Enterprise-F Design Diary 1

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Didn't see a thread about it yet, but it's up here:

http://www.startrekonline.com/node/2466

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I personally think it looks spifferific.
(spiffy and terrific)

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The clay model looks pretty impressive.

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According to the author the saucer is supposed to be round like the Excelsior:

http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/9994/fullconcept.jpg

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I like what they did with the necks, the lines flow better than in the original drawing. I think the pylons and nacelle configuration is a bit too Sovereign, though. I think I'd like to see them moved in and up, like the original drawing. I do like the nacelles themselves, though, they look sleeker than the drawing.

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the clay model does look impressive :) the neck has been shortened (it looked weird in the original), and the nacelles look sleeker
as for the saucer, the J's was circular, while the E's was ovoid... the clay model is more round than the E's, and a little less forward, so that's part of the evolution i'm guessing

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I love it!!

The clay model they have looks reallly good.

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According to the author the saucer is supposed to be round like the Excelsior:

http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/9994/fullconcept.jpg

He seems fine with it though, well other than the nacelles:

http://trekbbs.com/showthread.php?p=5003315#post5003315

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Ahhh, this is lookin' pretty sweet. I really wanna see how they're gonna do the saucer sep now, heh.

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I wasn't crazy about this design at first. But now, seeing it in three dimensions, it's starting to grow on me. :D

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Agreed. The original drawings were "okay", but I'm glad that Cryptic's art department could see what the artist was wanting to do and made it "fit".

I'm excited to see it in-game.

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See! Everyone loves it with a 3D model instead of the simple black and white.

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Yup. Very rarely is the concept art exactly the same as the finished product.

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Ug, ug, ug! Ick, get the bad taste out of my mouth!

I have to say, I liked the concept drawing better than this, and you all know what I think of the concept drawing! *shudders*

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Yeap its looking worse and worse. But I hope the finished product can bring it to life. As of now... Im just gonna call it whatever class it ends up being. Never be the Enterprise.... to me.

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Ug, ug, ug! Ick, get the bad taste out of my mouth!

I have to say, I liked the concept drawing better than this, and you all know what I think of the concept drawing! *shudders*
it's just the basic 3D model: no textures or details yet... and therefore not even close to the final version

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...the dual necks moved the design into a concept that is reminiscent of the Oberth without a central neck.

Am I the only one who doesn't like this ship?

According to the makers of Star Trek III, and the people who designed the Grissom, the Oberth was intentionally designed to look ridiculous.

The new Enterprise should not share any similarities with a ship with 2 skinny necks holding it together, which was designed to get blown up with one shot by a Klingon Bird of Prey.

Stahl talks about how the new Enterprise is supposed to be this badass ship that could be the Federation flagship while they are at war with everyone on multiple fronts. Yet he then mentions that they went with this design partly because it was reminiscent of the ****ing Oberth class.

The refit Constitution Class is my favourite ship in Star Trek, though I have no complaints with the Enterprise's B through E. But this F, now that I have seen a 3D model of it, I doubt I will ever like.

And it's too bad, there were some very good entries for the "design the next Enterprise contest", but this was not one of them.

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Needless to say, the Alpha Quadrant is a very dangerous place in Star Trek Online and it needs a flagship that can represent Starfleet in a time of war. It needs a new Enterprise.

No offense, but what designer of a warship would put such obvious vulnerabilities into the design? You can use whatever Treknobable to justify it being safe, but those struts are just asking for hostiles to target it. Just taking out strut and the entire ship is compromised.

The design needed to show an evolution to existing Starfleet designs and in some way acknowledge that the Enterprise-J was coming in the future.

This confused me, where is the elements that lead to the J? :confused:


The Clay Model:

The saucer looks like it was directly ripped off the Sovereign and just narrowed the bow into more of an angular shape and then widened the saucer's shuttlebay at the rear.

The saucer struts from the front is rather unpleasent how it goes from horribily thick to a thin base. It is not elegant.

And not sure about all the mass of the Secondary Hull. Thought there was some unique twist to it.




For a moment when Ihle posted his new drawings on TrekBBS, I thought I could grow to like this. But this clay model just makes me think otherwise. This is not the Enterprise to me.

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Am I the only one who doesn't like this ship?

According to the makers of Star Trek III, and the people who designed the Grissom, the Oberth was intentionally designed to look ridiculous.

The new Enterprise should not share any similarities with a ship with 2 skinny necks holding it together, which was designed to get blown up with one shot by a Klingon Bird of Prey.

Stahl talks about how the new Enterprise is supposed to be this badass ship that could be the Federation flagship while they are at war with everyone on multiple fronts. Yet he then mentions that they went with this design partly because it was reminiscent of the ****ing Oberth class.

The refit Constitution Class is my favourite ship in Star Trek, though I have no complaints with the Enterprise's B through E. But this F, now that I have seen a 3D model of it, I doubt I will ever like.

And it's too bad, there were some very good entries for the "design the next Enterprise contest", but this was not one of them.

Speaking of good entries, can we get Madden's, Calloway's, and Wiexlmans as the fan favorite counterparts to this ship?

As for the sillyness of the Oberth-o-prise, that has been, and always will be my main complaint, and highest reason for my utter shame at seeing this ship in this game. Not only is it unsuited for the time it finds itself in, it's also based around the gimmick of a scout ship with a logical unmanned sensor array being held on by this method.

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No offense, but what designer of a warship would put such obvious vulnerabilities into the design? You can use whatever Treknobable to justify it being safe, but those struts are just asking for hostiles to target it. Just taking out strut and the entire ship is compromised.



This confused me, where is the elements that lead to the J? :confused:.

And yet for 150 or so years the majority of Star Fleet cruisers have had ONE rather thin neck - yet they did okay in combat. ;)

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Tweak out the Sovereign-itis from the impulse engines and nacelles, and I'll be a-ok on this design.

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I wish I would have known about the contest a friend of mine and I have been working on a design in our free time, no where close to finished, but I think looks better than the Oberth-O-prise.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8DqszOZh5U&feature=feedf

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The model looks remarkably similar to the concept design. And the necks are pretty much the same. They're doing a good job sticking to the concept drawing.

And I like this ship look. FINALLY something to replace the Excelsior at the top of the cruiser heap.

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No offense, but what designer of a warship would put such obvious vulnerabilities into the design? You can use whatever Treknobable to justify it being safe, but those struts are just asking for hostiles to target it. Just taking out strut and the entire ship is compromised.


Because it's not like any other starfleet ship had a neck, right? Oh, aside from the Constitution, Excelsior, Ambassador, Galaxy, etc. Oh wait, look at that, all those classes had a ship called "Enterprise" too. And let's face it, while we're on vulnerable necks, B'rels and K'tinga/D7s are far worse offenders. As are the Mogai and D'deridex. If anything, the fact it has two necks means it's the least "neck-vulnerable" ship we've seen so far. Star Trek is not known for practical looking starships. If you're that concerned about how practical looking a ship is, might I suggest a Battlestar?

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Because it's not like any other starfleet ship had a neck, right? Oh, aside from the Constitution, Excelsior, Ambassador, Galaxy, etc. Oh wait, look at that, all those classes had a ship called "Enterprise" too. And let's face it, while we're on vulnerable necks, B'rels and K'tinga/D7s are far worse offenders. As are the Mogai and D'deridex. If anything, the fact it has two necks means it's the least "neck-vulnerable" ship we've seen so far. Star Trek is not known for practical looking starships. If you're that concerned about how practical looking a ship is, might I suggest a Battlestar?

This is true, the Borg are probably the only faction who've made practical ships in all of Star Trek as well. :D

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To those against the split necks, may I suggest a bit of mind blowing awareness (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=&q=d%27deridex&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&biw=1488&bih=702) of how often you've already seen these types of ships? At least the evolution away from a fixed or distinguishable neck was shown in the Sovereign and the J, so this is just Starfleet's experimental phase.

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To those against the split necks, may I suggest a bit of mind blowing awareness (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=&q=d%27deridex&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&biw=1488&bih=702) of how often you've already seen these types of ships? At least the evolution away from a fixed or distinguishable neck was shown in the Sovereign and the J, so this is just Starfleet's experimental phase.

I just had a D'deridasm.:D

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I wish I would have known about the contest a friend of mine and I have been working on a design in our free time, no where close to finished, but I think looks better than the Oberth-O-prise.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8DqszOZh5U&feature=feedf

Now, that is a ship I could like.


Also, Oberth-O-prise, good name, I think I'll use that. First the Beeb's gave us the NX-01 Akira-prise, Now Cryptic is trying to push this "Oberth-O-prise" down our throats. What's next? The Daedalus-prise? The Botany Bay-aprise? How about from now on ship designers don't use obvious design features from other crappy Star Trek ships to make a new Enterprise, and make something original but still kind of resembles her predecessors.

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down our throats.

Implying we had no choice is incorrect. Every single one of the enterprise designs that made the top 25 (or whatever number) were voted into those select spots by the public. If the Oberth-o-prise is such a travesty, then it is an individual opinion that should not be expanded to a general statement on freedoms and the like.

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This is true, the Borg are probably the only faction who've made practical ships in all of Star Trek as well. :D

Except the borg ships were destroyed but thin necked ships, or humanoids that share a thin neck design.....

Now, that is a ship I could like.

Sorry I don't.

Because it's not like any other starfleet ship had a neck, right? Oh, aside from the Constitution, Excelsior, Ambassador, Galaxy, etc. Oh wait, look at that, all those classes had a ship called "Enterprise" too. And let's face it, while we're on vulnerable necks, B'rels and K'tinga/D7s are far worse offenders. As are the Mogai and D'deridex. If anything, the fact it has two necks means it's the least "neck-vulnerable" ship we've seen so far. Star Trek is not known for practical looking starships. If you're that concerned about how practical looking a ship is, might I suggest a Battlestar?

Agreed, but maybe a "serenity" style of crap design? Maybe a big blue police box? Heck we can just all fly the Millennium Falcon.

I'm ok with the current design, after all it just has to fit into a Iconic design style for ships called "Enterprise". Though they are Flagships, they are not warships, and hence their design reflects that. Cruisers.

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Implying we had no choice is incorrect. Every single one of the enterprise designs that made the top 25 (or whatever number) were voted into those select spots by the public. If the Oberth-o-prise is such a travesty, then it is an individual opinion that should not be expanded to a general statement on freedoms and the like.
uh... hate to break it to you... but the votes were only to be used in the case of a TIE... there wasn't a tie

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Someone once did the math. The neck of the Connie is about 20 feet wide. And it houses the WARP CORE. I fail to see how two necks, each approximately TWICE the width of the Connie, if the scale comparisons are followed through, are suddenly more vulnerable.

From a purely design aesthetic, moving to a floating saucer like this makes it easier to slowly phase out the engineering hull. On this ship the two sections, and their separation, are distinctly obvious. The one feature we lack, that really bothers me about the design, is the arrowhead saucer. I was hoping for more ovoid shape. Meh. Hopefully there are alternate saucers.

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And yet for 150 or so years the majority of Star Fleet cruisers have had ONE rather thin neck - yet they did okay in combat. ;)

And yet, with newer models after the Consitution, Starfleet made remedy of that flaw. Look at the thickness of the neck of the Excelsior, the Ambassador, and the Galaxy. Not to mention the lack of the neck of the Enterprise-E, which was made as a pure warship to counter the Borg.

Because it's not like any other starfleet ship had a neck, right? Oh, aside from the Constitution, Excelsior, Ambassador, Galaxy, etc. Oh wait, look at that, all those classes had a ship called "Enterprise" too. And let's face it, while we're on vulnerable necks, B'rels and K'tinga/D7s are far worse offenders. As are the Mogai and D'deridex. If anything, the fact it has two necks means it's the least "neck-vulnerable" ship we've seen so far. Star Trek is not known for practical looking starships. If you're that concerned about how practical looking a ship is, might I suggest a Battlestar?

This isn't a critique on every alien culture. We are talking specifically about Starfleet ships, not to mention THE ENTERPRISE.

Star Trek is not known for practical looking starships. If you're that concerned about how practical looking a ship is, might I suggest a Battlestar?

Please, indulge me. How is this design practical?

How is not going directly from the Saucer to Engineering practical? This is a warship, what about the weapon arcs? What about the Shuttlebay? Seems like if this is a warship the shuttlebay would be designed in a way that it protects shuttles as they approach, not have them out in the open.

To those against the split necks, may I suggest a bit of mind blowing awareness (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=&q=d%27deridex&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&biw=1488&bih=702) of how often you've already seen these types of ships? At least the evolution away from a fixed or distinguishable neck was shown in the Sovereign and the J, so this is just Starfleet's experimental phase.

I rather the Romulans deal with their design flaws, than us. :rolleyes:

I wish I would have known about the contest a friend of mine and I have been working on a design in our free time, no where close to finished, but I think looks better than the Oberth-O-prise.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8DqszOZh5U&feature=feedf

Rather like it. Sort of like a modern take of the Excelsior.


Implying we had no choice is incorrect. Every single one of the enterprise designs that made the top 25 (or whatever number) were voted into those select spots by the public.

Uh, that's not exactly true. :p

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Please keep in mind that the ship is going through an extensive amount of design and that this first dev diary represents the very first stage of development. You'll see over the next several diary entries how the ship design continues to evolve. Even as the ship gets closer to completion, I'm impressed by how we've been able to stay true to the initial design while visualizing all the aspects of the 3d model.

So stay tuned! more details to come...

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Someone once did the math. The neck of the Connie is about 20 feet wide. And it houses the WARP CORE. I fail to see how two necks, each approximately TWICE the width of the Connie, if the scale comparisons are followed through, are suddenly more vulnerable.

From a purely design aesthetic, moving to a floating saucer like this makes it easier to slowly phase out the engineering hull. On this ship the two sections, and their separation, are distinctly obvious. The one feature we lack, that really bothers me about the design, is the arrowhead saucer. I was hoping for more ovoid shape. Meh. Hopefully there are alternate saucers.

Yeah, except that the Warp Core is located in the engineering section... pretty much directly in line with the Pylons.. http://www.sttnf.com/constitution/con-cutaway.pdf

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Please keep in mind that the ship is going through an extensive amount of design and that this first dev diary represents the very first stage of development. You'll see over the next several diary entries how the ship design continues to evolve. Even as the ship gets closer to completion, I'm impressed by how we've been able to stay true to the initial design while visualizing all the aspects of the 3d model.

So stay tuned! more details to come...
will do dstahl :) and i love the work you and the team have been doing, not just to the Enterprise-F, but to the game in general
you guys rock :D

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Yeah, except that the Warp Core is located in the engineering section... pretty much directly in line with the Pylons.. http://www.sttnf.com/constitution/con-cutaway.pdf

I bow to your greater knowledge. I've heard, numerous times, that the warp core was in the neck. That being said, the ship is still only held together by 20 feet of crawlspace and a bit of armor. Scale-wise, it looks like the F's pylons, as it were, are about as thick as the neck of the Excelsior.

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So does this new ship class have a name?

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I like the design. Looking at the sketch I thought it had 4 necks, but 2 of them appeared to be rather hidden. With 2 or 4 I look at this ship as soemthing i might enjoy being captain of.

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Give us lots of parts to play with in the ship editor too, please! :)

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I would be cautious when using the term evolution. Let’s be sincere about our true feeling about the Enterprise. The only real sexy designs were the refit Constitution and Excelsior. The next generation Galaxy class was so ridiculous in its design that, when First Contact came out; the ship designers gave the new Sovereign class starship a look more akin to the first version of the Constitution class; not to mention they blew up the Enterprise-D in Generations. To advocate my points, the warp nacelles were again long and the deflector dish for some reason was gold, instead of blue. If you want to talk “Evolution,” look at JJ Abrams’ Enterprise. He fused both the movie and original Constitution class to create a new ship.

Another question, we should ask designers is why are there red bussard collectors following the Next Generation Arc. It has been widely assumed the Enterprise-A would have been blue; this was seen in the Enterprise-B and JJ Abrams version. I apologize for my bias but the only evolution I have truly seen in regards to Enterprise ship design is in the Movie Arc with the Excelsior Concept; not to mention that the Miranda class looks like a warship. For me the only great ships in the Next Generation Arc were the short-lived Ambassador class and the Defiant. If we want to create great looking Starfleet vessels, I suggest we construct somewhat retro designs based on the Movie Arcs and drop the Next Generation look. I think this Enterprise-F look is absurd and personally I am going to stick to the Enterprise-B if no other designs are constructed.

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Please keep in mind that the ship is going through an extensive amount of design and that this first dev diary represents the very first stage of development. You'll see over the next several diary entries how the ship design continues to evolve. Even as the ship gets closer to completion, I'm impressed by how we've been able to stay true to the initial design while visualizing all the aspects of the 3d model.

So stay tuned! more details to come...

True, but hope you keep our comments in mind. ;)

Yeah, except that the Warp Core is located in the engineering section... pretty much directly in line with the Pylons.. http://www.sttnf.com/constitution/con-cutaway.pdf

You should use the official cutaway that Doug Drexler used on Enterprise:

http://drexfiles.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/tos_cutaway_drexler_2.jpg

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I would be cautious when using the term evolution. Let’s be sincere about our true feeling about the Enterprise. The only real sexy designs were the refit Constitution and Excelsior. The next generation Galaxy class was so ridiculous in its design that, when First Contact came out; the ship designers gave the new Sovereign class starship a look more akin to the first version of the Constitution class; not to mention they blew up the Enterprise-D in Generations. To advocate my points, the warp nacelles were again long and the deflector dish for some reason was gold, instead of blue. If you want to talk “Evolution,” look at JJ Abrams’ Enterprise. He fused both the movie and original Constitution class to create a new ship.

Another question, we should ask designers is why are there red bussard collectors following the Next Generation Arc. It has been widely assumed the Enterprise-A would have been blue; this was seen in the Enterprise-B and JJ Abrams version. I apologize for my bias but the only evolution I have truly seen in regards to Enterprise ship design is in the Movie Arc with the Excelsior Concept; not to mention that the Miranda class looks like a warship. For me the only great ships in the Next Generation Arc were the short-lived Ambassador class and the Defiant. If we want to create great looking Starfleet vessels, I suggest we construct somewhat retro designs based on the Movie Arcs and drop the Next Generation look. I think this Enterprise-F look is absurd and personally I am going to stick to the Enterprise-B if no other designs are constructed.
you may not like the next generation look, and you may think that the only sexy ships were the constitution refit and the excelsior, but not everything thinks your way
we all have different opinions, and we are being sincere about them (there wouldn't be this much passion about it otherwise)

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It looks like a sovie with sideburns. adding sideburns doesn't seem like a significant enough change/ungrade to warrant the new enterprise.

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I have one real big issue with the design. How do you get from the saucer section to "body" part? This is the same problem I have with the Oberth. Set aside this one looks good and imho the Oberth is fugly. Turboslifts in this side the seem to be hard because there just isn't much space. A crew of 500 or more moving through this small pylons seems a bit of a pain. Using site to site transport might be a possibility but considering that transporters take some significant energy I don't see them used in excess. Additionaly it might be a problem in combat situations while beaming inside the shields should be no problem the transporters might get damaged quite fast. Anybody has an idea how this dilemma is being solved?

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I have one real big issue with the design. How do you get from the saucer section to "body" part? This is the same problem I have with the Oberth. Set aside this one looks good and imho the Oberth is fugly. Turboslifts in this side the seem to be hard because there just isn't much space. A crew of 500 or more moving through this small pylons seems a bit of a pain. Using site to site transport might be a possibility but considering that transporters take some significant energy I don't see them used in excess. Additionaly it might be a problem in combat situations while beaming inside the shields should be no problem the transporters might get damaged quite fast. Anybody has an idea how this dilemma is being solved?

Look at the scale. Those aren't your daddy's neck pylons. Each one, if done to the artist's scale, should be in the neighborhood of an Excelsior's neck thick.

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I have one real big issue with the design. How do you get from the saucer section to "body" part? This is the same problem I have with the Oberth. Set aside this one looks good and imho the Oberth is fugly. Turboslifts in this side the seem to be hard because there just isn't much space. A crew of 500 or more moving through this small pylons seems a bit of a pain. Using site to site transport might be a possibility but considering that transporters take some significant energy I don't see them used in excess. Additionaly it might be a problem in combat situations while beaming inside the shields should be no problem the transporters might get damaged quite fast. Anybody has an idea how this dilemma is being solved?
the enterprise-J used site-to-site transporters, so it could be a possibility
and also, i'm not sure it costs that much energy... data used a finger-sized prototype to beam captain picard back to the ship in Nemesis... so i think they cut the cost a bit by now, since it's 30 years after Nemesis

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I bow to your greater knowledge. I've heard, numerous times, that the warp core was in the neck. That being said, the ship is still only held together by 20 feet of crawlspace and a bit of armor. Scale-wise, it looks like the F's pylons, as it were, are about as thick as the neck of the Excelsior.

The TMP-Connie refit has its warp core in the neck. Or part of it, at any rate. The blue glowy part just forward of the impulse exhaust (impulse deflection crystal) is the top of the shaft, which extends down through the neck all the way down to the bottom of the ship. Main Engineering is where the Matter/Antimatter sections of the warp core shaft comes together into the intermix chamber where power is channeled down the aft of the ship and out to the nacelles, as well as up the shaft to power the impulse engines. Pretty much all Federation ships after the TMP era use a similar configuration.

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The Enterprise-J using site to site transports makes sense because this ship is f****** huge. Much larger than the UFP employs in 2409. As is see it it is not much bigger than a Sovereign. Maybe 50m longer and the same increase in height. The pylony might be big enough to support a reasonable amount of turbolifts but it is still a quite odd idea making a hole in your ship as these areas are thin compared to the rest of the ship and quite vulnerable this thing. Though I must admit it looks good.

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Looks better than I thought. Good job so far!

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Honestly i didnt care to much for it but after the clay models im kinda starting to see it as a new Enterprise. The only thing i dont like are the necelles i think should ride up closer to the saucer section and be alittle wider also the saucer itself should be more rounded. As far as flawed design maybe its meant to be built with the necks like that to give a better ability to have saucer seperation. I mean honestly they hit the neck wouldnt it be easy enough to just say seperate and lets target aggressor. Seems like it be alot easier and take alot less time with that design to do saucer seperation then with the Enterprise-D or E could.

Honestly as far as game play goes if this ship is made available to players only thing im sure i wont like is its turn rate lol. Keep up the good work cryptic,

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The Enterprise-J using site to site transports makes sense because this ship is f****** huge. Much larger than the UFP employs in 2409. As is see it it is not much bigger than a Sovereign. Maybe 50m longer and the same increase in height. The pylony might be big enough to support a reasonable amount of turbolifts but it is still a quite odd idea making a hole in your ship as these areas are thin compared to the rest of the ship and quite vulnerable this thing. Though I must admit it looks good.

So I got curious. Here's three ships. The newest, the last, and the most recent in profile, per the original artist's scale. All I did was a copypast out of the artwork in the Dev Diary.

http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii231/Farmer42/Untitled.png

I can fit the better part of a connie in the length difference. So yea, in scale they might be a bit thin. But that's relative, when they're as long as the Connie's saucer.

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Saucer and Hull look just fat IMO
The Nacelles look too long and narrow, while the pylons look too fragile IMHO.
TBH i like the two neck design, it's something different for a change.

I would prefer if it would look more like this:
http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=4954783&postcount=1309
Sleek, elegant and yet powerful looking.

I just hope that they don't add too much Noble class like angles, holes and silly armor plates on that design.


Live long and prosper.

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I love it!

One thing though: the engineering hull is unusually large compared to other Federation designs. I don't mind this, but I do hope they try to come up with an explanation for why the engineering hull is so large. Maybe it has more matter/antimatter chambers for more power? Space for modular components allowing for greater mission flexibility? (e.g. the superstructure on top of the primary/engineering hull on the Nebula class).

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hmm...

the first concept pic looked to me like a mix between galaxy and ambassador with a oberth neck mixed in

the latest pic looks to me more like a mix of Sovereign and Galaxy class with a too fat oberth neck from the front angle

the shape of the saucer is a little odd (not round enough in the front)

i still can't see what saucer sep will be like from this?
i hope Cryptic is still going for saucer sep, thats the most intresting part of the whole thing.

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looks good, cant wait to see it in more detail.

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i'd be sold IF

1 the space between the twin necks was filled in in some way, so there wouldn’t be a twin neck lol

2 if the back half of the saucer wasn’t exactly like the sovereign’s

3 the main saucer phaser arrays NEED to be 1 solid strip, and extremely long, longer than the galaxy's.


the longer the array is, the more room there is to connect power to it, allowing more power to be available to put into each shot. we know this is happening because of the charge effect that moves across the array before it finally discharges. small arrays only are long enough to have a single power source connected to them, but longer arrays have several, the galaxy might have 15 or 20 power conduits connected to it's main arrays. With them, it can fire shots that are potentially 15-20 times more powerful than one of its small aft stips could!

now this doesn’t have to all the sudden make a difference in game (though i wish it did), but if even this new enterprise still didn’t have bigger guns than a galaxy class I’d never be able to take it seriously just like i cant take serious all the other ships you guys have designs that have shrimpy, tiny strips up front. fix those ships next if you can, stretch the arrays on some of those ships the best you can.

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Im pretty ok with the twin necks. First, having two necks doesnt necessarily mean its less structurally sound or a weak point in combat. If you built each neck a frame and with a SIF strong enough to support the saucer section, then both act as a redundancy to reduce the chance of the ship being split in half by damage. It is actually marginally better than having one neck with a single structural frame, even though it 'looks' flimsy.

Second, those necks, when put in perspective with other ships of the line, are massive. Its the same thing as with the J, when people said that the J's struts looked weak and flimsy, when they were at least as thick as a connie's engineering hull, if not thicker, when compared in scale.

Third, we fans often overlook specs and explain things away by pointing out on-screen information, but the reverse is also true. On-screen information tells us that SIF fields are extremely strong, and can keep a ship together even when structural damage would shatter the ship the moment the field is shutdown. I can recall off-hand some examples, like Voyager in the year of hell episodes, or when Enterprise-E's nacelles collided with the broken wing of a warbird in Nemesis. In fact, when the ship rammed the Scimitar, you'd expect that the struts would break from the momentum in a real collision, thin as they are.

Fourth, if this ship is setup for saucer seperation, then even losing integrity in its necks is merely an inconvenience, not a crippling situation.


At least we discuss it civilly though. From the sound of it, Adam received alot of hatemail over his win. Its one thing to say you dont really like the design, and another to insult/threaten/harrass the designer.

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I really do not see an evolution in the design. If you are talking about evolution in design you have far better suited ships created in STO. The Avenger class etc. suits far more for the role you pretend Starfleet to be pursuing on.

The Excelsior had the major purpose to introduce Transwarp drives.
The Galaxy had been designed to mark an era of long term exploration and thus allowing families (social aspects) to be carried on.
The Sovereign was designed to be an answer to the Borg threat.

Other design concepts:
The Defiant was designed to be a direct and "cheap producable" heavy hitting boat to face the Borg.
The Intrepid was designed to be an answer to advanced scientific explorative mission in combination with introduction of the new warp field design.


After the collapse of the Khitomer Accords, the Federation was drawn into war once again with the Klingon Empire. The Romulan Empire is itself facing a civil war and rumors surface that they have been toying with a deadly new technology. As if that wasn’t enough, the Alpha Quadrant Dominion have been rebuilding their forces with help from renegade “True Way” Cardassians in direct violation of the Treaty of Bajor. And then there’s the Borg…

According to that design comment it would be a battleship and nothing more. So, where is the evolution of Starfleet exactly?
The funny thing is the structural design is its weakest spot. If this ship is indeed a battleship a clear torpedo strike to the neck holding parts is enough to cripple this ship to the ground. And let us be honest here. Every true captain would know to target the weakest spot. And this is the neck. Remember when Khan needed just one phaser salvo to cripple the Enterprise to its knees? What would a torpedo do?

Of course one would say the ship is advanced, has shields etc. Come on. The enemy is not a stupid sleeping dog. In times of transphasic torpedoes accessable by Klingons, Borg shield drainers and a cutting beam and the ship is gone. So much for "Here is our Starfleets finest!".
I see Klingons, Breen, Borg, Undine etc. laughing at this "answer" and calling it: Enterprise-F "ragged".

This is not to blame Adam. It is a good design and he has been very creative. Amazing job. I would love to see his ship in the game and he deserves all the recognition for it. I just do not feel it is suitable as the Enterprise, exactly because we are kept in the dark and getting no answers to what happend to Data and the Enterprise-E. I think many people really care about the detailes. It's one of Star Trek's strenghts. But the lack of information on the lore dissappoints me at the most.

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To be realistic The Sovereign is a break in the design cycle of the "Enterprise" line. Since the Sov was developed while the D was still in service and the E was most likely a renamed ship used as a replacement.

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Look everyone who are being very vocally against this needs to just stop! It's not that I'm trying to sequester your right to voice but it's just nasty in many ways. The artist who made this must have been thrilled to have won. He got to design the next enterprise, that's quite a confidence booster for anyone. But you know what, all he got was negative and nasty comments in return to the point that he doesn't seem to want to have anything to do with this.

Look i'll tell you, when I first saw who won, I was disappointed. Not because it was a bad design (I thought that's why) but because I didn't win, which is what I expect many of us thought. But now seeing the 3-D design by Cryptic, and then looking back at the original sketch, I actually like it. It's a unique interesting design that actually suits the next enterprise.

Besides, if you don't like it, there are plenty of more letters in the alphabet....

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egads that thing is ugly. It should look elegant...that thing looks like a beached whale...

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Look everyone who are being very vocally against this needs to just stop! It's not that I'm trying to sequester your right to voice but it's just nasty in many ways. The artist who made this must have been thrilled to have won. He got to design the next enterprise, that's quite a confidence booster for anyone. But you know what, all he got was negative and nasty comments in return to the point that he doesn't seem to want to have anything to do with this.

Look i'll tell you, when I first saw who won, I was disappointed. Not because it was a bad design (I thought that's why) but because I didn't win, which is what I expect many of us thought. But now seeing the 3-D design by Cryptic, and then looking back at the original sketch, I actually like it. It's a unique interesting design that actually suits the next enterprise.

Besides, if you don't like it, there are plenty of more letters in the alphabet....

When you put your "art" out for the world to see, you better be a big enough boy/girl to take the bad comments as well as the good.

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all i see is hatred for something different and truely evolutionary.

everyone is claiming its weak or its not a true evolution....but mainly because alot of these people were cheering on the ONE design that was nothing more then an updated version of the Connie...funny how people claim they want the next step but support the design that was deevolving...

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I still prefer a no neck design because it is more structurally sound, my opinion. I hope they do stream line it. Enterprise-F should still be a battle ship like E is, especially with all the chaos going on in STO universe.

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When you put your "art" out for the world to see, you better be a big enough boy/girl to take the bad comments as well as the good.

True, and as an artist myself I understand that. But you also have to understand there's a difference between it being mixed opinions and just one side being extremely vocal. What if you won and I said "The idiot who designed that should be smacked in the face"? You wouldn't like it yet i've actually read a few comments like that.

Criticism is a great thing, it helps growth when done right, but not if it's the kid in the corner that complains about everything.

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I'll just clarify my position and likely a lot of other peoples too. This is not a dig on the artist, I'm sure he is quite talented. I (We) just don't like his design or that Cryptic chose it over some designs we consider much better.

I will just reiterate what I said previously, when you put your art out for the world to see, you better have a thick enough skin to be able to handle when people don't like it.

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Look everyone who are being very vocally against this needs to just stop! It's not that I'm trying to sequester your right to voice but it's just nasty in many ways. The artist who made this must have been thrilled to have won. He got to design the next enterprise, that's quite a confidence booster for anyone. But you know what, all he got was negative and nasty comments in return to the point that he doesn't seem to want to have anything to do with this.

Its fine to discuss it in a reasonable manner and disagree with the design. Like issues with the twin necks and whatnot. But to see so many posts bashing it without reason just on these forums, i can only imagine just how much hatemail and flack adam got from other sectors.

I dont think he 'abandoned' his design because of negative feedback. It sounds more like he got threats, insults, etc. Which i unfortunately do believe Star Trek fans ARE capable of. Its no different from the kind the tv crew got during the Enterprise series when it was still airing.

Which just serves to reinforce my image of the majority of die-hard star trek fans as merely fans of 'My Trek', not 'Star Trek'.

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I'll just clarify my position and likely a lot of other peoples too. This is not a dig on the artist, I'm sure he is quite talented. I (We) just don't like his design or that Cryptic chose it over some designs we consider much better.

I will just reiterate what I said previously, when you put your art out for the world to see, you better have a thick enough skin to be able to handle when people don't like it.

except...hes a very successful artist...which means he more then likely has tough skin..but that doesnt change the fact that when it was announced...the STO community was in an uproar and i remember vividly seeing outright insults towards the artist and not criticism on the art....your not clarifying anything your just trying to clean up the ugly image the STO community has created for itself.

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Look everyone who are being very vocally against this needs to just stop! It's not that I'm trying to sequester your right to voice but it's just nasty in many ways. The artist who made this must have been thrilled to have won. He got to design the next enterprise, that's quite a confidence booster for anyone. But you know what, all he got was negative and nasty comments in return to the point that he doesn't seem to want to have anything to do with this.

Look i'll tell you, when I first saw who won, I was disappointed. Not because it was a bad design (I thought that's why) but because I didn't win, which is what I expect many of us thought. But now seeing the 3-D design by Cryptic, and then looking back at the original sketch, I actually like it. It's a unique interesting design that actually suits the next enterprise.

Besides, if you don't like it, there are plenty of more letters in the alphabet....

There always be someone against the design no matter at you or any one else will say, that is how the world is. I am not excited about the new ship. When Enterprise-E first started coming out before the movie it first appeared in I was excited. Cryptic may or may not be able to get everyone excited about the Enterprise-J.

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except...hes a very successful artist...which means he more then likely has tough skin..but that doesnt change the fact that when it was announced...the STO community was in an uproar and i remember vividly seeing outright insults towards the artist and not criticism on the art....your not clarifying anything your just trying to clean up the ugly image the STO community has created for itself.

Well I haven't followed this thing that closely because...well I just don't care that much about what the next Big E is going to look like in this game that has no bearing on Trek canon.

If people were attacking th artist personally or harassing him off of the trek forums then they need to shut of the computer and the TV and go outside, nowhere did you see defend these actions.

At the same time I see people who dislike this design being lumped into the same group you are describing.

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Well I haven't followed this thing that closely because...well I just don't care that much about what the next Big E is going to look like in this game that has no bearing on Trek canon.

If people were attacking th artist personally or harassing him off of the trek forums then they need to shut of the computer and the TV and go outside, nowhere did you see defend these actions.

At the same time I see people who dislike this design being lumped into the same group you are describing.

you lumped yourself in there when you said "I (We)"...as in your speaking for those against it...

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I have to say all in all I like what I see. The hull looks to big and overall it is just too round. I'm missing some edges and corners. Hopefully they come in the next version.

Anyway... is it a Star Trek Ship? Yes.
Is it the next Enterprise? We will see.

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Well I haven't followed this thing that closely because...well I just don't care that much about what the next Big E is going to look like in this game that has no bearing on Trek canon.

If people were attacking th artist personally or harassing him off of the trek forums then they need to shut of the computer and the TV and go outside, nowhere did you see defend these actions.

At the same time I see people who dislike this design being lumped into the same group you are describing.

It's the problem that all passionate fans have. They have an exact image for something about Trek and they will go crazy over it if there's something wrong. I normally don't feel as bad for the artist as I do for them. However when it reaches hate mail level, then it's not only crazy, it should be considered as bad as a threat.

I'm not trying to lump those who dislike it and the "passionate" but the problem is since they're so vocal it's naturally going to happen.

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Its fine to discuss it in a reasonable manner and disagree with the design. Like issues with the twin necks and whatnot. But to see so many posts bashing it without reason just on these forums, i can only imagine just how much hatemail and flack adam got from other sectors.

I dont think he 'abandoned' his design because of negative feedback. It sounds more like he got threats, insults, etc. Which i unfortunately do believe Star Trek fans ARE capable of. Its no different from the kind the tv crew got during the Enterprise series when it was still airing.

Which just serves to reinforce my image of the majority of die-hard star trek fans as merely fans of 'My Trek', not 'Star Trek'.

I am not a big fan of the design, but hate mail or threats just stupid and immature. I do agree there are probable people out there that would do such a thing. The author of the design does deserve congratulation for winning the contest and for contributing his interesting design. People do need to what to see what cryptic does with the design before deciding if it deserves the right to be called Enterprise to them.

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you lumped yourself in there when you said "I (We)"...as in your speaking for those against it...

Interesting that you chopped all the relevant parts of that sentence and paragraph out to try to make your point.

Lets have a rerun of it in it's entirety...

I'll just clarify my position and likely a lot of other peoples too. This is not a dig on the artist, I'm sure he is quite talented. I (We) just don't like his design or that Cryptic chose it over some designs we consider much better.

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Although the model is impressive, no disrespect to the creator nor cryptic intended, but i still dont like it.

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I gotta be honest, I am starting to warm up to the design. I really rather disliked the original sketch and the necks still look way too flimsy to me... but Cryptic's rough model is definitely a step in the right direction. I do like the back and top views very much. Just not loving the side and frontal views due to the odd neck.

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There is a difference in giving an honest opinion over someone's work & just being overly critical. To be honest, I didn't care for the twin-neck design either. But in looking at the 3D model, there's alot of potential there. From the design itself I only have two comments:

1) The neck: The 3D model shows thicker necks now. Considering it would be a weak point ... why not make them thicker? Looking at the design from the front, if you thicken the necks to appear as if it's one neck, while in the back you'd see there's actually two necks. That would stick to the orginal concept while tending to the argument of the twin necks being a major weakpoint.

2) The pylons & nacelles: I'm sorry, but they're just too thin compared to the rest of the ship. I believe if you give them a little more "meat," they should fit quite nicely.

I also want to point out that it's possible to give a ship of that size a more sleek look just from finishing out the details & textures. I actually like the saucer shape & the engineering section. Ultimately, this ship will make a good addition to the Enterprise lineage.

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I like it. It is as deserving of the name Enterprise as an Excelsior ever was. It is a lot less awkward looking than either the Excelsior or Ambassador and has a certain elegance that makes it appealing. I'd fly one it it weren't going to be a cruiser. :(

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Am I the only one who doesn't like this ship?

...

Stahl talks about how the new Enterprise is supposed to be this badass ship that could be the Federation flagship while they are at war with everyone on multiple fronts. Yet he then mentions that they went with this design partly because it was reminiscent of the ****ing Oberth class.

The refit Constitution Class is my favourite ship in Star Trek, though I have no complaints with the Enterprise's B through E. But this F, now that I have seen a 3D model of it, I doubt I will ever like.

And it's too bad, there were some very good entries for the "design the next Enterprise contest", but this was not one of them.

MrJ, I believe all the real Star Trek fans agree with you on this. While trying to be polite as possible, this ship as the next Enterprise is a terrible, terrible mistake.

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MrJ, I believe all the real Star Trek fans agree with you on this. While trying to be polite as possible, this ship as the next Enterprise is a terrible, terrible mistake.

I agree as well

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Interesting that you chopped all the relevant parts of that sentence and paragraph out to try to make your point.

Lets have a rerun of it in it's entirety...

you claimed that you were being thrown in with that crowd....when indeed you yourself put yourself in that crowd by stating "WE" obviously i dont have to quote every bit of your statement to point at what i was getting at now do i?

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Oh yes the "real" Star Trek fans as opposed to people who have watched every episode of every show along with every movie multiple times, read hundreds of novels, played thousands of hours of games, and happen to like this ship. Those people aren't "real" fans at all. Only the people who agree with you are "real" fans.

::goes off muttering before he gets impolite::

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MrJ, I believe all the real Star Trek fans agree with you on this. While trying to be polite as possible, this ship as the next Enterprise is a terrible, terrible mistake.

I suppose I'm no longer a real star trek fan now. :rolleyes:

Overarching statements like this are simply rude and uncalled for. It is possible to disagree and critique without insulting other people... seriously its really not that hard.

I like the design although I'm not completely in love with it. I think that its good but they need to take out the soverign-itis that it seems to be heading towards in this mockup. Personally I am growing more fond of the orignal designers warp ring saucer separate concept but I doubt that it will be used here with the direction that its heading into.

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MrJ, I believe all the real Star Trek fans agree with you on this. While trying to be polite as possible, this ship as the next Enterprise is a terrible, terrible mistake.

Don't assume your own personal, negative opinions allow you to speak on behalf of "real" Star Trek fans, because you certainly don't speak for me. I've been a fan of Star Trek for far too long to tolerate that nonsense. I can remember the initial reactions of people when the Enterprise-D came onto the scene, & their opinions changed with time. I see this as being no different.

The Enterprise-F has been chosen & is on its way, whether you like it or not.

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Personally I like the design. I've watched all the series, read a number of the books, played StarFleet battles etc. There is nothing wrong with this design at all and in fact I've seen "canon" ships that I like a whole lot less (insert Oberth here). So I say "bravo" to the designers from a Trek "fan"

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all i see is hatred for something different and truely evolutionary.

everyone is claiming its weak or its not a true evolution....but mainly because alot of these people were cheering on the ONE design that was nothing more then an updated version of the Connie...funny how people claim they want the next step but support the design that was deevolving...

I don't at all see how this is evolutionary. No insult to the modellers at Cryptic of course; I just don't think they were given much to work with in the 'winning' design.

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Please, indulge me. How is this design practical?

How is not going directly from the Saucer to Engineering practical? This is a warship, what about the weapon arcs? What about the Shuttlebay? Seems like if this is a warship the shuttlebay would be designed in a way that it protects shuttles as they approach, not have them out in the open.


I'll do you a deal, I'll indulge you if you bother read my post properly this time, if you had before you'd realise I was calling it impractical. The only thing I did call practical was the battlestar (i.e. Galactica), which I mentioned as a counterpoint to the seemingly flimsy looking (by comparison) ships in Star Trek. Defiants and Cubes notwithstanding of course.

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I don't like the ship. It is ugly. Most people I saw thought it was ugly for a while. Now so many people want it. I am disappointed.

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How can people consider the dual necks of this design "flimsy" and not the neck of the original Constitution? I have always thought the original Enterprise looked like it would fold in on itself. The Connie's neck is too small for the relative size of the saucer section that it supports ... but that is were the SIFs become involved. By comparison, the new design's dual necks are bigger proportionally than the Connie's, and they provide a redundancy that the Connie didn't have have.

That said, I do like the original Connie. However, it was far from being a practical, robust design. The new design seems much better in that regard than the original in my opinion.

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How can people consider the dual necks of this design "flimsy" and not the neck of the original Constitution? I have always thought the original Enterprise looked like it would fold in on itself. The Connie's neck is too small for the relative size of the saucer section that it supports ... but that is were the SIFs become involved. By comparison, the new design's dual necks are bigger proportionally than the Connie's, and they provide a redundancy that the Connie didn't have have.

That said, I do like the original Connie. However, it was far from being a practical, robust design. The new design seems much better in that regard than the original in my opinion.

I agree, while it's still not as sturdy as I'd design a starship, I think it does look like a tough ship. It manages to look sleek but heavy. In the same way ships like Warspite and Tirpitz were sleek, but HEAVY.:cool:

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How can a ship be flimsy? They are in space. Gravity is not going to be shifting the neck around. And I'm sure that they have stronger minerals/alloys to build ships with.

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I just had a D'deridasm.:D

that made my day lol.....

ok so on topic for me. the clay model does look better, and is bringing it to a point that im feeling better about it overall.. the ship looks sexy from the top, from the side, and from an angled back view, however, it looks god, awfull, i mean so bad that i dont like it at all, from the front angle... star trek ships have always been known for being sleek, and having a flow to them... when you look at the dead on front view, the necks make this thing look boxy, bulky, and awkward. the ship looks great from every other angle, it has great lines, great flow, and very sleek.

i dont know, this is just my opinion, i cant be the only one who thinks this ship looks like a brick from the front....

otherwise, its getting there...

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How can a ship be flimsy? They are in space. Gravity is not going to be shifting the neck around. And I'm sure that they have stronger minerals/alloys to build ships with.

Gravity isn't the issue. Shearing forces are though. A single thin neck like the original Connie would have huge problems with maneuvers going side to side.

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How can a ship be flimsy? They are in space. Gravity is not going to be shifting the neck around. And I'm sure that they have stronger minerals/alloys to build ships with.

I was thinking more of enemy actions than gravity, as for the engineering aspects of things: If I make a flimsy shape out of alluminium and it falls apart, but try again with titanium and it works, that's great. But if I make a sturdy shape out of the titanium, it'll be even stronger than that.

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I was thinking more of enemy actions than gravity, as for the engineering aspects of things: If I make a flimsy shape out of alluminium and it falls apart, but try again with titanium and it works, that's great. But if I make a sturdy shape out of the titanium, it'll be even stronger than that.

Thus ships like the Saber, Defiant, and Sovereign.

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Thus ships like the Saber, Defiant, and Sovereign.

and the nova, intrepid, nebula, akira, luna, steamrunner , enterprise j.

they all got rid of the heavy saucer ontop of a neck of anysorts..

that was my biggest arguemnet to this new enterprise... when they released the idea of the contest, they said they wanted something with forward thinking, something between the soveriegn and the ent. j. this ship looks like it went backwards... every ship since the galaxy class has been designed without any neck. even the ent. j does not have a neck. even the cryptic designed ships that are ingame have no neck... this ship (even though im starting to like how it looks with the new clay mesh) is a thumb among fingers in the fleet. in my personal opinion, this ship did not fallow the guidelines of the contest, nor the design flow that starfleet has been using. this is my biggest problem with this ship.. its not weather its ugly or not, you have to look at it from the point of view as do you see starfleet designing a ship like this in 2409... heres my example...

starfleet makes the largest starfleet vessel, the galaxy. several years later, they say, whoa, this ship uses too many resources, and has a few design flaws... ( purely speculative, but is supported by the fact that necks disapear from every starfleet designed ship hence forth). ie, the neck. its a large target, and when compramised, the saucer can collapse right into the stardrive, or worse yet, the deflector dish (we all know from star trek first contact that that could be a big boom lol)...

so starfleet designs the nebula since the galaxy had alot of good things going for it....

several years later, they introduce the fallowing ships, the defiant, the intrepid, the akira, the sabre, the steamrunner, the luna, the sovreign, and the nova.

all of these ships have a few different design notes to themm
1. they all lack a neck. no ship after the galaxy was produced with a neck...
2. they are all smaller, including the sovreign, (while the sovreign is longer, its mass is significantly less than that of a galaxy...
3. all the ships are modular. (with the exception of the sovreign class, all the ships are for the most part smaller, more manuverable, and with the ocasional weapons pod, or deflector pod, eveything is attached to the main hull...

then cryptic designed some 2409 ships, you have the escort (malestrom) the dssv and the starcruiser. all of these ships seem to for the most part fallow the direction starfleet went in after the galaxy. they have no necks, and they are fairly modular.

now, this new federation ship shows up, and not only has 1 neck, but two... it is (from what ive read) gonna be a huge ship, and does not look like it is a step between the sovreign and the j..

am i the only one who has this thought?

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When you put your "art" out for the world to see, you better be a big enough boy/girl to take the bad comments as well as the good.
Bad comments are one thing, most what I have read has been hate mail, and some of it borderline slander. So much so, Storm and other GM handed out a ton of infractions and some bannings over it. So those that are open minded are simply reminding all, no excuse for not being mannerly. This is a choice, when we voice out opinions, understand there are consequences for what we say, we are liable for those words.

all i see is hatred for something different and truely evolutionary.

everyone is claiming its weak or its not a true evolution....but mainly because alot of these people were cheering on the ONE design that was nothing more then an updated version of the Connie...funny how people claim they want the next step but support the design that was deevolving...
agreed, while some of the other designs were "Artistically" impressive, it did not meet the cryteria that was outlined by DStahl in the summation.
Understand they are the judges, we got to vote, but the rules stated clearly they would be the judges, and popular vote would ONLY be used if no clear winner was selected. This was not the case.

I still prefer a no neck design because it is more structurally sound, my opinion. I hope they do stream line it. Enterprise-F should still be a battle ship like E is, especially with all the chaos going on in STO universe.
on scaling these 2 close to each other, a Standard Sovereign is about 681 meters long, the F is in at about 730-750 meters in length. Looking at this, that would make those neck Pylons, roughly about 20-25 meters across at their thinest point. Meters, not feet folks. that is roughly about 58-75 feet across, at their thinest point.
True, and as an artist myself I understand that. But you also have to understand there's a difference between it being mixed opinions and just one side being extremely vocal. What if you won and I said "The idiot who designed that should be smacked in the face"? You wouldn't like it yet i've actually read a few comments like that.

Criticism is a great thing, it helps growth when done right, but not if it's the kid in the corner that complains about everything.
well, you simply have to look who is doing the complaining and simply review their history with a simply search and you can see who to take serious, and who simply chronically complains. Use the "Search" feature and the person name to see if they are being reasonable, or if they have a history of "chronic" complaints. Each persons credibility stands on that. Those that I find in research who have this history i simply choose not to reply to them, most dont.
Those that call the names, yeah its just outright slander, plain and simple.
I'll just clarify my position and likely a lot of other peoples too. This is not a dig on the artist, I'm sure he is quite talented. I (We) just don't like his design or that Cryptic chose it over some designs we consider much better.

I will just reiterate what I said previously, when you put your art out for the world to see, you better have a thick enough skin to be able to handle when people don't like it.
Hey thanks for the clarification, however I remind you as well, one thing to not like something, another to slander the artist personally. Most I have read, not from you just for clarification, which has lead to a ton of infractions here and on other boards are more personal. As an artist its one thing for folks to say, I dont like it/hate it, it sucks, etc. Its completely diferent to state "You xxxx", "the artist is a...", "What %#@$ design this..." etc. those are personal attacks. So pardon some of us as well Condundrum for being a touch sensitive over some of the extreme silliness that those that come to these forums have posted in that form. My apologies over being "sensitive" to that, and Hey, thanks for the clarification. Many can learn from that.

Remember folks, its ok not to like it, and its ok to like the design.
Its NOT ok to forget to be civil and mannerly in our discussions with each other over it.
It IS ok to agree to disagree.

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and the nova, intrepid, nebula, akira, luna, steamrunner , enterprise j.

they all got rid of the heavy saucer ontop of a neck of anysorts..

that was my biggest arguemnet to this new enterprise... when they released the idea of the contest, they said they wanted something with forward thinking, something between the soveriegn and the ent. j. this ship looks like it went backwards... every ship since the galaxy class has been designed without any neck. even the ent. j does not have a neck. even the cryptic designed ships that are ingame have no neck... this ship (even though im starting to like how it looks with the new clay mesh) is a thumb among fingers in the fleet. in my personal opinion, this ship did not fallow the guidelines of the contest, nor the design flow that starfleet has been using. this is my biggest problem with this ship.. its not weather its ugly or not, you have to look at it from the point of view as do you see starfleet designing a ship like this in 2409... heres my example...

starfleet makes the largest starfleet vessel, the galaxy. several years later, they say, whoa, this ship uses too many resources, and has a few design flaws... ( purely speculative, but is supported by the fact that necks disapear from every starfleet designed ship hence forth). ie, the neck. its a large target, and when compramised, the saucer can collapse right into the stardrive, or worse yet, the deflector dish (we all know from star trek first contact that that could be a big boom lol)...

so starfleet designs the nebula since the galaxy had alot of good things going for it....

several years later, they introduce the fallowing ships, the defiant, the intrepid, the akira, the sabre, the steamrunner, the luna, the sovreign, and the nova.

all of these ships have a few different design notes to themm
1. they all lack a neck. no ship after the galaxy was produced with a neck...
2. they are all smaller, including the sovreign, (while the sovreign is longer, its mass is significantly less than that of a galaxy...
3. all the ships are modular. (with the exception of the sovreign class, all the ships are for the most part smaller, more manuverable, and with the ocasional weapons pod, or deflector pod, eveything is attached to the main hull...

then cryptic designed some 2409 ships, you have the escort (malestrom) the dssv and the starcruiser. all of these ships seem to for the most part fallow the direction starfleet went in after the galaxy. they have no necks, and they are fairly modular.

now, this new federation ship shows up, and not only has 1 neck, but two... it is (from what ive read) gonna be a huge ship, and does not look like it is a step between the sovreign and the j..

am i the only one who has this thought?

The Nebula was in production before the Galaxy.

[Archived Post]

Please keep in mind that the ship is going through an extensive amount of design and that this first dev diary represents the very first stage of development. You'll see over the next several diary entries how the ship design continues to evolve. Even as the ship gets closer to completion, I'm impressed by how we've been able to stay true to the initial design while visualizing all the aspects of the 3d model.

So stay tuned! more details to come...

The only change I would make is give it a stubby plat form neck similar to the Sovereign and have the 3 necks bridge on the top in a large that dips down and is filled by the saucer.

Thank you

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I think you are thinking about it way to hard. Speculating about the design intentions of fictional engineers and fictional ships is just a bit 'obsessive". The star trek universe is filled with designs to please our human sensibilites, to evoke emotions. The Akira looks the way it does because an artist said 'that looks cool" and then went about the justifications. Do you think an engineer sat down and designed any of these ships?

Heck its just as easy to come up with reasons for a design being the way it is and there is against. Honestly the design could of been like the Easter bunny and there could be justification!

So from my point of view the new Enterprise does a fine job of displaying established Federation design asthetics for an "Enterprise" (saucer-check/engineering hull-check/nacelles-check). The rest is all fluff,

Twin necks? looks cool, on the surface appears impractical but then there is transporter tech, maybe this new Enterprise uses site to site transporters instead of turbo lifts? Certainly would save a lot of time getting around. Maybe the twin necks house rapid fire disconnect features? Maybe, just maybe the necks aren't even there at all! They Holographic and the saucer attaches to the engineering hull via force fields!

See its just to easy.

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The Nebula was in production before the Galaxy.

that is incorrect. i just checked on memory alpha so i wouldnt look foolish lol.. (i do sometimes argue first check after and realize i was wrong)...

the galaxy was first produced in the 2350's the first nebula was 2363

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on scaling these 2 close to each other, a Standard Sovereign is about 681 meters long, the F is in at about 730-750 meters in length. Looking at this, that would make those neck Pylons, roughly about 20-25 meters across at their thinest point. Meters, not feet folks. that is roughly about 58-75 feet across, at their thinest point.

This. If you don't believe us, take a look at my sig. All three profiles are taken, unaltered, from the design sketch. Those neck pylons are each as long as a Connie's saucer.

In fact, there's most of a Connie between the E and J in perms of length alone. This bird is HUGE.

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I think you are thinking about it way to hard. Speculating about the design intentions of fictional engineers and fictional ships is just a bit 'obsessive". The star trek universe is filled with designs to please our human sensibilites, to evoke emotions. The Akira looks the way it does because an artist said 'that looks cool" and then went about the justifications. Do you think an engineer sat down and designed any of these ships?

Heck its just as easy to come up with reasons for a design being the way it is and there is against. Honestly the design could of been like the Easter bunny and there could be justification!

So from my point of view the new Enterprise does a fine job of displaying established Federation design asthetics for an "Enterprise" (saucer-check/engineering hull-check/nacelles-check). The rest is all fluff,

Twin necks? looks cool, on the surface appears impractical but then there is transporter tech, maybe this new Enterprise uses site to site transporters instead of turbo lifts? Certainly would save a lot of time getting around. Maybe the twin necks house rapid fire disconnect features? Maybe, just maybe the necks aren't even there at all! They Holographic and the saucer attaches to the engineering hull via force fields!

See its just to easy.

oh yeah i understand how your thinking, but think about it from a person who is maybe roleplaying in the game. and say hes an engineer, he might think about those things, and are you trying to say that its just a coincidence that suddenly every single ship was designed without a neck after the galaxy... the creators of startrek, and the people who usually do ship designs and set designs know that the fan base is usually excessive lol... they do actually think abuot what they are designing.. maybe not from s structural stand point, but they do like to make the franchise look and feel as real as possible. and thus when they go ahead and stop designing ships with necks, they are making a statement... cbs, paramount and other people who have their hands in ths star trek cookie jar love this type of design implimentation. they love that it gets the fans involved like this, and that it shows that people pay attention to the little details...

it is in my opinion, that they made the move of removing the necks from ship design on purpose, . alot of times if you read the notes from the creator of a model that made it onscreen, he will say, the team and i were feeling that the neck, while it looks nice, just doesnt make sense, and that is why we decided to exclude it..

but hey, everyone is entitled to their opinion.. because this is sci fi fantasy, i cant say that im right or wrong as much as i could say your right or wrong lol... its all in the eye of the beholder...

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it is in my opinion, that they made the move of removing the necks from ship design on purpose, . alot of times if you read the notes from the creator of a model that made it onscreen, he will say, the team and i were feeling that the neck, while it looks nice, just doesnt make sense, and that is why we decided to exclude it..

You do realize that a couple of different ship designers from the previous series have all chimed in with support for the new ship, right? As in the actual, Trek designers?

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The necks could be thick enough to support turbo-shafts.

Or... the entire secondary hull (engine section) could be automated with access restricted.

You have standard warp drive... transwarp drive... and slip-stream drive all as options in the game.

This class has optimal power and support systems for all three drives in the secondary hull... in some ways engineering would resemble a cross between the JJprise engine room and the post TNG engine rooms of Voyager and whatever. Lots of "trek-modern" conduits tanks and misc machinery... and a big honking (horizontal? spherical?) "power core" that feeds the various devices that work in concert with the nacelles to produce propulsive energy. All of this is highly automated because some of the technobabble is less than healthy to fragile squishy humanoid units..

I'm basing my speculation (as I always do) on how "modern" power plants operate. The reactor is in a shielded containment vault that is mostly inaccessible during normal operations. Entering containment is a huge undertaking and requires planning and coordination.

In some ways it is a step backwards in design but Starfleet felt that having all three propulsion systems on an "optimized platform" was worth it. Now they have a vessel that can serve as a flagship for fleet operations with all three propulsion methods operating at maximum efficiency (per current scientific and engineering standards.)

It was decided to use the neck-and-hull arraignment because some of the new optimized drive technologies can be volatile if damaged. Yes the option to eject/vent/jettison stuff is there but there may be situations were it is safer to cut the hull loose and GTFO of town. Starfleet is all about safety after all. Redundant protections on top of redundant protections. (*)

The Enterprise G of course would be totally designed around whatever propulsion method wins out in the end... Lets say Slipstream.

The Enterprise H would be designed for slipstream and whatever emerging technologies are hot at that point.

And so on.

At this juncture in Star Trek History though there are three distinct propulsion methods that are on the table... and the because of the current situation a comprise design had to be fielded.






(*) Exploding Consoles of Doom are a figment of "dramatic storytelling" and would not exist in a "real" Trek universe... except under sufficiently critical situations.

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Yeah, except that the Warp Core is located in the engineering section... pretty much directly in line with the Pylons.. http://www.sttnf.com/constitution/con-cutaway.pdf

That .pdf is fantastic. Are there other vector cutaways for any other ships?

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You do realize that a couple of different ship designers from the previous series have all chimed in with support for the new ship, right? As in the actual, Trek designers?

i never said they didnt... its a decent looking ship, it looks like it could be an enterprise with a little tweekying.. i was mearly stating, that when i look at it, i do not see forward thinking... i also think, that if those same designers who supported it, read the guidlines of the contest, read that it said, "we are looking for something between the enterprise e and j" that they probably would have left any semblance of a neckout...

lets get this streight, im not trying to dog the design, it is a pretty good looking ship. all im saying, is when i look at it, i dont see a step forward in design... and im not tyring to argue it away, since cryptic has already made their mind up, and there is no stopping it... this design looks like it should have been the enterprise e, a step between the galaxy and the sovreign, not the sovreign and the j...

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You do realize that a couple of different ship designers from the previous series have all chimed in with support for the new ship, right? As in the actual, Trek designers?

I know 1 did(Probert). Who else?

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The concept and 3d work is turing out just fine. Translation is looking good. Cant wait for the tecture and overlay. Cant wait for the ship specs and design parameters. Not to be a quill but people people people get on board. Its the enterprise F. said and done. It uses starfleet design parameters and for some who can not look beyond what you see. I see MVAM. I see design abilities to launch fighters. I see dual quatum torpedo launchers with a round about photon torpedoe launcher. I see a cruiser that can take on a borg cube even after its sheilds are down.

Despite the mere fact that many of you wish to complain and not see beyond the concept work. I urge you to to think how this ship has all federation features in it in one form or another. Many of you wanted a battle ship well BAM. here it is. once its abilities are drawn up i am sure it will be able to survive the litmus test of previous ships.

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you may not like the next generation look, and you may think that the only sexy ships were the constitution refit and the excelsior, but not everything thinks your way
we all have different opinions, and we are being sincere about them (there wouldn't be this much passion about it otherwise)

Exactly. The Excelsior, to me, is probably the ugliest Enterprise. I love the A, C, D and E though. We'll see about the F when it actually rolls out in a finished form.

It is all subjective.

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that is incorrect. i just checked on memory alpha so i wouldnt look foolish lol.. (i do sometimes argue first check after and realize i was wrong)...

the galaxy was first produced in the 2350's the first nebula was 2363

Actualy, it says some of the technology was developed for it in the 2250s aboard the Oberth calss Pegasus. It says "Active 2360s". I always thought it was a shame they made it a science ship, it'd have been cool having it as a skin for the Exploration Cruiser.

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I know 1 did(Probert). Who else?

Can't remember who else. I'm not so hardcore as to follow the BBS. I saw it linked, thought "Hey, that's cool," then carried on with my life. Generally speaking, if it doesn't relate to the game, I don't pay it much mind, in terms of Trek. It probably makes me a "weak" fan, but, meh, it means I can enjoy what I have without worrying too much about what I once had.

[Archived Post]

Actualy, it says some of the technology was developed for it in the 2250s aboard the Oberth calss Pegasus. It says "Active 2360s". I always thought it was a shame they made it a science ship, it'd have been cool having it as a skin for the Exploration Cruiser.

agreed, the nebula was the biggest mistake cryptic ever made in this game, imho....

[Archived Post]

I love it!

One thing though: the engineering hull is unusually large compared to other Federation designs. I don't mind this, but I do hope they try to come up with an explanation for why the engineering hull is so large. Maybe it has more matter/antimatter chambers for more power? Space for modular components allowing for greater mission flexibility? (e.g. the superstructure on top of the primary/engineering hull on the Nebula class).

Redundant warp cores. Space for slipstream drive components. Larger size due to bulked up structure and armor. Repair drone storage. Heavily armored torpedo storage for torpedo turrets. Living quarters and storage bays for mechanized infantry. Enlarged fighter bays.


Whee....that's fun.

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Almost sounds like.... Fed carrier. ;)

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agreed, the nebula was the biggest mistake cryptic ever made in this game, imho....

Hey now! I like the Nebula exactly as it is in the role it currently occupies.

::glares with possessive protectiveness::

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Almost sounds like.... Fed carrier. ;)

escept d stahl said it probably wasnt going to happen... lol...

correct me if im wrong, but wasnt it said that this shp wasnt going to be a playable ship at first.. that once its released, it will be like the jupiter class, non playable, but shows up everywhere.... i cant remember, and im too lazy to go looking after spending half the morning looking for other details hahahaha...

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Kidding. :D


But dang, ship's starting to look nice.

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Actualy, it says some of the technology was developed for it in the 2250s aboard the Oberth calss Pegasus. It says "Active 2360s". I always thought it was a shame they made it a science ship, it'd have been cool having it as a skin for the Exploration Cruiser.

ok i just looked at it again, and here is the text...

The Galaxy-class was a Starfleet vessel first introduced in the late 2350s. It was one of the largest and most powerful Federation starship classes of its time, with many serving in the Dominion War.


The Galaxy Class Starship Development Project began in the 2350s at Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards. (TNG: "Booby Trap", "Eye of the Beholder")

Numerous technologies implemented on Galaxy-class starships were tested aboard earlier prototype vessels, including the Oberth-class USS Pegasus in the 2350s. (TNG: "The Pegasus")



Construction of the Nebula-class was spearheaded under the authority of the Yoyodyne Division, and ranged in construction dates from as early as 2363 to as late as 2367. Vessels including USS Phoenix and USS Sutherland were constructed at this time at both the 40 Eridani A Starfleet Construction Yards and later the San Francisco Fleet Yards, orbiting Earth. (TNG: "The Wounded", "Redemption II" dedication plaques)

above selections from memory alpha...

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Hey now! I like the Nebula exactly as it is in the role it currently occupies.

::glares with possessive protectiveness::

I'm gonna take mine out for a test drive later, I may see how it plays with an engineer in the uni slot for my Fed eng, pending the results, I may allow you to keep it.:D

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escept d stahl said it probably wasnt going to happen... lol...

correct me if im wrong, but wasnt it said that this shp wasnt going to be a playable ship at first.. that once its released, it will be like the jupiter class, non playable, but shows up everywhere.... i cant remember, and im too lazy to go looking after spending half the morning looking for other details hahahaha...
well, if this line from the may engineering report is anything to judge by, the new enterprise will be a playable class:
Fan Designed Enterprise - New Cruiser Ship Class

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And yet, with newer models after the Consitution, Starfleet made remedy of that flaw. Look at the thickness of the neck of the Excelsior, the Ambassador, and the Galaxy. Not to mention the lack of the neck of the Enterprise-E, which was made as a pure warship to counter the Borg.

Oh, the neck is thicker.

But the pylons for the nacelles? They look even thinner.

I don't really think thickness of the necks or or the pylons tell us anything about how tough a ship is in Startrek.

They are, for whatever techno-babble reasons, not weak spots. Otherwise the Klingons wouldn't build their long-necked ships, the D'Deridex wouldn't have its neck and its wings.

---

What could use some work are the nacelles. I don't like their look yet.

[Archived Post]

well, if this line from the may engineering report is anything to judge by, the new enterprise will be a playable class:

Precisely. It'll initially have to be unlocked somehow. But it's meant to be playable.
After all, we keep talking about this new Enterprise, but lest we forget: it's also a completely new line of ship.

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yeah, but the contest was to design the next enterprise, not the next playable ship...

and ill look around, but i thought it was stated that the ship wasnt going to be playable.. like i said, im probably and could be wrong.. or i could be half right hahah you never know...

i dont care weather it is or not, i wont fly it, however, it would be cool if it were a new ship, weather i like a ship or not, i do like when i fly through secotr space, and see lots of different ships...

[Archived Post]

yeah, but the contest was to design the next enterprise, not the next playable ship...

and ill look around, but i thought it was stated that the ship wasnt going to be playable.. like i said, im probably and could be wrong.. or i could be half right hahah you never know...

I can confirm they did in fact say this ship will be playable. Not the Enterprise itself, but this CLASS of ship(which has yet to be named).

[Archived Post]

I can confirm they did in fact say this ship will be playable. Not the Enterprise itself, but this CLASS of ship(which has yet to be named).

ok kool. i wont even ask for proof, as it is you nagus. lol...

is it possible that its not going to be available right away.. im just trying to figure out how this idea got locked in my head... haha...

[Archived Post]

ok kool. i wont even ask for proof, as it is you nagus. lol...

is it possible that its not going to be available right away.. im just trying to figure out how this idea got locked in my head... haha...

Here is all I know:

The ship will be a reward for completing a special mission which we have not talked about yet, so you'll have to stay tuned as we get closer to its "premier".

http://forums.startrekonline.com/showpost.php?p=3525815&postcount=433

Who said "everyone" is going to get one... and who said that the mission to get it will be "easy"? Besides - it also represents a new "class" of ship - there are very few ships in Starfleet that were "one-offs".

http://forums.startrekonline.com/showpost.php?p=3525852&postcount=443

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Here is all I know:



http://forums.startrekonline.com/showpost.php?p=3525815&postcount=433



http://forums.startrekonline.com/showpost.php?p=3525852&postcount=443

oh nagus, you didnt have to, you could tell me that jesus himself called dan stahl and picked the final enterprise f winner, and id believe you. lol... ur probably the most knowledgable person here on the forums, and your guesses are better than most peoples facts...

i really didnt need proof. but thank you in kind...

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oh nagus, you didnt have to, you could tell me that jesus himself called dan stahl and picked the final enterprise f winner, and id believe you. lol... ur probably the most knowledgable person here on the forums, and your guesses are better than most peoples facts...

i really didnt need proof. but thank you in kind...

LMAO. Well as a matter of fact Jesus did call Dan and pick the winner. But his last named was Gomez, and you pronounce his first name with an "H" sound :D

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It's funny that many people here don't like the vague sovy essence added into the clay model. Those elements are the only things I like about it.
I've said from the start... it is an interesting design. I doubt I will ever think of it as an Enterprise, but the clay model is a big step in the right direction for me.

[Archived Post]

Hi,

I have just read the First Design DIary and do love the look of the ship and the direction it is going in.

My only dislike at the moment is the lack of space between the saucer and the hull; What is the point of having this unique "dual" neck design if their is not going to be some good space between the hull and the saucer.

My thought is if they're going to be as close as the clay model suggests, you may as well stick them together and hey presto, a bigger sovereign. But I don't want a bigger sovereign, I want the winning design, so my suggestion is as above, give us a bit more space between the hull and saucer, it would look great when panning the camera round if we had a clear view through the saucer and hull between the dual neck.

Cheers :)

[Archived Post]

LMAO. Well as a matter of fact Jesus did call Dan and pick the winner. But his last named was Gomez, and you pronounce his first name with an "H" sound :D

u know what funny, is we have been posting on here for along time now, and i think you and i have crossed paths maybe 2 or 3 times lol....

well im glad theat "h" jesus is an sto fan lol...

[Archived Post]

Yuck. It's ok, but the 2nd place Enterprise should have been the clear winner.

[Archived Post]

Dan Stahl mentioned in his last DevPost that the claymodel you see in the design diary is an attempt to straight-convert Ihle's winning entry into a 3d shape with some straightening out and added approximation.

As written on the picture itself, it's 'rough 02'.

Upcoming diaries will no doubt reveal more. For the moment, however, it's unwise to rage about a design that has yet to be refined and finalized.

For my part... I devoutly hope that the ship won't end up with a squarish bridge exterior design like CapnLogan has pushed out on several of his creations (Imperial-class, most Fleet Escorts, Comet-class) and instead goes for the bridge module style used by the Excalibur-class, Dakota-class and Oslo-class; I liked those and it'd be inline with some STO established design aesthetics that'd make the ship most consistent with other same-era vessels in the game.

I too hope the design process goes more toward round saucers. I'm not wild on the slight arrowhead feel of this one. Sovereign design aesthetics would ideally have to go... but I'd loke to see some inspiration taken from the Vesper-class' saucer (I think the general shape is pretty). In fact, if the Enterprise-F can evoke the same long, smooth and graceful lines as the Vesper-class cruiser (one of my personal favorites) I might be fairly happy about it.

I'm eager to see the upcoming iterations as this design gets refined further. I still very badly want to be given a reason to start liking it.

[Archived Post]

I too hope the design process goes more toward round saucers. I'm not wild on the slight arrowhead feel of this one. Sovereign design aesthetics would ideally have to go... but I'd loke to see some inspiration taken from the Vesper-class' saucer (I think the general shape is pretty). In fact, if the Enterprise-F can evoke the same long, smooth and graceful lines as the Vesper-class cruiser (one of my personal favorites) I might be fairly happy about it.


Isn't the Vesper an even sharper-angled (less round) arrowhead saucer?

[Archived Post]

You're confusing the Vesper for the Excalibur.

http://www.startrekonline.com/ships/vesper
http://www.startrekonline.com/ships/excalibur

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I'm somewhat concerned its gonna end up being too large.

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I haven't read every single post here, so excuse me if someone already pointed this out.

The original winning sketch was just that... a sketch.
That's one reason why it was chosen. As a design it could be actually worked with, tweak it and change it as necessary without losing the original intent. Something the other more finished design entrys did not permit.
Would Adam have continued to design the final product himself, you bet it would have undergone several more changes in details, proportions, etc...

The new new 3d model is basically the same... a sketch, just digital.
It's the base they will start refining.
They will experiment with the shapes and details until they find the final design in the general idea.
it will still incorporate the basic idea and intent from the first sketch and yet show changes at the same time.

So I won't make the same mistake twice, to assume that the next Enterprise looks 100% like what I just saw. It will take and retain the best aspects of it and turn them into something awesome.
I don't believe they will f*** this up by introducing a Fuglyprise since this ship will pretty much DEFINE the game from it's introduction.
This is STO's contribution to the legacy of the Enterprise.
It may not strictly be canon now, but who says later designers for a possible TV show won't honor the design if turns out an awesome ship.

Dev's please correct me if I'm wrong here. ;)

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I personally have no issue with the new design as a stand alone class of cruiser. It is an interesting design and when I first saw it I liked it. But as a new Enterprise I'm sorry I can't get behind it. Its profile view makes me go yes that is an Enterprise. a combination of both of my personal favorite designs the Galaxy and the Sovereign. But when I see the front of it and the two necks it falls flat on its face to me as the next Enterprise, and becomes just another ship class.

I adhere to Gene Roddenberry's original designs as the Enterprise. A saucer, one neck, a stardrive and two warp nacelles that can be seen from the front of the ship. I don't count the NX as an enterprise and neither does cannon or else the original Enterprise form TOS would be the A, (then again it could be argued the NX enterprise was before the UFP and was essentially retired before its inception and the TOS enterprise was the first for the UFP. if you want to get technical.) not to mention it breaks the original design though the re-fit proposed for session 4 of enterprise did make me go yes that is an enterprise. And as for the J I see it not as an enterprise either due to it not having the aforementioned parts and that is why the NX (Akira-prise) and the enterprise J is hated by most of the fans. it deviates from the original design of the originals and it breaks from the legacy of the ship. That is what people are up in arms about, not really the ship design itself for the most part then again that's just from the fans I've talked to when I showed them design but as soon as I told them "that's the Enterprise-F" they all went hell no its the name, not just the design. It doesn't shout enterprise due to the fact it pity much ignored its predecessors design with the two necks. give it one neck and flush the neck out along the stardrive a bit I think people might change there tune a little.

for example take the profile I edited a bit add a third impulse engine since two probably won't give it enough thrust like the D had, and picture it a single neck the design works now as an enterprise in my opinion.

http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z29/cherchRvB/Untitled-1.png
but then again it now looks like a cross between a Galaxy and a Sovereign.

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The one thing that would be the "deal-breaker" for me is how they handle saucer separation.

If the saucer separates and leaves two large, ugly struts sticking up out of the Engineering hull then it's an atrocity.

If the saucer can't separate, then that seems more like a step backward.

I'm kind of hoping that it works out that the "necks" stay with the saucer upon separation, along with a bit of connecting hull to form a kind of foil. That would be kind of cool. Anything else seems like it would look silly.

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I'm somewhat concerned its gonna end up being too large.

Comparing the silhouettes to the ship size chart (http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=209431), the hull and saucer look about as long as the Star Cruiser's, but slightly fatter. It's going to be a good chunk bigger than the Sovereign, but it's not tipping the scales that much over the Galaxy or Vanguard.

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all of those things make a very slow maneuvering starship. Granted saucer seperation might remedy that somewhat, depending on how they do it. I'm of the opinion that the neck pylons should star with the saucer and integrade some warp drive looking components.

[Archived Post]

ok i just looked at it again, and here is the text...

The Galaxy-class was a Starfleet vessel first introduced in the late 2350s. It was one of the largest and most powerful Federation starship classes of its time, with many serving in the Dominion War.


The Galaxy Class Starship Development Project began in the 2350s at Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards. (TNG: "Booby Trap", "Eye of the Beholder")

Numerous technologies implemented on Galaxy-class starships were tested aboard earlier prototype vessels, including the Oberth-class USS Pegasus in the 2350s. (TNG: "The Pegasus")



Construction of the Nebula-class was spearheaded under the authority of the Yoyodyne Division, and ranged in construction dates from as early as 2363 to as late as 2367. Vessels including USS Phoenix and USS Sutherland were constructed at this time at both the 40 Eridani A Starfleet Construction Yards and later the San Francisco Fleet Yards, orbiting Earth. (TNG: "The Wounded", "Redemption II" dedication plaques)

above selections from memory alpha...

Ah I see that now. In the box on the right with a picture of it, it does still say "active - 2360s", I think the article's a bit broken.

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Just my 0,02 €.

First, the nacelles look too Sovereign like, they look too narrrow in my opinion.
TBH i would prefer if some kind of modernized Galaxy or intrepid Nacelle could be used.
Maybe a slightly longer and wider galaxy Nacelle?
(I just had an idea, why not make the Nacelles more Defiant like, integrating them into the hull would look very cool. IMHO)
I always thought that the nacelles are some real big weaknesses on Federation ships, i mean look at the Sovereign Class.
Saucer and hull are extremely well connected, what makes that ship look really sturdy, but the pylons look so fragile and the Nacelles themselves are absurdly huge.
(They could have just painted a big crosshair on it and write below "Please shoot HERE is you want to destroy this Ship", lol.)


Second, the Pylons look much too fragile they should more resemble the neck(s)(maybe as a smaller optical counterpart?).
They don't fit very well to the Hull/Neck/Saucer combination, because they look too fragile.
Maybe making them shorter and a bit lower would look much better and more stable.


Third, i don't like the egg shape of the Saucer very much, it should be much wider (about a third) so that the saucer is wider than the nacelles. Personally i would make it more round shaped and the connnections of the necks don't have to be at the rim.


Fourth, The hull looks much too big, especially from a front view.
Reducing its high and length about 25% would help much IMHO.


Please don't get me wrong, i am not completely against this ship, but it highly depends on how Cryptics designer(s) are going to realize it. Please no silly holes, spikes, edges or armor plates!
(At least give us the option to remove them.)

TBH i like the double neck design, it looks futuristic and new. I am curious to see how it will look in game.


Live long and prosper.

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While I have to admit that it still doesn't say 'Enterprise' to me, I think the original designers updated art (here) (http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=4954783&postcount=1309) looks a lot better than where the clay model is heading.

I even like the idea of the 'necks' being a Vulcan style warp-ring that stays with the saucer during separation.

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that is incorrect. i just checked on memory alpha so i wouldnt look foolish lol.. (i do sometimes argue first check after and realize i was wrong)...

the galaxy was first produced in the 2350's the first nebula was 2363

You realize memory alpha is not always correct. Since there is no source in the show or the movies that say when the nebula actually went into production.

Looking at my various resources, TNG Tech Manual, and Encyclopedia, it appears that the production of the Galaxy started first followed shortly after by the nebula. However... several nebula calsses were commission befoer the USS Galaxy. This aides starfleet with the Galaxy Class tech and gave them a fully functional test bed for it.

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You realize memory alpha is not always correct.

but you do realize it is the highest authority next to actual film on star trek... lol... most information from the game is pulled from memory alpha...


but you are correct, sometimes there are minor mistakes.... however this is not one of them. hehehe.

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Ah I see that now. In the box on the right with a picture of it, it does still say "active - 2360s", I think the article's a bit broken.

i would agree, or, it could be that it was built in the 50's and didnt get all the bugs worked out of it till ealry 60's, thus not entering official service till the 60's. that is purely speculation on my part, but one could assume that that is a possability...

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ok i just looked at it again, and here is the text...

The Galaxy-class was a Starfleet vessel first introduced in the late 2350s. It was one of the largest and most powerful Federation starship classes of its time, with many serving in the Dominion War.


The Galaxy Class Starship Development Project began in the 2350s at Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards. (TNG: "Booby Trap", "Eye of the Beholder")

Numerous technologies implemented on Galaxy-class starships were tested aboard earlier prototype vessels, including the Oberth-class USS Pegasus in the 2350s. (TNG: "The Pegasus")



Construction of the Nebula-class was spearheaded under the authority of the Yoyodyne Division, and ranged in construction dates from as early as 2363 to as late as 2367. Vessels including USS Phoenix and USS Sutherland were constructed at this time at both the 40 Eridani A Starfleet Construction Yards and later the San Francisco Fleet Yards, orbiting Earth. (TNG: "The Wounded", "Redemption II" dedication plaques)

above selections from memory alpha...

Yoyodyne Division? I assume they were testing an Oscillation Overthruster too? ;)

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Yoyodyne Division? I assume they were testing an Oscillation Overthruster too? ;)

dont know, maybe the y is supposed to be something else, i pulled that right from the website. lol..

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This is true, the Borg are probably the only faction who've made practical ships in all of Star Trek as well. :D

Idk, the Voth and Xindi (aquatic) ships were rather nice and looked less vulnerable, and the Intrepid and Sovereign have no neck to speak of.

I think around VOY, the designers got a clue that the neck was a bad idea and phased it out.

I think the Necks on the new ship would actually work rather well. They're curved and that curvature lends it strength against hostile fire. The lower mounting on the hull are a tad thin, but the ship is being developed, its not in its final stage yet, and even so, its not like that mounting is small but any means.

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Well, i'm sorry to say that even though they've tweaked it from the original design I still don't like it.

Technically there's nothing wrong with the design and I think it will fit in with the rest of the ships.

But, It's nothing special which in my opinion makes it undeserving of being the new Enterprise.

The Enterprise is supposed to be the flagship of the Federation and as such be the most impressive looking and most technically advanced ship in the fleet.

The chosen design just looks like any other Federation ship and doesn't really stand out or look impressive.

Hell, the Vesta class looks infinitely more impressive, way more advanced / futuristic, and it's an old design in the STO timeline.

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I still don't like the design, this actually makes me like it even less.

It feels like a bit of step back, and not that much of an Enterprise.

A background Trek ship maybe, but not an Enterprise, no offense to the creator.

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Yeah, seems few are warming up to the winning design. The majority of Trekkies just don't like it, even if Probert blessed it.

Doesn't look like Cryptic's Enterprise-F just isn't going to be accepted as canon.

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Yeah, seems few are warming up to the winning design. The majority of Trekkies just don't like it, even if Probert blessed it.

Doesn't look like Cryptic's Enterprise-F just isn't going to be accepted as canon.


Fortunately for the Enterprise-F then that it has never been fan opinion that determined what was canon and what was not. Also, it is my understanding this entire game was soft-canon or entirely non-canon depending on whom you ask.

This game's forums are full of threads that are nothing but people sniping at each other on various issues; half (which half varies by issue) of them are always unhappy about something. They could have selected any ship on that list of ships and it would have seemed no one liked it. My sympathies are for the poor artist whom was so thoroughly abused by this community that at times it makes me ashamed to be a member.

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I think that if they make the neck "flow" a little more, then I think it will do wonders to the overall design.

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Fortunately for the Enterprise-F then that it has never been fan opinion that determined what was canon and what was not. Also, it is my understanding this entire game was soft-canon or entirely non-canon depending on whom you ask.

This game's forums are full of threads that are nothing but people sniping at each other on various issues; half (which half varies by issue) of them are always unhappy about something. They could have selected any ship on that list of ships and it would have seemed no one liked it. My sympathies are for the poor artist whom was so thoroughly abused by this community that at times it makes me ashamed to be a member.
i know, poor poor Adam Ihle, he doesn't deserve any of the backlash, threats, complaints and negative whatever else was thrown at him (a lot of it was just plain uncalled for)
it's just a peciluar situation we're in... those who hate the Enterprise-F are very vocal about it, and often brutal with it... those who like or love it don't speak up that often (me included)... and those who think it's meh are even less vocal

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Idk, the Voth and Xindi (aquatic) ships were rather nice and looked less vulnerable, and the Intrepid and Sovereign have no neck to speak of.

I think around VOY, the designers got a clue that the neck was a bad idea and phased it out.

Why didn't they get the lesson from the Defiant and ditched those thin pylons as well?

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While I have to admit that it still doesn't say 'Enterprise' to me, I think the original designers updated art (here) (http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=4954783&postcount=1309) looks a lot better than where the clay model is heading.

I even like the idea of the 'necks' being a Vulcan style warp-ring that stays with the saucer during separation.

I have to agree, that's exactly what I was picturing, and it looks like the devs are not going that direction with it.

I'll also say that while the Voyager and Sovereign show an evolution to a more "organic" look, with an integrated primary and secondary hull, the Excelsior had nearly no neck as well, but was succeeded by the Ambassador and Galaxy. And keep in mind that the entire purpose of the pylons on the Enterprise design in the first place was to protect the crew from the powerful forces emitted by the engines and engineering deck.

The Defiant may mount its warp engines directly on the hull, but it's a mistake to assume there is no sacrifice associated with that. For one thing, the Defiant does not appear capable of operating away from a base for an extended period of time. This may be simply because it is not safe to be on the ship for a long period of time, before the warp drive starts turning you into a tadpole. :D

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Doesn't look like Cryptic's Enterprise-F just isn't going to be accepted as canon.

The game isn't considered canon so your point is moot.

Unless something were to ever happen on TV again, it's up to individuals to distinguish for themselves how the universe continues for them. Essentially, if someone would tell me.. that's not canon!? I would be forced to ask why? Yes elements of STO aren't being shown to us through TV... but we're most likely never going to see anything from the prime universe ever again on TV. So in the end, why does it matter? If I want something to be canon, why would it bother someone else who has completely different views of Trek as a whole. For me, I consider much of the lore surrounding the game - written by Kestrel - as canon because it is very believable as to where things may have gone after Star Trek Nemesis.

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The game is considered soft canon. Like the books.

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I do like the overall design and the unique style of the neck.

However the clay model is looking like it's sat on the sofa for a week eating cheeto's. It could do with the hull section being a little thinner and sleeker as it's a bit podgy at the moment. This could be due to it being a clay model and finesse isn't an option as you need the thing to stay together.

I do hope it's slimmed down just a touch to lose the extra bulk it seems to have picked up and that the neck supports are put on a more forward angle, just a bit though. :)

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Fortunately for the Enterprise-F then that it has never been fan opinion that determined what was canon and what was not. Also, it is my understanding this entire game was soft-canon or entirely non-canon depending on whom you ask.

Dan Stahl stated clearly on STOked that the winner of the Contest was accepted as cannon by CBS. And that it's up to the fans to really accept it or not. But again the majority of Trek fans aren't too open to this design. So in all liklihood, this Enterprise-F will be STO only.

This game's forums are full of threads that are nothing but people sniping at each other on various issues; half (which half varies by issue) of them are always unhappy about something. They could have selected any ship on that list of ships and it would have seemed no one liked it. My sympathies are for the poor artist whom was so thoroughly abused by this community that at times it makes me ashamed to be a member.

Can you blame people for being angry? Fuzzy Modem's ship and Maddens were clear fan favorites and Fuzzy's didn't win, and Madden's got runner-up.

And as for Mr. Ihle, ever since Probert gave his blessing, he no longer cares about people's criticisms. Which is good. However, since this design is supposed to be by the fans for the fans, the fans have the right to state what they like or dislike about it.

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And as for Mr. Ihle, ever since Probert gave his blessing, he no longer cares about people's criticisms. Which is good. However, since this design is supposed to be by the fans for the fans, the fans have the right to state what they like or dislike about it.

There is a difference, though, between simply stating a basic like or dislike, and what that poor dude was going through in the follow up weeks after the contest was resolved. It could easily qualify as harassment. He was really stressing out.
Let's face facts: the Star Trek community has been, and always will be, a community of nit-pickers. We are one of the touchiest communities in all of geekdom. No matter whose ship won, I guarantee there would have been scores of "fans" waiting to swoop in and tear it to pieces.
Frankly, we have little to no right to be THAT touchy. Yes, we're entitled to our passions. But what we're not entitled to is behaving like kindergadeners.
This design won. CBS is pretty much gonna accept it as canon. About as Canon as it can get, either way. And frankly, that's good enough for me. Sure I have my opinions on the design. But I'm willing to give it a shot. I mean, let's take a page from the franchise we love so dearly and be civil and understanding about this. :)

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MrJ, I believe all the real Star Trek fans agree with you on this. While trying to be polite as possible, this ship as the next Enterprise is a terrible, terrible mistake.

Who elected you President of Everyone Who Likes Star Trek? I've been watching trek since I was a small child, and not only do I think this design is excellent, but frankly I think a lot of the attacks on the design are being driven by nothing more than sour grapes.

As much as an artist must "develop a thick skin" as so many have stated, individual fans have to stop acting like children because their personal opinion is not taken as final, authoritative gospel. If the aesthetics of the new design offend you; Tough. Make your feelings known without being insulting, then deal with reality, instead of throwing about No True Scotsman fallacies.

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MrJ, I believe all the real Star Trek fans agree with you on this. While trying to be polite as possible, this ship as the next Enterprise is a terrible, terrible mistake.


This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Atari Community Rules and Policies (http://forums.startrekonline.com/announcement.php?f=118&a=5) ~InfoNinja

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This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Atari Community Rules and Policies (http://forums.startrekonline.com/announcement.php?f=118&a=5) ~InfoNinja

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To be honest neither the Excelsior (1701-B) <---- Still think this is the ugliest looking starship in all iof Star Trek (but yes, I do fly one in game as I has good stats, and the Trnswarp abilities can't be beat); nor the 1701-D (second ugliest ship in Star Trek; and I've felt that way since 1987 when I saw the TNG premire) didn't scream 'Enterprise' to me either. Both ships have their fans though.

The Ambassador Class was the last 24th century ship that imo looked like part of the actual 'Enterprise' lineage.

And IMO while I don't hate th Soveriegn per se - I never cared much for the 'flying spoon' look of most latter 24th century era vessels either.

YMMV.

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No offense, but what designer of a warship would put such obvious vulnerabilities into the design? You can use whatever Treknobable to justify it being safe, but those struts are just asking for hostiles to target it. Just taking out strut and the entire ship is compromised.


Not with as thick as Cryptic is making them. They should be quite robust, unlike those on the Enterprise prime and the -A.

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LOL
oh wow.

Anyway, for everyone complaining about the neck. The Enterprise J looked kinda flimsy on the pylons, right?

http://suricatasblog.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/universe.png

Flimsy, yes, flimsy.

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Anyway, for everyone complaining about the neck. The Enterprise J looked kinda flimsy on the pylons, right?

http://suricatasblog.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/universe.png

Flimsy, yes, flimsy.

Doug Drexler explained the reason for the spindly nacelles on his blog (http://drexfiles.wordpress.com/2009/03/29/enterprise-j-search-redux/).

I Opted for spindly nacelle struts because I felt it suggested a technology beyond what we were familiar with. Matt Jefferies used this same gag on the original series ship with it’s impossibly thin engine supports. It’s nacelles had a floaty appearance, defying the laws of physics. It was my opinion that the ever heavying up of engine struts over the years, took some of the magic out of the Enterprise.

I suppose that makes sense, being that the Ent-J is from the 26th Century and all.

In all honesty, I don't think Cryptic would have picked the design if they didn't believe they could turn it into a good ship - nor would CBS have agreed to it without believing so, too. If they had come and told the Star Trek fanbase, "Here, this is OUR Enterprise-F", we'd just have had to accept the fact. Instead, they gave an actual Trek fan the ability to influence the direction of the Enterprise legacy.

The sheer size of the community backlash against the designer makes me believe that we won't see this kind of playerbase interaction again for quite a while.

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I am not a fan of the design. I'll be honest. I don't like it at all.

However...I don't see a point in starting fights over it. I just won't use it.

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Doug Drexler explained the reason for the spindly nacelles on his blog (http://drexfiles.wordpress.com/2009/03/29/enterprise-j-search-redux/).


Oh, I meant it out of sarcasm, in the picture, the nacelle strut of the massive Enterprise J is STILL thick when compared to the Galaxy class.

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I am not a fan of the design. I'll be honest. I don't like it at all.

However...I don't see a point in starting fights over it. I just won't use it.

See I wish more people would take a moderate stance like this... rather than the OMG HATE HATE HATE BURN HATE BURN HAAAAAAAAATE attitude so many people have.

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No offense, but what designer of a warship would put such obvious vulnerabilities into the design? You can use whatever Treknobable to justify it being safe, but those struts are just asking for hostiles to target it. Just taking out strut and the entire ship is compromised.

No offense but if you look at nearly every ship in Star Trek besides the borg for places on them to exploit, well then why hasnt anyone ever saw the other guys shields drop and said ok fire on their bridge. I mean on every ship ive seen the bridge is out in the open and easily shot at once shields have dropped. Why worry about firing on the weapons necelles or practically anything when you know you blow that very exposed part of the ship up and youve not only killed off most if not all the senior staff but have taken away most their main stations for controlling practically everything that ship can do.

Tell me if im wrong but from what ive seen where the bridges are placed are usually exposed on the upper part or front part of the ship instead of somewhere more protected like under a couple decks or in the main section of the biggest part of the hull. Im sure they can rig up some cameras to see yet everyone has been placed in a very open area where one good torpedo with the shields down or a transphasic could easy hit it and the fight would be over in a matter of moments. Talk about your flawed designs.

Want to talk about crazy the Klingons are riding on top of where their torpedos fire from. Talk about asking for a stupid design flaw a torpedo doesnt fire down the shaft right and boom, they done blew themselves up lol.

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Oh, I meant it out of sarcasm, in the picture, the nacelle strut of the massive Enterprise J is STILL thick when compared to the Galaxy class.

Oh right, fair enough - I see what you mean now. :)

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Why didn't they get the lesson from the Defiant and ditched those thin pylons as well?

TBH, the pylons allow:

*The nacelles to be placed in an area of symetry about the ship,
*Are iconic to the Enterprise lineage,
*Spread the ship out, making it look larger than it otherwise would have,
*Sets the IP apart from almost all others,
*Keeps what could be hazardous radiation and materials from the majority of the crew,
*Can be repaired and replaced as modules instead of an integrated part of the ship


I probably could go on and on ;)

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So outside of the Wrath Of Khan when the Enterprise blows the nacelle off of the Reliant... can ANYONE point to a single instance where the neck of the ship or the nacelle PYLONS themselves were at risk? Or damaged? Or about to become an issue? Or ever mentioned as a potential trouble-point?

I can think of one or two from the novels... but aside from TWOK I can't think of a single on-screen incident.

Plenty of warp-core burps... a few nacelle problems... but never a structural problem with the neck or pylons.

Hmmm...

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So outside of the Wrath Of Khan when the Enterprise blows the nacelle off of the Reliant... can ANYONE point to a single instance where the neck of the ship or the nacelle PYLONS themselves were at risk? Or damaged? Or about to become an issue? Or ever mentioned as a potential trouble-point?

I can think of one or two from the novels... but aside from TWOK I can't think of a single on-screen incident.

Plenty of warp-core burps... a few nacelle problems... but never a structural problem with the neck or pylons.

Hmmm...

I think there was one episode where the Boseman came through a spacial rift that the pylons caused a problem in TNG, but that ship had huge pylons comparatively

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That was a problem with the nacelle itself not the supporting structure under it.

The support itself not the nacelle itself.

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Too much Sovereign in the saucer, other than that I like it a lot.

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I'll also say that while the Voyager and Sovereign show an evolution to a more "organic" look, with an integrated primary and secondary hull, the Excelsior had nearly no neck as well, but was succeeded by the Ambassador and Galaxy.

But none of that really matters much. STO is placed in the 25th century. Designs change. And Trek itself has rebooted itself back to the original looking ships with the JJ verse.

Clean slate time.

It's the differences that really help me like this ship. It's new. It's different. It's an enterprise I am excited to get a chance to captain.

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No offense but if you look at nearly every ship in Star Trek besides the borg for places on them to exploit, well then why hasnt anyone ever saw the other guys shields drop and said ok fire on their bridge. I mean on every ship ive seen the bridge is out in the open and easily shot at once shields have dropped. Why worry about firing on the weapons necelles or practically anything when you know you blow that very exposed part of the ship up and youve not only killed off most if not all the senior staff but have taken away most their main stations for controlling practically everything that ship can do.

Feel free to watch Wrath of Khan, again. The Enterprise fired at the Reliant's Bridge, took out the Torpedo Launcher, and blew off one of the Warp Nacelles.

As for the Bridge out in the Open, this isn't Battlestar Galactica where the CIC is deep inside the ship. This is a Star Trek Staple.

[Tell me if im wrong but from what ive seen where the bridges are placed are usually exposed on the upper part or front part of the ship instead of somewhere more protected like under a couple decks or in the main section of the biggest part of the hull. Im sure they can rig up some cameras to see yet everyone has been placed in a very open area where one good torpedo with the shields down or a transphasic could easy hit it and the fight would be over in a matter of moments. Talk about your flawed designs.

Want to talk about crazy the Klingons are riding on top of where their torpedos fire from. Talk about asking for a stupid design flaw a torpedo doesnt fire down the shaft right and boom, they done blew themselves up lol.

You could say that about any torpedo launcher. How about the ones that were located at the end of the Sovereigns bridge during the Nemesis refit?

Say what you will, people may think in this case "two is better than one", but that isn't so. If this ship is in combat, then the ship is manuvering at high speeds, which puts stress on the structure. If the SIF cannot handle it, the saucer ends up ripping off and it would likely fly into one of the warp pylons, crippling the ship.

But hey this is a game right, who cares about what fans think.

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If this ship is in combat, then the ship is manuvering at high speeds, which puts stress on the structure. If the SIF cannot handle it, the saucer ends up ripping off and it would likely fly into one of the warp pylons, crippling the ship.
high speed traveling puts a lot of the stress at the center of the ship, so a lot of the stress went to the central neck of the other enterprise's
two necks however, according to the devs (at least i think), put less stress on the ship during high speeds

and also, SIF is designed to handle low warp speeds easily, so it can handle combat speeds without even trying (and therefore, there's no stress unless they're doing high warp maneuvers)

i could be wrong about this though

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I'll just clarify my position and likely a lot of other peoples too. This is not a dig on the artist, I'm sure he is quite talented. I (We) just don't like his design or that Cryptic chose it over some designs we consider much better.

I will just reiterate what I said previously, when you put your art out for the world to see, you better have a thick enough skin to be able to handle when people don't like it.

And, I suppose the reverse is true? When your preferred choice doesn't win, it's understandable that there will be commentary as to why, but you should have a thick enough skin to understand that your starship didn't win the race.

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Its fine to discuss it in a reasonable manner and disagree with the design. Like issues with the twin necks and whatnot. But to see so many posts bashing it without reason just on these forums, i can only imagine just how much hatemail and flack adam got from other sectors.

I dont think he 'abandoned' his design because of negative feedback. It sounds more like he got threats, insults, etc. Which i unfortunately do believe Star Trek fans ARE capable of. Its no different from the kind the tv crew got during the Enterprise series when it was still airing.

Which just serves to reinforce my image of the majority of die-hard star trek fans as merely fans of 'My Trek', not 'Star Trek'.

/signed in hearty agreement!

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high speed traveling puts a lot of the stress at the center of the ship, so a lot of the stress went to the central neck of the other enterprise's
two necks however, according to the devs (at least i think), put less stress on the ship during high speeds

and also, SIF is designed to handle low warp speeds easily, so it can handle combat speeds without even trying (and therefore, there's no stress unless they're doing high warp maneuvers)

i could be wrong about this though

Not to mention that by the same logic the nacelles should go flying off every time any ship in Trek turns. Trek ships aren't practical. Period.

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But none of that really matters much. STO is placed in the 25th century. Designs change. And Trek itself has rebooted itself back to the original looking ships with the JJ verse.

Clean slate time.

It's the differences that really help me like this ship. It's new. It's different. It's an enterprise I am excited to get a chance to captain.

Wrong. Trek itself hasn't been rebooted as a whole, it's simply been split in 2. Two properties and two realities, the movie Trek belongs to Paramount while the TV Trek belongs to CBS. The new "movie" Trek doesn't affect anything in this game and it doesn't negate what's been established as canon. The "clean slate" you speak of only affects future movies and nothing more.

I have every faith in CapnLogan's ability to make a great ship. Having said that I'm not a fan of the original design. Can CapnLogan make the ship beautiful? Sure he can. However it's still a beautiful ship based on design I don't like. I was talking to a friend about the dev diary and I told her that I thought it was a nice looking model, but it's a nice looking model of a ship I don't like. It's like the Oberth that's in game. The work done on the Oberth is impressive but I still can't stand the way the ship looks.

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This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Atari Community Rules and Policies (http://forums.startrekonline.com/announcement.php?f=118&a=5) ~InfoNinja

Wow...I'm going to live off of your post for months...it warmed the cockles of my crusty, sarcastic heart.

Personally, I want to get my hands on this ship design in-game, and see what it can do...if it's a tanky behemoth like my VA Soverign is, I'll be quite happen to fly this around...and I doubt I'll ever see the F in-game while I'm doing it.

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The design would benefit from a third smaller neck in the center; almost looks like there is one in the sketch, but that is probably the far side pylon. This third central neck could extend down the engineering hull to give that big blank space a little more visual impact, and some added structural integrity.

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Okay, now it looks like an illegitimate child of a Sovereign and an Oberth with hypothyroidism, instead of the illegitimate child of a Galaxy and Oberth.

The top profile mostly looks like a flabby version of the Sovereign, the side profile looks like a Galaxy squished into Excelsior proportions, and the way the twin necks curl into the front profile makes even that look extra-lumpy.

Really starting to look a lot like the lumpy, bland, and wacky-nacelled Typhoon though. I wonder if one of the reasons they picked it was because it'd be easy to meld that into a variant?

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high speed traveling puts a lot of the stress at the center of the ship, so a lot of the stress went to the central neck of the other enterprise's two necks however, according to the devs (at least i think), put less stress on the ship during high speeds

and also, SIF is designed to handle low warp speeds easily, so it can handle combat speeds without even trying (and therefore, there's no stress unless they're doing high warp maneuvers)

i could be wrong about this though

I really think anyone on the Dev Team took courses in Structural Engineering. But Matt Jefferies actually was well versed in engineering. ;)

The SIF is just force fields around the bulkheads to lessen structural stresses, it's not a cure all. The higher the speeds or manuvering, the greater the stresses on the structure. That's why you don't see large cruisers pulling off realistic side-slipping of real spaceships or stunts you saw Vipers do on BSG.


But the stresses on these double necks isn't as easy as it seems.

First off you would have large ammounts of sheer stress of the necks as the saucer's impulse engines pushes the entire ship. So essentially 5 metric tons of the Secondary hull is being pulled from these thin structures. While the bottom may be more secure due to the larger area, the top of the saucer isn't. Then you will have tensile strength of these necks as the saucer is thrusting foward and pulling the rest of the ship. So if you would, the saucer would be stretching foward from these points like a weak glued joint.

Now its okay with the Oberth because it's a small ship, a non-combat vessel, and these connections are far thicker than the Ihle's Enterprise-F.

That's why Single necks were far studier and got thicker over time to the point the necks disappeared altogether with the Sovereign, the Intrepid, the Sabre, the Akira, etc.



But I doubt anyone cares for this is a game. However, feel free to test what I said by making models yourself out of oh paper and such. Though don't think the plastic models that would be made if this thing is indeed going to be cannon will last long. :p

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Will this Enterprise have seat-belts?

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So outside of the Wrath Of Khan when the Enterprise blows the nacelle off of the Reliant... can ANYONE point to a single instance where the neck of the ship or the nacelle PYLONS themselves were at risk? Or damaged? Or about to become an issue? Or ever mentioned as a potential trouble-point?

I can think of one or two from the novels... but aside from TWOK I can't think of a single on-screen incident.

Plenty of warp-core burps... a few nacelle problems... but never a structural problem with the neck or pylons.

Hmmm...
TNG but mostly due to saucer separation.

Also, considering they're the thinnest parts of the hull, it would make sense to go for the neck or pylons.

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Someone hand me a barf bag, the Enterprise F design looks so hideous I need to throw up.

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Someone hand me a barf bag, the Enterprise F design looks so hideous I need to throw up.

They said the same thing about the Galaxy-class and the NX-class at one point too.

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I think this diary was a great idea. I look forward to following the trials and tribble-ations toward a final design.

Having read some of the critical observations thus far, I'm reminded of a debate I got into with a fellow fan when The Next Generation first aired on television.

Me: So what do you think of the Galaxy-class?

Friend: How could they? It flies in the face of warp dynamics!

Me: Warp dynamics according to who, exactly?

My friend goes on to relate an #irc group he was a part of. Like myself, some were fans of a variety of fan written, fan published starship technical blueprints or manuals. It was an amazing period of innovative ideas at a time of very little Star Trek. Save a few films. I still hold some of manuals in high esteem. As they are, IMO, incredible works. However, as much I enjoy them the authors/artists never did establish with certainty that which is or that which isn't acceptable for good design. All of it was/is mere conjecture and opinion.

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I hope the Enterprise-F makes it onto a book cover. ^______^

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MrJ, I believe all the real Star Trek fans agree with you on this.
While I don't particularly care for (most aspects of) the design either, I gotta say that you're waaay outta line to say something like that. You really have no business making a claim that there is a distinction between who is and who isn't a "real" fan based on whether or not people like or dislike this ship.

:rolleyes:

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I like what they did with the design and am glad that it is not again a round saucer. The egg shaped saucer suits the design better I think, seeing this I think it could be a worthy Enterprise successor after all.:)

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While I don't particularly care for (most aspects of) the design either, I gotta say that you're waaay outta line to say something like that. You really have no business making a claim that there is a distinction between who is and who isn't a "real" fan based on whether or not people like or dislike this ship.

:rolleyes:

Would it be irony if "real Startrek fans" were close-minded people trying to keep the riff-raff out?

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Hm,

i think the design is ok, but also nothing special atm to be honest. Except the dual necks, of course... but i really don't like the dual necks... they don't feel like TREK for me. Trek design was always a perfect combination of functionality and design. Connecting the saucer section to the engineering with a dual neck is just illogical. Why should they do it? The single neck was the perfect combination of functionality/design.

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This is such a safe design, nothing too radical or inspiring, a true variant/refit to the Sovie, you could almost see a c-store skin show up really.

The necks appear to serve as impulse winglets for the Primary upon saucer separation, maybe there are more separation modules in this design? Its puzzling indeed!

The Warp Drives are safe in appearance, nothing big, no Transwarp, Slipstream radical speedster design...just Sovieish, a few steps forward maybe.

It's size? Will it really be huge? Will it claim the size title compared to the Galaxy or its Dreadnought in-game. Wish the Emissary owned that title first. Scale is so out of whack in-game anyway.

When looking at this can anyone answer what it can do better than the Sovie or the Emissary, the Galaxy or it's Dreadnought variant?

What makes the Enterprise - F better than those before her?

What special features of advanced design were incorporated into the F to make it stand out as Star Fleet's answer to its specifications for the conflicts ahead and present in the STOverse? Thats is unless she was not designed for war but for something else?

All I'm seeing atm is a safe design for a Sovie skin, there is nothing that radical in how the neck is displayed and why in any case was there a need for a trimaran between primary and secondary?
Trimaran is a very vulnerable structure, why risk the potential for a Dominion style neck strike?

Is there something about this ship we are not immediately seeing?

Will this ship face up to the Iconian threat? What was it designed to face up to? Was it designed to face up to anything?

So far I'm just seeing a new Enterprise-F scream SAFE IP! meh...

Now when the Galaxy appeared THAT was a controversial and radical design that got everyone talking! Still does!

It most certainly created an iconic reinvention of the Enterprise and stirred up enough dust to relaunch Star Trek globally and successfully.

Great way to promote something than just samo samo ho hum! ^^

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stuff

This guy is right. It's too "Sovereign with Oberth-like features and extra lumpiness" to really be something forward and new. I'm not sure why this design generated a lot of internal discussion, supposedly, except for 'wtf is that neck?' which isn't how I'd judge a good entry.

Now, that one that got the most fan votes, which I actually didn't like overall either, that one struck a great, energetic profile from some views and then made me go 'wait, what?" from some others. It was a departure from standard cruiser geometry, edging a little bit toward the arrangement of the bothersome 1701-J without actually mimicking anything or jumping off the cliff of absolute absurdity.

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So outside of the Wrath Of Khan when the Enterprise blows the nacelle off of the Reliant... can ANYONE point to a single instance where the neck of the ship or the nacelle PYLONS themselves were at risk? Or damaged? Or about to become an issue? Or ever mentioned as a potential trouble-point?

I can think of one or two from the novels... but aside from TWOK I can't think of a single on-screen incident.

Plenty of warp-core burps... a few nacelle problems... but never a structural problem with the neck or pylons.

Hmmm...

1) The aforementioned Wrath of Khan: The Enterprise blows off the the Reliant's warp nacelle, that dome-thing behind the bridge, scores either a direct or near hit to the bridge, and takes out its torpedo launcher. The Reliant, for it's parts, slices a neat little section out of one side of the Enterprise's torpedo launcher, located at the bast of the latter's neck...

2) "Cause and Effect" (TNG) (http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Cause_and_Effect_(episode)): The time displaced Bozeman stikes the Enterprise-D's starboard warp nacelle, causing a cascade reaction that destroys the ship (one could assume the same happens to the Bozeman, since it was a nacelle-on-nacelle strike). Over and over and over...

3) "The Chase" (TNG) (http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Cause_and_Effect_(episode)): Two Cardassian cruisers fire their phasers on the warp nacelles of both the Enterprise and a Klingon ship. Along with some sabotage, this was clearly meant to disable both ship's warp capabilities. Only early detection prevented the Enterprise from being damaged (the Klingons weren't so fortunate, even though they too had advanced warning).

4) Star Trek: Generations (http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Star_Trek:_Generations): B'Etor was clearly heard ordering the weapons officer to "target their bridge" before the Enterprise crew managed to hack the Duras sisters' cloaking device and destroy them.

5) "The Jem'Hadar" (DS9) (http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/The_Jem'Hadar_(episode)): During the space battle between the Jem'Hadar and the Federation, the initial shots from the Jem'Hadar fighters clearly takes out a warp nacelle of the Odyssey (and given how "efficient" the Jem'Hadar are described, I doubt it was an accident). At the end of the fight, when the one Jem'Hadar fighter rams the Odyssey, it's clearly aiming for the section where the secondary/engineering hull connects with the ship's neck (although the damage indicated that it took out the deflector dish and the forward torpedo launcher).

6) "Tears of the Prophets" (DS9) (http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Tears_of_the_Prophets_(episode)): Once again, the Jem'Hadar are shown ramming their ships into others, though their targets are Klingon ships this time. And again, the Jem'Hadar are shown deliberately targeting the long neck brace that connects the command "bulb" with the engineering sections. It doesn't matter if their Birds-of-Prey or the larger Attack Cruisers: apparently, a ship's "neck" is, for the Jem'Hadar at least, a bullseye target.

I'm sure others could find other examples besides theses.

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You know, I find it greatly amusing that so many people are giving the chosen design so much flak for having a neck somewhat inspired by the Oberth's design, while most of the people I've seen making the most complaints about it keep referencing a model that, to me, looks like a 25th century Oberth, period.

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You know, I find it greatly amusing that so many people are giving the chosen design so much flak for having a neck somewhat inspired by the Oberth's design, while most of the people I've seen making the most complaints about it keep referencing a model that, to me, looks like a 25th century Oberth, period.

Exactly which design are you talking about people talking about? I can't think of one that fits that description.

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You know, I find it greatly amusing that so many people are giving the chosen design so much flak for having a neck somewhat inspired by the Oberth's design, while most of the people I've seen making the most complaints about it keep referencing a model that, to me, looks like a 25th century Oberth, period.

Well, let's face it; necks on starships have been going out of style within Starfleet since Voyager (and the Intrepid-class in general) was revealed. Kinda got thrown out in First Contact; none of the new ships revealed in that film have "necks" as we have been familiar with. The Akira and Steamrunner classes (and perhaps the Norway) have pylons, but that's different from a neck.

Which is one of my major objections to the design of the F (and by extention, the J); it doesn't follow the more streamline design pattern Starfleet was apparently establishing after First Contact. But as others have said, I'm not going to make a big brew hah-hah out of it. As with the Galaxy-X (which I don't like either) I just won't play it and won't object if others do.

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I just do not like the front end of the ship as it is currently. There are oberth necks on the ship. I can see there being a 1/2 neck, or it was built into the secondary hull, but what I am seeing is something that connects a well-designed saucer into a moderately designed secondary hull. I think that area needs to be worked on before it shall be accepted in the minds of many fans.

Note to OP...you can be a fan and not like necks...I sure don't have one :D

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Exactly which design are you talking about people talking about? I can't think of one that fits that description.

Fuzzy Modem's. Ever since I first looked at it when the contest was still running, I've thought it looked more like an updated Oberth than flagship meant to carry the name Enterprise.

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1) The aforementioned Wrath of Khan: The Enterprise blows off the the Reliant's warp nacelle, that dome-thing behind the bridge, scores either a direct or near hit to the bridge, and takes out its torpedo launcher. The Reliant, for it's parts, slices a neat little section out of one side of the Enterprise's torpedo launcher, located at the bast of the latter's neck...


6) "Tears of the Prophets" (DS9) (http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Tears_of_the_Prophets_(episode)): Once again, the Jem'Hadar are shown ramming their ships into others, though their targets are Klingon ships this time. And again, the Jem'Hadar are shown deliberately targeting the long neck brace that connects the command "bulb" with the engineering sections. It doesn't matter if their Birds-of-Prey or the larger Attack Cruisers: apparently, a ship's "neck" is, for the Jem'Hadar at least, a bullseye target.

I'm sure others could find other examples besides theses.

The rest were shots to other locations. The nacelles... are not the pylons. That's what I asked... pylon shots NOT nacelle damage.

#6 I will take a look at tonight when I get home I don't recall seeing this... But it has been awhile. :)

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The rest were shots to other locations. The nacelles... are not the pylons. That's what I asked... pylon shots NOT nacelle damage.

Hmm, I suppose you're right; although you would think that would be something an enemy commander might notice. After all, what better way to take out a warp nacelle than to cut off the pylon? ;)

#6 I will take a look at tonight when I get home I don't recall seeing this... But it has been awhile. :)

Might just look it up on youTube instead of watching the entire ep (and forgive me if that's what you intend to do).

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There are other things that an enemy ship might do..such as fly into the neck, like the Jem Hadar did...but making the ship so much like the Oberth with having the neck there being the only connection to the secondary hull...and it being so fragile...all an enemy has to do is get into there and the ship would be......rendered ineffective in combat...not like the ones with a neck would fare any better, but it seems as though it is a weak point in the design from a tactical viewpoint.

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I like the design allot, I'm a child of the 60s and grew up with the original Connie, however I never liked the look of the Enterprise in the Generations series, it was just not very sleek looking. I would like to see this new Enterprise made in such a way that when the saucer separates the two necks stay attached to the saucer and slide outward with 2 Nacelle's giving the ship and battle bridge both nacelle propulsion.
Just my 2 ccoppers
Mor

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Fuzzy Modem's. Ever since I first looked at it when the contest was still running, I've thought it looked more like an updated Oberth than flagship meant to carry the name Enterprise.

o_0 I'm not its biggest fan (though I prefer it to the winner), but all its bits join to a unified, blocky structure instead of any thin necks. Geometrically, it's about as close to the opposite of the Oberth as possible.

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o_0 I'm not its biggest fan (though I prefer it to the winner), but all its bits join to a unified, blocky structure instead of any thin necks. Geometrically, it's about as close to the opposite of the Oberth as possible.

Is that a good thing or not?...I think that it's a step in the right direction....correct?

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I'd say so, yeah. It's actually a lot more of a step towards the J, in a way that makes sense, than this entry. Instead of having the saucer attach to the engineering hull then to the nacelles, it's a unibody structure that foreshadows future development.

Meh. He's working on it with Probert, but it seems cryptic doesn't want it, even though he's getting as close to an official endorsement as possible.

As for this thing, the dual necks are still way too obvious, and overbearing on the design, and the engineering hull is made of awkward. And the saucer looks like a squashed sovereign saucer. Ick.

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o_0 I'm not its biggest fan (though I prefer it to the winner), but all its bits join to a unified, blocky structure instead of any thin necks. Geometrically, it's about as close to the opposite of the Oberth as possible.

Well, you're focusing on structural design, while I'm judging mostly on the general shape of the ship. From head-on, to me it looks like an Oberth refitted using pieces from the Excelsior and Sovereign classes. Sure, the gaps were filled in, but it still feels to me like it wasn't meant for the front lines of a multi-front war dividing a significant chunk of two quadrants, but rather should be mapping nebulae and cataloging gaseous anomalies. From the side, I'll admit, the ship lacks the Oberth-ness I mentioned, for the most part, but the hybrid neck/nacelle pylons don't sit well with me, especially with how far below the saucer the engineering hull is.

I DO like the nacelles themselves, however, with the way the blue and red sort of fade into each other near the front.

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hmmmmm, things seem to be getting heated in here lol... its probably a good thing tornados were touching down all around me yesterday, so i logged off...

ive been keeping up with this thread, and i see points from all sides... however, i dont see where certain posters get off accusing anyone of anything to do with religion. that being said, everyone is entitled to their opinion, and yes you can disagree, but you should do so in a calm, collected, and non aggressive way. when i get super heated, i usually walk away, so i dont get banned (cause i have a lack of self control when it comes to the heat of battle lol..)...

ok im done preaching.....

this is star trek,,, some people are as attached to and obsessed with this franchise as some people are with star wars, or lord of the rings, or dungeons and dragons... the franchise and the game are meant to trigger peoples imaginations.. and sto is a conduit to realize what our imaginations have been dreaming up in a visual textured environment.

so when something comes across that people dont like, and it is forced into their imaginary world, well,not only does that suck, but they have the right to voice their opinion.. true some people go a little over the top, but that is because of the passion they feel for their star trek universe...

in the example of this enterprise contest, i feel a mistake was made, not in what ship was picked, but who picked it... i think it would have been easier for fans to swallow had cbs picked it. (i know they had to ok it, but who knows what a cbs panel would have picked)... cbs had the design the titan contest, and that went fairly smoothly. why you ask, well there were tighter peramiters to the contest, they basically said what the layout of the ship needed to be, if i remember correctly, they stated where they wanted each individual part, so they laid out the basic shape. my titan book s are stored away at the moment, but it hink the peramiters were something like they wanted the stardrive attachd to the saucerdirectly, that they wantd the necells below the saucer, the ship needed a mission pod... stuff like that...

this is the enterprise f, it is being supported by cbs, soft canon of not, it will probably gain previlance to that of the titan, the titans image is the undisputed canon image of the luna class vessel, weather it is actual canon or not.. think to yourselves, if a game came out with a luna class ship that looked nothing like the current luna class, everyone would lose their minds over it... the same will probably be true of the enterprise f.

now myself, i like the ship, but it is no enterprise, well not a 25th century enterprise. the coment about the jj styles changing everything is mute, as it has been stated that the jj movie in no way influences this time line... id love to see this as a ship in the game, but just not as the enterprise... my feelings are that it wasnt the design that failed, but the contest... i mean it was a contest to design the next enterprise, and there were more guidlines in the titan contest than there were in this contest... it boggles my mind... lol....

as far as weather you like it or not, simply stating that you hate it is not helpfull, describe what turns you off, show that you are making an educated decision, and not an impulsive hate post.. believe me, your point will hold more ground if you explain why you dont like it rather than saying, "god i hate this ship", or, "i love this"

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Wrong. Trek itself hasn't been rebooted

It's been rebooted as a whole. There's the movies. And ... the movies. That's all right now.

The JJ verse IS the trek verse. That's hard canon. And all you're getting being made.

This game? The books? The reruns?

They're not what's moving the universe forward. For some of you I understand how hard that can be to accept. But that's how hollywood goes sometimes.

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It's been rebooted as a whole. There's the movies. And ... the movies. That's all right now.

The JJ verse IS the trek verse. That's hard canon. And all you're getting being made.

This game? The books? The reruns?

They're not what's moving the universe forward. For some of you I understand how hard that can be to accept. But that's how hollywood goes sometimes.

What you seemingly fail to understand is that the IP was divided between CBS and Paramount. So there are two Star Treks, you may want the Abrams version to be the "real" one but it simply isn't so. CBS and Cryptic have stated that time line isn't relevant, for the most part, to their own take on the Star Trek universe. The fans are free to choose whichever side in this domestic squabble that they like but as far as STO goes those movie(s) are no more relevant than any other soft canon source; because that is what CBS considers them to be.

As for me, I side with CBS, Abrams wanted to turn Star Trek into Star Wars and he largely succeeded and he is welcome to his pocket dimension delusions of Death Star style Romulan "mining" ships.

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Well, let's face it; necks on starships have been going out of style within Starfleet since Voyager (and the Intrepid-class in general) was revealed.

But necks are back with the current movie and the one being made. From the Kelvin to the JJ Enterprise. Necks are back. Voyager? First Contact? Dated and done with.

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What you seemingly fail to understand is

No I get that. It's not relevant. There is the movies. And that's it. This game doesn't even really count. And is designing things in a 25th century future that doesn't have to hold true to anything that appeared in the shows when creating a "new" enterprise. So trying to suggest that the "trend" was to move away from necks? Is pointless. The devs chose this design. The game is telling you that necks are fine.

So at this point it's just a subjective jaunt into what you personally like and don't like. You can't use shows from a dead property that got retconned out of existence to back up your point.

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But necks are back with the current movie and the one being made. From the Kelvin to the JJ Enterprise. Necks are back. Voyager? First Contact? Dated and done with.

Those are still 23rd century ships, though. ;)

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now myself, i like the ship, but it is no enterprise, well not a 25th century enterprise. the coment about the jj styles changing everything is mute,

You use the word mute and the actual word you were trying to use, moot, incorrectly in the context of your statement.

However, I would like to point out to you that Lord of the Rings universe has the most intractable setup of any of the examples you provide. The fan input is exceptionally meaningless when applied to a "world" created by Tolkien. He set the rules and standards for his world. You get what he wrote (or all the later published notes that his son dug up). And that's it. That's all you get. Arguments about middle earth are even more meaningless than arguments about star trek lore. Star Trek, at the very least, is a still growing, still living entity that keeps getting things added to it. Middle Earth is not only finished, the author himself tells you at the end that the third age passed. Done. Finis.

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Those are still 23rd century ships, though. ;)

So? The only ships being argued about here are 24th century ships like the Intrepid. Just as dated.

;)

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So? The only ships being argued about here are 24th century ships like the Intrepid. Just as dated.

;)

Well, the game is set in the "Prime" Universe, 30-40 years after Nemesis et. all, after all. Not in the JJverse. :p

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It's been rebooted as a whole. There's the movies. And ... the movies. That's all right now.

The JJ verse IS the trek verse. That's hard canon. And all you're getting being made.

This game? The books? The reruns?

They're not what's moving the universe forward. For some of you I understand how hard that can be to accept. But that's how hollywood goes sometimes.

The 2009 film may have been a "reboot" from a RL point of view(giving the franchise a fresh new start), however it wasnt a "reboot" from a story point of view. The original timeline that all the previous shows and movies took place in continues to exist alongside the new alternate JJ-universe in the same way the Mirror Universe exists alongside the normal universe.

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But necks are back with the current movie and the one being made. From the Kelvin to the JJ Enterprise. Necks are back. Voyager? First Contact? Dated and done with.

well since its all about eh style of the ship, i hope cryptic ads a coach handbag for my ship, and mybe some shoes lol....

im sorry, when i see someone say neck are back in, it took me there lol....

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The 2009 film may have been a "reboot" from a RL point of view(giving the franchise a fresh new start), however it wasnt a "reboot" from a story point of view. The original timeline that all the previous shows and movies took place in continues to exist alongside the new alternate JJ-universe in the same way the Mirror Universe exists alongside the normal universe.

This.

So necks in the 24th century were being dropped and in the 25th are totally out of fashion.

That makes the design by Mr. Ihle a "retro" design by 25th century standards.

As I stated somewhere else because I couldn't add my two cents here, the 3D model presented in the recent diary, looks now as a Starfleet ship.

But I fail to see "enterprise" anywhere on it. If I had this ship as ingame choice as, say, T6 cruiser, I probably would pick it.

Also is there some base to the rumor that Mr. Ihle's feedback has been not asked for or ignored? Apparently, he keeps polishing the design, even if he himself admits he should be doing something else with his time.

Edit: wrote wrong the contest winner name.

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No I get that. It's not relevant. There is the movies. And that's it. This game doesn't even really count. And is designing things in a 25th century future that doesn't have to hold true to anything that appeared in the shows when creating a "new" enterprise. So trying to suggest that the "trend" was to move away from necks? Is pointless. The devs chose this design. The game is telling you that necks are fine.

So at this point it's just a subjective jaunt into what you personally like and don't like. You can't use shows from a dead property that got retconned out of existence to back up your point.

Considering that the entire game is based off of the property that you claim is dead seems to argue that you can indeed use them as relevant source material to suggest otherwise is a bit of sophistry unworthy of consideration. You can make any argument you wish as to which canon environment is the most relevant outside of the game but in terms of developments in STO the shows are clearly still the predominant source of canon.*

I would suggest, instead, that given that this game states that the Abrams version is an alternate reality that you could not logically utilize any feature of that reality to support any argument for things in the context of this game. That would include, sadly for your case, design features of a Starship in a universe where the Abrams time line never occurred.

Personally, I don't care much whether the ship has a neck, no neck, of a dozen necks. I wanted to engage you on your utilization of Abrams material.

*Please note that I would make the argument that outside of STO that the shows are still more relevant as canon given that they represent roughly 600 - 700 hours of material not including the earlier movies and Abrams has present us with roughly 2 hours of material. If Paramount were the only holder of IP rights I suppose you could make an argument that two hours trumped the rest, but given that CBS also holds IP rights and has stated its an alternate reality and that CBS rights hold the vast majority of the IPs material. I would say the shows are very safely classified as canon.

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well since its all about eh style of the ship, i hope cryptic ads a coach handbag for my ship, and mybe some shoes lol....

im sorry, when i see someone say neck are back in, it took me there lol....

:)

That made me chuckle. And that's fine. I mean I just can't get all intent on this discussion you know? So levity is much appreciated. Keeps the tone proper on the discussion.

It's a ship. It's being designed. It's actually one of the things I'm most looking forward to from the developers because it should be one of the key things that hopefully moves the game's content forward. In some way shape or form. I hope? I mean a new Enterprise. It lets the story go forward. It lets the gameplay/endgame/whatever go forward. I have a lot of hopes tied into the ship. Most of them not really too connected to its actual look.

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You can make any argument you wish

Here's the best argument I can make:

It WON the design contest.

It IS being developed.

The drawing had the two necks. The model has the two necks. The dev team seems to be sticking with the design that they felt won the contest.

So if your claim is that the game itself is part of a canon/world/set of guidelines you adhere to, then the mere fact that this is the look being chosen suggests that neck pylons like that are not only "in" they're part of starfleet's design ideas moving forward.

What many of you are trying to argue is that you want this design changed. But the design won.

[Archived Post]

The 2009 film may have been a "reboot" from a RL point of view(giving the franchise a fresh new start), however it wasnt a "reboot" from a story point of view. The original timeline that all the previous shows and movies took place in continues to exist alongside the new alternate JJ-universe in the same way the Mirror Universe exists alongside the normal universe.

To put this in X-Men terms, the JJ Verse is 1602 universe. You guys are arguing that the Age of Apocalypse counts. But other than a few dooders that crossed over (Spock = dark Beast) it doesn't anymore. That universe is on the other side, a divergent timeline.

The JJ Verse is what's what.

As we'll see with the next actual hard canon trek property. The next movie.

[Archived Post]

To put this in X-Men terms.

Theres no need to put it any terms other than Star Trek terms, which is what I described in my last post. Just to be clear, I completely agree that as far as the real world goes the JJ-Trek is all we're likely to see on the big screen any time soon. But CBS still has the rights to the TV shows, not Paramount. And its possible that 10 years from now once the "new" has worn off of the JJ-Trek CBS might decide to make a new series set post Nemesis.

And as far as the actual story goes, the "prime" timeline that all of the TV shows and movies up to Nemesis take place in still exists and will continue to be developed in various books, comics, games, etc until CBS decides to do something else with it in the future.

[Archived Post]

Putting it in X-men terms doesn't make it any clearer, to be honest. Even some avid comic readers have a hard time wrapping their head around why in some comics Spider-man needs fluid canisters to shoot webs and why in others he shoots them directly from his wrists... Trying to explain why the prime universe still exists is like getting to that point and then having to explain why in another comic Spider-man wears aviation goggles and has a gun.

[Archived Post]

@Superchurn

What I fail to see is why did you make a triple post instead of editing your answer if you felt like adding more to it.

When I'm reading several pages of a thread and I feel like answering more than one of them, I start hitting the "quote" button with the Ctrl key pressed. This way I get one copy to reply to the post I want to address and keep reviewing the thread.

When I've got to the end of the thread, I copy & paste all the posts and their answers into one, and hit the post just once.

[Archived Post]

And as far as the actual story goes, the "prime" timeline that all of the TV shows and movies up to Nemesis take place in still exists and will continue to be developed in various books, comics, games, etc until CBS decides to do something else with it in the future.

That timeline is a divergent timeline and is being developed in soft canon source material like a book or a video game. The movie is the timeline that is hard canon. And is being developed in hard canon sources, such as the next movie.

You may think this game is the "prime" timeline. But currently it is Earth-2. Age of Apocalypse. It is the dead IP that is solely the playground of reruns and books that people love to argue aren't even canon. It is Memory Beta, fan fic like Starfleet Corps of Engineers vanity published books, and the USS Aventine.

JJ-Verse is Trek now.

[Archived Post]

@Superchurn

What I fail to see is why did you make a triple post instead of editing your answer if you felt like adding more to it.

When I'm reading several pages of a thread and I feel like answering more than one of them, I start hitting the "quote" button with the Ctrl key pressed. This way I get one copy to reply to the post I want to address and keep reviewing the thread.

When I've got to the end of the thread, I copy & paste all the posts and their answers into one, and hit the post just once.

Since each post is part of different aspects of a conversation, I respond to them individually. You may not like reading multiple short posts.

That's ok.

I myself do not like reading text bombs that smoosh varying ideas and conversations into one long scrolling marathon of discussion with various people.

Neither format violates any rules of posting or ettiquette. It's all good.

[Archived Post]

That timeline is a divergent timeline and is being developed in soft canon source material like a book or a video game. The movie is the timeline that is hard canon. And is being developed in hard canon sources, such as the next movie.

All TV shows and movies are hard canon. That means both timelines are hard canon. Just because there isnt anything new going on(canon wise) with the prime timeline ATM doesnt change the fact that it is still hard canon.

You may think this game is the "prime" timeline.

I dont "think" anything. That is what CBS decided as they had to approve all of the story elements of this game. But while the game it set in the prime timeline, it is not actually canon itself(just based on canon).

[Archived Post]

Someone hand me a barf bag, the Enterprise F design looks so hideous I need to throw up.

Says the person with the ugly-as-sin Cochrane class in their sig banner.

[Archived Post]

When I'm reading several pages of a thread and I feel like answering more than one of them, I start hitting the "quote" button with the Ctrl key pressed. This way I get one copy to reply to the post I want to address and keep reviewing the thread.

When I've got to the end of the thread, I copy & paste all the posts and their answers into one, and hit the post just once.

There's also the multi-quote button ("+) next to the quote button that does the same thing and you don't have to do the whole copy-paste dance. Just hit that for every quote you want to respond to and use the normal quote button when you've reached the last post you want to reply to. When the edit box comes up you'll have each post that you wanted to reply to quoted in there.

[Archived Post]

All TV shows and movies are hard canon. That means both timelines are hard canon. Just because there isnt anything new going on(canon wise) with the prime timeline ATM doesnt change the fact that it is still hard canon.



I dont "think" anything. That is what CBS decided as they had to approve all of the story elements of this game. But while the game it set in the prime timeline, it is not actually canon itself(just based on canon).

If they are ever able to make another TV show again, then we'll see.

As of right now the only HARD canon being made is the JJ verse movies. Which means this "prime" universe you cling to is just a bunch of reruns in a divergent timeline. It's a dead IP until someone revives it. It's not being revived in the next couple of years.

So you're left with books that are flights of fancy that some people like to call fanfic.

Good luck with that. I'll be off standing in line to watch the next adventure of Kirk and Spock. The real Trek. Being made for real. Right now.

Now this discussion is getting seriously sidetracked. This topic is about the new Enterprise-F. Which there's no way around this. You can cite Voyager and First Contact all you want. But this game decided on the F's look. That means the two pylons are in. They are starfleet. They are the future. Why? Because that's the design that is being made.

So there is no trend towards Voyager design principles anymore. That time has passed.

[Archived Post]

If they are ever able to make another TV show again, then we'll see.

As of right now the only HARD canon being made is the JJ verse movies. Which means this "prime" universe you cling to is just a bunch of reruns in a divergent timeline. It's a dead IP until someone revives it. It's not being revived in the next couple of years.

So you're left with books that are flights of fancy that some people like to call fanfic.

Good luck with that. I'll be off standing in line to watch the next adventure of Kirk and Spock. The real Trek. Being made for real. Right now.

Now this discussion is getting seriously sidetracked. This topic is about the new Enterprise-F. Which there's no way around this. You can cite Voyager and First Contact all you want. But this game decided on the F's look. That means the two pylons are in. They are starfleet. They are the future. Why? Because that's the design that is being made.

So there is no trend towards Voyager design principles anymore. That time has passed.

You seem to be under the misimpression that my comments reflect some emotional attachment; they do not. My comments are the facts, nothing more or less. Storywise, both timelines are canon. Period. In real life only the JJ-verse is being actively developed at the moment, but that doesnt change the fact that the prime timeline is still canon. Nothing you say changes any of that.

[Archived Post]

If they are ever able to make another TV show again, then we'll see.

As of right now the only HARD canon being made is the JJ verse movies. Which means this "prime" universe you cling to is just a bunch of reruns in a divergent timeline. It's a dead IP until someone revives it. It's not being revived in the next couple of years.

So you're left with books that are flights of fancy that some people like to call fanfic.

Good luck with that. I'll be off standing in line to watch the next adventure of Kirk and Spock. The real Trek. Being made for real. Right now.

This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Atari Community Rules and Policies (http://forums.startrekonline.com/announcement.php?f=118&a=5) ~InfoNinja

[Archived Post]

So outside of the Wrath Of Khan when the Enterprise blows the nacelle off of the Reliant... can ANYONE point to a single instance where the neck of the ship or the nacelle PYLONS themselves were at risk? Or damaged? Or about to become an issue? Or ever mentioned as a potential trouble-point?

I can think of one or two from the novels... but aside from TWOK I can't think of a single on-screen incident.

Plenty of warp-core burps... a few nacelle problems... but never a structural problem with the neck or pylons.

Hmmm...

You rasie a great point, even at Wolf 359 or Chintoka, most of the ships that "bought the farm" so to speak had their primary hull get smashed to bits. In fact, the only time I've seen a neck get done in was when Jem'Hadar attack ships were making kamikaze runs, and it's a Vor'cha that we saw it happen to. Even the super fragile Oberth mostly died conventionally, not from pylon exploitation shots/damage.

[Archived Post]

If they are ever able to make another TV show again, then we'll see.

As of right now the only HARD canon being made is the JJ verse movies. Which means this "prime" universe you cling to is just a bunch of reruns in a divergent timeline. It's a dead IP until someone revives it. It's not being revived in the next couple of years.

So you're left with books that are flights of fancy that some people like to call fanfic.

Good luck with that. I'll be off standing in line to watch the next adventure of Kirk and Spock. The real Trek. Being made for real. Right now.

Now this discussion is getting seriously sidetracked. This topic is about the new Enterprise-F. Which there's no way around this. You can cite Voyager and First Contact all you want. But this game decided on the F's look. That means the two pylons are in. They are starfleet. They are the future. Why? Because that's the design that is being made.

So there is no trend towards Voyager design principles anymore. That time has passed.

No offense, but when it comes down to it, it's no more real or less real than any book or video game, because it's all fiction, and no more or less enjoyable. "Dark Mirror" is not canon, but is about as good a Trek book as I've ever read. Same goes for "Forged in Fire" that deals with Sulu's becoming captain of the Excelsior, great book. Is it canon, or just fitting in with canon? It doesn't matter to me, because it was a serious case of "just one more chapter" that led to several late nights.

Conversely, as for the real Trek being made for real, right now, the reboot's yet to impress me. I much prefer the continuation of Star Trek through the other mediums such as STO and the books to the reboot direction, it's no more or less real to me since it's all fiction. You can call the books flights of fancy, but Star Trek as a whole is a flight of fancy.

[Archived Post]

If they are ever able to make another TV show again, then we'll see.

As of right now the only HARD canon being made is the JJ verse movies. Which means this "prime" universe you cling to is just a bunch of reruns in a divergent timeline. It's a dead IP until someone revives it. It's not being revived in the next couple of years.

So you're left with books that are flights of fancy that some people like to call fanfic.

Good luck with that. I'll be off standing in line to watch the next adventure of Kirk and Spock. The real Trek. Being made for real. Right now.

Now this discussion is getting seriously sidetracked. This topic is about the new Enterprise-F. Which there's no way around this. You can cite Voyager and First Contact all you want. But this game decided on the F's look. That means the two pylons are in. They are starfleet. They are the future. Why? Because that's the design that is being made.

So there is no trend towards Voyager design principles anymore. That time has passed.
Actually, I agree with Grand Nagus.

It's you in the wrong, not him.

If there is a new TV series, it will be backed by CBS canon, which doesn't cover Paramanount's, including the movie by JJA. The "reset" only applies to motion pictures. And they may or may not follow in JJA's new line, or go back to Nemesis.

As for not breaking rules, I'm not so sure. Accidental multiposting is one thing, doing it on purpose, is another subject entirely. I won't be hitting the "report" button on it, though. :)