Why not Commodore?

[Archived Post]

I know that the way that the US Navy has it set up currently is to have the 2 halves of the Rear Admiral rank. However, previously, and can still be the case in times of war, the one star rank has been refered to as Commodore. In TOS, this rank has been called 2 things, Commodore and Fleet Captain.

I think it would make it a little less of a mouth full if RALH/RAUH was changed to Commodore in game and would still be in keeping with canon. Anyone feel the same way?

[Archived Post]

When you look at ST material post STO the rank of Commodore vanishes and is replaced by the two shelf Admiral system.

Personally I agree that Commodore would be nicer than RA Lower Half but the source material says otherwise and in an effort to try and stick close to the source material Cryptic has chosen this.

[Archived Post]

The topic rears it's head again about the Admiral rank. Anyone has a count of what number thread this is about Commodore? I have it as "too many and stopped counting".

[Archived Post]

I've been complaining about the "Rear Admiral" title versus Commodore since launch. The Star Trek alti-verse has used the Commodore (or, rarely, Fleet Captain) title throughout the entirety of its history. I find it unfathomable that Cryptic insists on denying players the Commodore rank, especially after adding the RA, "Upper Half" rank (talk about an ungainly, undignified mouthful).

Cryptic, please rename the Rear Admiral, Lower Half rank to the traditional Star Trek rank of Commodore and make the "Upper Half" the only RA rank in STO. The Trek alti-verse and STO are not the USN, NATO, or any other contemporary military organization and, therefore, fleet ranks should not be slaved to some "real world" equivalency.

At the VERY LEAST, make Commodore an optional costume Title for players reaching RA, LH. This would be a simple solution and would satisfy most players.

[Archived Post]

The US navy doesn't use Commodore in an official capacity does it? I'm fairly certain that Rear Admiral (lower) is used.

[Archived Post]

At the VERY LEAST, make Commodore an optional costume Title for players reaching RA, LH. This would be a simple solution and would satisfy most players.

Commodore ****le would make little kittens smile.

[Archived Post]

I've been complaining about the "Rear Admiral" title versus Commodore since launch. The Star Trek alti-verse has used the Commodore (or, rarely, Fleet Captain) title throughout the entirety of its history. I find it unfathomable that Cryptic insists on denying players the Commodore rank, especially after adding the RA, "Upper Half" rank (talk about an ungainly, undignified mouthful).

Cryptic, please rename the Rear Admiral, Lower Half rank to the traditional Star Trek rank of Commodore and make the "Upper Half" the only RA rank in STO. The Trek alti-verse and STO are not the USN, NATO, or any other contemporary military organization and, therefore, fleet ranks should not be slaved to some "real world" equivalency.

At the VERY LEAST, make Commodore an optional costume Title for players reaching RA, LH. This would be a simple solution and would satisfy most players.

See I dont get it, everyone is asking Crytpic to be Star Trek Canon, then they come out with something like this.

Commodore (later replaced by rear admiral-lower half) is a naval rank, the equivalent of which is used by the service organizations of many civilizations. As a traditional grade, commodore is the most junior flag officer rank of a naval organization, under an admiral rank (usually under rear admiral) but senior to a captain. Commodores command groups of ships, as opposed to captains commanding single ships or units. In comparison to other ranking systems, this rank is equivalent to the military brigadier or brigadier general.

The rank of commodore was used by Starfleet until at least the 2270s.

Source: http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Commodore

Now if it was basically phased out around that point, why would it still be around in 2408?

[Archived Post]

The topic rears it's head again about the Admiral rank. Anyone has a count of what number thread this is about Commodore? I have it as "too many and stopped counting".

ditto.......

[Archived Post]

Commodore is generally a duty-specific title. You're commanding multiple ships but not at the same level of responsibility as an Admiral (much like a Fleet Captain).

You're not guaranteed promotion to Commodore as it is a lateral promotion based on the billet you serve in - not a vertical promotion.

It was part of the vertical promotion chain but was displaced by the rank of Rear Admiral Lower Half.

[Archived Post]

See I dont get it, everyone is asking Crytpic to be Star Trek Canon, then they come out with something like this.



Source: http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Commodore

Now if it was basically phased out around that point, why would it still be around in 2408?

Who's to say they (Starfleet Command) didn't reactivate the title in this time of war. After all, Commodore is usally a war time rank, and allows RA's to command starships they normally wouldn't be allowed too!

I would love it as an alternate to RA LH, and should be an option to use, perhaps as a "rank branching" once you hit RA? Either go Fleet Captain > Commodore > FA or RA LH > RA UH > FA.

At the very least: Allow us to use "Commodore" as a title! If we can have Envoy and Ambassador, why not Commodore?

[Archived Post]

At the VERY LEAST, make Commodore an optional costume Title for players reaching RA, LH. This would be a simple solution and would satisfy most players.

I have always supported this idea.

Having the vanity titles "Commodore" and "Fleet Captain" would go a long ways towards putting this topic to rest, once and for all, and make the TOS fans that play STO, very very happy.

[Archived Post]

Source: http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Commodore

Now if it was basically phased out around that point, why would it still be around in 2408?

Except we don't really know if it was phased out. We just never saw it after TMP.

As I understand it (and I'm willing to be corrected on this), Commodore is/was a naval rank used during wartime mainly, as a field promotion (as you couldn't grant a promotion to Admiral in the field). But it certainly wasn't used in TOS that way, since we met Starbase commanders that were Commodores.

I'm a TOS guy, so I'd certainly like to see it, but it's not a real big deal to me.

I think a bigger issue is the running-out-of-ranks one...especially as RALH and RAUH are only 5 levels apiece. What will happen the next time the level cap is raised? Fleet Admirals? And then what? Seems to me if you'd've made Commodore 41-50, RALH 51-60, RAUH 61-70, and VA 71-80, you'd have some more breathing room. But then maybe that just delays the problem. I've seen some brilliant writeups on the forums here about ideas for separating rank from level, which would probably be the better long-term strategy.

[Archived Post]

See I dont get it, everyone is asking Crytpic to be Star Trek Canon, then they come out with something like this.



Source: http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Commodore

Now if it was basically phased out around that point, why would it still be around in 2408?
"...everybody..." is NOT asking Cryptic to be "canon". Don't quote from my message to imply an inconsistency on MY part. Generalizations are a tool of the ignorant. Strive to be better.

With over forty years of trek "canon", into which era should STO be locked? the simple fact is that Trek used the Commodore rank for its entire history until the 2350's. At that point the RA LH/UH was implemented. Subsequently, it seems, in the 2360's the LH/UH was replaced by a unified RA rank.

What's more, STO is set in the 2400's. What is so inconceivable about the idea that the ranking structure wasn't altered again in the decades between the series and the game era?

Instead of being condescending, perhaps you should be more considerate of other perspectives. This thread is asking Cryptic to implement the Commodore rank. Unless you have something to add to that discussion, or a specific reason for not wanting it implemented, why are you even posting to the thread?

I certainly hope that Cryptic will either convert the RA, LH rank to the Commodore rank, or, alternatively, add a selectable "costume" title of Commodore, for those wanting that accolade. The latter would probably be the easiest way to implement an option which , as has been noted by the "haters", many players have requested.

Have a nice day!



http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Starfleet_ranks

[Archived Post]

Except we don't really know if it was phased out. We just never saw it after TMP.

As I understand it (and I'm willing to be corrected on this), Commodore is/was a naval rank used during wartime mainly, as a field promotion (as you couldn't grant a promotion to Admiral in the field). But it certainly wasn't used in TOS that way, since we met Starbase commanders that were Commodores.

I'm a TOS guy, so I'd certainly like to see it, but it's not a real big deal to me.

I think a bigger issue is the running-out-of-ranks one...especially as RALH and RAUH are only 5 levels apiece. What will happen the next time the level cap is raised? Fleet Admirals? And then what? Seems to me if you'd've made Commodore 41-50, RALH 51-60, RAUH 61-70, and VA 71-80, you'd have some more breathing room. But then maybe that just delays the problem. I've seen some brilliant writeups on the forums here about ideas for separating rank from level, which would probably be the better long-term strategy.

The bigger underlying problem is the unrealistic approach that STO takes in terms of Admirals.

40 years of Star Trek showed us that if you want to be in on the action, you are a Captain. Admirals are administrators, big picture strategists. Yet, in STO, everyone is a frickin Admiral.

Whatever happened to Kirk's sentiment?

"Don't let them promote you. Don't let them transfer you. Don't let them do anything that takes you off the bridge of that ship because while you're there, you can make a difference."

During all the series, we saw Admirals in a traditional role, serving at Starbases and Starfleet Command, touring around in their flagships, and often times, seen as the menace or advesary of the frontline commander or starship captain. The captains were the ones to be envied and revered.

Yet in STO, Captain was nothing but a brief milestone on your way to a rank which would normally have you at a desk in Starfleet Headquarters or commanding cadets at the Academy.

And in STO, Vice Admirals and Rear Admirals are still conducting away missions in the thick of the fight, still fighting frontline engagements in ships of the line? This doesn't make a lick of sense. Heck, the rules governing a CAPTAIN leaving a starship for away missions were strict enough. I hate to think what the rules were about a VICE ADMIRAL fighting in the trenches!

In my opinion, STO should have level capped at Captain, and the time between ranks should have been significantly increased. Admiralty should have been reserved for the future incase STO ever offered a system like "Battleground:Europe" where players form missions and issue orders (typical duties of an Admiral, think big picture) or it should have been a vanity title for those who have done all there is to do, achieved the most and the hardest to achieve accolades.

But alas, it would seem we are stuck with this ridiculous system now.

[Archived Post]

The topic rears it's head again about the Admiral rank. Anyone has a count of what number thread this is about Commodore? I have it as "too many and stopped counting".


its number 57957889221

[Archived Post]

...In my opinion, STO should have level capped at Captain...

THIS!!

With one addition - players should be capped at CAPTAIN, and Fleet Leaders should get the title of ADMIRAL (because they're actually commanding multiple vessels by leading their Fleet).

[Archived Post]

Having either Commodore or Rear Admiral Lower Half as the rank...not an issue with me. What DOES bother me is that they lumped two separate ranks into one 10-level range (5 levels apiece) when each (RALH & RAUH) should have gotten the same treatment as the other ranks. While it does make a die-hard Trekkie like myself convulse to see so many admirals running around period (let alone captaining starships), there HAVE been a few instances where one will lead a ship or fleet into action on the front lines.

Personally, I think Cryptic should just do away with the rank structure and just do like other MMOs and treat everyone as a number (level-wise, that is). That could go a long way to settling some of these debates that keep popping up.

EDIT: I also agree that the rank structure should have been capped at Captain...or at the most Rear Admiral.

[Archived Post]

THIS!!

With one addition - players should be capped at CAPTAIN, and Fleet Leaders should get the title of ADMIRAL (because they're actually commanding multiple vessels by leading their Fleet).

Yup.
I've been saying that since beta. It should have been capped at Commander at release, with Captain coming in an expansion. The only time Admiral should have even been a possible rank for players is if they added some alternate gameplay mechanic that introduced actual Admiral-ish duties.

But then... I would have designed the game quite differently, had I been at the helm.

[Archived Post]

DEV has all rdy said they are not adding this or changing this now its time to move ON:mad:

[Archived Post]

Admiral is now a common field job and is no longer the commanding desk position it once was. Starfleet changed how it regards admirals and names its ranks.

You can choose to display "Captain" if you want and the devs are working on it so that NPCs will address you however you choose to present yourself.

I'm partial to "Ambassador" and "Missile Commander" personally.

[Archived Post]

The topic rears it's head again about the Admiral rank. Anyone has a count of what number thread this is about Commodore? I have it as "too many and stopped counting".

i soooo agree whit you ive seen this seens beta and DEV has all rdy said NOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[Archived Post]

Admiral is now a common field job and is no longer the commanding desk position it once was. Starfleet changed how it regards admirals and names its ranks.

You can choose to display "Captain" if you want and the devs are working on it so that NPCs will address you however you choose to present yourself.

I'm partial to "Ambassador" and "Missile Commander" personally.

i dont think any of thes ppl SAW the path to 2409

[Archived Post]

See my signature for my thoughts on the topic. :cool:

[Archived Post]

They should put in Lt. Junior grade between ensign and Lt. That's canon. And if they did that, i could get my Prometheus ship at Captain rank instead of RA. :D;)

[Archived Post]

i dont think any of thes ppl SAW the path to 2409

No amount of writing will ever be able to explain why Vice Admirals are out running around planets scanning biological samples, or going hand to hand with the Breen.

There is a command structure. It just so happens that Vice Admiral is the second highest tier on that command structure, behind a full Admiral. Fleet Admirals don't even count, since there is technically only ONE Fleet Admiral, that being the CNC of Starfleet. But iaccording to Cryptic, it's now normal for the 2nd highest flag officers to do grunt work, while their grunts stand around watching them.

To use a real world example, do you see many Brigadier Generals running around the trenches, going out on patrol with their Privates, Corporals and Seargents? Do you see General Petreaus standing post, or driving a tank? No. that would be utterly stupid. You don't put the upper echelon officers in the line of fire. That's been the basis of Military Strategy since the first formation of organized Militaries. Like going back to near biblical times.

I'm sorry, but regardless of what Path to 2409 said or no matter how Crytpic tries to story it away, having 100,000 Vice Admirals running around, doing the things traditionally done by Ensigns, Lieutentants, Lieutentant Commanders, Commanders and Captains is utterly stupid and totally unrealistic.

Completely, totally, utterly stupid.

People may not like my viewpoint on it, but frankly I don't care.

[Archived Post]

dont comepare star trek to real life Militaries starfleet is not USA amry or any other for that matter and are in no way the same way

[Archived Post]

This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Cryptic Studios Forum Usage Guidelines (http://forums.startrekonline.com/announcement.php?f=70&a=2) ~GM Tiyshen

[Archived Post]

dont comepare star trek to real life Militaries starfleet is not USA amry or any other for that matter and are in no way the same way

First of all, the fictional command structure of Star Trek IS BASED ON REAL LIFE MILITARY. Has been for 40+ years. Starfleet is a military organization, just like every other known military.

Secondly, I don't need to compare the situation to a modern military. The fact is 40 years of canon established what the role of the Admiralty is. It established Captains as the movers and shakers in Starfleet. The Brass, aka Admirals, don't serve frontline. They simply don't. In TNG / DS9 / VOY we rarely saw Admirals and they certainly weren't doing the work that an Ensign does.

You can't have a top heavy command structure. It doesn't work. It makes no sense. And finally, it's not canon. 3 strikes. Am I allowed to use a baseball comparison? You know what happens at 3 strikes right?

:cool:

[Archived Post]

First of all, the fictional command structure of Star Trek IS BASED ON REAL LIFE MILITARY. Has been for 40+ years. Starfleet is a military organization, just like every other known military.

Secondly, I don't need to compare the situation to a modern military. The fact is 40 years of canon established what the role of the Admiralty is. It established Captains as the movers and shakers in Starfleet. The Brass, aka Admirals, don't serve frontline. They simply don't. In TNG / DS9 / VOY we rarely saw Admirals and they certainly weren't doing the work that an Ensign does.

You can't have a top heavy command structure. It doesn't work. It makes no sense. And finally, it's not canon. 3 strikes. Am I allowed to use a baseball comparison? You know what happens at 3 strikes right?

:cool:

well here's you a 180
Regulation 12 (Chapter 4): Relates to the Captain undertaking command of an away mission.

so wont to keep on?

and i for one am a by the book kind of guy :P

and also here you a list out of every Admiral that has ever been in starfleet

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Starfleet_admirals

and as you will see the Vice Admiral out # the Commodores

and also

Starfleet was the deep-space exploratory and military service maintained by the United Federation of Planets.

Starfleet Command, or Spacefleet Command, was the operating authority of Starfleet, the exploratory, scientific, and military department of United Earth before being integrated into the United Federation of Planets in 2161

that dont soud like are every day military

[Archived Post]

well here's you a 180
Regulation 12 (Chapter 4): Relates to the Captain undertaking command of an away mission.

so wont to keep on?

and i for one am a by the book kind of guy :P

and also here you a list out of every Admiral that has ever been in starfleet

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Starfleet_admirals

and as you will see the Vice Admiral out # the Commodores

and also

Starfleet was the deep-space exploratory and military service maintained by the United Federation of Planets.

Starfleet Command, or Spacefleet Command, was the operating authority of Starfleet, the exploratory, scientific, and military department of United Earth before being integrated into the United Federation of Planets in 2161

that dont soud like are every day military

"I'm a soldier, not a diplomat." - James T. Kirk

Right from the mouth of the Captain of all Captains.

Oh, and if Starfleet isn't a military organization, why is it currently involved in a war with the Klingons? Why was it involved in a war with the Dominion? Why was it involved in a war with the Cardassians prior to the introduction of the DeMILITARIZED Zone? Why was violation of the Romulan Neutral Zone by any Starfleet vessel considered an act of WAR?

Because Starfleet is the military arm of the Federation.

Now to your comment about Vice Admirals outranking Commodores, tell me, would that still be true if the Commodore title hadn't been abandoned in the 2280's in favor of the current Rear Admiral designation?

And even if there were more Vice Admirals than Commodores, it isn't even relavent to your argument. The argument you should have tried to make is "See how many Vice Admirals were commanding starships and conducting standard away missions?" - Oh, but you wouldn't be able to make that argument, since it never happened! rarely did we see a rear Admiral out and about on a mission, but usually it was something of a diplomatic nature, or something involving orders at the highest levels of Starfleet. (IE Rear Admiral Pressman in "The Pegasus")

The Captains are the backbone of Starfleet. They command the ships, they explore space, they enforce the laws of the Federation when the need arises. Admirals are desk jockeys.

Tell me, when was the last time we saw a Star Trek series where the primary character was a Vice Admiral flying his starship? Can you name one?

TOS? Nope - Captain
TAS? Nope - Captain
TNG? Nope - Captain
DS9? Nope - Commander / Captain
VOY? Nope - Captain
ENT? Nope - Captain

Star Trek TMP - Yep, Rear Admiral
Star Trek II TWOK - Yep, Rear Admiral
Star Trek III - Yep, Rear Admiral
Star Trek IV - Yes and No. - Demoted to Captain
Star Trek V - Nope, Captain
Star Trek VI - Nope, 2 Captains
Star Trek Generations - Nope, 3 Captains (Kirk, Harriman and Picard)
Star Trek First Contact - Nope, Captain
Star Trek Insurrection - Nope, Captain
Star Trek Nemesis - Nope, Captain

So all instances of Trek over 40+ Years showed a Captain at the helm of the starship, except for Star Trek TMP, II and III, and he was demoted back to Captain in IV.

Checkmate.

[Archived Post]

"I'm a soldier, not a diplomat." - James T. Kirk

Right from the mouth of the Captain of all Captains.

Oh, and if Starfleet isn't a military organization, why is it currently involved in a war with the Klingons? Why was it involved in a war with the Dominion? Why was it involved in a war with the Cardassians prior to the introduction of the DeMILITARIZED Zone? Why was violation of the Romulan Neutral Zone by any Starfleet vessel considered an act of WAR?

Because Starfleet is the military arm of the Federation.

Now to your comment about Vice Admirals outranking Commodores, tell me, would that still be true if the Commodore title hadn't been abandoned in the 2280's in favor of the current Rear Admiral designation?

And even if there were more Vice Admirals than Commodores, it isn't even relavent to your argument. The argument you should have tried to make is "See how many Vice Admirals were commanding starships and conducting standard away missions?" - Oh, but you wouldn't be able to make that argument, since it never happened! rarely did we see a rear Admiral out and about on a mission, but usually it was something of a diplomatic nature, or something involving orders at the highest levels of Starfleet. (IE Rear Admiral Pressman in "The Pegasus")

The Captains are the backbone of Starfleet. They command the ships, they explore space, they enforce the laws of the Federation when the need arises. Admirals are desk jockeys.

Tell me, when was the last time we saw a Star Trek series where the primary character was a Vice Admiral flying his starship? Can you name one?

TOS? Nope - Captain
TAS? Nope - Captain
TNG? Nope - Captain
DS9? Nope - Commander / Captain
VOY? Nope - Captain
ENT? Nope - Captain

Star Trek TMP - Yep, Rear Admiral
Star Trek II TWOK - Yep, Rear Admiral
Star Trek III - Yep, Rear Admiral
Star Trek IV - Yes and No. - Demoted to Captain
Star Trek V - Nope, Captain
Star Trek VI - Nope, 2 Captains
Star Trek Generations - Nope, 3 Captains (Kirk, Harriman and Picard)
Star Trek First Contact - Nope, Captain
Star Trek Insurrection - Nope, Captain
Star Trek Nemesis - Nope, Captain

So all instances of Trek over 40+ Years showed a Captain at the helm of the starship, except for Star Trek TMP, II and III, and he was demoted back to Captain in IV.

Checkmate.

Agreed, 100%

[Archived Post]

...and also here you a list out of every Admiral that has ever been in starfleet

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Starfleet_admirals...

That is not a list of every Admiral that has ever been in Starfleet... just a list of the ones we've seen on camera.

But back to the topic of characters' max rank ending at Captain - the very act of commanding a Starship is held by those at Captain rank (just as we are doing in-game). At the end of Star Trek IV, Kirk had to be busted down from Admiral to be given a ship.

[Archived Post]

"I'm a soldier, not a diplomat." - James T. Kirk

Right from the mouth of the Captain of all Captains.

Oh, and if Starfleet isn't a military organization, why is it currently involved in a war with the Klingons? Why was it involved in a war with the Dominion? Why was it involved in a war with the Cardassians prior to the introduction of the DeMILITARIZED Zone? Why was violation of the Romulan Neutral Zone by any Starfleet vessel considered an act of WAR?

Because Starfleet is the military arm of the Federation.

Now to your comment about Vice Admirals outranking Commodores, tell me, would that still be true if the Commodore title hadn't been abandoned in the 2280's in favor of the current Rear Admiral designation?

And even if there were more Vice Admirals than Commodores, it isn't even relavent to your argument. The argument you should have tried to make is "See how many Vice Admirals were commanding starships and conducting standard away missions?" - Oh, but you wouldn't be able to make that argument, since it never happened! rarely did we see a rear Admiral out and about on a mission, but usually it was something of a diplomatic nature, or something involving orders at the highest levels of Starfleet. (IE Rear Admiral Pressman in "The Pegasus")

The Captains are the backbone of Starfleet. They command the ships, they explore space, they enforce the laws of the Federation when the need arises. Admirals are desk jockeys.

Tell me, when was the last time we saw a Star Trek series where the primary character was a Vice Admiral flying his starship? Can you name one?

TOS? Nope - Captain
TAS? Nope - Captain
TNG? Nope - Captain
DS9? Nope - Commander / Captain
VOY? Nope - Captain
ENT? Nope - Captain

Star Trek TMP - Yep, Rear Admiral
Star Trek II TWOK - Yep, Rear Admiral
Star Trek III - Yep, Rear Admiral
Star Trek IV - Yes and No. - Demoted to Captain
Star Trek V - Nope, Captain
Star Trek VI - Nope, 2 Captains
Star Trek Generations - Nope, 3 Captains (Kirk, Harriman and Picard)
Star Trek First Contact - Nope, Captain
Star Trek Insurrection - Nope, Captain
Star Trek Nemesis - Nope, Captain

So all instances of Trek over 40+ Years showed a Captain at the helm of the starship, except for Star Trek TMP, II and III, and he was demoted back to Captain in IV.

Checkmate.

one never said starfleet was not military i said its NOT LIKE ARE EVERY DAY ONE

2 never said commdore out rank any ONE like omg on you

3 im not James T. KirkJames or every would wont to be

and 4 TNG all good thing Admiral Riker :P

[Archived Post]

That is not a list of every Admiral that has ever been in Starfleet... just a list of the ones we've seen on camera.

But back to the topic of characters' max rank ending at Captain - the very act of commanding a Starship is held by those at Captain rank (just as we are doing in-game). At the end of Star Trek IV, Kirk had to be busted down from Admiral to be given a ship.

well if it was not on show or movie its not connon

[Archived Post]

one never said starfleet was not military i said its NOT LIKE ARE EVERY DAY ONE

2 never said commdore out rank any ONE like omg on you

3 im not James T. KirkJames or every would wont to be

and 4 TNG all good thing Admiral Riker :P

Did you mean OUR not ARE?

You mean the Admiral of a Starbase that on one occasion did some field work, called a resurce operation?

He isn't saying Admirals never leave Starbase, they just don't do it very often. Usually, just for battle to lead a fleet. Not every day, cruisin the milky way in their pimped out space ships.

well if it was not on show or movie its not connon

So what you are saying is that, because they never ever show any other officers, then there are none?

Damn, Starfleet must be pretty small for an interstellar empire.

And it is Canon or Canonical, not connon ;)

[Archived Post]

i just put it this way take my Vice Admiral away i leave the game along whit 3 other acounts

but you know what to you commdorey im not worryed DEV has said no to it back in open beta when this was frist ever posted about a commdore crap

[Archived Post]

one never said starfleet was not military i said its NOT LIKE ARE EVERY DAY ONE

Let me draw your attention to one of your previous statements:

dont comepare star trek to real life Militaries starfleet is not USA amry or any other for that matter and are in no way the same way

You said Starfleet is nothing like the US Army. Fair enough. Starfleet is more like the United Nations. And the United Nations has a military force at it's command, does it not?

Starfleet's structure is based on typical military organizations found today and in the past, right here on Earth.


2 never said commdore out rank any ONE like omg on you

What?

3 im not James T. KirkJames or every would wont to be

What does this have to do with anything? Our debate is about the merits of everyone in STO being a Vice Admiral, yet performing the typical duties of some at the rank of Captain.

and 4 TNG all good thing Admiral Riker :P

Anti-Time Alternate Reality. Furthermore, Admiral Riker was in charge of a Starbase, and merely kept the Enterprise as his personal flagship. I highly doubt he was out on the front lines fighting the Klingons day to day. Otherwise he would have likely been DEAD.

[Archived Post]

i just put it this way take my Vice Admiral away i leave the game along whit 3 other acounts

but you know what to you commdorey im not worryed DEV has said no to it back in open beta when this was frist ever posted about a commdore crap

The point people are trying to make is you were never meant to be a Vice Admiral in the first place!

Jack Emmert said that STO was meant for everyone to be a Captain. He didn't say everyone was to be an Admiral.

If you want to be a Vice Admiral, fine, be one. But then you get to fly a desk instead of your pimped out Starship flying about the universe. That's the way this game should have been done, and what so many people have rallied for since Closed Beta. Heck, since before Closed Beta even.

[Archived Post]

"I'm a soldier, not a diplomat." - James T. Kirk

Right from the mouth of the Captain of all Captains.

Oh, and if Starfleet isn't a military organization, why is it currently involved in a war with the Klingons? Why was it involved in a war with the Dominion? Why was it involved in a war with the Cardassians prior to the introduction of the DeMILITARIZED Zone? Why was violation of the Romulan Neutral Zone by any Starfleet vessel considered an act of WAR?

Starfleet was involved in wars either for its own survival (i.e. Dominion War) or the continued existence/prosperity of another planet/race. There have been exceptions (i.e. the Klingon Civil War of 2367-2368), but it almost exclusively tries to end conflicts in a non-violent manner. Even Kirk, the "Captain of all Captains", tried diplomacy before even considering using a phaser.

Because Starfleet is the military arm of the Federation.

Technically, Starfleet is a PARA-military organization.

And even if there were more Vice Admirals than Commodores, it isn't even relavent to your argument. The argument you should have tried to make is "See how many Vice Admirals were commanding starships and conducting standard away missions?" - Oh, but you wouldn't be able to make that argument, since it never happened! rarely did we see a rear Admiral out and about on a mission, but usually it was something of a diplomatic nature, or something involving orders at the highest levels of Starfleet. (IE Rear Admiral Pressman in "The Pegasus")

Admiral Kirk...Admiral Ross...Admiral Dougherty...and more that I can't remember off the top of my head. It's not as rare as you'd think.

[Archived Post]

Let me draw your attention to one of your previous statements:



You said Starfleet is nothing like the US Army. Fair enough. Starfleet is more like the United Nations. And the United Nations has a military force at it's command, does it not?

Starfleet's structure is based on typical military organizations found today and in the past, right here on Earth.




What?



What does this have to do with anything? Our debate is about the merits of everyone in STO being a Vice Admiral, yet performing the typical duties of some at the rank of Captain.



Anti-Time Alternate Reality. Furthermore, Admiral Riker was in charge of a Starbase, and merely kept the Enterprise as his personal flagship. I highly doubt he was out on the front lines fighting the Klingons day to day. Otherwise he would have likely been DEAD.

well we wont to do it real life then when you ship gose pop you go back to make a new toon you dont respawn more or less you DIE for good

[Archived Post]

Admiral Kirk...Admiral Ross...Admiral Dougherty...and more that I can't remember off the top of my head. It's not as rare as you'd think.

Admiral Kirk forced his way back on to the Enterprise in TMP. He wasn't even the actual commander of the Enterprise for ST:II - Captain Spock was. Then he stole the Enterprise in ST:III. Not exactly typical Admiral behavior, right? Thus, he got demoted for his actions...back to Captain.

Admiral Ross - Commanded a fleet during war, and his command was Starbase 375. He didn't command a ship until the massive battles took place.

Admiral Dougherty - Didn't command a ship.

[Archived Post]

well we wont to do it real life then when you ship gose pop you go back to make a new toon you dont respawn more or less you DIE for good

Fine by me. I was always in favor of a more realistic approach in STO.

Bring it on!

[Archived Post]

Fine by me. I was always in favor of a more realistic approach in STO.

Bring it on!

ya i bet you would that would also mean you lose every thing EC every thing

and also was a Admiral in command of a Starship in Star Trek First Contact LoooK it UP

and also wolf 359 give me time i come up whit more

[Archived Post]

well we wont to do it real life then when you ship gose pop you go back to make a new toon you dont respawn more or less you DIE for good

and also there was a admiral commanding a ship in Star Trek First Contact look it UP

They aren't saying Admirals never leave their damn chairs, they are saying the day to day lives of Admirals are behind a desk. For major battles and wars, yes they lead fleets, but that is it. When in all of Star Trek did it show an Admirals doing anything but A) Giving Orders, B) Leading Fleets on major Battles, or C) Attending Diplomatic Events?

[Archived Post]

I reserve 'Commodore' for a specialty rank that would apply only to Fleet Leaders/Officers which would give them the unique ability to establish and run Fleet Space Stations if ever implimented in a future patch. That would be my suggestion.

[Archived Post]

ya i bet you would that would also mean you lose every thing EC every thing

Yep. I'd be totally fine with that. I've played MMOs that had true death penalties. It certainly develops better players when you have that much more to lose, rather than today's current crop of button mashers that shrug when they die.

and also was a Admiral in command of a Starship in Star Trek First Contact LoooK it UP

and also wolf 359 give me time i come up whit more

Yes. An Admiral. Most likely took a ship out of space dock to bolster the fleet that were trying to hold off the Borg. As was the case with Admiral Hansen at Wolf 359. That's what we call an Emergency situation, all hands on deck. Not your typical day to day operation.

You go ahead and come up with more. I'll point out the flaws with your logic on those too. Simply put, the Captains are the stars. Always have been, always will be. Shatner, Stewart, Brooks, Mulgrew and Bakula. Those are the prime stars. Not the secondaries that filled in the Admiral roles.

[Archived Post]

Star Trek did it show an Admirals doing anything but A) Giving Orders, B) Leading Fleets on major Battles, or C) Attending Diplomatic Events?

you said it right there can you say you know where every admiral in starfleet is AT how about what they where doin? all you saw was what a show wonted you to see who say a Admiral did not have a Ship where all its Bridge cew where admiral?

thing is you CANT

[Archived Post]

you said it right there can you say you know where every admiral in starfleet is AT how about what they where doin? all you saw was what a show wonted you to see who say a Admiral did not have a Ship where all its Bridge cew where admiral?

thing is you CANT

No one can understand you with that kind of run on sentence. Please, use some punctuations, so we can understand you. By the way I'd love to answer your question, but I'd need to know what it is I'm answering.

[Archived Post]

No one can understand you with that kind of run on sentence. Please, use some punctuations, so we can understand you. By the way I'd love to answer your question, but I'd need to know what it is I'm answering.

i fine make a point that you can come back whit now you wont to make fun me..... btw thats very low to i fix that welcome to ignore and reported

[Archived Post]

i fine make a point that you can come back whit now you wont to make fun me..... btw thats very low to i fix that welcome to ignore and reported

No, I want to answer your question , i really do, but I can't understand what you are trying to say? I'm not making fun of you, I'm just asking you to be clearer.

[Archived Post]

you said it right there can you say you know where every admiral in starfleet is AT how about what they where doin? all you saw was what a show wonted you to see who say a Admiral did not have a Ship where all its Bridge cew where admiral?

thing is you CANT

I think people are going by reasoned guesses based on how command works within a military. I don't think US Admirals are given small destroyers to steam around the world but rather entire battle groups. Those in the military can correct me here if I'm wrong. Starfleet would reasonably work the same way in that you wouldn't have an admiral exploring the universe in a ship.

[Archived Post]

No one can understand you with that kind of run on sentence. Please, use some punctuations, so we can understand you. By the way I'd love to answer your question, but I'd need to know what it is I'm answering.

He's saying that in the background, there must have been thousands of Admirals running around commanding starships, and the Captains we came to know and love were the rarity.

Problem with his thinking is the shows went out of their way to establish that Captain's were in the center seat. Sometimes it was a Commander. Maybe even Lieutentant Commanders.

But the idea that Admirals were running around all the time in starships doing typical frontline duties is ridiculous.

If Admirals were so commonplace in the center seat, then why oh why was the Enterprise, the most famous ship in Starfleet, always in the hands of a Captain? Why was DS9, a space station, in the hands of a Commander? (eventually promoted to Captain) Why weren't the stars of these shows:

Vice Admiral Kirk
Vice Admiral Picard
Rear Admiral Sisko
Vice Admiral Janeway
Admiral Archer (since the Earth Starfleet didn't distinguish it's Admirals)

Fact: Starfleet is based on the military. And it wouldn't be a fun show to watch if all you saw was by the book top brass.

[Archived Post]

He's saying that in the background, there must have been thousands of Admirals running around commanding starships, and the Captains we came to know and love were the rarity.

Problem with his thinking is the shows went out of their way to establish that Captain's were in the center seat. Sometimes it was a Commander. Maybe even Lieutentant Commanders.

But the idea that Admirals were running around all the time in starships doing typical frontline duties is ridiculous.

If Admirals were so commonplace in the center seat, then why oh why was the Enterprise, the most famous ship in Starfleet, always in the hands of a Captain? Why was DS9, a space station, in the hands of a Commander? (eventually promoted to Captain) Why weren't the stars of these shows:

Vice Admiral Kirk
Vice Admiral Picard
Rear Admiral Sisko
Vice Admiral Janeway
Admiral Archer (since the Earth Starfleet didn't distinguish it's Admirals)

Fact: Starfleet is based on the military. And it wouldn't be a fun show to watch if all you saw was by the book top brass.

OHHHH, thank you for explaining.

And I agree with you, good points.

[Archived Post]

He's saying that in the background, there must have been thousands of Admirals running around commanding starships, and the Captains we came to know and love were the rarity.

Problem with his thinking is the shows went out of their way to establish that Captain's were in the center seat. Sometimes it was a Commander. Maybe even Lieutentant Commanders.

But the idea that Admirals were running around all the time in starships doing typical frontline duties is ridiculous.

If Admirals were so commonplace in the center seat, then why oh why was the Enterprise, the most famous ship in Starfleet, always in the hands of a Captain? Why was DS9, a space station, in the hands of a Commander? (eventually promoted to Captain) Why weren't the stars of these shows:

Vice Admiral Kirk
Vice Admiral Picard
Rear Admiral Sisko
Vice Admiral Janeway
Admiral Archer (since the Earth Starfleet didn't distinguish it's Admirals)

Fact: Starfleet is based on the military. And it wouldn't be a fun show to watch if all you saw was by the book top brass.

seen you wont to make fun of me you also welcome to ignore
and was saying what IFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
like i said you dont know what every admiral in starfleet was doin!!!!!!!!!!!!11

[Archived Post]

seen you wont to make fun of me you also welcome to ignore
and was saying what IFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
like i said you dont know what every admiral in fing starfleet was doin!!!!!!!!!!!!11

If it were true that they did indeed do what you're saying, why is it that in 40+ years of Trek, 11 movies, and 5 (6 including TAS), they are never ever shown doing that? By your logic, Admirals jobs could be running Willy Wonka's Chocolate factory, because we don't know everything they are doing.

[Archived Post]

If it were true that they did indeed do what you're saying, why is it that in 40+ years of Trek, 11 movies, and 5 (6 including TAS), they are never ever shown doing that? By your logic, Admirals jobs could be running Willy Wonka's Chocolate factory, because we don't know everything they are doing.

I'm sorry, but speaking as a retired Army Veteran, no one knows what high ranking officials do, period. There are Admirals and Generals doing just as much of their job as the people on the front line. They've earned their rank and from my understanding, you're wanting to strip the earned rank from people who've worked hard to achieve it?

And what's wrong with Admirals? Admirals have been an American icon since the wooden sailing ships of Europe.

Also, Cpt. William, there HAVE been shows that show Admirals doing their work, when they're needed to be shown. So many times have there been Priority Messages from Starfleet that, what do you know, is initiated by an Admiral. Go figure.

Just had to "vent".

LVBandit
Las Vegas, Nevada
Retired Army
Recipient of Soldier's Medal and Joint Operation Commendation Medal

[Archived Post]

Before I begin addressing your post, either you haven't read everything we have been posting or you didn't read it well enough and you have misunderstood what I am trying to say.

I'm sorry, but speaking as a retired Army Veteran, no one knows what high ranking officials do, period. There are Admirals and Generals doing just as much of their job as the people on the front line. They've earned their rank and from my understanding, you're wanting to strip the earned rank from people who've worked hard to achieve it?

They are doing there jobs, but it isn't the same exact set of duties as everybody else. This game presents everyone from Lieutenant to Vice Admiral, doing almost the exact same thing. Which would be like saying Generals are doing recon patrols and ground front lines fighting building to building with insurgents


And what's wrong with Admirals? Admirals have been an American icon since the wooden sailing ships of Europe.

Nothing is wrong with Admirals, as long as they have the right responsibility.


Also, Cpt. William, there HAVE been shows that show Admirals doing their work, when they're needed to be shown. So many times have there been Priority Messages from Starfleet that, what do you know, is initiated by an Admiral. Go figure.

That was exactly my point, that that is what Admirals do, not command ships on their own doing the Picard thing. They organize and give orders, not what most of the Admirals in STO do.

According to the poster I have been arguing with, Admirals do the whole final frontier ship thing, and he is justifying it by saying that we haven't been shown what every Admiral is doing in Starfleet. (Which violates a previous statement he said about how everything outside what was shown doesn't count, only what was shown on screen.) I countered that if that logic can be used, it means that they could be doing anything anyone comes up with.

[Archived Post]

This argument again, why can't this topic just die already. Lets put this simply, Commodore is as old as the Constitution class and is now an obsolete rank. It went out in 2350. ever since then, the new rank to take over commodore is rear admiral lower half.

[Archived Post]

/totally with you on this

Rear Admiral Lower Half is the clunkiest title I have ever heard in my life.
:(

[Archived Post]

This argument again, why can't this topic just die already. Lets put this simply, Commodore is as old as the Constitution class and is now an obsolete rank. It went out in 2350. ever since then, the new rank to take over commodore is rear admiral lower half.

But the Constitution Class is in this game. :D

[Archived Post]

THIS!!

With one addition - players should be capped at CAPTAIN, and Fleet Leaders should get the title of ADMIRAL (because they're actually commanding multiple vessels by leading their Fleet).

i dont mind the stop at CPT bit, but its not as such...

what i find in error is your ADM rank for fleet leaders only.

not only would you seperate player base, but you would have people making fake fleets then just to get it. so NO to that idea....

it works the way it is, its just a naming convention. if they added COM for title sake i would say kewls, but not as a game rank.

aside from the name, there is a lot in the background that would need to be re-tooled in order for it to take effect. thereby pushing back current fixes and up-and-coming additions to the game.

NO....just NO. :)

[Archived Post]

I know that the way that the US Navy has it set up currently is to have the 2 halves of the Rear Admiral rank. However, previously, and can still be the case in times of war, the one star rank has been refered to as Commodore. In TOS, this rank has been called 2 things, Commodore and Fleet Captain.

I think it would make it a little less of a mouth full if RALH/RAUH was changed to Commodore in game and would still be in keeping with canon. Anyone feel the same way?


In the US Navy "Commodore" is a position not a rank. It is generally an O-6(captain) or higher that is in charge of a certain amount of ships in a squadron (this depends on the type of platform of course).


I dont see any reason to put this in the game. As it is nobody should be an admiral because aside from guild leaders nobody is really in command of any ships besides their own and the title commodore suggests command of several vessels, which we do not have.


I've given great thought to changing my title back to "Captain", putting captain pips back on, and just treating the fact that I'm a VA1 as a level that has nothing to do with my starfleet rank.

[Archived Post]

They are doing there jobs, but it isn't the same exact set of duties as everybody else. This game presents everyone from Lieutenant to Vice Admiral, doing almost the exact same thing. Which would be like saying Generals are doing recon patrols and ground front lines fighting building to building with insurgents

That was exactly my point, that that is what Admirals do, not command ships on their own doing the Picard thing. They organize and give orders, not what most of the Admirals in STO do.

According to the poster I have been arguing with, Admirals do the whole final frontier ship thing, and he is justifying it by saying that we haven't been shown what every Admiral is doing in Starfleet. (Which violates a previous statement he said about how everything outside what was shown doesn't count, only what was shown on screen.) I countered that if that logic can be used, it means that they could be doing anything anyone comes up with.

So Let's get this straight, you would be happy with doing a desk job in a MMO? or start out fixing an blown EPS flow regulator as a Computer commands the ship and you have to earn your way up in rank? You're right in STO you end up doing the same thing for all ranks, simply because it's what people want to do.

I know for a fact that I want to be the captain of my ship, I don't want to be some low rank officer pressing a few buttons and doing some lame thing for a good chunk of my career, and then end up getting command of my own ship and then have it taken away because they want me stuck behind a desk because I'm an admiral. It may be realistic, but it makes for a boring game. Honestly, ranks in this game are a measure of your level as a captain, and should not be taken as what people of that rank should be doing.

One final point, I know a lot of Admirals are doing desk jobs, but I can name two examples where that isn't true. The Admiral in the movie "first contact" was flying his personal command ship, and was destroyed, and Admiral Riker flying the Galaxy X into combat. Admirals can have there own ships, though they still tend to be leading multiple ships into combat.

And the poster you are arguing with is correct. How do we know what Admirals do? We can assume some of the same functions as are current military, but then we could be wrong. After all, do you know a military force that primary goal is the peaceful exploration of the galaxy? Blind assumptions can lead to false outcomes. For all we know, admirals could be running their own ship, especially during a war style setting.

[Archived Post]

In the US Navy "Commodore" is a position not a rank. It is generally an O-6(captain) or higher that is in charge of a certain amount of ships in a squadron (this depends on the type of platform of course).


I dont see any reason to put this in the game. As it is nobody should be an admiral because aside from guild leaders nobody is really in command of any ships besides their own and the title commodore suggests command of several vessels, which we do not have.


I've given great thought to changing my title back to "Captain", putting captain pips back on, and just treating the fact that I'm a VA1 as a level that has nothing to do with my starfleet rank.

I'll agree, Honestly, The best way ton look at it is this. We have been Captains all along, but the rank they show us is actually a measure of our Captaining ability. So VA1 is a top tier captain, while a LT is a low tier captain. Going the extra step to call yourself captain and have captain pips is a good idea, and I agree with you're reasoning.

[Archived Post]

dont comepare star trek to real life Militaries starfleet is not USA amry or any other for that matter and are in no way the same way

Yes but we have over 45 years of Star Trek to show us the real stars of the shows were CAPTAINS, not Admirals. Hell, even Kirk got him self-demoted back to Captain. Captain should be the star of this game, yet it is simply an annoying rank to grind through to get to the coveted RA rank so you can get all the cool ships.


The bottom line, this will be a never ending request/debate. The easiest solution: Give us a Commodore TITLE to use as a drop down with all our other ranks and/or titles (like Envoy and Ambassader and the like). Hell, make it a C-Store purchase, I'd buy it! End all these threads once and for all.

[Archived Post]

So Let's get this straight, you would be happy with doing a desk job in a MMO? or start out fixing an blown EPS flow regulator as a Computer commands the ship and you have to earn your way up in rank? You're right in STO you end up doing the same thing for all ranks, simply because it's what people want to do.

I know for a fact that I want to be the captain of my ship, I don't want to be some low rank officer pressing a few buttons and doing some lame thing for a good chunk of my career, and then end up getting command of my own ship and then have it taken away because they want me stuck behind a desk because I'm an admiral. It may be realistic, but it makes for a boring game. Honestly, ranks in this game are a measure of your level as a captain, and should not be taken as what people of that rank should be doing.

One final point, I know a lot of Admirals are doing desk jobs, but I can name two examples where that isn't true. The Admiral in the movie "first contact" was flying his personal command ship, and was destroyed, and Admiral Riker flying the Galaxy X into combat. Admirals can have there own ships, though they still tend to be leading multiple ships into combat.

And the poster you are arguing with is correct. How do we know what Admirals do? We can assume some of the same functions as are current military, but then we could be wrong. After all, do you know a military force that primary goal is the peaceful exploration of the galaxy? Blind assumptions can lead to false outcomes. For all we know, admirals could be running their own ship, especially during a war style setting.

My point was that the Admiral rank should only be for people wanting to do that kind of boring stuff. For people who want to do what Captains are doing simply make them captains.

Obviously, you haven't read the rest of this thread and have made a false assumption based on incomplete information. I don't think Admirals do nothing but sit at a desk. They do three things, 1) Give Orders, 2) Attend Diplomatic Events, and 3) Command Fleets in War or Desperate Battles. Admiral Riker ran a Starbase, but he didn't just fly around in his ship.

As for your last point, we know what Admirals have been doing because in 40+ years of Trek, 11 Movies, and 5 (6 counting TAS) TV Series, those three things are all they did. The logic that "Well, we don't know exactly what they are doing, so we can guess." means that we can speculate they are doing anything. "Well we don't know everything they are doing, so maybe they are running Willy Wonka's Chocolate Factory.
As for the War setting, how come in DS9 (a show that constantly had some type of Warfare), the only time Admirals were on a ship was in major, massive battles, coordinating a fleet?

[Archived Post]

Commodore (later replaced by rear admiral-lower half) is a naval rank, the equivalent of which is used by the service organizations of many civilizations. As a traditional grade, commodore is the most junior flag officer rank of a naval organization, under an admiral rank (usually under rear admiral) but senior to a captain. Commodores command groups of ships, as opposed to captains commanding single ships or units. In comparison to other ranking systems, this rank is equivalent to the military brigadier or brigadier general.

The rank of commodore was used by Starfleet until at least the 2270s. In 2366, Geordi La Forge insulted Centurion Bochra by calling him commodore, to which Bochra promptly corrected La Forge as to his proper title. (TNG: "The Enemy")

La Forge calling Bochra "commodore" was the only time that the rank was ever spoken of in Star Trek: The Next Generation.

plus this ever gets addid i see to it all commodore are behind a DESK like they sould be

commodore is gone now move on DIE hard ToS fans

[Archived Post]

In a game that features TOS Uniforms, and Constitution class ships, it is pretty hard to argue that the rank "Commodore" is too old and outdated. :D

[Archived Post]

In a game that features TOS Uniforms, and Constitution class ships, it is pretty hard to argue that the rank "Commodore" is too old and outdated. :D

Commodore (later replaced by rear admiral-lower half)

Commodore (later replaced by rear admiral-lower half)

Commodore (later replaced by rear admiral-lower half)

not outdated

[Archived Post]

Commodore (later replaced by rear admiral-lower half)

Commodore (later replaced by rear admiral-lower half)

Commodore (later replaced by rear admiral-lower half)

not outdated

Then why are you against it in the game?

[Archived Post]

Then why are you against it in the game?

replaced being the key word

[Archived Post]

Yes but we have over 45 years of Star Trek to show us the real stars of the shows were CAPTAINS, not Admirals. Hell, even Kirk got him self-demoted back to Captain. Captain should be the star of this game, yet it is simply an annoying rank to grind through to get to the coveted RA rank so you can get all the cool ships.



The bottom line, this will be a never ending request/debate. The easiest solution: Give us a Commodore TITLE to use as a drop down with all our other ranks and/or titles (like Envoy and Ambassader and the like). Hell, make it a C-Store purchase, I'd buy it! End all these threads once and for all.

First half of your statement:
Yes the stars of the shows are Captains, those are shows not real life or an MMO.. In real life the command of a ship is most often given to the naval rank equivalent to a commissioned officer between commander (OF-4) and commodore or rear admiral (OF-6). However this is an MMO that everyone is complaining about..Captain rank is just one rank you have to level through to get through the game.. IE "Game" and what are you suppose to do with a game? Win it! IE reach the highest rank, meaning that Vise Admirals are the "stars" here..

Second half of your statement:
I agree..

In a game that features TOS Uniforms, and Constitution class ships, it is pretty hard to argue that the rank "Commodore" is too old and outdated. :D

The TOS Uniforms and Constitution class ship are in the MMO simply to make money it is NOT Cannon, meaning that it should not be there.. So I guess if your concerned about the story arc then you should ignore the fact that the dervs in all their wisdom have put the TOS Uniforms and Constitution class ship in the game..

I repeat: THE TOS UNIFORMS AND CONSTITUTION SHIPARE IN THE GAME SIMPLYTO MAKE MONEY!!

OK for everyone that wants to know here is the ranking structure for our navy's officer ranks..

Commissioned officers can generally be divided into line officers and staff corps; line officers can be further split into unrestricted and restricted communities. Unrestricted Line Officers are the warfighting command element and are authorized to command ships, aviation squadrons, and special operations units. Restricted Line Officers, on the other hand, concentrate on non-combat related fields, such as engineering and maintenance; they are not qualified to command combat units. Staff Corps officers are specialists in fields that are themselves professional careers and not exclusive to the military, for example: medicine, science, law, and civil engineering.

Officers of the Navy:

• O-11 Fleet Admiral~Naval war time only..
• O-10 Admiral
• O-9 Vice-Admiral Highest rank to *captain a ship
• O-8 Rear Admiral
• O-7 Rear Admiral Lower half Refered to as simply Rear Admiral
• O-6 Captain
• O-5 Commander Lowest rank to *captain a ship
• O-4 Lieutenant Commander
• O-3 Lieutenant
• O-2 Lieutenant Junior Grade
• O-1 Ensign

*The word captain is used as a term meaning "to command".

[Archived Post]

The topic rears it's head again about the Admiral rank. Anyone has a count of what number thread this is about Commodore? I have it as "too many and stopped counting".

23 Since I stared in July I think

[Archived Post]

replaced being the key word

Guess what else was replaced? Half the uniforms in game and multiple ships, yet they are still in-game.


The TOS Uniforms and Constitution class ship are in the MMO simply to make money it is NOT Cannon, meaning that it should not be there.. So I guess if your concerned about the story arc then you should ignore the fact that the dervs in all their wisdom have put the TOS Uniforms and Constitution class ship in the game..

I repeat: THE TOS UNIFORMS AND CONSTITUTION SHIPARE IN THE GAME SIMPLYTO MAKE MONEY!!


Anything in the game is within the soft canon of the game, period. Also, if they were strickly to make money, why is one of them available at T2 with the game and the TOS uniforms available for free? And the TOS Connie was free with pre-order.

[Archived Post]

marketing...

However thats not the purpose of this thread.. This threads' purpose is to discuss why we do not have the Commodore rank..

[Archived Post]

marketing...

However thats not the purpose of this thread.. This threads' purpose is to discuss why we do not have the Commodore rank..

thread had lived its purpose and you revived it...why?

[Archived Post]

The US navy doesn't use Commodore in an official capacity does it? I'm fairly certain that Rear Admiral (lower) is used.

as an honorific when a captain commands a temporary small fleet/flotilla (usually for a mission) he is called commodore, but only while in charge of the flotilla, once its over his title reverts back to captain

[Archived Post]

Every single thing said by CaptMattSchwab in this thread: Agreed.

Admirals fly desks.

The only time an admiral is commanding a ship (ala TMP), they're using their authority to temporarily assume command. It's not a permanent command. Only Starfleet can give permanent commands.

Every other time we see an admiral on a ship he's not commanding that ship--he's commanding a fleet of ships, and that ship will have its own Captain standing by to reiterate the commands of the Admiral to the ship's crew.

Alternatively, such as seen in Insurrection, the admiral is on the ship but doesn't "command" anything. He's there in a political manner with an ally. When he tried to issue commands and overstep his bounds, he got himself killed by said "ally". Besides.. that was also an admiral violating Federation principles... he doesn't exactly represent an admiral in a normal, official role.

What STO should do:

Disconnect ships/items/mission requirements from rank at Captain and use another scale for progression. This will keep us all at Captain but allow us to continue evolving our character. It simultaneously gets Cryptic out of the corner of having so quickly accounted for all practical ranks and running out of room on that progression scale.

[Archived Post]

The bigger underlying problem is the unrealistic approach that STO takes in terms of Admirals.

40 years of Star Trek showed us that if you want to be in on the action, you are a Captain. Admirals are administrators, big picture strategists. Yet, in STO, everyone is a frickin Admiral.

Whatever happened to Kirk's sentiment?

"Don't let them promote you. Don't let them transfer you. Don't let them do anything that takes you off the bridge of that ship because while you're there, you can make a difference."

During all the series, we saw Admirals in a traditional role, serving at Starbases and Starfleet Command, touring around in their flagships, and often times, seen as the menace or advesary of the frontline commander or starship captain. The captains were the ones to be envied and revered.

Yet in STO, Captain was nothing but a brief milestone on your way to a rank which would normally have you at a desk in Starfleet Headquarters or commanding cadets at the Academy.

And in STO, Vice Admirals and Rear Admirals are still conducting away missions in the thick of the fight, still fighting frontline engagements in ships of the line? This doesn't make a lick of sense. Heck, the rules governing a CAPTAIN leaving a starship for away missions were strict enough. I hate to think what the rules were about a VICE ADMIRAL fighting in the trenches!

In my opinion, STO should have level capped at Captain, and the time between ranks should have been significantly increased. Admiralty should have been reserved for the future incase STO ever offered a system like "Battleground:Europe" where players form missions and issue orders (typical duties of an Admiral, think big picture) or it should have been a vanity title for those who have done all there is to do, achieved the most and the hardest to achieve accolades.

But alas, it would seem we are stuck with this ridiculous system now.

I agree with most of this. This is why I tag my toon as a Captain and wear Captain rank, regardless of the VA "rank" level. I would only add that while the time between rank promotions should increase, the current ship tiers should remain the same (or maybe about 2 ship tiers per rank), except you may increase it for Tier 5 or future higher tiers.

[Archived Post]

I've been complaining about the "Rear Admiral" title versus Commodore since launch. The Star Trek alti-verse has used the Commodore (or, rarely, Fleet Captain) title throughout the entirety of its history. I find it unfathomable that Cryptic insists on denying players the Commodore rank, especially after adding the RA, "Upper Half" rank (talk about an ungainly, undignified mouthful).

Cryptic, please rename the Rear Admiral, Lower Half rank to the traditional Star Trek rank of Commodore and make the "Upper Half" the only RA rank in STO. The Trek alti-verse and STO are not the USN, NATO, or any other contemporary military organization and, therefore, fleet ranks should not be slaved to some "real world" equivalency.

At the VERY LEAST, make Commodore an optional costume Title for players reaching RA, LH. This would be a simple solution and would satisfy most players.

In the late 2300s STARFLEET replaced Commodore with RA, LH. This is not a Cryptic-made change, this is a Star Trek Canon change. In fact, Geordi even uses the title "Commodore" as an insult against the Romulan Bochra in a TNG episode (the title I can't remember, but I saw it the other day.)

Get over it.

[Archived Post]

In the late 2300s STARFLEET replaced Commodore with RA, LH. This is not a Cryptic-made change, this is a Star Trek Canon change. In fact, Geordi even uses the title "Commodore" as an insult against the Romulan Bochra in a TNG episode (the title I can't remember, but I saw it the other day.)

Get over it.

They also replaced TOS Uniforms, TWOK Uniforms, and the Connie, yet those are in game. So why can't a Title?

[Archived Post]

They also replaced TOS Uniforms, TWOK Uniforms, and the Connie, yet those are in game. So why can't a Title?
... you'll get your title but it will only be used on the Holodeck.

You have to remember that the Rank is also how many NPCs address you and Commodore would be an insult to a RA & above.

[Archived Post]

Someone answer me this:

We have al kinds of crazy titles in game, available to Starfleet officers. Titles that never would have been given to an officer in Starfleet.

Yet, any time someone mentions the idea of having Commodore or Fleet Captain as a title, everyone goes ape-batty and miles long forum threads ensue.

Cryptic: Why do you give us wacky titles that aren't even canon, but we ask for 2 titles that HAVE been used in canon, and you remain silent and don't give them to us.

Frankly, the rank name doesn't matter to me. The titles, by which we identify ourselves are the thing that is visible. If I want to be a "Commodore" once I hit RA, then why can't I be? They are the SAME THING!!! One is a past term, one is a future term.

We have TOS Era and TWOK Era uniforms, but we can't have a simple vanity title to go with it, that takes like 5 minutes to code?

I don't care about titles like "Stalwart" or "Redoubtable". Those are titles you'd expect in a fantasy MMO. But I do care about titles which mean something to the game and the franchise. Just give it to us already, then we can finally put this issue to rest once and for all!

[Archived Post]

Someone answer me this:

We have al kinds of crazy titles in game, available to Starfleet officers. Titles that never would have been given to an officer in Starfleet.

Yet, any time someone mentions the idea of having Commodore or Fleet Captain as a title, everyone goes ape-batty and miles long forum threads ensue.

Cryptic: Why do you give us wacky titles that aren't even canon, but we ask for 2 titles that HAVE been used in canon, and you remain silent and don't give them to us.

Frankly, the rank name doesn't matter to me. The titles, by which we identify ourselves are the thing that is visible. If I want to be a "Commodore" once I hit RA, then why can't I be? They are the SAME THING!!! One is a past term, one is a future term.

We have TOS Era and TWOK Era uniforms, but we can't have a simple vanity title to go with it, that takes like 5 minutes to code?

I don't care about titles like "Stalwart" or "Redoubtable". Those are titles you'd expect in a fantasy MMO. But I do care about titles which mean something to the game and the franchise. Just give it to us already, then we can finally put this issue to rest once and for all!

omg! You are my hero!!!!! Quoted for truth!!!!!!! You read my mind! THIS!!!! And any other catchy catch phrase I can think of! :)

[Archived Post]

Someone answer me this:

We have al kinds of crazy titles in game, available to Starfleet officers. Titles that never would have been given to an officer in Starfleet.

Yet, any time someone mentions the idea of having Commodore or Fleet Captain as a title, everyone goes ape-batty and miles long forum threads ensue.

Cryptic: Why do you give us wacky titles that aren't even canon, but we ask for 2 titles that HAVE been used in canon, and you remain silent and don't give them to us.

Frankly, the rank name doesn't matter to me. The titles, by which we identify ourselves are the thing that is visible. If I want to be a "Commodore" once I hit RA, then why can't I be? They are the SAME THING!!! One is a past term, one is a future term.

We have TOS Era and TWOK Era uniforms, but we can't have a simple vanity title to go with it, that takes like 5 minutes to code?

I don't care about titles like "Stalwart" or "Redoubtable". Those are titles you'd expect in a fantasy MMO. But I do care about titles which mean something to the game and the franchise. Just give it to us already, then we can finally put this issue to rest once and for all!

No one said it can't be a title. The OP+supporters want Cryptic to make it a RANK. If it's a Title, then it makes perfect sense. As a rank, not at all.

[Archived Post]

No one said it can't be a title. The OP+supporters want Cryptic to make it a RANK. If it's a Title, then it makes perfect sense. As a rank, not at all.

People have been asking for it as a vanity title for nearly as long as it's been asked for as a rank.

Frankly I don't care what they call the rank. The rank means didly to me. Except for one of my toons, all my characters roll as Captain, even if they are Rear Admiral or Vice Admiral.

But it would be nice to have the vanity titles for Commodore and Fleet Captain, just like we have the Lieutentant J.G. vanity title.

I'd really like to see Cryptic just come out here and say "Yep, we'll give you the vanity titles. They will be in the next patch. Now we can put this to rest and all future threads opened on this topic will be closed since we are giving you what you want."

Sadly, Cryptic has been nothing but crickets and tumbleweeds on this.

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I am all for the title of "Commodore." It means I show my soulful side on the stage or I can play old classic video games on 64 or 128k. ;)

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... you'll get your title but it will only be used on the Holodeck.

You have to remember that the Rank is also how many NPCs address you and Commodore would be an insult to a RA & above.

Except that what people find offensive is subjective. You may find "Commodore" offensive, and I do not. Whereas I am offended Cryptic can't come up with a better way to address me other than "Rear Admiral, Lower Class."

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Except that what people find offensive is subjective. You may find "Commodore" offensive, and I do not. Whereas I am offended Cryptic can't come up with a better way to address me other than "Rear Admiral, Lower Class."

I meant in-game, via the lore.

Personally, i don't care. However, the lore of the game and series dropped Commodore back in the 2370s.

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In the late 2300s STARFLEET replaced Commodore with RA, LH. This is not a Cryptic-made change, this is a Star Trek Canon change.And your source on this is...?

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I'd like to see Commodore, yes.

I also think the ground soldier ranks would be great for a PvP progression system, particularly ground PvP progression. Stuff like Colonel. (ie. Colonel West).

And Deputy Director (a rank used by Sloan from Section 31 in his cover identity, which had unique rank insignia) and Director, maybe tied to an intelligence system. (Imagine missions that involve Metal Gear-style stealth, trying not to aggro enemies, maybe with an alarm rating like Grant Theft Auto.) So you'd go something like Agent -> Special Agent -> Deputy Director -> Director.

Heck, you could introduce new systems like this in weeklies, with daily missions that give you progression in that area.

[Archived Post]

Why not add Commodore as an unlockable title for Fleet Leaders of Captain Ranking (or higher)?

That way it remains a situational title that isn't a guaranteed hit on the rank advancement (i.e. most captains never saw commodore - they just went to rear admiral).

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I meant in-game, via the lore.

Personally, i don't care. However, the lore of the game and series dropped Commodore back in the 2370s.

And the lore of the series dropped TOS Uniforms, TOS ships, and the like, ye they are here.

[Archived Post]

And the lore of the series dropped TOS Uniforms, TOS ships, and the like, ye they are here.

See above your post.

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See above your post.

So the only possible way is for people to start making there own fleets to gain the title? How does that solve anything?

[Archived Post]

See above your post.Why not just fix it the way it is supposed to be, according to the canon? Same for the Klingon ranks.

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I'd kinda like the Commodore title, just so I can rename my Borg captain "64"..

^_^

[Archived Post]

I'd kinda like the Commodore title, just so I can rename my Borg captain "64"..Uhhh. I can't wait until I see the first "General Motors" in the KDF. Good thing there's no Major-rank yet ... :P

[Archived Post]

I'd kinda like the Commodore title, just so I can rename my Borg captain "64"..

^_^

Uhhh. I can't wait until I see the first "General Motors" in the KDF. Good thing there's no Major-rank yet ... :P

Oooh! Now I want to make a new Fed character, so I can call him Captain Crunch!

(Although, I'm sure others have already thought of that one, heh.)

[Archived Post]

So the only possible way is for people to start making there own fleets to gain the title? How does that solve anything?
It already makes little sense to have Admiralty who don't command multiple ships.

Now you want a title specifically delegated to veteran Captains (but not Rear Admirals) for commanding multiple ships to not fulfill the only purpose of the billet-driven rank? :eek:

Why not just fix it the way it is supposed to be, according to the canon? Same for the Klingon ranks.

Captains didn't automatically make it to Commodore, many went straight to Rear Admiralty. It's a situational title based on the billet you hold.

It makes sense.

[Archived Post]

I would like to suggest a compromise, we replace rear admiral with Star Smasher Commander PRIME! (the exclamation point is part of the rank, and when spoken is represented by shouting.)

[Archived Post]

It already makes little sense to have Admiralty who don't command multiple ships.

Now you want a title specifically delegated to veteran Captains (but not Rear Admirals) for commanding multiple ships to not fulfill the only purpose of the billet-driven rank? :eek:
.

If it was a title specifically designated for people commanding multiple ships, why are almost all of them Starbase Commanders? And since they already have Admirals doing nothing but the jobs of Captains, so lack of sense is not a very stable argument.

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To clarify what a Commodore is from Naval tradition - here's Herman "I wrote Moby ****" Melville:
This will assuredly be the case, should she ever have occasion to employ large fleets; when she must adopt something like the English plan, and introduce three or four grades of flag-officers, above a Commodore—Admirals, Vice-Admirals, and Rear-Admirals of Squadrons;
source: Herman Melville's White-Jacket: or The World in a Man of War pub. 1850.

Commodore was once an assignment for captains, not an equivalent to Rear Admirals.

Captains do not generally get put directly into Fleet Captain or Commodore assignment upon promotion to Captain. Thus, while they are largely lateral and other captains can potentially serve under a Commodore or Fleet Captain, they're not higher-ranking out of the operational command structure.

Commodore and Fleet Captain are Captains - its just that they occupy different billets or assignments within the operational chain of command. All were originally O-7 paygrade.

The U.S. had Commodores only because they were originally resistant to have Admiralty.

However, the other services were resistant to having 1 star O-7 that was not a flag officer.. So, the Navy briefly had Commodore Admirals instead of Commodores to equalize paygrade issues and flag officer commands.

The only way I can see it making sense in-game is as an situational or duty-specific title (which is why I suggest Fleet Leaders since they're commanding multiple vessels and such).

Senior Captains who are temporarily (or by duty station) put in command of multiple vessels = Commodores.

Does every Captain become a Commodore en-route to becoming an Admiral? No.

There has to be a situational purpose behind it. :)

[Archived Post]

To clarify what a Commodore is from Naval tradition - here's Herman "I wrote Moby ****" Melville:


The only way I can see it making sense in-game is as an situational or duty-specific title (which is why I suggest Fleet Leaders since they're commanding multiple vessels and such).

Senior Captains who are temporarily (or by duty station) put in command of multiple vessels = Commodores.

Does every Captain become a Commodore en-route to becoming an Admiral? No.

There has to be a situational purpose behind it. :)

Thats all fine and dandy, but it was clearly shown that many of the Commodores were just Starbase Commander much like Admirals. (And perhaps a better source than a writer would be great :) )

[Archived Post]

Commodore Matt Decker (http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Matt_Decker) was assigned the command of a single starhip, the USS Constellation.
Commodore Robert Wesley (http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Robert_Wesley) commanded the USS Lexington.

I think that they should allow it to be optional and let the individual player choose to be Commodore then Rear Admiral, or Rear Admiral lower half and then upper half.

I think it is becoming more and more clear that this Commodore issue simply is not going to go away.

[Archived Post]

Personally, I'm not a real "fan" of the Commodore-rank, but it has been there in the series and movies, complete with his own rank pin, and (which is really somewhat annoying) every NPC addressing you with a rank that is made up of four(!) words just sounds ridiculous. Two reasons to have it in STO. None against.

[Archived Post]

And your source on this is...?

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Commodore

Maybe add it as a title, as its never going to be a rank in game.

[Archived Post]

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/CommodoreA non-official, fan-maintained wiki claiming things without citing a source is no source of its own, sorry. When I mean source, I of course am referring to official material, not personal opinion.

The article already has an ongoing discussion (http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Talk:Commodore#Commodore_in_novels) about this, so I expect this speculation will be reverted soon.

Fact: Never once has RALH/RAUH been mentioned in any Trek series or movie, and neither did any Trek series or movie mention that the rank of Commodore would be no more. The logical solution is therefore to just use the latest available canon - and that is the Commodore-rank which has been used in ENT, TOS and TMP.

[Archived Post]

A non-official, fan-maintained wiki claiming things without citing a source is no source of its own, sorry. When I mean source, I of course am referring to official material, not personal opinion.

The article already has an ongoing discussion (http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Talk:Commodore#Commodore_in_novels) about this, so I expect this speculation will be reverted soon.

Fact: Never once has RALH/RAUH been mentioned in any Trek series or movie, and neither did any Trek series or movie mention that the rank of Commodore would be no more. The logical solution is therefore to just use the latest available canon - and that is the Commodore-rank which has been used in ENT, TOS and TMP.

You asked someone for some info and I linked it.

If it was canon at this point it would have been used in DS9, TNG or VOY but never was, that kills your logical argument.

Fact: Commodore is not used in ST any more and will never be a rank in this game, best we can hope for is a title of some kind.

If I'm wrong, please link your credible source :)

[Archived Post]

The US navy doesn't use Commodore in an official capacity does it? I'm fairly certain that Rear Admiral (lower) is used.

they did away with the rank commodore in the late 70s early 80's but ship squadron commanders (rank of CAPT) are called Commodore

as far as Canon.. i cannot recall a single movie or episode that refers to anyone with the rank of RA /uh /lh

I'm 90% certain that after TOS the ONLY references to flag rank is admiral. the only possible exception is the episode where Adm Quiin offers a promotion to Picard and command of the academy.. i cant rememebr if he says I wnat to promote you to admirla or if he says Rear Admiral

in a DS9 episode there is an officer (the sec 31 guy) who has a rank insignia that is a captaisn four buttons ona single bar beneath not the familiar pips in a box. he's never adressed as anything but commander or director IIRC. but the rank insignia indicates a rank between capt and admiral

[Archived Post]

You asked someone for some info and I linked it.I asked for a source, though, not fan-speculation. We have enough of that in this thread already.

If it was canon at this point it would have been used in DS9, TNG or VOY but never was, that kills your logical argument.Wait - because something isn't mentioned anymore it doesn't exist? By that logic, I guess we will have to scrap the Fleet Admiral too, seeing as this rank wasn't mentioned anymore. And while we're at it, let's take out the Andorians as well. :rolleyes:

If I'm wrong, please link your credible source :)The Memory-Alpha article on the rank of Commodore has already been linked, it included a list of Commodores from TOS and TMP - whose articles give you the exact title of the episode where they appeared. This shows that the rank existed. Now show me the episode where it says that this is no longer the case.

[Archived Post]

The bigger underlying problem is the unrealistic approach that STO takes in terms of Admirals.

40 years of Star Trek showed us that if you want to be in on the action, you are a Captain. Admirals are administrators, big picture strategists. Yet, in STO, everyone is a frickin Admiral.

Whatever happened to Kirk's sentiment?

"Don't let them promote you. Don't let them transfer you. Don't let them do anything that takes you off the bridge of that ship because while you're there, you can make a difference."

During all the series, we saw Admirals in a traditional role, serving at Starbases and Starfleet Command, touring around in their flagships, and often times, seen as the menace or advesary of the frontline commander or starship captain. The captains were the ones to be envied and revered.

Yet in STO, Captain was nothing but a brief milestone on your way to a rank which would normally have you at a desk in Starfleet Headquarters or commanding cadets at the Academy.

And in STO, Vice Admirals and Rear Admirals are still conducting away missions in the thick of the fight, still fighting frontline engagements in ships of the line? This doesn't make a lick of sense. Heck, the rules governing a CAPTAIN leaving a starship for away missions were strict enough. I hate to think what the rules were about a VICE ADMIRAL fighting in the trenches!

In my opinion, STO should have level capped at Captain, and the time between ranks should have been significantly increased. Admiralty should have been reserved for the future incase STO ever offered a system like "Battleground:Europe" where players form missions and issue orders (typical duties of an Admiral, think big picture) or it should have been a vanity title for those who have done all there is to do, achieved the most and the hardest to achieve accolades.

But alas, it would seem we are stuck with this ridiculous system now.

I don't think I've ever read anything that I agreed with more. Having all these Admirals running around is horrible, horrible, horrible. Forget bugs - this is the thing that I would like fixing as a matter of top priority. In a way, it's a "conceptual bug". I've written about this before, and most people agreed then too.

[Archived Post]

Hell, not AGAIN. This commodore thread crops up so often it seems to multiply like tribbles.

If its come up so many times before and hasnt changed, i dont think its going to change, which is pretty much the end of it.

Perhaps we simply need a word from CBS. Because most of everyone's arguments whether or not commodore should be a rank is whether canon says so or not.

Which frankly seems quite shortsighted, because it can be that in STO's timeline, whether or not commodore existed circa TNG, starfleet could have just removed it prior 2409.

Maybe thats taking away from canon. But honestly, when it comes to canon, wouldnt you rather argue about stuff like ship design direction or racial characteristics, rather than rank? The commodore rank is hardly an iconic feature of star trek. Especially when it never appeared again post-TOS, regardless if it really did get abolished behind-the-scenes or not.

[Archived Post]

I like how the main argument against the Commodore rank is that it only appeared in TOS and is thus outdated.
But this game has ships and uniforms from that era so why is the title outdated more than them?

[Archived Post]

The fact is that the commodore rank has existed in Star Trek, and very possibly could exist again. There are numerous reasons for this to occur in game and could be anything from there being a need associated with the war effort to some bureaucrat at Star Fleet just admiring the name of the rank. It does not have to be logical, aside from the Vulcans, logic is not an overwhelming mandate of the Federation.

Lateral ranks have existed in militaries in the past and probably will exist in the future. Commodore and Rear Admiral Lower half do not have to be exclusive, both ranks can in fact exist, for whatever in-story reason may be developed, or possibly no in-game explanation at all, not everything needs to be explained.

The fact remains that Commodore did exist in Star Trek, and clearly has many vocal proponents amongst STO subscribers, and I do not think they are going away. There are also those that stand against it. It seems to me that a solution would be to keep the current rank system but allow the option of being a Commodore rather than the lower half of a Rear Admiral.

[Archived Post]

I asked for a source, though, not fan-speculation. We have enough of that in this thread already.

Wait - because something isn't mentioned anymore it doesn't exist? By that logic, I guess we will have to scrap the Fleet Admiral too, seeing as this rank wasn't mentioned anymore. And while we're at it, let's take out the Andorians as well. :rolleyes:

The Memory-Alpha article on the rank of Commodore has already been linked, it included a list of Commodores from TOS and TMP - whose articles give you the exact title of the episode where they appeared. This shows that the rank existed. Now show me the episode where it says that this is no longer the case.

Talk about scarping the barrel for an argument, None of your arguments make any sense but if you keep using the word logical maybe they will lol.

Its clear you don't actually research any of you information or read peoples comments and I find it funny your the only so called ST fan who does not use memory Alpha or the Canon section of the Official site to get there info.

This could be why all your information is wrong or loosely based on fact.
I also never said Commodore was never used in ST, just not in any of the modern series, films.
Maybe apply your Logic to reading :)

You don't watch much ST or you would know a Fleet Admiral was in Star Trek III: The Search for Spock and one was mentioned in the Battle for Wolf 359

Your Andorian comment makes no sense, they have been in ST since TOS.

Also Commodore is a situational title, So again why would it be in STO ;)

[Archived Post]

Its clear you don't actually research any of you information or read peoples comments and I find it funny your the only so called ST fan who does not use memory Alpha or the Canon section of the Official site to get there info.And how do you come to this assumption? FYI, I have already talked about this very Memory Alpha article days ago here (http://forums.startrekonline.com/showpost.php?p=3034036&postcount=475). And Memory Alpha still is not a canon source by itself. The official site has nothing about ranks either, so what are you talking about?

I also never said Commodore was never used in ST, just not in any of the modern series, films. Maybe apply your Logic to reading :)Maybe you want to re-read what I wrote ...

You don't watch much ST or you would know a Fleet Admiral was in Star Trek III: The Search for Spock and one was mentioned in the Battle for Wolf 359When the Fleet Admiral from STIII is enough for you, why isn't the Commodore from STI? And, uhh, the flag officer from the Battle of Wolf 359 was a Vice Admiral.

Your Andorian comment makes no sense, they have been in ST since TOS.Just like the Commodore. So?

Did you not notice how the Andorians have been "forgotten" later on (with a mere two very short appearances in TNG)? Or have you suddenly changed your mind about your initial argument regarding things that have not appeared on screen anymore? Are you simply biased and don't even notice it yourself?

Also Commodore is a situational title, So again why would it be in STO ;)Because it is not a situational title in the Star Trek universe, but a rank with its own insignia.

For someone who claims that I have no clue about the canon you are really missing out on a lot of facts or state things that simply aren't true. :rolleyes:

[Archived Post]

Perhaps we simply need a word from CBS. Because most of everyone's arguments whether or not commodore should be a rank is whether canon says so or not.

How many things has Cryptic wholeheartedly shut down with a flat "No"? The Commodore rank is about the only thing. I'd wager that CBS have flat out refused to approve the title being implemented. I've never seen Cryptic offer the same type of refusal on anything else, even the absurd, which suggests that the roadblock here isn't Cryptic and the continued "struggle" to try and get them to implement it is a pointless waste of time which keeps rearing it's ugly head for no other reason than to choke the forums.

[Archived Post]

The fact that the Commodore issue keeps reemerging indicates that it is not and will not go away. CBS and/or Cryptic will either find a way to accommodate people that want Commodore or this issue will continue to fill the threads.

[Archived Post]

The fact that the Commodore issue keeps reemerging indicates that it is not and will not go away. CBS and/or Cryptic will either find a way to accommodate people that want Commodore or this issue will continue to fill the threads.

Except that the IP is CBS's. The issue not going away doesn't change that, all it does it waste space and clog the forums.

[Archived Post]

The fact that the Commodore issue keeps reemerging indicates that it is not and will not go away. CBS and/or Cryptic will either find a way to accommodate people that want Commodore or this issue will continue to fill the threads.

No. It will more likely be, the commodore thread with resurrect itself to the end of STO's days, without it ever being implemented. As i said, if they havent said they'll even consider it in almost 8 months of this request continuously popping up, its not going to and there's reasons for it that we're not aware of.

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"Dahar Master" as a military rank is even more ridiculous than the whole Commodore/RALH/RAUH issue and it still got into the list - so I doubt it has anything to do with CBS. I kind of think that DLRevan is right, but then again, stranger things have happened. Cryptic also flat out said no to Federation cloaks at first, and look at the game now.

[Archived Post]

Except that the IP is CBS's. The issue not going away doesn't change that, all it does it waste space and clog the forums.

And that is why they should reconsider. But if they don't I guess we will all have to live with clogged forums.No. It will more likely be, the commodore thread with resurrect itself to the end of STO's days, without it ever being implemented. As i said, if they havent said they'll even consider it in almost 8 months of this request continuously popping up, its not going to and there's reasons for it that we're not aware of.

Did you really mean no, or did you mean that there will continue to be Commodore threads?

[Archived Post]

I know that the way that the US Navy has it set up currently is to have the 2 halves of the Rear Admiral rank. However, previously, and can still be the case in times of war, the one star rank has been refered to as Commodore. In TOS, this rank has been called 2 things, Commodore and Fleet Captain.

I think it would make it a little less of a mouth full if RALH/RAUH was changed to Commodore in game and would still be in keeping with canon. Anyone feel the same way?

When was the last time you were placed in command and were able to control a squadron of ships?

Commodore can be used by the US Navy.. But it is reserved for the overall commander of a squadron, wing, or regiment. It is also used as a title and not a rank (rank remains Captain).

LINK (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_(United_States))

The U.S. Navy no longer maintains a rank of Commodore, but the term has survived as a title. Modern-day Commodores in the U.S. Navy are senior Captains in command of Air Wings or Air Groups exclusive of Carrier Air Wings; Destroyer, Cruiser, Amphibious, Mine Countermeasures Squadrons, or Riverine Squadrons; Submarine Squadrons; Coastal Warfare Groups; Special Warfare (SEAL) Groups; Explosive Ordnance Disposal (EOD) Groups; and Naval Construction Regiments. Such officers are referred to, both orally and in correspondence, as "Commodore," but wear the rank insignia of a Captain.

When you can directly control a squadron of ships, a wing of fighters, and/or a regiment of Naval Engineers then you should get to wear the title (but still not get the rank.. Which would remain Captain).

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And that is why they should reconsider. But if they don't I guess we will all have to live with clogged forums.

Or people could, you know, accept it and move on... :rolleyes:

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When was the last time you were placed in command and were able to control a squadron of ships?

Commodore can be used by the US Navy.. But it is reserved for the overall commander of a squadron, wing, or regiment. It is also used as a title and not a rank (rank remains Captain).

LINK (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_(United_States))

The U.S. Navy no longer maintains a rank of Commodore, but the term has survived as a title. Modern-day Commodores in the U.S. Navy are senior Captains in command of Air Wings or Air Groups exclusive of Carrier Air Wings; Destroyer, Cruiser, Amphibious, Mine Countermeasures Squadrons, or Riverine Squadrons; Submarine Squadrons; Coastal Warfare Groups; Special Warfare (SEAL) Groups; Explosive Ordnance Disposal (EOD) Groups; and Naval Construction Regiments. Such officers are referred to, both orally and in correspondence, as "Commodore," but wear the rank insignia of a Captain.

When you can directly control a squadron of ships, a wing of fighters, and/or a regiment of Naval Engineers then you should get to wear the title (but still not get the rank.. Which would remain Captain).

First off, use a better source than wikipedia.

And second off, this game's ranks do not fit with their real life counterparts anyways. When you can point out an Admiral in-game doing things an Admiral, not a Starfleet Captain, would be doing, I'll agree you have a pretty strong argument.

Basically, it all comes down to the fact that the ranks of Star Trek were based on the Naval Ranks, based on. They are not exactly the same because if they were then there is absolutely no reason Commodores would be commanding Starbases in the 23rd Century. And this game already ignores many things for the sake of a "fun game" so why not adding a rank/title?


Or people could, you know, accept it and move on... :rolleyes:

Cryptic has already shown that if enough people want something, anything, it'll pretty much come.

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When you can directly control a squadron of ships, a wing of fighters, and/or a regiment of Naval Engineers then you should get to wear the title (but still not get the rank.. Which would remain Captain).If that were so, we'd all need to stop advancing beyond the rank of Captain.

Starfleet isn't the US Navy. Starfleet Commodores had their own rank insignia (thus obviously were a rank of their own) and often commanded just a single vessel as well. Which would actually make a Commodore in STO more realistic than the "Fleet" Admiral.

And just on a sidenote, the US Navy had the rank of Commodore for some time as well - and it did not require command over a squadron as well. You even had Commodores in the provisions and clothing department of the Navy. And just because the Navy switched, doesn't mean that Starfleet - an invented organization in a fictional setting - has to follow suit. With a delay of several centuries, no less. We're not talking about a retcon, after all.

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And your source on this is...?

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Commodore

There ya go. Even Memory Alpha agrees.

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http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Commodore
There ya go. Even Memory Alpha agrees.

A non-official, fan-maintained wiki claiming things without citing a source is no source of its own, sorry. When I mean source, I of course am referring to official material, not personal opinion.

The article already has an ongoing discussion (http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Talk:Commodore#Commodore_in_novels) about this, so I expect this speculation will be reverted soon.

So if that's really everything the opponents of the Commodore-rank are basing their argument on ...

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Cryptic has already shown that if enough people want something, anything, it'll pretty much come.

That explains why this thing which was mentioned in closed beta several times over is in the game! Wait a minute, it's not! In fact Cryptic flatly said "No" and have done so time and time again something they've pretty much never done outside of the ranking system. Hell, they've even suggested that a switch to controlling your ship from the bridge, something that would require basically a complete reworking of some of the most basic mechanics of the game, isn't entirely off the table... but they've said that Commodore IS.

That should be an indicator that this probably isn't something that is in Cryptic's hands since they've ruled out so very, very little except Commodore. It should also be an indicator of exactly how set in stone this decision is.

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Or people could, you know, accept it and move on... :rolleyes:

Same could be said of Klingon's and their lack of content. The fact is that we are all customers and we are all free to make whatever demands that we wish. Cryptic and CBS can ignore the clammer as is their right and they can in fact start deleting threads as is their right, but until they either concede or start deleting commodore threads people will continue to request it. I doubt that censoring these commodore demands would be met with very much approval.
If they start deleting commodore threads I shall simply switch to e-mails and letter writing.

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Same could be said of Klingon's and their lack of content.

Yes. This is absolutely comparable to one of two factions having a severe content deficit. :rolleyes:

The fact is that we are all customers and we are all free to make whatever demands that we wish.

No, actually we can't. We can make requests. You have no authority to make demands. And since this request has already been made (ad nauseam) and flatly rejected (ad nauseam) for more than ten months it's probably well past time to take the hint...

After a certain point this stops being a request and instead becomes pointless spam.

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And since this request has already been made (ad nauseam) and flatly rejected (ad nauseam) for more than ten months it's probably well past time to take the hint...Like with Federation cloaking devices, right? ;)

I actually agree to an extent regarding the tediousness of this argument, but then again ... fixing the ranking chart shouldn't take no more than a minute. And while they're at it they can fix the Klingon ranks, too.

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Like with Federation cloaking devices, right? ;)

Except that they were never flatly refused.

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As I said until Cryptic comes in here and tells me to stop asking for it I will not stop. I am sorry that bothers you, but the lower halves of rear admirals bothers me. We all have our burdens to bear.

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Except that they were never flatly refused.They were. Back then, it has been stated that maybe they would make a mission where you'd temporarily get a cloaking device.

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They were. Back then, it has been stated that maybe they would make a mission where you'd temporarily get a cloaking device.

So when do you plan on giving up?

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That explains why this thing which was mentioned in closed beta several times over is in the game! Wait a minute, it's not! In fact Cryptic flatly said "No" and have done so time and time again something they've pretty much never done outside of the ranking system. Hell, they've even suggested that a switch to controlling your ship from the bridge, something that would require basically a complete reworking of some of the most basic mechanics of the game, isn't entirely off the table... but they've said that Commodore IS.

That should be an indicator that this probably isn't something that is in Cryptic's hands since they've ruled out so very, very little except Commodore. It should also be an indicator of exactly how set in stone this decision is.

Or their just waiting until people want it enough to pay for it. Wouldn't be that shocking.

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Or their just waiting until people want it enough to pay for it. Wouldn't be that shocking.

My question then would be how much?

And could it come with a big flashing subtitle that says I am not the lower half of a rear admiral?

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So anyways.....

How about if they gave us Commodore title as a reward for completing a weekly episode?

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My question then would be how much?

And could it come with a big flashing subtitle that says I am not the lower half of a rear admiral?

I'm sure when people start wanting it bad enough, enough to pay for it, they'll sell it for a couple bucks.



No, actually we can't. We can make requests. You have no authority to make demands. And since this request has already been made (ad nauseam) and flatly rejected (ad nauseam) for more than ten months it's probably well past time to take the hint...

After a certain point this stops being a request and instead becomes pointless spam.

The difference between demand and request is a very fine line, what one sees as demand, another sees as request.

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I'm sure when people start wanting it bad enough, enough to pay for it, they'll sell it for a couple bucks.
I hope so. I so dislike the idea of being the lower half of a rear admiral.



The difference between demand and request is a very fine line, what one sees as demand, another sees as request.

When it comes to semantics, I ignore it, if that's the best they have got they are already losing.

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First off, use a better source than wikipedia.
....

Perhaps you could provide a link to a better source instead of critisizing the fact that I posted a link while you posted nothing?

Just a thought... ;)

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Perhaps you could provide a link to a better source instead of critisizing the fact that I posted a link while you posted nothing?

Just a thought... ;)

Here is my proof for my assertions about the ranks of Star Trek.

1) Commodores do not just command squadrons, they also command Starbases:

"Court Martial"
"The Menagerie"
"The Ultimate Computer"
"The Deadly Years"
"Arena"

2) Admirals gave orders, had desk jobs, attended diplomatic events, and commanded large fleets in important battles.

"Doctor Bashir, I Presume"
"All Good Things"
"Chain of Command"
"Descent"
"The Die is Cast"
"Inter Arma Silent Leges"


Since both had similar jobs, neither of which is what STO does at those ranks, it is not unreasonable for people to want that rank. Those are Star Trek episodes you can review at your leisure. :cool:

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Debating links is about as silly as debating canon on this issue. Any correlation with existing navies is not absolute, and what has occurred in previous eras, series, and movies, does not exclude the possibility of Commodores in this era or in this game.

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So when do you plan on giving up?Personally? As soon as everybody agrees that the rank should be there 'cos it'd be the canon thing to do. This whole discussion thing is worse than the rank being wrong.

As I'm not roleplaying my character as an Admiral (or a Commodore) it's not that big of a deal to me - I still have Commander set to be my Fed's title. Though I have to say that I find the exceedingly long RALH/RAUH rank somewhat irritating when being talked to by NPCs (a good solution to this would be to have NPCs use our current title instead of the rank).

More important for me is tha Dahar Master issue in the KDF (along with a couple more nitpicks there). But I can understand the players who would like to have the Commodore rank, too.

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Personally? As soon as everybody agrees that the rank should be there 'cos it'd be the canon thing to do. This whole discussion thing is worse than the rank being wrong.

As I'm not roleplaying my character as an Admiral (or a Commodore) it's not that big of a deal to me - I still have Commander set to be my Fed's title. Though I have to say that I find the exceedingly long RALH/RAUH rank somewhat irritating when being talked to by NPCs (a good solution to this would be to have NPCs use our current title instead of the rank).

More important for me is tha Dahar Master issue in the KDF (along with a couple more nitpicks there). But I can understand the players who would like to have the Commodore rank, too.

That is good. Like the tenacity. I just abhor the idea of being the lower half of a rear admiral. Yes I have said it before, but it bears repeating because I really dislike it.

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Here is my proof for my assertions about the ranks of Star Trek.

1) Commodores do not just command squadrons, they also command Starbases:

"Court Martial"
"The Menagerie"
"The Ultimate Computer"
"The Deadly Years"
"Arena"

2) Admirals gave orders, had desk jobs, attended diplomatic events, and commanded large fleets in important battles.

"Doctor Bashir, I Presume"
"All Good Things"
"Chain of Command"
"Descent"
"The Die is Cast"
"Inter Arma Silent Leges"


Since both had similar jobs, neither of which is what STO does at those ranks, it is not unreasonable for people to want that rank. Those are Star Trek episodes you can review at your leisure. :cool:

Well, I am sure this thread will be the one that changes the Devs minds..

Unlike all those threads in Closed Beta...

And unlike all those threads in Open Beta...

And unlike all those threads over the last 7 months since launch...

Yes, this thread will be different and will "force" the Devs will reverse themselves and change the core mechanics of the game... Yep, for sure. ;)

Have fun. :)

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Well, I am sure this thread will be the one that changes the Devs minds..

Unlike all those threads in Closed Beta...

And unlike all those threads in Open Beta...

And unlike all those threads over the last 7 months since launch...

Yes, this thread will be different and will "force" the Devs will reverse themselves and change the core mechanics of the game... Yep, for sure. ;)

Have fun. :)

It may not, but until Cryptic starts shutting us down we are free to discuss our desires for this game.

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It may not, but until Cryptic starts shutting us down we are free to discuss our desires for this game.

I agree.
I do not know nor can I understand why there are those so interested in shutting down, and shutting out discussion of commodore. It obviously has some support or it it would not keep popping back up.

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I agree.
I do not know nor can I understand why there are those so interested in shutting down, and shutting out discussion of commodore. It obviously has some support or it it would not keep popping back up.

It is something only they can answer. If they don't like commodore rank being discussed they probably should not have bumped it so often, but I apreciate them helping keep this toward the front.

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See I dont get it, everyone is asking Crytpic to be Star Trek Canon, then they come out with something like this.



Source: http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Commodore

Now if it was basically phased out around that point, why would it still be around in 2408?

No one listens to this part, everyone ignores it. I've been shooting this at people who have been talking about the Commodore rank for a long time, they just ignore it, thank god cryptic hasn't.

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No one listens to this part, everyone ignores it.Because it is unsourced speculation entered by some fan. Did you not read that article's discussion page? :rolleyes:

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See I dont get it, everyone is asking Crytpic to be Star Trek Canon, then they come out with something like this.



Source: http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Commodore

Now if it was basically phased out around that point, why would it still be around in 2408?


No one listens to this part, everyone ignores it. I've been shooting this at people who have been talking about the Commodore rank for a long time, they just ignore it, thank god cryptic hasn't.


Because it is unsourced speculation entered by some fan. Did you not read that article's discussion page? :rolleyes:

Also because that point is completely invalid in this conversation. Commodore very well could have been phased out at one time, and guess what it can be phased in again. Nothing in that link deals with or begins to deal with the time period of STO.

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Also because that point is completely invalid in this conversation. Commodore very well could have been phased out at one time, and guess what it can be phased in again. Nothing in that link deals with or begins to deal with the time period of STO.

I don't understand the canon argument either. Arguing about the reinstatement of commodore is not a canon issue. Commodores have existed that is canon. They were apparently fazed out, an assumption made due to no appearances of commodore, but even if that assumption is true, there is nothing in canon or that assumption that excludes the possibility of the commodore rank returning.

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If you are going to reach for the meat, why take the ground beef when the steak is available?

Why go for plain ol' "Commodore"?

How about Vice Commodore (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Scouts_(Boy_Scouts_of_America))?

Or Air Commodore (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Commodore) (Space Commodore)?

Or Commodore Admiral (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_(rank))? (My favorite :) )

Or even Commodore-in-Chief (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore-in-Chief)?

Those seem a lot cooler than the boring "Commodore" title... And if you are going to bring back a title that died in TOS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_(Star_Trek)) then it should be "modernised" like those above. ;)

Yay for Commodore Admiral! :)

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Commodore is generally a duty-specific title. You're commanding multiple ships but not at the same level of responsibility as an Admiral (much like a Fleet Captain).

You're not guaranteed promotion to Commodore as it is a lateral promotion based on the billet you serve in - not a vertical promotion.

It was part of the vertical promotion chain but was displaced by the rank of Rear Admiral Lower Half.

The rank of comodore is a rank giveen to another officer of the same rank on the same sship. It's used in order to maintain a clear chain of command. You cannot have two Captains on a ship, so the visiting Captain is given the Commodore title to avoid confusion.

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If you are going to reach for the meat, why take the ground beef when the steak is available?

Why go for plain ol' "Commodore"?

How about Vice Commodore (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Scouts_(Boy_Scouts_of_America))?

Or Air Commodore (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Commodore) (Space Commodore)?

Or Commodore Admiral (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_(rank))? (My favorite :) )

Or even Commodore-in-Chief (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore-in-Chief)?

Those seem a lot cooler than the boring "Commodore" title... And if you are going to bring back a title that died in TOS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_(Star_Trek)) then it should be "modernised" like those above. ;)

Yay for Commodore Admiral! :)

I suppose that would be fine if there is significant requests for such ranks. Any body want the ranks proposed by Asakara?

cricket noises

There have been significant requests for the Commodore rank.

The rank of comodore is a rank giveen to another officer of the same rank on the same sship. It's used in order to maintain a clear chain of command. You cannot have two Captains on a ship, so the visiting Captain is given the Commodore title to avoid confusion.

This is not how it has been handled in StarFleet in the past, and I have never heard of this as a tradition used elsewhere either.

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I suppose that would be fine if there is significant requests for such ranks. Any body want the ranks proposed by Asakara?

cricket noises

no...sorry, none really speak to me as much as plain Ole Admiral does... ;)

There have been significant requests for the Commodore rank.

yes there has, and there aslo has been the statement from cryptic there is no plan to change the rank system.
the best answer proponents of the rank got was a "possible" title added to the list of ones you can have.

This is not how it has been handled in StarFleet in the past, and I have never heard of this as a tradition used elsewhere either.

yes, the last part was not traditionnor is that anywhere near the reality of why commodore was even used at a given time in history.

point is, this debate rages on and on, people citing web pages, people citing naval history and tradition, some based off US, others based of Europian navies.

there is no firm stance that it HAS to bein the game. if cryptic sees fit to introduce a titel you could wear along with costume ranks, then good on them. but i highly doubt they will revamp the whole rank structue at this time, if ever.

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And if you are going to bring back a title that died in TOS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_(Star_Trek)) then it should be "modernised" like those above. ;)Except that the rank didn't die.

Once more: unsourced fan-speculation is still speculation, even if you slap it onto a wiki that should deal in canon information only.

but i highly doubt they will revamp the whole rank structue at this time, if ever.Which is bad, since the Klingon ranks are wrong as well. "Dahar Master" being a military rank? And higher than a General? Even though we had a Dahar Master serving under Martok in DS9? Puh-leeze.

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I suppose that would be fine if there is significant requests for such ranks. Any body want the ranks proposed by Asakara?

cricket noises
no...sorry, none really speak to me as much as plain Ole Admiral does... ;)

There have been significant requests for the Commodore rank.

yes there has, and there aslo has been the statement from cryptic there is no plan to change the rank system.
the best answer proponents of the rank got was a "possible" title added to the list of ones you can have.


This is not how it has been handled in StarFleet in the past, and I have never heard of this as a tradition used elsewhere either.

yes, the last part was not traditionnor is that anywhere near the reality of why commodore was even used at a given time in history.

point is, this debate rages on and on, people citing web pages, people citing naval history and tradition, some based off US, others based of Europian navies.

there is no firm stance that it HAS to bein the game. if cryptic sees fit to introduce a titel you could wear along with costume ranks, then good on them. but i highly doubt they will revamp the whole rank structue at this time, if ever.

I am not requesting or demanding restructuring of the entire rank system. What I would like to see is the option of being commodore instead of the lower half of a rear admiral. You know let those that wish to be commodore be commodores, those that wish to be lower half, let them be a lower half.

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What I would like to see is the option of being commodore instead of the lower half of a rear admiral. You know let those that wish to be commodore be commodores, those that wish to be lower half, let them be a lower half.Though the NPCs would also need to adapt to this option. Them addressing you with a rank consisting of more than 20 characters just sounds weird.

Of course I'd very much like NPCs to address the player by his currently selected title anyways! For example, my Fed still has the title and rank pins of a Commander, even though being RAUH in game terms. It'd be supercool if the game would acknowledge characters preferring to stay on a certain rank by just addressing them by their currently selected title, if it is different from the game rank.

I'm sure it would also feel way more appropriate for our Orion and Nausicaan members if they would be addressed with their Raider-title instead of a military rank. :D

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Though the NPCs would also need to adapt to this option. Them addressing you with a rank consisting of more than 20 characters just sounds weird.

what?! It is totally natural for such long title to be used in normal conversation. I can see some of the iconic movie quotes now:

'Do you expect me to talk?'

'No, no Mr. James Richard Noah Bond. I expect you to DIE!'

Really flows off the tongue, doncha think? :eek:

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I just hate being called the lower half of anything, it sounds suspiciously like an insult.:)

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I suppose that would be fine if there is significant requests for such ranks. Any body want the ranks proposed by Asakara?

cricket noises

There have been significant requests for the Commodore rank.



This is not how it has been handled in StarFleet in the past, and I have never heard of this as a tradition used elsewhere either.

Sorry I should have been more clear. That is how the US Navy handles it. Commodore is not used anymore except in the way I described.

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Sorry I should have been more clear. That is how the US Navy handles it. Commodore is not used anymore except in the way I described.

I was under the impression that the US Navy currently used the term Commodore to denote a Captain commanding a squadron of vessels.

Beyond that I am unsure of what it has to do with STO bringing back the rank. it would appear that there are enough requests for it to justify having it at least as an option. I would not rework the entire rank structure for it, but having it as an option does seem to be worth pursuing.

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No one listens to this part, everyone ignores it. I've been shooting this at people who have been talking about the Commodore rank for a long time, they just ignore it, thank god cryptic hasn't.

Except that the Constitution class ships AND half the uniform types in game had been phased out, yet both are present in game.

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Except that the Constitution class ships AND half the uniform types in game had been phased out, yet both are present in game.Unlike the rank of Commodore, which was never phased out in Starfleet. If anyone has proof for the contrary, please list the name of the episode and I'll gladly look it up, just in case that I've missed something.

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I was under the impression that the US Navy currently used the term Commodore to denote a Captain commanding a squadron of vessels.
Beyond that I am unsure of what it has to do with STO bringing back the rank. it would appear that there are enough requests for it to justify having it at least as an option. I would not rework the entire rank structure for it, but having it as an option does seem to be worth pursuing.

Nope, they use Rear admiral now. Commodore is an honorary title used the way I stated. However I wouldn't mind it in game. Not sure how they would implement it now though.:)
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_(United_States)

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Unlike the rank of Commodore, which was never phased out in Starfleet. If anyone has proof for the contrary, please list the name of the episode and I'll gladly look it up, just in case that I've missed something.

I was merely pointing out that IF it had been phased out, the argument its too outdated is a fallacy.

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Nope, they use Rear admiral now. Commodore is an honorary title used the way I stated. However I wouldn't mind it in game. Not sure how they would implement it now though.:)
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_(United_States)


Hitting your link then following the link to Commodore US Navy got me to this:

The U.S. Navy no longer maintains a rank of Commodore, but the term has survived as a title. Modern-day Commodores in the U.S. Navy are senior Captains in command of Air Wings or Air Groups exclusive of Carrier Air Wings; Destroyer, Cruiser, Amphibious, Mine Countermeasures Squadrons, or Riverine Squadrons; Submarine Squadrons; Coastal Warfare Groups; Special Warfare (SEAL) Groups; Explosive Ordnance Disposal (EOD) Groups; and Naval Construction Regiments. Such officers are referred to, both orally and in correspondence, as "Commodore," but wear the rank insignia of a Captain.[1] Such officers also rate a blue and white broad pennant, known as a command pennant, which is normally flown from their headquarters facilities ashore or from ships on which they are embarked. This swallow-tailed pennant has a white field bounded by two horizontal blue stripes, with the numerical designation or the initials of the command title in blue centered on the white field.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_(United_States)

Which I believe is closer to what I said than what you said. No biggy, we both would like to see it in game.

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Hitting your link then following the link to Commodore US Navy got me to this:

The U.S. Navy no longer maintains a rank of Commodore, but the term has survived as a title. Modern-day Commodores in the U.S. Navy are senior Captains in command of Air Wings or Air Groups exclusive of Carrier Air Wings; Destroyer, Cruiser, Amphibious, Mine Countermeasures Squadrons, or Riverine Squadrons; Submarine Squadrons; Coastal Warfare Groups; Special Warfare (SEAL) Groups; Explosive Ordnance Disposal (EOD) Groups; and Naval Construction Regiments. Such officers are referred to, both orally and in correspondence, as "Commodore," but wear the rank insignia of a Captain.[1] Such officers also rate a blue and white broad pennant, known as a command pennant, which is normally flown from their headquarters facilities ashore or from ships on which they are embarked. This swallow-tailed pennant has a white field bounded by two horizontal blue stripes, with the numerical designation or the initials of the command title in blue centered on the white field.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_(United_States)

Which I believe is closer to what I said than what you said. No biggy, we both would like to see it in game.


Why do we keep going to discussions about current military? It does not matter, do we worry about ranks within the Roman legions when considering ranks of today?

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Why do we keep going to discussions about current military? It does not matter, do we worry about ranks within the Roman legions when considering ranks of today?

I do not know. Probably for the same reason that people claim that the commodore rank was phased out of StarFleet without realizing that even if that is true nothing prevents it from being reintroduced.

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I was merely pointing out that IF it had been phased out, the argument its too outdated is a fallacy.I know, I know - I just think that even considering this speculation to be true is already like giving up on ground we don't have to. :D

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I know, I know - I just think that even considering this speculation to be true is already like giving up on ground we don't have to. :D

I can see your point, fight them at every step, but I see no harm in simply highlighting the fact that doing away with Commodore during TNG does not exclude the possibility of the rank being reinstated during the time of STO.

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No, please don't set commodore as a rank. Number 1 reason is: It's only used in one of the series, and aas I have understood other post about this, it's only used in one episode. Number 2 is: and don't get offended, but it sounds silly.

If they have to implement it, make it a optional. I don't want to be called Commodore, i think Rear Admiral sounds better.


Please don't start a flaming war over my comment. It's just my opinion.

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They should put in Lt. Junior grade between ensign and Lt. That's canon. And if they did that, i could get my Prometheus ship at Captain rank instead of RA. :D;)

This i do agree with.

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No, please don't set commodore as a rank. Number 1 reason is: It's only used in one of the series, and aas I have understood other post about this, it's only used in one episode.It is also used in the motion picture. And actually, there were a lot of Commodores in TOS.

Number 2 is: and don't get offended, but it sounds silly. [...] I don't want to be called Commodore, i think Rear Admiral sounds better.Hmm, but you will be called "Rear Admiral Lower Half", not just "Rear Admiral". In fact, you will never be called "Rear Admiral", as the next rank will be "Rear Admiral Upper Half". With a Commodore, you'd at least have a "real" RAdm title without these silly appendages.

Just to clarify. =)

They should put in Lt. Junior grade between ensign and Lt. That's canon.I think the problem is that all ranks in all factions need to be equal, so that a UFP Captain = KDF Captain etc. As it is, we sadly already have way more Klingon ranks than there should be, as the KDF isn't as "inflated" as Starfleet when it comes to hierarchy. Cryptic already had to come up with lots of silly things like making the Dahar Master a military rank.

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I just cannot understand why anybody would want to be the lower half of anything. Being the lower half of a rear admiral just seems excessively anal.

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I just cannot understand why anybody would want to be the lower half of anything. Being the lower half of a rear admiral just seems excessively anal.
There are a lot of RALH in the US Navy that might disagree with you. :)

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I would so make a bridge character and name him Commodore Six of Four....would be so epic

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There are a lot of RALH in the US Navy that might disagree with you. :)Only because they don't get addressed with their full rank all the time, like in STO. :D

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A non-official, fan-maintained wiki claiming things without citing a source is no source of its own, sorry. When I mean source, I of course am referring to official material, not personal opinion.

The article already has an ongoing discussion (http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Talk:Commodore#Commodore_in_novels) about this, so I expect this speculation will be reverted soon.

Fact: Never once has RALH/RAUH been mentioned in any Trek series or movie, and neither did any Trek series or movie mention that the rank of Commodore would be no more. The logical solution is therefore to just use the latest available canon - and that is the Commodore-rank which has been used in ENT, TOS and TMP.

Commodere has never been used in Star Trek Enterprise.

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Commodere has never been used in Star Trek Enterprise.Actually, it was -> http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/First_Flight_%28episode%29

Forrest was a Commodore.

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Personally? As soon as everybody agrees that the rank should be there 'cos it'd be the canon thing to do. This whole discussion thing is worse than the rank being wrong.

As I'm not roleplaying my character as an Admiral (or a Commodore) it's not that big of a deal to me - I still have Commander set to be my Fed's title. Though I have to say that I find the exceedingly long RALH/RAUH rank somewhat irritating when being talked to by NPCs (a good solution to this would be to have NPCs use our current title instead of the rank).

More important for me is tha Dahar Master issue in the KDF (along with a couple more nitpicks there). But I can understand the players who would like to have the Commodore rank, too.

There is one thing that is more "irritating". And that is when you are federation officer and fights the klingons with titles as "ensign officer". That is silly. But I don't see any forum posts about that. Why is that? There are many things in this game that I could be angry at, but I'm not. Over-all this is a fantastic game, and here we are trowing post after other players and at Cryptic.
Remeber that without Cryptic there wouldn't been a game like this. Star Trek would have been dead in the game universe.

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Actually, there were a lot of forum posts about this back in the days of beta. And I agree. Whilst the story makes sense in putting you in command even whilst being just an Ensign, you should get promoted to Lieutenant as it is made permanent (i.e. after the conclusion of the tutorial).
I suspect it's not much of a topic nowadays because you get promoted to Lt very fast anyways.

Also, don't get this wrong. I'm sure we all love this game - else we would just move on instead of putting effort into attempts to improve it further. The names of the ranks are easily fixed, and Commodore is not the only nitpick some people have with the current chart. It's a minor detail that can be addressed by the developer changing a line in a file. Mere minutes of work (the meetings about this topic would be longer than the actual change) - hence the hope that this can be done.

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Unlike the rank of Commodore, which was never phased out in Starfleet. If anyone has proof for the contrary, please list the name of the episode and I'll gladly look it up, just in case that I've missed something.

And the title was never used after TOS, so what proof do you have that it still exists?

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Actually, it was -> http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/First_Flight_%28episode%29

Forrest was a Commodore.

No, he was an Admiral. And when did you begin to agree that this is a good source? Or do you just use it when it agrees with you?

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Wow this Thread has some leg's.
Commodore Sopek of the U.S.S. Lightning/Vigilant Class Escort.
Has a nice ring to it don't ya think :)

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No, he was an Admiral. And when did you begin to agree that this is a good source? Or do you just use it when it agrees with you?

Actually, there is a flashback scene where Forrest is a Commodore, and Archer is a Commander.

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And the title was never used after TOS, so what proof do you have that it still exists?And TMP. I don't have any proof that it still exists, but neither is there any proof that it is gone. In my book, something that is established remains that way until revoked/overwritten, and this has not happened.

I mean, we could also argue that the rank of Captain might not exist anymore in this time. Same logic.

No, he was an Admiral.He got promoted to Admiral. Before that, he was a Commodore.

And when did you begin to agree that this is a good source? Or do you just use it when it agrees with you?Memory Alpha still isn't a source. It's an index. When Memory Alpha lists an episode or a movie as a source (as in this case), that's when you can take something there for being true.

So, as soon as anyone can show me an episode where one of the characters mentions that the rank of Commodore is no more, I'll drop it immediately. :P

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Wow this Thread has some leg's.
Commodore Sopek of the U.S.S. Lightning/Vigilant Class Escort.
Has a nice ring to it don't ya think :)

Even better, my new letter head "From the Ready Room of Commodore Sopek V'Tor
"Vigilant Class Escort/U.S.S Lightning" / First to Fight!!!:cool:

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I have seen that episode over 5 times, maybe even 10. I know for a fact that Admiral Forrest is never being adressed by the the rank of Commodore.

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I have seen that episode over 5 times, maybe even 10. I know for a fact that Admiral Forrest is never being adressed by the the rank of Commodore.

Um, then you might want to watch it again. When Archer is telling T'Pol about the NX program:

ARCHER: (our of uniform) Sorry I'm late, Commodore. I came straight from the test bay.
FORREST: At ease, Commander. I heard your got the warp reactor up to ninety percent today.

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If STO was capped out at Captain, people would then be complaining about not being able to achieve a higher rank.

Is it really that hard to suspend your disbelief a bit in regards to a bunch of RA and VA's running around the game? If it is, then it seems you want more of a Star Trek simulator, which would probably get boring after the novelty wears off. I mean if it was like that in the game, you would probably be running patrol and escort missions in some backwater system for 90% of the game until you reach a higher rank where Starfleet would judge that you're competant enough not to screw up an important mission. Then the story episodes begin.

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I've been complaining about the "Rear Admiral" title versus Commodore since launch. The Star Trek alti-verse has used the Commodore (or, rarely, Fleet Captain) title throughout the entirety of its history. I find it unfathomable that Cryptic insists on denying players the Commodore rank, especially after adding the RA, "Upper Half" rank (talk about an ungainly, undignified mouthful).

Cryptic, please rename the Rear Admiral, Lower Half rank to the traditional Star Trek rank of Commodore and make the "Upper Half" the only RA rank in STO. The Trek alti-verse and STO are not the USN, NATO, or any other contemporary military organization and, therefore, fleet ranks should not be slaved to some "real world" equivalency.

At the VERY LEAST, make Commodore an optional costume Title for players reaching RA, LH. This would be a simple solution and would satisfy most players.

No however its cannon!!! But hell why not give a commodore title or something for those who want it

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No however its cannon!!! But hell why not give a commodore title or something for those who want it

Actually it would be nice for them to offer a Commodore title and a rank insignia, seeing as you can earn a Chief rank insignia you should be able to do the same for Commodore.

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Is it really that hard to suspend your disbelief a bit in regards to a bunch of RA and VA's running around the game? If it is, then it seems you want more of a Star Trek simulator, which would probably get boring after the novelty wears off.Just like the Admiral rank will get boring after the novelty wears off, eh? :D

But really, this thread isn't about capping at Captain (though, personally, I'd like that - seeing that being an Admiral/General in STO gives you nothing except for a fancy title), it's about the ranks of Commodore vs Rear Admiral Lower Half. A purely aesthetical question. Well, and one of canonicity.

And I know lots of Star Trek "simulators" where you didn't become Admiral or General. Yet none of them were boring. There is a sweet spot of balance between perpetual epicness (which then gets old fast) and gritty realism. Hitting this spot, and realizing that a story needs a few "downs" to have noticeable heights, is the art of making games. And no, I'm not referring to scrubbing the deck when I'm talking about downs. But it is a fact that nothing can get better indefinitively.

It's all about the carrot and the stick. You could say I am advocating a "cooldown for epicness".

Actually it would be nice for them to offer a Commodore title and a rank insignia, seeing as you can earn a Chief rank insignia you should be able to do the same for Commodore.Um, wouldn't a Commodore's insignia be the same what the RALH currently has? Except for the name it's the same thing, after all.

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And I know lots of Star Trek "simulators" where you didn't become Admiral or General. Yet none of them were boring. There is a sweet spot of balance between perpetual epicness (which then gets old fast) and gritty realism. Hitting this spot, and realizing that a story needs a few "downs" to have noticeable heights, is the art of making games. And no, I'm not referring to scrubbing the deck when I'm talking about downs. But it is a fact that nothing can get better indefinitively.

It's all about the carrot and the stick. You could say I am advocating a "cooldown for epicness".

Um, wouldn't a Commodore's insignia be the same what the RALH currently has? Except for the name it's the same thing, after all.

I can see where you're coming from, I tend to think of this on being more of a problem with MMOs in general though. I also think it would be walking a very fine line between taking a more "realistic" Trek approach to the game or making the content too boring. That's just me though.

I'm indifferent to adding Commodore either way. I think adding it as a title would be the best way to go about it, and should satisfy people who want it.

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I can see where you're coming from, I tend to think of this on being more of a problem with MMOs in general though.Aye, it is - nowadays, at least. And to be honest, I feel as if an approach like that often "taints" a perfectly good game for people like me. Not sure if this is because of my preferences being too exotic for today's market, or because it has become generally accepted that people "burn" through games a lot faster than they used to.

Worth reading: http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/?p=4423#9e050
Makes you think. :/

I think adding it as a title would be the best way to go about it, and should satisfy people who want it.I believe the main problem is that the NPCs keep referring to people by their full rank as present in the chart, and in case of the RALH/RAUH this really sounds weird.

I think if NPCs would address the player character by their currently selected title instead of current rank, a lot of people would be satisfied already - even without the addition of a title. They could just set their title to "Captain" and be done with it. This would also be appreciated by other players who would wish their character to be "stuck" on a certain rank. For example, I'm still roleplaying my RAUH-Fed as a Commander, complete with matching rank pins.

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Um, wouldn't a Commodore's insignia be the same what the RALH currently has? Except for the name it's the same thing, after all.

It would depend really, the reason I recommend adding a different rank insignia is because during the 2350's to 2360's (http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Starfleet_ranks#Comparative_rank_tables) there is a RALH listed with no commodore, so rather than rewrite canon why not make room for both? Make them both distinct, but roughly equal.

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It would depend really, the reason I recommend adding a different rank insignia is because during the 2350's to 2360's (http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Starfleet_ranks#Comparative_rank_tables) there is a RALH listed with no commodore, so rather than rewrite canon why not make room for both? Make them both distinct, but roughly equal.I wouldn't be so sure that this list is actually correct. On-screen, we have never seen the Rear Admiral being split into lower and upper half. The people who advocate these ranks only do so because of the US Navy, but I fail to see why this should affect Starfleet.

We would end up "rewriting canon" either way by making two ranks out of one - even if the Commodore was changed to RALH (which it wasn't), both ranks held the same level of authority in the hierarchy.

And besides, what would you suggest for a Commodore? It could only be five pins or a square with no pin. Neither option "feels" right - but then again, that's just my opinion. :D

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I wouldn't be so sure that this list is actually correct. On-screen, we have never seen the Rear Admiral being split into lower and upper half. The people who advocate these ranks only do so because of the US Navy, but I fail to see why this should affect Starfleet.

We would end up "rewriting canon" either way by making two ranks out of one - even if the Commodore was changed to RALH (which it wasn't), both ranks held the same level of authority in the hierarchy.

And besides, how would you make a Commodore's rank insignia look different. There is not much room for alterations, except maybe when you use the golden square without a pin in the middle. But that might look strange. :D

Well if you look at the three RA's I am linking to you will see two that are considered RALH's and one that is considered an RA and two of them are from the same episode - Conspiracy.

Jameson (http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Mark_Jameson)
Quinn (http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Gregory_Quinn)
Savar (http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Savar)

Now you'll note the two listed as RALH's have a different insignia from the one listed as RA.

The problem with going by on screen dialouge in this case is that any one with the Rank of Rear Admiral should always be addressed as Admiral unless there is a specific reason to discuss their actual rank grade. So there is little to know reason to call them anything but Admiral regardless of if the are an RA or an RALH.

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Makes you think. :/

Sounds like someone who's bitter that MMO's have become mainstream and not limited to those who want to grind for hours a day to get a slight upgrade to their weapon.

I think if NPCs would address the player character by their currently selected title instead of current rank, a lot of people would be satisfied already - even without the addition of a title.

It was mentioned elsewhere that the Dev's were looking at having all NPC's address you by title not rank. I know myself I'd prefer that too. The only reason I'd want to be an Admiral in this game, is because of the ship you get at that rank.

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The problem with going by on screen dialouge in this case is that any one with the Rank of Rear Admiral should always be addressed as Admiral unless there is a specific reason to discuss their actual rank grade. So there is little to know reason to call them anything but Admiral regardless of if the are an RA or an RALH.Hmmh, well, the US Navy also had the rank of "Commodore Admiral". :D Could also be a simple costume error - but somehow I feel that, even though I still don't believe in this supposed change, evidence have turned against me. Good find.

Sounds like someone who's bitter that MMO's have become mainstream and not limited to those who want to grind for hours a day to get a slight upgrade to their weapon.Heh. Actually, I think hourless grind for miniscule upgrades is that which describes most modern MMOs best. "Back in the days" there was a lot more going on in terms of social interaction, simply because people weren't captivated by a "hunt for phat l00tz", as is so common nowadays. Just look at the complex societies spawned on the Ultima Online servers, which still exist to this very day.

Yeah, I'm a little bitter, because I often look at modern day MMOs and then compare them to what was possible elsewhere, and how a game could be so much more complex. I'm probably somewhat spoiled by numerous scripts from UO freeshards and NWN persistent worlds. There, you were living a life. You were able to shape a part of the world by your actions. Endgame content of most modern MMOs, however, usually focuses on raiding some overhyped boss again and again and again.

It was mentioned elsewhere that the Dev's were looking at having all NPC's address you by title not rank. I know myself I'd prefer that too. The only reason I'd want to be an Admiral in this game, is because of the ship you get at that rank.Really? That would be cool. Thanks for the info!

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Hmmh, well, the US Navy also had the rank of "Commodore Admiral". :D Could also be a simple costume error - but somehow I feel that, even though I still don't believe in this supposed change, evidence have turned against me. Good find.

It could be a simple costume error, Trek is notorious for those. I personally do not have a horse in this race, as I don't care if I'm called Admiral or Commodore, I just care that the gameplay reflect such a prestigious rank and based on the Dstahl Priority One interview it seems like they are considering this for when they bump the level cap up.

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"Dahar Master" as a military rank is even more ridiculous than the whole Commodore/RALH/RAUH issue and it still got into the list - so I doubt it has anything to do with CBS. I

Yeah, never quite understood this.

Dahar Masters were the equivalent of tenured professors or tribal chiefs. They were a title reserved for a master warrior who would then pass his experience on to future warriors. It was iconic and symbolic, but it had NOTHING to do with the KDF.

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NWN persistent worlds. There, you were living a life.!

That I understand I was part of the first real persistent world for NWN from bioware, as a DM and player, and I know what you mean. Most nights I'd play for a hour or two and seldom ever go out of my house. Well in this case it was a converted barn...

So I know what you mean about lack of socialization. In CoH I was part of a very fun SG and even though we didn't spend a ton of time playing together, we always were chatting.

That kind of thing isn't really around anymore it seems.

But what I got from the article you linked... I'll admit I skimmed it a bit, the author was upset because there's no challenge anymore, and things should still be like they were in EQ... Which means endless grinds of common spawns hoping that after 6 hours you might finally get the mob you need that has a % chance of dropping the item you want. But you couldn't kill those by yourself so you had to be with a group of 6 or so other people, all who most likely wanted that same item...

I had more to say but that's getting fairly OT. If you want to however, send me a PM with the NWN Pworlds you played maybe we played the same ones.

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I think that the same rank insignia could be used for the lower half of rear admirals and commodores. I see commodore as an optional rank title in lieu of RALH.

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The rank of commodore was used by Starfleet until at least the 2270s

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And it can return in 2409.

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I'd say the argument would mean more once we have the ability to field more than 1 ship under our command. The other option would be to make this a provisional title unlocked by fleet leaders. I know the eventual title of fleet admiral will be given, of course do that and people will complain that they can't get the title because they don't have a fleet to start *sigh*

*EDIT: It is my intention this be a title and not an official 'rank' in game. That should be an easier unlock then adding in a whole separate leveling mechanic*

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Commodore is a title (not rank) given to commanders of squadrons of ships (and in TOS Starfleet, the commander of a space station as well)

Once we can command a squadron of ships (which may happen) or can command a star base (which probably will not happen except for player fleets) I would fully support the commodore title (not rank). :)

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Commodore is a title (not rank) given to commanders of squadrons of ships (and in TOS Starfleet, the commander of a space station as well)It has been a rank in Starfleet, complete with its own rank insigna. You also had Commodores who only showed up in a single ship - just like you had Admirals showing up in a single ship (like Kirk).

Once again, Starfleet isn't the US Navy.

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It has been a rank in Starfleet, complete with its own rank insigna. You also had Commodores who only showed up in a single ship - just like you had Admirals showing up in a single ship (like Kirk).

Once again, Starfleet isn't the US Navy.

But its based off the US navy...by a guy who served in the Air Force grant you, but still patterned on the US Navy. So far I have to say we probably won't be seeing either anytime soon, since as I think about it, I don't recall any dev response yea or nay to the issue and these threads seem to appear about every couple months. If my memory is failing me on a dev response, by all means remind me.

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But its based off the US navy...by a guy who served in the Air Force grant you, but still patterned on the US Navy.Yeah, but that guy still did the Commodore as a rank. ENT and its United Earth Starfleet, the predecessor to the TOS-era Starfleet, used the Commodore-rank as well.

Keep in mind that there was a time when the Commodore was a USN-rank, too. It all boils down to exactly what year you are looking at a single real life nation's real life military for comparison - and seeing that we're talking about a fictional organization encompassing multiple worlds, that (in the setting) has no connection to the USN at all, this is purely "out of character".
Changing Starfleet's rank system just because the USN changed theirs is entirely based on meta-knowledge. What would be the UFP's reason for that change, after all? It's an entirely different situation than the reasons for the USN.

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But its based off the US navy...by a guy who served in the Air Force grant you, but still patterned on the US Navy. So far I have to say we probably won't be seeing either anytime soon, since as I think about it, I don't recall any dev response yea or nay to the issue and these threads seem to appear about every couple months. If my memory is failing me on a dev response, by all means remind me.

there was a dev resonse somewhere in all these "commodor" threads that offered a hint they "may" decide to later add the title for people who want it. but not as a rank, just a title.

since then no mention of it has come around again.

this argument is almost as old as dirt itself. and while i personally dont see the need for it, not to mention the dev time it would take to recode many aspects of the game, if it were to happen, i would not be upset. i just dont see the justification to want it in the game. title only may be the best people get if they want this.

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Yeah, but that guy still did the Commodore as a rank. ENT and its United Earth Starfleet, the predecessor to the TOS-era Starfleet, used the Commodore-rank as well.

Keep in mind that there was a time when the Commodore was a USN-rank, too. It all boils down to exactly what year you are looking at a single real life nation's real life military for comparison - and seeing that we're talking about a fictional organization encompassing multiple worlds, that (in the setting) has no connection to the USN at all, this is purely "out of character".
Changing Starfleet's rank system just because the USN changed theirs is entirely based on meta-knowledge. What would be the UFP's reason for that change, after all? It's an entirely different situation than the reasons for the USN.

As its been argued before it all comes down to he show producers wanting to keep things in line with 'the way things are done now' in the US Navy. They did away with Commodore as a rank/title in favor of RALH and as such, that's where we are. Don't get me wrong I would find it really keen to see it back, considering the current state of affairs with resources stretched thin and competent officers in short supply, it would make sense to me to reinstate a system where a captain could have what amounted to sector command of a number of ships, which would allow for the reuse of the title. The only down side to it is at present, noone is really in charge of multiple starships. The closest we have would be the leaders of player fleets. Which is why I proposed allowing the leaders of fleets to use it as a title.

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As its been argued before it all comes down to he show producers wanting to keep things in line with 'the way things are done now' in the US Navy.Which they did away with for Enterprise again. Maybe for the sake of continuity? But that would negate the reason for the later change, too.

it would make sense to me to reinstate a system where a captain could have what amounted to sector command of a number of ships, which would allow for the reuse of the title.But it has never been a title within Starfleet to begin with (Picard was still addressed as Captain in "Redemption", for example, despite commanding a squadron) - it'd be an entirely new idea that would turn an old rank with its own insignia into a new title.

But, as stated before, if the devs are really working on a fix that lets NPCs refer to you by a title instead of rank, then the whole debate probably looses some of its importance. Personally I just find it quite ridiculous that my Fed is being addressed with a rank consisting of four words. It doesn't look good in the character profile, too. A sequence of Commodore -> Rear Admiral -> Vice Admiral would sound more "natural", but that's just my opinion. Splitting a rank into two halves must be one of the most silly things the USN ever did - even worse than the rank of "Commodore Admiral" they had before the RALH.

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These endless arguements about the rank/title will never end. If we can have USELESS titles like Redoubtable and Dauntless (?) then why not an actual title that is useful like Commodore? Sell it on C-store, make it a quest prize, something! Clearly it is wanted for people to STILL be talking about it! You don't see any threads on "Why no Dauntless" threads..... lol

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These endless arguements about the ranl/title will never end. If we can have USELESS titles like Redoubtable and Dauntless (?) then why not an actual title that is useful like Commodore? Sell it on C-store, make it a quest prize, something! Clearly it is wanted for people to STILL be talking about it! You don't see any threads on "Why no Dauntless" threads..... lol

who uses Dauntless?

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I think the whole arguement about "Commodore" and the proponents of the addition of Commodore to the game, need to take a step back, look at what is important, and find a way to convince the devs to add this in.

Personally, I think the way to do that is to stop asking for Commodore as a rank, and instead push the agenda for adding Commodore (and Fleet Captain) to the "Titles" list.

I see it being no different than "Lieutentant, J.G." becoming available as a Title when your character hits the rank of Lieutentant. The devs could do the same thing with Commodore and Fleet Captain. I think we've established well enough by now that Rear Admiral, Lower Half is the canon-correct name for the first rank beyond Captain in the 24th and 25th Century. We have also established that Commodore and Fleet Captain have been used in canon before, though it was mostly tied to the TOS era.

To me, that suggests that Commodore and Fleet Captain, should be titles, and nothing more. It gives people the chance to have those titles for their characters, without putting in nearly as much work as it would take to change a rank.

Furthermore, when Cryptic gets the coding done for "Title Recognition" with the NPCs, then the NPCs will address you how you prefer to be addressed, and if we can get Commodore and Fleet Captain into the game as titles, then it won't really matter at all what the actual rank is called, right?

So I would ask all the proponents of "Commodore" and "Fleet Captain" to consider not using the word "rank" in their arguments, and instead focus on title. And I would also suggest that we stop the never-ending banter back and forth between "US Navy vs Star Trek" and instead look at this as nothing more than a preference in regards to how our character is addressed.

There is no reason these 2 titles shouldn't be in the game. It would be a shame to see them not be introduced because the two sides can't find a sufficient compromise on what amounts to a "6 in one hand, half dozen in the other" argument.

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Might be a personal preference, but I don't really see why Commodore should be used alongside RALH. It has never been a title in ST, it was always a rank. It was not even used as a title when you had Captains in command of squadrons.

If it has been abolished, then so be it. But in this case, have the NPCs just address characters as Rear Admiral - or even better, Admiral, like in the one and only occasion a RALH actually showed up. Nobody would address someone with the full name of the rank. ;)

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Might be a personal preference, but I don't really see why Commodore should be used alongside RALH. It has never been a title in ST, it was always a rank. It was not even used as a title when you had Captains in command of squadrons.

If it has been abolished, then so be it. But in this case, have the NPCs just address characters as Rear Admiral - or even better, Admiral, like in the one and only occasion a RALH actually showed up. Nobody would address someone with the full name of the rank. ;)

I understand where you are coming from, but consider this:

Lieutentant J.G. WAS a canon rank. Yet it only shows up in game as a title, for roleplaying purposes.

I see this as the same for Commodore and Fleet Captain. While both were ranks or honorary titles, as is the case with Fleet Captain (Both appearing in the TOS era) they aren't current ranks. But I don't see an issue with players being allowed to give themselves that title, just as they do with Lieutentant J.G.

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Yet it only shows up in game as a title, for roleplaying purposes.True, true. The LtJG has its own rank insignia, though, whereas the Commodore would need to "share" with the RALH.

Well, it could probably work if you also offer "Rear Admiral" as an alternative to RAUH - as if you had two rank systems running parallel to each other. Looks better than the full rank, anyways.

Not an ideal solution, as the LtJG is an addition, whereas the Commodore would be a replacement - but then again, seeing that we're already having or getting TOS/ENT uniforms and ships, I guess it could be seen as a means to tailor the game to one's own preferences.

I'd rather have it if we were all playing in the same era and rank system, but I suppose it is too late for this anyways, so I guess it would work. Too bad that the profile will still show the original rank, though.

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True, true. The LtJG has its own rank insignia, though, whereas the Commodore would need to "share" with the RALH.

Well, it could probably work if you also offer "Rear Admiral" as an alternative to RAUH - as if you had two rank systems running parallel to each other. Looks better than the full rank, anyways.

Not an ideal solution, as the LtJG is an addition, whereas the Commodore would be a replacement - but then again, seeing that we're already having or getting TOS/ENT uniforms and ships, I guess it could be seen as a means to tailor the game to one's own preferences.

I'd rather have it if we were all playing in the same era and rank system, but I suppose it is too late for this anyways, so I guess it would work. Too bad that the profile will still show the original rank, though.

I think you are thinking a bit too complicated here.

Yes, Lt. JG has a rank insignia option in the tailor. But it also has the vanity title which you can set.

In terms of Commodore, you wouldn't need a rank insignia because it's the exact same thing as a RALH, but from a different era. The majority of the people who would use the Commodore vanity title are probably using the TOS uniform, which already uses the Commodore braiding on the sleeve. So in that case, the only extra work is making the vanity title "Commodore" unlock at the same time that the "Rear Admiral" title unlocks.

Fleet Captain could serve as an alternate title once you hit Captain. And there, I could see them adding an additional rank insignia to the tailor, designtaed by 5 pips. but once again, as with Commodore, it would be an alternate title which gets unlocked, rather than any sort of rank change.

Basically my idea is to leave the actual game "rank" as Rear Admiral Lower Half. To me, the rank isn't nearly as important as the vanity title.

We all know Cryptic is working on a system which would allow us to set how we want to be addressed by NPCs. Most likely, this will be tied to the vanity title system. That's why I feel it is important to get these in as titles, and not to mess with the actual rank.

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I think you are thinking a bit too complicated here.

Yes, Lt. JG has a rank insignia option in the tailor. But it also has the vanity title which you can set.

In terms of Commodore, you wouldn't need a rank insignia because it's the exact same thing as a RALH, but from a different era. The majority of the people who would use the Commodore vanity title are probably using the TOS uniform, which already uses the Commodore braiding on the sleeve. So in that case, the only extra work is making the vanity title "Commodore" unlock at the same time that the "Rear Admiral" title unlocks.

Fleet Captain could serve as an alternate title once you hit Captain. And there, I could see them adding an additional rank insignia to the tailor, designtaed by 5 pips. but once again, as with Commodore, it would be an alternate title which gets unlocked, rather than any sort of rank change.

Basically my idea is to leave the actual game "rank" as Rear Admiral Lower Half. To me, the rank isn't nearly as important as the vanity title.

We all know Cryptic is working on a system which would allow us to set how we want to be addressed by NPCs. Most likely, this will be tied to the vanity title system. That's why I feel it is important to get these in as titles, and not to mess with the actual rank.

This sounds acceptable.

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I guess so. Hmm.

Personally, I dislike any four-letter-rank showing up in my profile (yeah, it's just a feeling) - but if we take what that one TNG episode hinted at for granted then that is indeed the last known canon rank. I still think it doesn't make any sense, but as I'm often enough asking people to respect the setting I'm under obligation to do so myself. Up to a point of actually argueing against the Commodore.

Wouldn't it be possible to just unlock the title of "Rear Admiral" with RALH, and have NPCs refer to you by this? So that the Lower/Upper Half stuff is only noted in the background (and with the two different pins obviously)? Kind of like it is done in the USN, too, to pull that comparison myself now. ;)

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.....

Wouldn't it be possible to just unlock the title of "Rear Admiral" with RALH, and have NPCs refer to you by this? So that the Lower/Upper Half stuff is only noted in the background (and with the two different pins obviously)? Kind of like it is done in the USN, too, to pull that comparison myself now. ;)

This was already addrssed in July here (http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=166731):

Just throw in a new variable! one for "displayed rank" one for *actual rank*
.

There's close to 1000 or more instances of the dialog wildcard {RankName} and in many cases it is used in conjunction with other wildcards such as "{RankName}{LastName}, we are in need of assistance. And in other places it is used as "This weapon can be equiped by {RankName}". So a global search and replace "may" get 90% of the cases, but then there will be 10% where it makes no sense or leads to misleading information. Then when you add in the fact that it will cause a relocalization pass on every dialog, it gets tricky.

We're looking into it and know how to address it in the code... it just takes time and resources to implement.

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This was already addrssed in July here (http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=166731):*nods* From what I've heard (only from other posters, mind you) they are working on it now - but thanks for the link! Any bit of information is useful. :)

But judging purely from the explanation ... in NPC dialogues, there would be no case where using title instead of rank would actually be bad, would there? Only in things like upgrades? I would think those are handled by a separate file, anyways.

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*nods* From what I've heard (only from other posters, mind you) they are working on it now - but thanks for the link! Any bit of information is useful. :)

But judging purely from the explanation ... in NPC dialogues, there would be no case where using title instead of rank would actually be bad, would there? Only in things like upgrades? I would think those are handled by a separate file, anyways.

I can't think of any.

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This has been a great discussion abot Commodore both as a rank and as a title. I think it would be acceptable as a title that was available at RALH. That would in effect allow people to go the Commodore route without interfering with those that do no wish to.

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And the title of Rear Admiral at RAUH then, I guess. Or RALH as well? They'd both be addressed as "Rear Admiral", wouldn't they? You could say that RAUH doesn't unlock any title since you already get it at RALH.

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The US navy doesn't use Commodore in an official capacity does it? I'm fairly certain that Rear Admiral (lower) is used.


commodore is a wartime rank when used by the usn it has not been gicen to an officer in the usn for a long long time

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commodore is a wartime rank when used by the usn it has not been gicen to an officer in the usn for a long long time

Assuming this is true that would make the wartime setting of STO an excellent reason to reinstate Commodore as a rank.

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Assuming this is true that would make the wartime setting of STO an excellent reason to reinstate Commodore as a rank.

Really, if it is a wartime ramk, and STO being set in wartime, then that would be reason enough to reintroduce the rank.

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Flog the dead horse. Flog it! Here's a knotted rope and a broom handle. Flog it!

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Flog the dead horse. Flog it! Here's a knotted rope and a broom handle. Flog it!

Thank you for your kind words and support.

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not to mention the dev time it would take to recode many aspects of the game,
Assuming Cryptic followed typical practice, the "Rear Admiral Lower Half" text is stored as a string somewhere and the dev time it would take to change should be however long it takes to delete and type "Commodore".

Oh, and I am 100% in favour of replacing the Admiral rank with Commodore. It's silly that everyone is an Admiral, and I don't think Cryptic understands just how many of us feel that way.

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Assuming Cryptic followed typical practice, the "Rear Admiral Lower Half" text is stored as a string somewhere and the dev time it would take to change should be however long it takes to delete and type "Commodore".

Oh, and I am 100% in favour of replacing the Admiral rank with Commodore. It's silly that everyone is an Admiral, and I don't think Cryptic understands just how many of us feel that way.

Just how many of you feel that way? Do you have a number?

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73% of the playerbase.




Of course I don't. But it gets raised here enough.

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73% of the playerbase.




Of course I don't. But it gets raised here enough.

They always ask for numbers knowing there is no way for any player to really ascertain that number, then they usually like to beat you up for providing your estimates.

All I know is that there is enough that want it either as a title or a rank that this issue is not going away.

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Flog the dead horse. Flog it! Here's a knotted rope and a broom handle. Flog it!

Okay...if that's what you really want...lay down please <raises the knotted rope> ...:)






Cryptic, please either change RALH to Commodore, or add a Title for those of us wanting that (TOS Canon) rank.

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This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Cryptic Studios Forum Usage Guidelines ( http://forums.startrekonline.com/announcement.php?f=70&a=2) ~InfoNinja