Idea of pve/pvp barrier on items.

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Now this idea is for items. I know CO has this tech in place, where in PVP certain powers and items can not be used in PVP. Items meant to be used for PVE only.

On thinking about this, could this mechanic be used to limit items that are PVE design, from being abused in the PVP arena, and vice versa. It would allow the creation of two seperate item trees to begin to emerge. True PVP only equipment and items vs. true PVE equipement and items.

Here are some for instances... Cloaking mine, everyone remembers this fiasco yes? lol, it was soo funny, but to be honest for PVP, its was way way over powered. So much so that it had to be nerfed to oblivion and back to get it reasonable and now for PvE usage its fairly useless. If the tech was used, this would of been a non issue, as it could be tagged to be PVE only, and not allowed to function (gray out) in PVP so that it could not be exploited.

Another example is the Harpengh( or however yous pell it) torpedo. Yeah, for PVE its a good idea, to have a ship with 6 of these on it, spamming it, basically an "i win" button, yeah that isnt skill folks, that is just taking advantage of something not meant to be used in that fashion. Tag it PVE only, and that would stop the PVP exploit.

on the PVP side, now this opens the door for them to have very specific gear, designed for the PVP arena. this the team could maintain tighter control over. this would not only balance out the pvp side, it would not allow one side or the other to use "plot" devices as exploits.

It does open the door for PVP to have its own "plot" devices as well that one gets by doing X missions, or X wins, or X battles, etc. I am talking like entire sets, special powers etc.

Now comes the tough part... How to ID what would be considered a "plot" device... Hmm that is a toughy, yet understand I am only sharing a hypothetical thought.

To me, a "plot" device would be something that is only available to one side and not the other and/or an item that is set in game, that does have a unique power but is not set to a Unique status (meaning you can have more then one). Granted that is incredibly broad in its base coverage, but remember, this is only an Idea.

The thought is simply this, place a filter so that PVE plot items, can not be exploited into the pvp side, providing a measure of control to help in the growth of not only PVE but PVP as well.

This is very far reaching and I have no clue of it is even feasible to strive for, still, thought I share and see what folks thought or if any wanted to share on the subject.

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hmmmmm (http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee220/Ein-7919/mr__horse-1.jpg)

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This brings up the whole issue of "WTF, I did that whole mission and I get an item that I can't use in my game type?"

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I like the notion Mongoson but it does create issues.

First I think PvP is just about the best test bed for Fleet and STF builds. With this system it would be harder to use PvP as a metric for overall build effectiveness.

Second I like to be able to explore and do missions while I wait to see if I am gonna get lucky and get a PvP match. If we have PvP and PvE specific gear this means that I have to carry extra gear with me on my ship so I can swap out of PvE mode to still be effective in PvP. This means less available cargo slots available on my toon and more trips back to ESD to make space.

Then there is the issue of me being brain dead. What if I get some prime PvE gear and do not notice that it can't be used in PvP or I forget, which I am wont to do, and now I have a useless weapon, or worse a shield in PvP and don't know or notice till it is too late? I'll be a liability to any team or PUG that is stuck with me.

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I like the notion Mongoson but it does create issues.

First I think PvP is just about the best test bed for Fleet and STF builds. With this system it would be harder to use PvP as a metric for overall build effectiveness.

Second I like to be able to explore and do missions while I wait to see if I am gonna get lucky and get a PvP match. If we have PvP and PvE specific gear this means that I have to carry extra gear with me on my ship so I can swap out of PvE mode to still be effective in PvP. This means less available cargo slots available on my toon and more trips back to ESD to make space.

Then there is the issue of me being brain dead. What if I get some prime PvE gear and do not notice that it can't be used in PvP or I forget, which I am wont to do, and now I have a useless weapon, or worse a shield in PvP and don't know or notice till it is too late? I'll be a liability to any team or PUG that is stuck with me.

Hmm, most the filters that work work only one way, In this case I am suggesting that a PVE>>PVP filter. This would keep things like Harp torp and cloaking mines (both of which should of been unique items to begins with) balanced out from entering pvp that will get exploited. I test a large amount of explotation out for my fleet, most my time in STO is testing things out for folks or the ideas i myself come up with.

The idea, my apologies for not communicating this well, is not to allow that PVE into PVP. PVP is a good basis and the filter does not work in reverse, Just thinking of a way to stop the PVE exploitation into PVP. Everyone likes to have fun, but no one likes to meet a person who uses exploits to win consistantly. But, to place the shoe on the other foot, its allowed to be there, and some folks are just driven to be the best they can be. So should they be condemn for figuring out a better mouse trap? Not in my opinion.

Still I see the point as well. How to even make such an idea work well and seemless. It is indeed a daunting thing and may not even be realistic int he current tech set of the game. CO does it well however, but their set is based on "power abilities" not weapon or item abilities, which is a much much broader thing.

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Hmm, most the filters that work work only one way, In this case I am suggesting that a PVE>>PVP filter. This would keep things like Harp torp and cloaking mines (both of which should of been unique items to begins with) balanced out from entering pvp that will get exploited. I test a large amount of explotation out for my fleet, most my time in STO is testing things out for folks or the ideas i myself come up with.

The idea, my apologies for not communicating this well, is not to allow that PVE into PVP. PVP is a good basis and the filter does not work in reverse, Just thinking of a way to stop the PVE exploitation into PVP. Everyone likes to have fun, but no one likes to meet a person who uses exploits to win consistantly. But, to place the shoe on the other foot, its allowed to be there, and some folks are just driven to be the best they can be. So should they be condemn for figuring out a better mouse trap? Not in my opinion.

Still I see the point as well. How to even make such an idea work well and seemless. It is indeed a daunting thing and may not even be realistic int he current tech set of the game. CO does it well however, but their set is based on "power abilities" not weapon or item abilities, which is a much much broader thing.

These are the reasons I like the idea. I just had to point out where it concerns and absent minded player like myself. To make it seamless would take some work, perhaps a warning that you have non PvP gear equipped when you first queue up for a match could go a long way to keeping folk like me viable and engaged in PvP.

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My issue is that I feel we have as much right to those toys as PvEers. Cloaking tractor mines are in principle, a great idea, they just needed (and still need) to be implemented better, much better. Same goes for Hargh'Pengs.

The issue is not that they exist, it is that they didn't go through decent sanity testing and the UAT (User acceptance testing) model is woefully insufficient. Putting stuff on tribble is great, if you intend on then taking feedback on board and not just push it out as is anyway.

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My issue is that I feel we have as much right to those toys as PvEers. Cloaking tractor mines are in principle, a great idea, they just needed (and still need) to be implemented better, much better. Same goes for Hargh'Pengs.

The issue is not that they exist, it is that they didn't go through decent sanity testing and the UAT (User acceptance testing) model is woefully insufficient. Putting stuff on tribble is great, if you intend on then taking feedback on board and not just push it out as is anyway.

Yeah, I agree, that is part of the problem too.

If not enough testing is done, and the question asked, "what if" then limitations can not be made. For instance, making the cloak mine and the harp torp unique, think of how many issues that would of solved immediately. Still Artificialx is correct, i believe it as well that not enough testing, and too much rush rush is placed on getting things live without folks being able to tinker with it for more then a couple days.

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I will say, as someone who works in an IT support environment dealing with bespoke software, I understand that it is impossible to test everything thoroughly and still actually release updates. The user base will always be more exposed to and so more likely to find bugs, and in the case of gaming, exploits or broken mechanics.

The thing is however, I feel the resolution is relatively simple. The devs need to play the game, specifically PvP, a lot more often. I'm sure many devs play the game, but I KNOW many do not PvP regularly, if at all. The reason this is essential, is that PvP is as hard as this game will ever get, and if you don't understand the game at its hardest, you don't truly understand the game.

This game NEEDS to be balanced to PvP, and PvE will follow naturally, as any decent PvP build will wipe the floor with a "PvE" build, as will any decent PvP player. If you only balance the game at its easiest level, it is very easy, and hence quite common, for powers or items to be way overboard or ill-conceived when used by advanced players.

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This brings up the whole issue of "WTF, I did that whole mission and I get an item that I can't use in my game type?"

Well, if Cryptic can't get their new shiny PvE tools to work right and fixing them takes forever, maybe it's just better to not force them into PvP.
NPCs don't cry.
Of course, PvPers don't cry either, (hurhurhur), but we have feelings.

Maybe the default assumption should at least be: "Hey, here'S a new PvE special reward. it's unique but bind on equip for your pleasure." So people can use _one_ of them, and any extra ones they can sell on the Exchange if they need or want to repeat the mission and get the same reward.

Whatever they do, they need to find a better solution then what they have now.

Not allowing the TBMs or Hargh'Pengs in the first place would have been caused a lot less frustration, it sounds way easier to simply disable some fancy new toy then to get it balanced right on the first try.

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Well, if Cryptic can't get their new shiny PvE tools to work right and fixing them takes forever, maybe it's just better to not force them into PvP.
NPCs don't cry.
Of course, PvPers don't cry either, (hurhurhur), but we have feelings.

Maybe the default assumption should at least be: "Hey, here'S a new PvE special reward. it's unique but bind on equip for your pleasure." So people can use _one_ of them, and any extra ones they can sell on the Exchange if they need or want to repeat the mission and get the same reward.

Whatever they do, they need to find a better solution then what they have now.

Not allowing the TBMs or Hargh'Pengs in the first place would have been caused a lot less frustration, it sounds way easier to simply disable some fancy new toy then to get it balanced right on the first try.

Why do I get the sense that some kind of vetting process that does not allow mission rewards with extreme/novel effects into PvP till it is bug/exploit checked in PvE for a few months when I read this?

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I will say, as someone who works in an IT support environment dealing with bespoke software, I understand that it is impossible to test everything thoroughly and still actually release updates. The user base will always be more exposed to and so more likely to find bugs, and in the case of gaming, exploits or broken mechanics.

The thing is however, I feel the resolution is relatively simple. The devs need to play the game, specifically PvP, a lot more often. I'm sure many devs play the game, but I KNOW many do not PvP regularly, if at all. The reason this is essential, is that PvP is as hard as this game will ever get, and if you don't understand the game at its hardest, you don't truly understand the game.

This game NEEDS to be balanced to PvP, and PvE will follow naturally, as any decent PvP build will wipe the floor with a "PvE" build, as will any decent PvP player. If you only balance the game at its easiest level, it is very easy, and hence quite common, for powers or items to be way overboard or ill-conceived when used by advanced players.

Hmm, interesting line of thinking Artificialx. I am sitting here doing some studying on that. That is better then any thoughts I have had out. The balance issue may need to do just that, work in from that angle and then balance the rest. I run a pvp setup on my ships and yeah PVE I am pretty much immune unless i get in like 10+ ships on elite. Let me do some thinking and research on that, you might have a good path start there neighbor.

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Why do I get the sense that some kind of vetting process that does not allow mission rewards with extreme/novel effects into PvP till it is bug/exploit checked in PvE for a few months when I read this?

He makes just as of a valid point. Still, its another way of looking at the problem we are all discussing.

I reread it, yeah a good amount like mine, some others tossed in. Still some set procedures in place would help a great deal when new things come out. Question there becomes, what is acceptable on the testing phase? (first thought i had)

The balance issue, well its base prob is the wide open skill system, that is part of the issue too. but, not its main problem. The balance issue needs to be based on something that is steady and doesnt change. *ponders to think some more*

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Why do I get the sense that some kind of vetting process that does not allow mission rewards with extreme/novel effects into PvP till it is bug/exploit checked in PvE for a few months when I read this?
Because that could work. Or maybe not. The problem might be - if it's not available in PvP, you can't really test whether it's broken or not.

Maybe they should simply add 4 weeks of PvP testing on Holodeck for new items that they use to rebalance the item for PvP. If they feel like it, they can keep the same mechanics in PvE even after that testing period. It's obvious the PvP balance testing on Tribble fails. Either the critique is not heard, or it can't even form,since there aren't enough players active there. So they must dedicate some time for "post-release clean-up".

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This brings up the whole issue of "WTF, I did that whole mission and I get an item that I can't use in my game type?"

Right now it's more like "WTF I did this whole PVE mission and now I can't use the drop for PVP?" I don't think anything other than ships' standard equipment is even needed in PVE, so this gating thing is a bit moot.

AFK / Autofire for the epic win, Go PvE Go!

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Right now it's more like "WTF I did this whole PVE mission and now I can't use the drop for PVP?" !
I think that's what he meant, his favored gametype is PvP ;)

And in practice, it is pretty much like this already, because most PvPers don't like to use the broken stuff anymore. THey could, but they won't. So I see no big difference.

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Generally speaking, I think something that works one way in PvE should work the same way in PvP because PvP is already hard to pick up from the start. Having multiple skill sets or tiers of items that work one way here but another way there has the potential to hurt PvP (the potential for growth at least). Having said that, I'd like to suggest a couple of things that fly in the face of my original premise.


We need an RP Mode added to the difficulty slide that allows people to RP more easily, free of the confines of balance but with limitations. In this mode people could fly their sci ship around firing torpedoes that one shot NPCs through full shields but rewards are significantly reduced.

We also need Situational Consoles. These would probably be universal so as to accommodate any ship in a specific situation. The general idea would be to release, for example, a Borg console that boosts all ship parameters by a certain percentage against... you guessed it... the Borg. So without even adjusting your weapons, shields, engines or other equipment, suddenly your items all have stronger stats that are only effective against the Borg. This could even be used to boost Bridge Officer skills against the Borg but would have absolutely no effect in PvP since there are no Borg there. The logic breaks down a bit when you want a Federation or Klink console, but the understanding would be that it only works against NPCs.

The only reason I like this is because it's simple, dirty and to the point. The idea is that people can get their boost and be as awesome as they want to be without having to worry about little things like balance - in an environment where the enemy doesn't care about balance either. Also, since it's all this goodness wrapped up in a single console, development time could theoretically be shifted back to content and balance issues much more quickly.

Anyway, I know I've gone a bit off track here. but now I'm done. My bad:o.

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Hale, I do not think that was off topic as the gist of the topic is how do we maintain PvP balance while letting the PvE Kirks be Kirk. Your post is slathered with that and shows some very good out of the box thinking that lets everyone from PvPer, PvEer, RPer to Dev have their cake and eat it too. But all this is nothing more than my opinion.

Now I know why everyone says target Hale. :D

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Hale, I do not think that was off topic as the gist of the topic is how do we maintain PvP balance while letting the PvE Kirks be Kirk. Your post is slathered with that and shows some very good out of the box thinking that lets everyone from PvPer, PvEer, RPer to Dev have their cake and eat it too. But all this is nothing more than my opinion.

Now I know why everyone says target Hale. :D

Agreed. its a discussion, we toss idea's out on the table and see what this brings about into thought and also the views of other thoughts from others.

Interesting idea as well. I am doing some research right now in the pvp side, prob still remains a few things we have ID

1. New items do not get enough test time
2. To truly balance the game, have to have a solid measurement system. Question is, which is it?

Least so far. now to add to it, the slider rule a "rpg mode"

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I would suggest a simple counter to any new items. Harping resistant consoles, Mine seekers, etc. Give PvP players a way to fight back and defend against exploitive items.