Allow Accolade Grinders in Foundry

[Archived Post]

Alright, to start off, I'm not an accolade grinder. I do not find it fun to sit through a mission that is nothing but giant fleets of Borg, one after the other, with no point other than to grind accolades.

But, ever since Cryptic started removing Foundry missions that are listed as accolade grinders, I've stumbled across another problem: people making grinders that are disguised as real missions.

There is nothing like entering a mission that you thought would be just a normal mission, and ending up in the middle of 20 Borg cubes. And, this goes on and on for about two hours.

If Cryptic would allow people not to hide under the guise of missions when making these grinders, they could label them, and I would know to skip them.

I understand they claim that this isn't in the "spirit" of the Foundry system, but it was my understanding that the spirit of the foundry system was that we could create whatever experience we want, however crappy. There are people who create foundry maps simple as customized roleplay areas(something you will be launching more extensively later), people who create clubs, etc. I don't see how grinding tons and tons of Borg is any different.

[Archived Post]

The solution is to turn off Accolade counting in Foundry. Also, to reduce loot drops there.

[Archived Post]

Alright, to start off, I'm not an accolade grinder. I do not find it fun to sit through a mission that is nothing but giant fleets of Borg, one after the other, with no point other than to grind accolades.

But, ever since Cryptic started removing Foundry missions that are listed as accolade grinders, I've stumbled across another problem: people making grinders that are disguised as real missions.

There is nothing like entering a mission that you thought would be just a normal mission, and ending up in the middle of 20 Borg cubes. And, this goes on and on for about two hours.

If Cryptic would allow people not to hide under the guise of missions when making these grinders, they could label them, and I would know to skip them.

I understand they claim that this isn't in the "spirit" of the Foundry system, but it was my understanding that the spirit of the foundry system was that we could create whatever experience we want, however crappy. There are people who create foundry maps simple as customized roleplay areas(something you will be launching more extensively later), people who create clubs, etc. I don't see how grinding tons and tons of Borg is any different.

Accolades, much like other achievement systems which the accolade system seems to be modeled upon, are a way to extend the life of what little content this game actually has. If a player gets on the accolade treadmill, then so long as they have to grind within the official missions, Cryptic can count on that player having hundreds of hours of grinding ahead of them.

If players can make missions to streamline the grind, then more players will get all their accolades and then look around and realize that almost no content gets added to this game.

That would be bad for the bottom line.

[Archived Post]

Alright, to start off, I'm not an accolade grinder. I do not find it fun to sit through a mission that is nothing but giant fleets of Borg, one after the other, with no point other than to grind accolades. But, ever since Cryptic started removing Foundry missions that are listed as accolade grinders, I've stumbled across another problem: people making grinders that are disguised as real missions.
Yep. When they're openly allowed, there will only ever be one Borg Accolade mission, because that's all anyone ever needs. When they're banned, there are thousands, because everyone still wants one, but nobody can make one that everyone else can just use; so everyone rolls their own and hides it. This also seem to be an unintended consequence of the crackdown on the explosion grinds; even though Cryptic said they don't mind missions where you have to fight 1,000 enemies and kill them the old fashioned way, people apparently took the policy to cover all "straight combat" or "non storyline" missions. Cryptic has conspicuously not removed about 10 or 12 of the original, advertised ground and space "accolade" missions, yet people are apparently now recreating these under cover anyway, since they perceive them to be banned.

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Ahh, lovely. I see the Borg have assimilated the Rikti Monkeys already.

*sigh*

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That is why there is a report button on the ratings window, find a hidden one, hit the report button.

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Accolades were really only a secondary issue as far as exploit grinding goes.

There are plenty of legit foundry missions focused, say on eliminating a romulan or borg threat. They weren't intended for grinding and were written for the right reason.

I imagine if you play enough of those with the intention of grinding, then I wouldn't think you're doing anything wrong.

There's no value to a Foundry mission that has no story or purpose other than to destroy 1238947612 undine cruisers. That's been shown to be a clear violation of the intent of the foundry and therefore an exploit.

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That is why there is a report button on the ratings window, find a hidden one, hit the report button.

Probably the best mitigation you have right now without sacrificing too much for one side or another. It helped in farmers advertising in channels or spamming mail, if people are vigilant enough it'll help in the Foundry as well.

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If you log into a mission and find out it is a "hidden grind", then report it. If the person has already been warned before, they will lose their ability to create missions. The solution to this problem isnt to change the rules, but to report the people doing it. Eventually those people wont be able to create missions anymore, and the problem will be solved.

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Foundry missions aren't the most effective way to grind for loot, and grinding for accolades seems rather pointless.

Besides, in most cases there are Cryptic missions you can grind for the accolades anyway.

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whether we like it or not, or agree with it or not cryptic dont want us doing it. end of story.

find a mission and report it. soon they will stop making them one way or the other.

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whether we like it or not, or agree with it or not cryptic dont want us doing it. end of story.
They said they don't care about missions where you just go in and kill 1,000 mobs. The ones that cheesed them off were the ones where you could kill ships by suiciding. Those are gone now; both deleted by Cryptic and nerfed by the recent patch. They have no problem with ones that are left where you just kill 1,000 of something, for whatever reason. Unfortunately people seems to have missed that point; both the Foundry Cops and the mission authors. Failure to understand what's allowed and what isn't only makes it more confusing and frustrating for everyone.

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They said they don't care about missions where you just go in and kill 1,000 mobs. The ones that cheesed them off were the ones where you could kill ships by suiciding. Those are gone now; both deleted by Cryptic and nerfed by the recent patch. They have no problem with ones that are left where you just kill 1,000 of something, for whatever reason. Unfortunately people seems to have missed that point; both the Foundry Cops and the mission authors. Failure to understand what's allowed and what isn't only makes it more confusing and frustrating for everyone.

Sorry to disappoint, but both of the scenerios you describe are not allowed:

We want the Foundry to be used for users to create missions. Set a scenario, create the world anew for yourself. The tool was not created to allow players to level up easier, to have a quicker way to gather Accolades, or similar. If your mission sets this as a goal in any form, we may take action. Please do not create missions that are geared towards boosting of any kind.

http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?p=3500006#post3500006

If you want to create an actual story that involves killing a bunch of NPCs, that is fine. But if you just make a mission where you fight wave after wave of NPCs without any reason except to rack up quick xp or kill accolades, then you are boosting.

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Sorry to disappoint, but both of the scenerios you describe are not allowed:
Sorry to disappoint, but Salami Inferno has said in-game that they have no problem with missions where you just fight and kill 1,000 of something. You're also conveniently overlooking the words "easier" and "quicker" in WishStone's message. Cryptic has never said they have a problem with people leveling or completing accolades through Foundry missions. They have said they have a problem with people doing those things quicker or easier than with normal missions. Killing 1,000 things is killing 1,000 things regardless of how or where you do it. Killing 1,000 things by suiciding and blowing away 200 at once with your Warp Core Breach was a problem; they fixed that. They also removed the missions that were a problem, because they relied on that mechanic. They have left the missions that were not a problem, which include the few original ground "accolade" missions. It's easy to see the difference between what they consider a problem and what they don't. I realize that the Foundry Cops wish that any mission that doesn't involve an hour of epic romance as a prelude to killing five things would be banned. But wishing doesn't make it so.

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Sorry to disappoint, but Salami Inferno has said in-game that they have no problem with missions where you just fight and kill 1,000 of something.

Do you have a link?

Killing 1,000 things is killing 1,000 things regardless of how or where you do it..

Sorry, but that is incorrect. To kill 1,000 NPCs through 'normal' missions would require you to play dozens of missions. Killing 1,000 back to back in a single mission is much easier and quicker than doing it in dozens of missions that involve traveling and other parts of gameplay.

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Sorry, but that is incorrect. To kill 1,000 NPCs through 'normal' missions would require you to play dozens of missions. Killing 1,000 back to back in a single mission is much easier and quicker than doing it in dozens of missions that involve traveling and other parts of gameplay.
Nothing Cryptic has said supports that, and the fact that you think this is a problem doesn't mean Cryptic thinks this is a problem. Stop spreading misinformation.

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One other part of Wishstone's post that applies here:

Please report missions that you feel go against fair play by being centered on farming / grinding or similar with the report functions in game.

The ship explosion thing you mentioned was an exploit. However, killing 1,000 NPCs is framing/grinding. And according to his statement above, you should report any mission you think is centerted on farming/grinding.

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Here are definitions of the term "grinding" in relation to video games:

The most common usage is in the context of MMORPGs, such as Final Fantasy XI, World of ******** and Dragon Quest IX[3] in which it is often necessary for a character to repeatedly kill AI-controlled monsters, using basically the same strategy over and over again, in order to advance their character level to be able to access newer content.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grinding_(video_gaming)

To put is simply, grinding is killing the groups of NPCs over and over. And once again, here is what we have been told:

Please report missions that you feel go against fair play by being centered on farming / grinding or similar with the report functions in game.

[Archived Post]

then unless we know exactly what salami said then we have a conflict of information. and very much down to interpretation. whishtone said they do not want anything in any form. sticking 1000 mobs on a map (or over several) because of a limit, is in my view, designing a mission for exploitation. your doing so not because you want a story but because your trying to get an accolade as fast as you can.

seting up a mission with several hundred battleships is setting up a mission for exploitation because of the high number of skill points you get for each kill. yes you still have to manually kill them and that takes time but if they are all on one map, in one mission then its a hell of a lot easier to do it in one go.

its just quciker and easier to blast through these missions then to find these ship normally over several. that to me is exploiting the system, and you run the risk of being warned or having your foundry banned.

maybe someone could come and totally clear it up, as its not 100% clear, but at the moment i would work on the side of caution.

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One other part of Wishstone's post that applies here:



The ship explosion thing you mentioned was an exploit. However, killing 1,000 NPCs is framing/grinding. And according to his statement above, you should report any mission you think is centerted on farming/grinding.

heh I have no intention on reporting accolade grind/farm missions... well.. until after I get the 1000 kill mark.

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then unless we know exactly what salami said then we have a conflict of information. and very much down to interpretation.

I just checked his tracker, and there is no such post since this issue was brought up around the middle of this month:

http://forums.startrekonline.com/search.php?do=finduser&u=65570

You only have to read his first page of posts which go back to 4/8 to see he never made that statement.

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I just checked his tracker, and there is no such post since this issue was brought up around the middle of this month:

http://forums.startrekonline.com/search.php?do=finduser&u=65570

You only have to read his first page of posts which go back to 4/8 to see he never made that statement.

i believe heez said 'in game', and not the forums so i assume he means on the TTS feed or something. which is pretty hard to tell what he meant unless he comes in here and clarifies.

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then unless we know exactly what salami said then we have a conflict of information. and very much down to interpretation. whishtone said they do not do anything in any form. sticking a 1000 mobs on a map (or over several) because of a limit, is in my view, designing a mission for exploitation. your doing so not because you want a story but because your trying to get an accolade as fast as you can.
Well, your view is not Cryptic's view. Next time you catch Salami in game, ask him yourself what types of missions they have a problem with and what types they don't.

Also, it's easy enough to simply see what they have a problem with and what they don't. Go to Foundry, open search, and put in "accolade." I get 10 missions in the current search results. These are the exact same 10 "accolade" missions that have been up in the list since day one when the Foundry came out. These missions were there when the grind purge and patch occurred last week. They have no doubt been reported thousands of times by the Foundry Cops. When Cryptic went through and removed the problematic missions, they left these, because they weren't a problem. They know these missions are there. All have the words "grind" or "accolade" in their names and descriptions. Cryptic doesn't care, because they aren't a problem. As Salami said, if you just want to go kill stuff, they don't have a problem with you going and killing stuff.

Anything else people are trying to extrapolate from this policy is just wishful thinking, and their attempt to impute their views to Cryptic, and to scare other players off from creating missions they don't personally approve of. If players want good missions, then they should spend more time making good missions and stop trying to convince people their personal preferences are company policy.

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i believe heez said 'in game', and not the forums so i assume he means on the TTS feed or something. which is pretty hard to tell what he meant unless he comes in here and clarifies.
Yes, he said this in a conversation in TTS, a few days before the "fighter grind" nerf, in response to the question "Are you going to do something about grind missions." His response was that they don't have a problem with people actually fighting and killing 1,000 things, but they did have a problem with killing things by suiciding, and they were working on a way to fix it. Shortly after that, they found a way to fix it, put in the warp core breach patch, and deleted the fighter grinds that then existed.

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Your view is not Cryptic's view. Next time you catch Salami in game, ask him yourself what types of missions they have a problem with and what types they don't.

Sorry, but Wishstone specifically said to report grinding, and grinding is killing NPCs over and over back to back. If you disagree with that, then its not me you disagree with it is him.

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Sorry, but Wishstone specifically said to report grinding, and grinding is killing NPCs over and over back to back. If you disagree with that, then its not me you disagree with it is him.
Sorry, but you are wrong. You have misread what they said, and this is your policy, not theirs.

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Your view is not Cryptic's view. Next time you catch Salami in game, ask him yourself what types of missions they have a problem with and what types they don't.

Also, it's easy enough to simply see what they have a problem with and what they don't. Go to Foundry, open search, and put in "accolade." I get 10 missions in the current search results. These are the exact same 10 "accolade" missions that have been up in the list since day one when the Foundry came out. These missions were there when the grind purge and patch occurred last week. They have no doubt been reported thousands of times by the Foundry Cops. When Cryptic went through and removed the problematic missions, they left these, because they weren't a problem. They know these missions are there. All have the words "grind" or "accolade" in their names and descriptions. Cryptic doesn't care, because they aren't a problem. As Salami said, if you just want to go kill stuff, they don't have a problem with you going and killing stuff.

Anything else is just your own wishful thinking, and your attempt to impute your views to Cryptic, and to scare other players off from creating missions you don't personally approve of. Just give it a rest. If you want good missions, go spend your time making good missions instead of trying to convince people your personal preferences are company policy.

im not trying to scare people, or put my views over as more important than cryptic. hey guess what, i actually dont have a problem with accolade hunting missions, my point is that my interpretation of cryptic's post says they they are the ones having a problem. that differs from your interpretation. thats fine. you wont here me telling you to be quiet because i disagree with you though.

all im doing is having a conversation on the forums. your view is not cryptic either. your just interpreting their comments in your own way as i am doing mine. until they clarify what is now a point of contention we wont know.

im sorry that you feel that because i disagree with you, that i should 'give it a rest' as you say. maybe the part where i clearly said 'in my view' or we should 'work on the side of caution' was too inflammatory for you.

and i have been spending time making good mission. go check the tracker, the highest rated english language mission is mine with over 2500 reviews and a 4.4 rating. thanks.

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and i have been spending time making good mission. go check the tracker, the highest rated english language mission is mine with over 2500 reviews and a 4.4 rating. thanks.
Sorry, it probably seemed like some of my comments were directed at you; they weren't. They are a response to the consistent misinterpretation of Cryptic's policy that people seem to be still trying very hard to spread.

Like I said, if you want to see for yourself what missions are and are not a problem, it's very easy. Just go to Foundry and look at the ones that are advertised as accolade missions, have been there from the start, and were never touched when Cryptic addressed this problem. Also, talk to developers in game when they're on TTS. I'm sure they'll be happy to give you the same answers they've given before. The "accolade" missions that exist right now, today, in the Foundry listing are entirely consistent with everything Cryptic has said, and looking at those missions vs. the ones that were removed shows clearly where they have drawn the line.

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Look acquiring Accolades is done in regular play. Missions that are exploiting the system will be reported and removed there is no cause to change the foundry setup. Removing drops from foundry is foolish as is turning off accolade accumulation. Just accept that part of the system is reporting mission that are an exploit. Thats why that button exists.

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Sorry, it probably seemed like some of my comments were directed at you; they weren't. They are a response to the consistent misinterpretation of Cryptic's policy that people seem to be still trying very hard to spread.

Like I said, if you want to see for yourself what missions are and are not a problem, it's very easy. Just go to Foundry and look at the ones that are advertised as accolade missions, have been there from the start, and were never touched when Cryptic addressed this problem. Also, talk to developers in game when they're on TTS. I'm sure they'll be happy to give you the same answers they've given before. The "accolade" missions that exist right now, today, in the Foundry listing are entirely consistent with everything Cryptic has said, and looking at those missions vs. the ones that were removed shows clearly where they have drawn the line.

apology accepted. when i can confirm that i will be happy to change my stance on the matter. i like to accolade hunt. i will be more than happy to play some mission if they are allowed. if salami's comments are accurate then whishtone's posts are misleading in my eyes, and needs clarification in writing on the forums.

until i have 100% confirmation i will consider any misison anywhere near accolade hunting to be dubious at best. i will be more than happy to be proven wrong.

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Sorry, but you are wrong. You have misread what they said, and this is your policy, not theirs.

There is no "misreading" anything. This is what he said:

Please report missions that you feel go against fair play by being centered on farming / grinding or similar with the report functions in game.

If you do not understand the meaning of the terms farming or grinding, then you can look them up. But no matter how many times you try to say otherwise, you arent going to change what he said.

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apology accepted. when i can confirm that i will be happy to change my stance on the matter. i like to accolade hunt. i will be more than happy to play some mission if they are allowed. if salami's comments are accurate then whishtone's posts are misleading in my eyes, and needs clarification in writing on the forums.
I don't think WishStone's post is misleading. The problem is that some people have misread "easier" and "faster" in an unreasonably broad and oddly slanted way. The only difference between the "accolade" missions that we have today and playing explore chains over and over for kills is you spend a lot less time staring at the loading screen. That's a difference that clearly doesn't matter to Cryptic. And there is no difference at all between fighting and killing a pile of mobs in a map with 50, or 100, or even 500 mobs on it, and the typical Fleet Action or DSE. Just running around killing a whole bunch of stuff is not a problem. That is, after all, about 95% of what the game is about; it's literally the one single thing you spend more time doing than anything else. Killing mobs by your own suicide was obviously a mechanic Cryptic never intended, and everyone knew that as soon as someone figured it out and started to employ it. Killing for the sake of killing is just business as usual.

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Killing mobs by your own suicide was obviously a mechanic Cryptic never intended, and everyone knew that as soon as someone figured it out and started to employ it. Killing for the sake of killing is just business as usual.

Ok, lets just say for a brief second that is correct. If that is the only problem they had, then why did Wishstone specifically say to report missions that were grinding or farming, since grinding is different from exploiting?

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If you do not understand the meaning of the terms farming or grinding, then you can look them up. But no matter how many times you try to say otherwise, you arent going to change what he said.
Keep posting this all you want. And keep right on reporting those same 10 accolade missions. In fact, go report all of them again right now, if you haven't done it already today. They're still there, and they'll stay there, because Cryptic clearly doesn't consider them a problem, and they do not violate any policy Cryptic has announced on this point. You can go on insisting that your preference is their policy as much as you want, but it's still not going to be true.

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Keep posting this all you want. And keep right on reporting those same 10 accolade missions. In fact, go report all of them again right now, if you haven't done it already today. They're still there, and they'll stay there, because Cryptic clearly doesn't consider them a problem, and they do not violate any policy Cryptic has announced on this point. You can go on insisting that your preference is their policy as much as you want, but it's still not going to be true.

http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?p=3507434#post3507434

And just FYI, I dont care if people do grind missions. I'm just telling you what Wishstone said. But please, answer the question in my last post. I'd love to hear your explanation to this.

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Ok, lets just say for a brief second that is correct. If that is the only problem they had, then why did Wishstone specifically say to report missions that were grinding or farming, since grinding is different from exploiting?
Killing =/= "grinding" or "farming." It's a simple concept. The missions that qualified as problems got reported, got deleted, and haven't come back. The missions that didn't qualify as problems remained, and remain today. Anyone can read the policy, look at the missions, and figure out what is allowed and what isn't.

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Killing =/= "grinding" or "farming." It's a simple concept.

I agree. So before we move forward, what is your definition of "grinding" or "farming". Lets get this cleared up.

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I agree. So before we move forward, what is your definition of "grinding" or "farming". Lets get this cleared up.
My definition doesn't matter any more than yours does. What matters is Cryptic's definition, and it's easy to see what that is. Their stated policy, the statements made in game by developers, and the actions they have taken in deleting missions they defined as a problem have all been simple, clear, consistent, and comprehensible. The fighter grind missions were on one side of the line. The "accolade" missions that they have left in-game are on the other. If you want to kill 1,000 mobs, you can kill 1,000 mobs. Cryptic has given you ways to do that in their regular missions, and they clearly accept and tolerate Foundry missions that give you a way to do the exact same thing.

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My definition doesn't matter any more than yours does.

Sure it does, because you are telling me that I am wrong, and that that killing 1,000 NPCs in a single mission isnt grinding. So please, tell me your definition of grinding so I can know what you mean when reading your posts.

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And people still wonder why I think the Foundry in its current form is a mistake. It lends itself to be exploited in too many ways. The developers make content to extent the life of the game for the good of the bottom line as well as the longevity of the game. While these "accolade hunters"/"level grinders" want to treat this MMO as they do a single player game in which they can shortcut their way to the top. Thus ruining the game for the honest players. Way to go.:mad:

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If you log into a mission and find out it is a "hidden grind", then report it. If the person has already been warned before, they will lose their ability to create missions. The solution to this problem isnt to change the rules, but to report the people doing it. Eventually those people wont be able to create missions anymore, and the problem will be solved.

this times a million,report it, let the system eliminate the garbage

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That is why there is a report button on the ratings window, find a hidden one, hit the report button.

I have not played many Foundry missions, so I may be wrong when I say this:

Couldn't the creator just not specify the location that the mission takes place in their description, so that people would not know that it really was a grind mission? It would basicly be the creater's own grind that no one can access...

and personaly I really could care less if about these grind missions, but I think that Foundry Author's should have the freedom to create whatever they want, crap or not.

I have created numerous missions without stories, and they consist of large numbers of ships concentrated in an area. Now this may seem like a grind but its not, its my personal fleet action.
I would not otherwise publish these missions because I would rather no one play them but myself, but you cannot play it yourself without publishing.

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Create what you want, but once you publish it it should be open to praise or scrutiny, and if needed reporting.

pub·lish (pblsh)
v. pub·lished, pub·lish·ing, pub·lish·es
v.tr.
1. To prepare and issue (printed material) for public distribution or sale.
2. To bring to the public attention; announce. .

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I was shocked whe i discovered foundry missions gave out accolades, items, etc. I dont think they should give out anything, they are supposed to be unofficial player created stories and missions, more like halonovels.. if you get an item in the holodeck and step off that holodeck, the item will vanish.. grinding missions only screw up the rating system and make it harder to find the good missions.

Id also rather have cryptic dedicate their resources to game development, rather then babysitting, policing, and regulating the foundry..

- X -

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I really don't have a problem with Accolade Grinders (i might actually have a reason to play then)

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I was shocked whe i discovered foundry missions gave out accolades, items, etc. I dont think they should give out anything, they are supposed to be unofficial player created stories and missions, more like halonovels.. if you get an item in the holodeck and step off that holodeck, the item will vanish.. grinding missions only screw up the rating system and make it harder to find the good missions.

Id also rather have cryptic dedicate their resources to game development, rather then babysitting, policing, and regulating the foundry..

- X -

And this is exactly what will end up happening if there aren't enough people speaking up against the foundry in its current form. This NEEDS to be changed. The developers should change the way the foundry behaves. It shouldn't be an accolade grind or a XP grind.

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I really don't have a problem with Accolade Grinders (i might actually have a reason to play then)

The question isnt whether we agree with it or not, but what the rules are.

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Keep posting this all you want. And keep right on reporting those same 10 accolade missions. In fact, go report all of them again right now, if you haven't done it already today. They're still there, and they'll stay there, because Cryptic clearly doesn't consider them a problem, and they do not violate any policy Cryptic has announced on this point. You can go on insisting that your preference is their policy as much as you want, but it's still not going to be true.

Logic fail. Just because some grind missions are still in game doesnt mean Cryptic thinks they are fine, it simply means they havent gotten to them yet. There are alot of people who speed, but that doesnt mean its ok. If they continue to do it long enough, they will eventually get pulled over. And eventually people who publish grind missions will get either a warning or having their publishing abilities removed if they do not listen to the warning.

The simple fact is that Wishstone said to report any mission that has grinding. Your problem is you dont understand what the word grinding means. But most people who play games do, and they know it means killing dozens of NPCs over and over and over and over and over.

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Let's say someone creates a real story mission as intended by the Foundry purpose... but adds a easter egg room where you can grind if you want, or just ignore it... would that be still naughty?

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Let's say someone creates a real story mission as intended by the Foundry purpose... but adds a easter egg room where you can grind if you want, or just ignore it... would that be still naughty?

Its hard to answer with such a vague question. What do you mean "easter egg room"? Anyway, I think Stormshade's comments explain it pretty well:

Please report missions that you feel go against fair play by being centered on farming / grinding or similar with the report functions in game.

Is the "grinding" the focus of the mission, or just something a person can do if they want? Lets say, for example, that you made a map where you had to get from Point A on one end of the map to Point B on the other. And lets also assume that this map was not the only map in the mission, just one among several. Now lets say that there were dozens of enemies on that map, and the mission objective was to "try" to avoid getting caught.

As long as that was not the only map in the mission and all of the enemies were there for some reason related to the story, then that would not be a mission focused on grinding, even if it allowed people to do it if they wanted to.

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There's a good way to do a grind mission and a bad way.

The bad way is the room with 23 mobs spawning one after the other. That's awful.

A good grinder might be a highly detailed warzone where the player moves across the battlefield and engages in other activity aside from just killing things.

The point is a good grinder actually has the story and interactions as its top priority and fulfills the accolades as a secondary priority. I don't mind grinders, unless they're boring and blatantly obvious about it.

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There's a good way to do a grind mission and a bad way.

The bad way is the room with 23 mobs spawning one after the other. That's awful.

A good grinder might be a highly detailed warzone where the player moves across the battlefield and engages in other activity aside from just killing things.

The point is a good grinder actually has the story and interactions as its top priority and fulfills the accolades as a secondary priority. I don't mind grinders, unless they're boring and blatantly obvious about it.

Though I personally agree, whether we "mind it" or not is irrelevant. Stormshade said if the mission is "centered on" grinding or farming, it should be reported. So as mentioned in my last post, if there are parts of the mission that allow for grinding that is one thing. But if the mission itself is focused on the grind then Stormshade said to report it.

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I have not played many Foundry missions, so I may be wrong when I say this:

Couldn't the creator just not specify the location that the mission takes place in their description, so that people would not know that it really was a grind mission? It would basicly be the creater's own grind that no one can access...

and personaly I really could care less if about these grind missions, but I think that Foundry Author's should have the freedom to create whatever they want, crap or not.

I have created numerous missions without stories, and they consist of large numbers of ships concentrated in an area. Now this may seem like a grind but its not, its my personal fleet action.
I would not otherwise publish these missions because I would rather no one play them but myself, but you cannot play it yourself without publishing.

All of the fleet actions in the game involve 2 fleets fighting each other. If you make a mission where you are the only ship fighting an enemy fleet, that is not a fleet action. To make a fleet action you would have to put an allied fleet on the map fighting the enemy fleet.

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Logic fail. Just because some grind missions are still in game doesnt mean Cryptic thinks they are fine, it simply means they havent gotten to them yet. There are alot of people who speed, but that doesnt mean its ok. If they continue to do it long enough, they will eventually get pulled over. And eventually people who publish grind missions will get either a warning or having their publishing abilities removed if they do not listen to the warning.
Fact fail. These missions have been out since day one. They're highly rated and clearly labeled with the words "grind" and "accolades," just like the ones that were deleted. There are only 10 of them at last count (today). Cryptic knows they're in the system, just like everyone else who searches for the word "grind" or "accolade." Cryptic's own people have also clearly stated that they don't care about missions where you just go into a map and kill 1,000 things. That's all that these missions are, and that's why they have not been, and won't be, removed. What they care about is where you abuse a mechanic to kill 1,000 things in a way that you could not in any other scenario in the game. That was the problem with the warp core breach missions, and that problem has been fixed. Cryptic also carefully reviewed and deleted all the missions that they could find which they considered a problem at that time; in some cases they even had to delete some of them several times when they were republished. They conspicuously left all the ground accolade, and regular space killing missions alone, consistent with exactly what they've said they were concerned about, and the problems they said they were trying to solve.

If you think these missions are reportable, go report them. No doubt they've already been reported dozens, hundreds, or even thousands of times as "violating" this policy; they're easy to find, and they show up right at the top of the list. And there aren't more than a handful of them. Yet there they are. If you continue to think they're in violation, then keep reporting them. And we'll see how long they stay.

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All of the fleet actions in the game involve 2 fleets fighting each other. If you make a mission where you are the only ship fighting an enemy fleet, that is not a fleet action. To make a fleet action you would have to put an allied fleet on the map fighting the enemy fleet.
No, they don't. Gorn Minefield; Klingon Scout Force; Big Dig; none of them involve "two fleets." There are hundreds of enemy mobs of one or a couple races, and some number of players. There is no "other fleet" in any of these. When they run, there might be one player inside, or there might be twenty, it just depends on who is around.

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Cryptic's own people have also clearly stated that they don't care about missions where you just go into a map and kill 1,000 things.

Verifiable quote or it didnt happen.

What they care about is where you abuse a mechanic to kill 1,000 things in a way that you could not in any other scenario in the game.

No other scenario in the game allows you to kill 1,000 things on one map. To do that normally would require lots of traveling. So doing it in the Foundry would be alot faster than doing it outside of the foundry. And Stormshade said you cannot make missions that allow you to get kills or accolades faster than in the normal game.

.......................................

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No other scenario in the game allows you to kill 1,000 things on one map. To do that normally would require lots of traveling. So doing it in the Foundry would be alot faster than doing it outside of the foundry.
You can't actually put 1,000 mobs on a map; the max is a couple hundred. The 1,000 number was hyperbole on Salami's part. But the principle is the same. You can do exactly the same thing in a Foundry map that you can do in any fleet action or DSE. If you want to "verify" the quote, get in game and ask Salami or any other dev on TTS any time you find them on.

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If you want to "verify" the quote, get in game and ask Salami or any other dev on TTS any time you find them on.

The burden of proof (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophic_burden_of_proof) lies with the person making the claim, not the person asking for verification. Stormshade said to report grinding. Anyone can read that statement and verify it was said.

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The burden of proof (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophic_burden_of_proof) lies with the person making the claim, not the person asking for verification. Stormshade said to report grinding. Anyone can read that statement and verify it was said.
You want verification; verify it. TTS is open to anyone to chat, and developers are frequently in game talking there. You also know exactly how to find these accolade missions. There are about 10 of them. If you think these missions are reportable, report them. Feel free to post when you see them get depublished.

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You want verification; verify it.

Nope, you've got it backwards. If you want people to believe your claim, then you have to verify it. This is the internet. No one knows you, so your word doesnt mean anything without proof. We have a verifiable quote from Stormshade that says to report grinding. So unless you can provide a verifiable quote saying otherwise, then your argument is irrelevant.

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We have a verifiable quote from Stormshade that says to report grinding.
Why are you wasting time here? Get reporting. I'm off to report this thread as a grind mission for the 1,000 ignores accolade.

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Nope, you've got it backwards. If you want people to believe your claim, then you have to verify it. This is the internet. No one knows you, so your word doesnt mean anything without proof. We have a verifiable quote from Stormshade that says to report grinding. So unless you can provide a verifiable quote saying otherwise, then your argument is irrelevant.

Quoted for truth.

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Why are you wasting time here? Get reporting. And thanks for giving me another +1 toward my 1,000 ignores accolade.

Its not a waste of time because people who make unverifiable claims that effect other people's gameplay need to have their statements questioned so other people can see they have no proof of what they are saying.

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Its not a waste of time because people who make unverifiable claims that effect other people's gameplay need to have their statements questioned so other people can see they have no proof of what they are saying.

Well said.

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Though I personally agree, whether we "mind it" or not is irrelevant. Stormshade said if the mission is "centered on" grinding or farming, it should be reported. So as mentioned in my last post, if there are parts of the mission that allow for grinding that is one thing. But if the mission itself is focused on the grind then Stormshade said to report it.

I agree. If the focus is on story and other interactions, that's (by definition) not centered on grinding.

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I imagined it that way:

You have a story mission and have to proceed from point A to point be - done.
However, there is a hidden door on one map that leads you to room C - where you have an overabundance of enemies. Killing those does not influence the mission progress in any fashion - that way, it has virtually nothing to do with the rest of the mission and is an easter egg. Know what I mean?

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I imagined it that way:

You have a story mission and have to proceed from point A to point be - done.
However, there is a hidden door on one map that leads you to room C - where you have an overabundance of enemies. Killing those does not influence the mission progress in any fashion - that way, it has virtually nothing to do with the rest of the mission and is an easter egg. Know what I mean?

That sounds ok (to me). Although since killing them isnt an objective of the mission, you cant spawn more after they are killed. And there is really only so many you can reasonably put in a room without getting instantly killed.

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Guys, just so you realize, WishStone just responded to this again. Someone posted; "Making missions that main purpose is to give you accolade or XP most people also feel is cheating. Sadly they are very popular and get good reviews."

In response to this WishStone said; "Please report these. Making these missions is abuse of the system and we will remove such missions and revoke publishing rights to players who make them."

I have links to this in my Foundry Eula thread that's stickied at the top of this forum.

So it doesn't matter what your opinion is. It doesn't matter what someone said in the TTS channel in game. WishStone is one of the community/moderator people, and she works for Atari, not Cryptic. If she says people will get banninated for this then you can believe it.

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If we don't want disguised Accolade Hunting Grind missions in the Foundry, I have a very easy solution. Just give everyone a button. "Complete all Accolades".

For the remaining content, we could perhaps also allow to activate the Foundry map Preview UI. That Kill Target button sounds sexy. It just needs to be disabled in PvP (damn PvP nerfing our game), and all issues are fixed.

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I think part of the reason accolade grinders are so popular is that individual missions don't grant SP, so large mob counts were the only way to get SP in missions.

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I don't really see the harm if someone has to legitimately kill the mobs, personally, and if the only real reward is a ship trophy on their own ship.

I really don't understand why the devs or any player would be opposed to these, as long as a player has to legitimately kill the enemies and isn't given, say, a terrain advantage or risk free means of killing them.

Heck, just create a holodeck room where a player can spawn enemies endlessly, one wave at a time, to their heart's content.

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Guys, just so you realize, WishStone just responded to this again. Someone posted; "Making missions that main purpose is to give you accolade or XP most people also feel is cheating. Sadly they are very popular and get good reviews."

In response to this WishStone said; "Please report these. Making these missions is abuse of the system and we will remove such missions and revoke publishing rights to players who make them."

I have links to this in my Foundry Eula thread that's stickied at the top of this forum.

So it doesn't matter what your opinion is. It doesn't matter what someone said in the TTS channel in game. WishStone is one of the community/moderator people, and she works for Atari, not Cryptic. If she says people will get banninated for this then you can believe it.

Right. And the key to all of this is if the "main purpose" of the mission is grinding, not if the mission has alot of NPCs in it.

If we don't want disguised Accolade Hunting Grind missions in the Foundry, I have a very easy solution. Just give everyone a button. "Complete all Accolades".

The real solution is to do what Wishstone said: report any mission you think is mainly a grind. Those authors will eventually lose their publishing abilities if they continue, and the problem is solved.

I don't really see the harm if someone has to legitimately kill the mobs, personally, and if the only real reward is a ship trophy on their own ship.

I really don't understand why the devs or any player would be opposed to these, as long as a player has to legitimately kill the enemies and isn't given, say, a terrain advantage or risk free means of killing them.

Heck, just create a holodeck room where a player can spawn enemies endlessly, one wave at a time, to their heart's content.

It doesnt matter whether you understand or agree. All that matters is what what the Devs have told us, and that is to report missions that are mainly a grind. Of course, your free to not report them if you want, but either way whether you agree or not doesnt change the official stance.

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It doesnt matter whether you understand or agree. All that matters is what what the Devs have told us, and that is to report missions that are mainly a grind. Of course, your free to not report them if you want, but either way whether you agree or not doesnt change the official stance.

Ours not to wonder why, ours just to do or die... ;)

Nah, seriously. The devs cared because many players cared and voiced their concerns against (player made) grind missions. I remember there were at least three threads on the topic.

While I just drop a mission once I see it's mere grind, disguised in a thin story, who am I to judge? There are faster ways to gain XP and there are more interesting ways at least to make the accolades.
Obvious grind missions got banned. Soon perhaps mere social hubs will get banned, because they allow players to make XP without any effort and there are threads here complaining about that fact.

The problem will be to create game mechanics to leave players with as much freedom as possible to create a mission.

Because if I have to constantly think about the fact that a mission/RP place I create could be exploited in some way.. that I could lose my rights without notice to create more content... It kind of makes me feel like an artist in the old Soviet Union or in East Germany before the fall of the wall or standing in front of a Hoover committee and have to watch my every word.

Especially since the reviews are quite subjective...

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Ours not to wonder why, ours just to do or die... ;)

Nah, seriously. The devs cared because many players cared and voiced their concerns against (player made) grind missions. I remember there were at least three threads on the topic.


That is open to interpretation, but the fact is that the EULA(of the game, not the Foundry) prohibited using game mechanics in a way not intended for personal benefit, and said that long before the Foundry ever came out.

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prohibited using game mechanics in a way not intended for personal benefit

oO Should I, too, start the game of picking on single lines/items/words here instead of contributing to a discussion? No... :)

Sidenote: Someone show me how to please use my own LTA powers, so I can have colored text, too and call myself a career officer on the forum, too. So far it evaded me. ;)


Nagus: We PAY for the game... Or PAID for it, in case of us LTA owners. MMO EULAs pretty much all state the same stuff. It is a matter of interpreting them and how they are enforced...

The end result - in this case - should be that players have fun creating missions without having to worry too much. But I stated my arguments in regards to this above. I will not repeat them...

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Sidenote: Someone show me how to please use my own LTA powers, so I can have colored text, too and call myself a career officer on the forum, too. So far it evaded me. ;)
It's in the forum control panel; somewhere is a feature to "join groups." You have to join the "career officer" group (assuming you have a lifetime sub, this choice should be available to you).

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It's in the forum control panel; somewhere is a feature to "join groups." You have to join the "career officer" group (assuming you have a lifetime sub, this choice should be available to you).

Thx - Instant promotion. ;)

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oO Should I, too, start the game of picking on single lines/items/words here instead of contributing to a discussion? No... :)

Your free to do whatever you like, but official statements have made it clear that grinding was not the intention of the Foundry. Theres not really anything to pick apart about that.

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Assuredly. And you will perhaps remember from earlier discussions and my postings above, that I am not a fan of grind missions either.

What I find dubious is:

a) the way missions are identified as "grind missions".
b) the risk that mere RP missions/non-combat missions could be the next target.
c) the fact that creators rights are just taken away.

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The real solution is to do what Wishstone said: report any mission you think is mainly a grind. Those authors will eventually lose their publishing abilities if they continue, and the problem is solved.
Yep, Wish said if you think a mission is a grind you should report it. So go report them. There are maybe 10 or 20 missions that you personally define as "grinds" in the system right now. Many of those have been there since Foundry went live.

If you're having a problem finding them, I'll help you out: search for "kill" or "grind" or "accolade." You should have no problems turning them up. Most of them are plainly labeled and not hidden in any way. If you want to be even more vigilant, search for the names of the various races as well; that will catch a few with slightly more creative titles. I'll even spot you one for free: there's one nice funny little one that's actually named simply "kill stuff." I recommend you start there. Also, report them at least once a day, every day, just to make sure Cryptic knows what a heinous scandal they are.

The Foundry Cops have certainly already reported all of these dozens of times; maybe hundreds. Most of them have Foundry Cop official citations already listed in their reviews. And yet, there they sit, mocking you. There they remain, illustrating the simple fact that your personal preference is not company policy, and proving clearly that your arbitrary definitions of "grind" and "farm" and "cheat" do not match Cryptic's definitions of those terms.

Wish has said they aren't going to go down the road of trying to give a precise or exhaustive set of criteria to define the line between what they will tolerate and what they won't, because they don't want to invite people to simply play right up to that line, and they also obviously want to reserve the right to make judgment calls. So your claim that you "know" exactly what they mean by "grind" or "farm" or "cheat" is patently false, and silly, based on their own clear statements of their own policy. And even though they have specifically avoided setting out any precise formulas for where the line is, it's easy for anyone to read their statements, look at the missions in the system, observe the actions Cryptic has taken (and not taken), and figure out what it all means for authors. It clearly does not mean what you think it means.

But you can keep right on insisting that your personal taste is the law, and keep right on reporting these missions for making you a sad panda. And Cryptic will keep right on removing the missions that they actually consider a problem, and leaving the ones that they do not have an issue with.

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Yep, Wish said if you think a mission is a grind you should report it. So go report them. There are maybe 10 or 20 missions that you personally define as "grinds" in the system right now. Many of those have been there since Foundry went live.

Its not "my definition", it is the definition commonly accepted by video game players in general:

Grinding is a term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive and/or non-entertaining gameplay in order to gain access to other features within the game, or to allow the player to "grind" better/faster.[1][2] The most common usage is in the context of MMORPGs, such as Final Fantasy XI, World of ********, Tibia and Dragon Quest IX[3] in which it is often necessary for a character to repeatedly kill AI-controlled monsters, using basically the same strategy over and over again, in order to advance their character level to be able to access newer content.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grinding_(video_gaming)

Since you seem to disagree with the commonly accepted definition quoted above, I asked you earlier what your personal definition was. I'm still waiting on your answer.

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Heck, just create a holodeck room where a player can spawn enemies endlessly, one wave at a time, to their heart's content.
Unfortunately you can't just do a true cycle with the storyline editor, but I did see one mission that set the objectives up with some consoles you interact with, so you can choose to spawn a wave of one species from a list (each wave was actually five or six groups, in areas spread out around the map). Once you've spawned a wave of each species, then the objectives are all done and the mission completes, so there's not really a way to spawn just one more than once without restarting. But it's still a nice concept to put several species on the same map and let you select which ones you want, or do them in whatever order you want, and without the map transitions. Nice for comparing and tuning setups against different enemies.

There are also, of course, ones where groups are spread around and you have several maps to progress through, with each map being a different race. And there are also some where all the spawns are in the same spot, and they're spawned each when the previous one dies, rather than being all visible up front and just spread around in space. There are still limits to the number of objectives and maps you can have, so even if it appears to be a cycle, it's still a linear progression through a fixed number of elements.

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This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Atari Community Rules and Policies (http://forums.startrekonline.com/announcement.php?f=31&a=5) ~GM Tiyshen

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Many things in this world are made for a certain reason, but many people are able to derive something different from it. This is clear from the foundry issue. However, it is my belief that it is impossible to force everyone in the direction determined by the majority. After all, many exciting breakthroughs in the world have occurred because someone refused to listen (although many crimes as well).

I think Cryptic is already doing what they can but as paying players, everyone has the right to play the game as they see fit. And if you do not support the opposing views, be proud of what you believe in and continue to fight for it. However, if you are not a dev, you have limited authority on how things can be changed. So don't get too upset over these issues, just be happy playing the game as you like it :)

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I think Cryptic is already doing what they can but as paying players, everyone has the right to play the game as they see fit.


No they dont. As paying customers, people have the right to play the game only as long as they obey the rules. If they break the rules, then their "right" to play the game should be revoked.

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No they dont. As paying customers, people have the right to play the game only as long as they obey the rules. If they break the rules, then their "right" to play the game should be revoked.

oO Every time I read comments like this, I feel like listening to "We're in the army now" by Status Quo.

Yessir, we will turn off our brains, not think of solutions that lead to more freedom and enjoyment for all players and just obey. That's the usual way a game gets better.

(Which is why EVE e.g. has player representatives working with the devs... I guess they all get brainwashed once they reach Iceland)

Its a good forum, but splitting hairs and posting: "Obey" does not get anyone one step further.

No disrespect meant, Picard.

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Yessir, we will turn off our brains, not think of solutions that lead to more freedom and enjoyment for all players and just obey. That's the usual way a game gets better.


He's talking about obeying the rules, your talking about coming up with new ideas for the game. Those 2 things have nothing to do with one another.

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If you do not question rules and blindly obey them, you will not be able to voice new thoughts. Simple as that.

History-proven concept. Also one of the first principles they teach you in philosophy: To look at the status quo (not the band this time) and question it.

In some early online games, it was forbidden to take screenshots for some crazy reason. After some discussion, they were allowed. Perfect marketing... To illustrate what I meant.

To further illustrate, just look at some of the other postings made recently about RP places and City contest. Of course these are "exploits" since this wrapper mission was put in. Before that they were harmless.
Now, I think even your workaround will somehow turn out to be against the rules...

So go the obey way: "These are exploits, ban them"

While indeed they are the only feature that keep up the interest in STO for many players. The danger I see - vividly - is the Foundry "rules" getting too constrictive in the end.

And I think we are dancers, Velo...ciraptor