replacing the 10-50 content with more neutral eye poppers.
- They fight separately in PvP "border skirmishes".
- Possibility for each faction to get a unique "prestige class" down the road.

Other than that, I kinda think everybody would be better off being treated as one big mega-faction. It makes content development easier. It's fairly true to Star Trek as well once you get outside the core parts of Federation/Klingon space. Anything not on the other side of a neutral zone or surrounding a capital planet tends to be more... neutral anyway.

I know I coded some MUD/MUSH crafting systems waaaaaaay back in the day too but that was never my prime focus. My big focus was generally more on plot/storyline/social tools. Stuff like... How interactive can I make this security system? How organic can I make the computer's responses be?

One thing I always loved was making "voice activated" computers and trying to set them up to be versatile enough that people could use them simply by roleplaying in the area without knowing the specific commands. So if anyone emoted saying, "Computer, show me the exterior of the house" in any logical variation of that sentence, the game objects would recognize the commands without requiring them to be stated in a particular syntax. I also had a system that would record scenes, that remained persistent when someone logged out and a person could "audibly" request logs in a variety of formats.

So I could type an emote which reads:

Leviathan99 scowls and dunks his donut into his coffee with a soft plunk, eying you suspiciously. "I don't believe you." He turns to the screen behind him. "Computer, get me a video log of last night. Say... ten o'clock PM."

And the "computer" would respond with:

"Voice access authentication recognized. Replaying 10:00PM PST."

And then it would play back the logs, tinted blue or something or with a header that reads:

The recorded video playback continues. <insert line of recorded video>

I did generally get sophisticated enough with these things that people who had no clue what the access commands for the computer were could simply emote interacting with it and it would work as intended.

But I doubt that kind of "crafting" would ever happen in an MMO except at the development level.

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Has anyone yet mentioned a crafting system for the Klingons?

Funny you should say that considering that I just did. :-)

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Has anyone yet mentioned a crafting system for the Klingons?

Yes. And they are looking at making it happen. Obviously it didn't happen with this patch. And isn't on schedule for the next one either.

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This is what I have a problem with. Dont assume how "many" people, because the forums:

A. Have a small amount of the total population that play.

B. The same vocal people(like you) are more outspoken and make threads much bigger with less input from others effecting the size of the thread.

This isnt a personal attack on you, but without something from cryptic in the form of polls is pure speculation. I am sorry you dont like the current system, I think it could be better myself, but starting over from scratch is not something they are going to do. I know where your coming from on playing catchup on the new system, believe me I spend almost 2 hours last night catching up also.

Some people like the new system, and others dont. I am happy with the improvements compared to, but not happy about the catchup part. I just grin and bare it, not the first time something I didnt agree wtih happen to me.

It all comes down to how you perceive the word. When I say "many" people, I mean just that: many people. I don' t mean "most people", or "the majority of the people", or even "a minority of the people". I just mean "many" people. If 10 different people are complaining about something in a thread, I'm fine saying "many people are complaining" because it's more accurate than saying "a couple" (which generally means two) or "a handful" (which generally means five). However, they can easily mean other things. So I wouldn't waste too much energy stressing over the term "many". I make an effort to avoid using words like "most" for the same reasons as you.

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Yes. And they are looking at making it happen. Obviously it didn't happen with this patch. And isn't on schedule for the next one either.

Which is good news for Klingon players. Because originally the intention was to not have any sort of crafting system. Fortunately, the proper feedback has brought about a change and that "no" has turned into a "yes". It's nice the way that works out sometimes. I know some people like to think that everything is set in stone, but obviously that's not always the case (fortunately for Klingon players, in this case!). :)

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Which is good news for Klingon players. Because originally the intention was to not have any sort of crafting system. Fortunately, the proper feedback has brought about a change and that "no" has turned into a "yes". It's nice the way that works out sometimes. I know some people like to think that everything is set in stone, but obviously that's not always the case (fortunately for Klingon players, in this case!). :)

Unfortunately the no you want to be a yes isn't going to budge.

And you've been told outright multiple times. BY DEVS!

You see, the biggest obstacle you face is ... they already have plans to move forward with their memory alpha revamp.

They're not going to deconstruct it ... just for you.

It's hard for you to accept. I get that. But sometimes the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the combadge.

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Who said anything about the forums? Cryptic did a player survey (link was on launchpad) and here were the results:

http://www.startrekonline.com/survey_one_results

You'll notice how much everyone just loved(sarcasm) the crafting system :o

Just curious was that post patch or pre patch? I get so confused. :rolleyes:

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I personally love the changes. I think it is a step in the right direction. But just that: a step. Obviously Memory Alpha will continue to get updates and changes, this is the beginning of them. And quite frankly, it was a very welcomed and wonderful change considering the previous incarnation. I look forward to updates to unique items made only through crafting or other such things as random "high qualities" that could happen, or who knows what else.

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do you want to craft realy? i still shutter from swg crafting gather metals make marco craft 100 of this most item worthless, and on and on it went. or you could craft like eve get metals waite days get a bship ect ect. this dose make you gather info but it right thier when your doing missions ect.

i have played every game thier is online form the top names to ones you never heard of. all take alot of time either to do missions to get skills to craft all boring and very time consuming a waste of time. even ones that could give you a chance for a special or even epic item you go though all of the bull to find that fancy sword you put 30 hours in to be abel to build is a drop from a boss that takes you 30min of farming to get.

the op dose not want diffrent crafting system, like all the other threads he wants to cause anger and strife. he could care less about the crafting system. its just another way to cause a ruckus i do not see why people feed into it dose it not get old the op names will go on my list and i will not post in a thread by him again. it my way to show what i think

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It's hard for you to accept. I get that. But sometimes the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the combadge.

Quite the contrary, it's not hard to accept at all. But, I guess it's a good thing that many players are also upset about the turn of events, and not just me. :)

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Has anyone yet mentioned a crafting system for the Klingons?

Oh, but the Klingon faction has a crafting system! Yes, they do! Here it is...

In Klingon crafting, you wander around sector space in search of raw materials (skill points). You get recipes from your KDF Contacts (episodes/missions) that you combine with your raw materials (skill points earned from combat) to create new items (ranks and abilities). ;) hehehe

Yeah, crafting in STO doesn't really exist, and our memory alpha barter system (even though it's a polished bartering system) is not even available to Klingons.

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I have yet to give MA a good look but I hope my borderline obsessive farming of anomalies is not time totally wasted:) Coming from SWG I would say Cryptic could learn a lot from the original game -- possibly the ultimate crafting system (Pre-NGE at least) :eek:

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the op dose not want diffrent crafting system, like all the other threads he wants to cause anger and strife. he could care less about the crafting system. its just another way to cause a ruckus i do not see why people feed into it dose it not get old the op names will go on my list and i will not post in a thread by him again. it my way to show what i think

You have anger issues that affect your punctution. Please visit the writing center.

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the op dose not want diffrent crafting system, like all the other threads he wants to cause anger and strife. he could care less about the crafting system. its just another way to cause a ruckus i do not see why people feed into it dose it not get old the op names will go on my list and i will not post in a thread by him again. it my way to show what i think

Like what you're attempting to do right now? :rolleyes: Criticize the issues, not the people, please.

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Is this a joke? Did you seriously spend over 100 days for this?!! There are no new "Recipes" just a new point system applied to the tired old crap that everyone past RA3 doesn't need or want!

What kind of craptastic up date is this? :mad::mad::mad:

STO is turning into one big sewer treatment plant, crap in - recycle it - crap out.

I have to agree with this,i thought they were actually going to change Memory alfa from Upgrading stuff to actually MAKING stuff,as it is now...it is NOT CRAFTING it just a overpolished turd called upgrading,you buy a mark one torpedo launcher and turn it into a green torpedo launcher...lol,thats not even upgrading is just a coat of green...:D