My vision of a Crafting revamp.

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I'm sure by now most active Forum users have at least heard about the Crafting changes on Tribble and the reactions they have caused. They wanted to make Crafting take more effort, more time, and for the high-end gear to be something to brag about, while limiting an apparent problem with people mass-producing gear.

Their solution was to slap a Dilithium tax on all Even-Mark Craft-ables and call it a day, in the process killing the practice of Fleet crafting because Dilithium isn't trade-able (at present), nor is it likely to become Trade-able. I can understand their point of view with regard to the stated intentions, and I also understand PWs likely intention of creating another line towards the C-Store by including Dilithium in the process. At the same time, it has bugged me for a long time that Crafting in STO isn't really representative of the IP.

I believe I've come up with a solution that will make everyone (even the penny-pinchers at PWE) happy. It's based on multiple posts and Ideas from People like Alexraptor and Leviathan_99, but expounded and built upon by yours truly.

Step 1: Streamline Anomalies, but diversify Crafting materials.

Most anomalies are particles and traces of various sub-atomic matter. it has never made sense to me to have us crafting with them. We never heard Scotty or Geordie talking about using "Tachyon Wave Signatures" to improve a Phaser,or that the Impulse Engines needed a new "Alien Artifact".

So, we should simplify & rename them. Things that would nevertheless be scanned, and indeed used. A "Subspace Inversion Field" an "Envelope of Ionized Plasma", a "Magnetometric Material".. Those sorts of things, Memory Alpha (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Portal:Main) will prove useful here (and I know the Devs use it already :D )

Then, we add a new category of items, Materials (as opposed to Anomalies). We've got plenty of examples of these from trek as well, Neutronium, Parsteel, Polyduranium.. You get the idea. We can even use real materials, like Deuterium and Beryllium.

Step 2: Re-imagine crafting recipes, adding steps and time to the Crafting process.

We use the new materials and anomalies to formulate recipes for Components, for example, Photon Torpedoes. Photon Torpedoes are one of the most well-understood technologies in Trek. They are simple matter/antimatter reaction explosives, with independent engines & guidance, and variable yield warheads.

So, imagine this, you want to craft a Photon Torpedo Launcher. The Schematic (no longer crafted) calls for several Components, the Warheads, the Guidance System, the Torpedo Casing, the Warp-Sustainer coils, four or five things. More Components will be needed for higher rarity items, so a Mk I Photon Torpedo Launcher might only need one of each, but by the time you get to Very Rare, you might need 4 Warhead Components, 6 Casings, etc..

But, the precise numbers of these components will allow players to mix and match and come up with their preferred modifiers! So if you like your Torpedoes with Accuracy Bonuses (Acc), add more Guidance System Components then the Schematic calls for, maybe you'll get lucky! Like Damage modifiers (Dmg)? Add more Warheads!

Each of those Components has their own Schematics, Materials, and Anomalies. The Warhead needs Deuterium (Material) and Antimatter (Anomaly). The Guidance System needs Isolinear Composites (Material), Nanopolymers (Material), and a Recursive Subspace Filament (Anomaly).. You get the idea. Different Marks need more Materials and Anomalies to craft the right kind of Components.

All of these Components need to be crafted themselves, requiring Materials, Anomalies, and time, like the Doff System, I imagine each crafting process to take some time, differing by the Component and the End-Product. For example, for Photon Torpedoes, I imagine the cases taking five minutes, the Guidance System taking ten, and the Warheads taking a half-hour. But once all the various Components are acquired, you can create the End-Product, which will take anywhere from an Hour to 3 Hours.

But, like the Doff system, you can have multiple projects (like Assignments) going at any given time. Golds will have the number of Projects available increase as they level, while Silvers will have a restricted number that will not change.*

Step 3: Schematic, Material, and Anomaly acquisition changes.

Schematics will increase in number with this system, I admit, instead of schematics (which with this change will list the Components) for just the end-product, there will be Schematics for Components as well. Rather than crafting the Schematics (which never made sense to me), I propose we (again) link in the Doff System. Schematics can be acquired through Doff Assignments, Science, Engineering, Trade, even Espionage Assignments can be used to attain Schematics.

But if the Doff System isn't your cup of Tea, we can also have a Schematic store, with Schematics purchasable for EC. (There's finally an EC sink! YAY!!!!) Components will scale in price in the store as their Mark level increases, a Mk I Component schematic may only be 5-600 EC, but a Mk XII might well get into the tens of thousands. Schematics (as well as all Anomalies, Materials, and basic Componants) will be unbound, fully trade-able, and consumable, however, I mean consumable in the same way that Data Chips are Consumable on Tribble right now, once you've used a Photon Torpedo Casing Component Schematic Mk I, for example, that schematic is added to a sort of "recipe book", and you will never need to find or buy it again.

As to Anomaly acquisition, it will, for the most part, work the same way it does now. you'll still scan for them, still scan them, still do the mini-game.. But instead of different rarities of Anomalies being banded to different Fronts and Exploration sectors, all the Anomalies will be utilized at every level of crafting, so all the different fronts and Sectors will yield all the different kinds of Anomalies, and Doff missions will yield all the different kinds everywhere in the Galaxy.

Material acquisition will be similar to how Commodities are now, except they won't be able to be Replicated aboard our ships. You'll be able to buy them from select Vendors (but the rarer Mats like Neutronium won't be in the shops), as well as available through Various Doff Assignments and combat Drops.

Step 4: Economics, and the almighty Dollar.

"But Katic", you may be saying, "PW will never sign off on any of these changes or the Dev hours that will be needed to implement it just to make the game better, they'll want to monetize it somehow!"

You're right friend, they will, which is why I've already thought of a way for that to happen, in a way that is both acceptable, and likely, profitable.

To craft under my system , you'll need Schematics, Anomalies, and Materials to craft Components, and then more Schematics and those Components to craft actual usable gear. That's an awful lot of gathering and grinding, even with all of them unbound and trade-able. What if you simply don't have the time or the patience, or the Fleet support, to take on this kind of undertaking?

Take the Dilithium shortcut! There will be a Vendor, on Memory Alpha & Qonos, and at any other location where Crafting becomes possible, where you can spend Dilithium to buy premade Components of various rarities.

The Dilithum prices on the various Components will be calculated with the price of the end-product items they're usable for in-mind, so that buying all the Components and crafting the end-product will actually be more expensive than just going to ESD and buying it outright (assuming you're crafting Uncommon, Rare, and Very Rare items).

Throw in some other C-Store shortcuts, things like:

*Increased number of Crafting Project Slots
Random Bags of Anomalies, Materials, and Components.
Shortcut devices that half or eliminate the time-delays associated with crafting.

And PW has it's monetized Crafting Shortcuts while still allowing Fleet Crafters and Casuals to avoid Dilithium entirely if they so choose.

So in conclusion, my proposal:


Eliminates the proposed Dilithium Tax.
Preserves Fleet and Casual Crafting.
Brings crafting more in-line with Star Trek canon.
Makes Crafting a more complicated, customizable, specialization-friendly system.
Integrates the Doff System into Crafting.


What say you?

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Those are some pretty solid ideas, I like them a lot. Although it would take a significant time to rework the R&D system to that extent.

Can't really add anything more than that.

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Ah, you already made a seperate thread with all your brilliant ideas, Katie. Wonerful! I really hope you will get a developer response on this.

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I liked your idea back when you first put your thoughts together in the blog. Now, I absolutely love it. It's complicated. It makes crafting fun. It's a win for both sides. Best of all, it feels TREK.

I do hope that at least one dev reads this and brings it up at their next F2P meeting. I'm sure that someone will say that it takes too much work/effort to be worth it or that it won't bring in enough revenue to make it worthwhile (and I'm sure PW will put the kibosh on the idea right away). If they're willing to accept a compromise that the PLAYERS are putting forth, then this will be another reason for me to want to stay.

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Looks good to me. :)

I'd play STO with this crafting system (or something similar).

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Could you elaborate on your "Crafting Skill Tree"?

It hasn't made sense to me, as I have stated in other threads, that when you craft 18 Large Hypos, then you know how to make Deflectors, Phaser Arrays or Impulse Engines.

How would you assemble a skill tree to show a logical progression of skills?

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Katic, I'm fully on-board with your idea (with a small exception, below). I like the idea of crafting components then the item we want. I like the idea the crafting takes time.

Alternate/suggestion: You mention one could have X crafting projects going simultaneously, increasing with character rank. I'd much rather see this increase with a sort of Crafting Commendation Rank/Accolade, similar to crafting levels now, but closer to the DOff system. You get CXP for each item crafted, and even some of the DOff missions (the ones that give schematics, for example) could award Crafting XP. This also determines what items you unlock, etc. Thoughts?

...The Dilithum prices on the various Components will be calculated with the price of the end-product items they're usable for in-mind, so that buying all the Components and crafting the end-product will actually be more expensive than just going to ESD and buying it outright...I think the total in Dilithium spent (even at a vendor) should be (at least slightly) less than buying the item outright. The player is still investing time to produce the item, and presumably to have ranked in Crafting. At worse it should be a wash, the components costing the same as the item. Even if the "Dil Shotrcut Crafting" method is cheaper, I still think Cryptic would earn "money" this way.

Anyway, I would still much prefer your system as you post it, as opposed to the current Tribble (heck, even current Holodeck) build. Well done!

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Sounds good to me, especially being able to craft your own modifiers on it.

The only problem I see is if there is enough dev resources to implement this before F2P. It's a pretty radical change from what we have currently.

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You know, I was working on my own idea for revamping the crafting system, mainly by cribbing a bit off of Champions.

This idea is a hundred times better than mine, and I would totally get behind it.

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I think this is a very interesting proposal, and would take crafting in the game in a different direction.

Wondering how long it might take from the programming side to implement ( my only callout), since it seems like the Dil tax is there to start the money clock running RIGHT NOW, vs. your idea which would pay off in the long term down the road for both the player base and the ownership. :o

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Does your method allow for me to go "I want a MK XII Very Rare Phaser Dual Beam bank and I want it DMG x2 and ACC?" So complete customization of the end item I want to craft. I wasnt clear on whether it did that or not.

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Could you elaborate on your "Crafting Skill Tree"?

Gladly, as I imagine it, an engineer/scientist with the knowledge and skill to manufacture Phasers doesn't necessarily know how to field strip a Disruptor, much less a Polaron Cannon, so I imagine different weapons types will be specialties which must be trained in themselves, the same for things like Science Kits, Melee Weapons (which I envision utilizing only materials, no Anomalies), and ship Weaponry (of different types) as well as Ship gear like Deflectors and Shields.

I'm not sure if people should be able to master all the various kinds of Crafting, or if some degree of Specialization should bar you from mastering other kinds (being especially well adept at Crafting Phasers may prevent you from crafting anything better than common Antiproton, for example). that would have to borne out by testing.

Katic, I'm fully on-board with your idea (with a small exception, below). I like the idea of crafting components then the item we want. I like the idea the crafting takes time.

Alternate/suggestion: You mention one could have X crafting projects going simultaneously, increasing with character rank. I'd much rather see this increase with a sort of Crafting Commendation Rank/Accolade, similar to crafting levels now, but closer to the DOff system. You get CXP for each item crafted, and even some of the DOff missions (the ones that give schematics, for example) could award Crafting XP. This also determines what items you unlock, etc. Thoughts?

I think the total in Dilithium spent (even at a vendor) should be (at least slightly) less than buying the item outright. The player is still investing time to produce the item, and presumably to have ranked in Crafting.

The reason I thought a limit to Crafting Projects was a good idea was dual purpose;

A) It will slow down crafting progression, rewarding people to craft as they level, rather than collect and collect and collect, and then craft like a fiend at the cap.

B) We've heard the Devs talk all the time about how much data is stored per character being immense, more than the average for an MMORPG, so by limiting the number of projects, it would make the Crafting system less of a bear server-side, making it more attractive for the Devs to pick up this idea.

As to the reason for specifying that the Dilithum shortcut for crafting will be more expensive than the Dilithium Vendors, my thinking was that it would discourage people from grinding up a crap-ton of Dilithium and just buying all the crafting Components they need and leveling Crafting that way, by being more expensive, it encourages people to just by the gear from Dilithium Vendors rather than trying to game the Crafting system and getting the gear + Crafting ranks.

Does your method allow for me to go "I want a MK XII Very Rare Phaser Dual Beam bank and I want it DMG x2 and ACC?" So complete customization of the end item I want to craft. I wasnt clear on whether it did that or not.

I would prefer it be a chance system, adding additional Warheads to your Torpedo Crafting might give you a [Dmg] mod, but it might not, that way, people will experiment and do more crafting than if everything was a guaranteed success. It encourages time spent in-game because you're not likely to get what you want on the first try, and it throws a bone to PW because impatient people will be heading down the Dilithium railroad to the C-Store in order to try and try and try for those precious [DmgX3] Weapons.

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I would prefer it be a chance system, adding additional Warheads to your Torpedo Crafting might give you a [Dmg] mod, but it might not, that way, people will experiment and do more crafting than if everything was a guaranteed success. It encourages time spent in-game because you're not likely to get what you want on the first try, and it throws a bone to PW because impatient people will be heading down the Dilithium railroad to the C-Store in order to try and try and try for those precious [DmgX3] Weapons.

Hmmm not sure I like that aspect. When I go to build something I want to be built like I want it. If i added more warhead and chambers and ended up with ACC x3 then I would be upset. It actually would turn me off crafting. I would much rather pay for a little bit less good items.

Other than that I like all your ideas.

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Hmmm not sure I like that aspect. When I go to build something I want to be built like I want it. If i added more warhead and chambers and ended up with ACC x3 then I would be upset. It actually would turn me off crafting. I would much rather pay for a little bit less good items.

Other than that I like all your ideas.

Well, one of the biggest complaints from the people who are big MMO vets is that STO Crafting has no failure chance, at all.

This way, even if you don't get what you want, you can still sell the gear you do get, instead of the Anomalies and Materials going to complete waste from a total failure. Plus, who's to say that certain unexpected combinations wouldn't yield special Gear? Perhaps anti-Borg Modifiers?

Having the system not-completely-transparant allows for recipe experimentation and a players to share tips and recipes not codified in the Schematics.

EDIT: And what if the special (hidden, non-Schematic) modifiers differed from Mark to Mark? Say, Mk I - Mk IV, Feds get anti-KDF Bonuses and Disruptor Resistances, Mk V - Mk VII get anti-Romulan Bonuses and Plasma Resistances.. You get the idea.

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Very good sum up and ideas Katic :cool:

I 'd love to see your ideas implemented.

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I have learned to admently hate chances of success and failure in F2P gaming, and this is why:

A another F2P game came to mind about this rD crafting implementation.

This other F2P game uses a percentage chance of success in order to enhance your gears. Higher level gears require more expensive materials, along with a lowering percentage chance of success.

Basically, for a top tiered piece of gear, you have like a 15% chance to successfully upgrade your gear +1.

So you have an 85% chance to fail.
In that 85% failure chance, there is a 35% chance that your gear will drop a +1 if it had a plus at all, AND a 25% chance your gear is simply destroyed.

But don't worry about losing your gears!! Cause the game store sells 3 different things in the Game Store to help you!!
One object "A",increases your chance of success by 25%!!! (btw, it's a percentage of the Percentage, so actually you get 18.5% success chance...) The object is "used" regardless of success.
Object "B" eliminates the chance your gear gets degraded a +1. The object is "used" regardless of success.
Object "C" eliminates the destruction risk. The object is "used" regardless of success.

Objects "A, B, and C" each cost $5 for a stack of 10 each.
So $15 dollars to have an 18.5% success, no degradation and no breaking.
So your left with the statistic of needing 6 of each object to upgrade you gear +1.
To get to +3 you need 18 of each object. So that's 1 more purchase of each object stack, or $30 total and 2 of each object left over.
At +4 to +6, your base chance to succeed is lowered to 12% (15% with object "A"!).
So you need 7 objects to increase to +4, or 21 to increase to +6. You had 2 left over so you needed 19 more, so 2 more stacks were purchased, for another $30 or $60 total and 1 of each object left over.
At +7 to +9 your base chance to succeed dropped to 8% (10% when you use object "A"!)... etc.

In all you spent $105 for the statistical probablility to get a max plussed high tiered gear... BUT it is a randomly generate chance to begin with, so the possiblity still remains that you spent your $105 and still completely failed to get even a +1....
Oh ya, that was just 1 piece of gear out of 6 you use... ($630 total for the statistical probabilty for all 6 gears, with the chance to completely fail to produce a single +1 still remaining...)
If you wanna PvP at high level in this other F2P game, then YOU HAVE to max out your gear, because someone else already has, and so has his team of Fat Wallets....
Oh ya, i forgot the expensive in-game materials your using at each and every ATTEMPT also.
So you have to be rich in-game too...

PWI (Perfect World International) follows an extremely similar model to the one above...

This is why I like STO's current 100% success rate.

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Yea I dont like the failure risk. If you want it random then it should be 25% chance of no additional traits, 25% chance of +1, 25% of +2 and a 25% chance of +3 but all this hunting for stuff and dilithium cost to have all that disappear because of a failure would really bother me.

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Ok, here's the thing, I'm not putting in a failure risk as it works in other games (you fail all the Mats are wasted and you don't get an item).

No matter what you do, so long as you follow the schematic, you will get the item the schematic describes.

The "failure risk" only applies to the extra chance to change the modifiers of the object, and that only applies if you add extra (above the called-for) Components of a type that have a chance to change the modifiers of the item.

No matter what, in my vision of Crafting, you will get a usable, sell-able, trade-able item from crafting, even if it doesn't have the modifiers you tried to give it.

Example: You want a (Rare) Quantum Torpedo Launcher Mk XI [Dmg]X2.

The Schematic for the (Rare) Quantum Torpedo Launcher at Mk XI has the [Acc] & [CritH] Modifiers.

No matter what, you have to meet the basic recipe of the Schematic, which calls for five Quantum Warheads, eleven Torpedo Casings, five Guidance Systems, eleven Warp Sustainer Coils, and five Target Track Computers.

if that's all you put in, all you'll get is a (Rare) Quantum Torpedo Launcher Mk XI [Acc] [CritH].

But, if you add Quantum Warheads, each added Quantum Warhead gives you a a 30% chance of changing one of the modifiers to a [Dmg] modifier. This chance maxes out at 99% after six extra Quantum Warheads. If one of the Modifiers does change from one of the extra Quantum Warheads, the excess Quantum Warheads beyond the number that changed the first Modifier apply to the second.

So, you start with an initial 0% chance of alternate Modifiers.

Say you put in five extra Quantum Warheads.

1 = 30%, 2 = 39%, 3 = 51%, 4 = 65%, 5 = 86%.

The random roll comes up 44. That's inside the first 3 extra Quantum Warheads. The first Modifier, [Acc] will be changed to [Dmg].

The next Modifer works off the 2 remaining extra Quantum Warheads, for a total chance of 39%.

1 = 30%, 2 = 39%.

If the second random roll comes up 39 or less, you get the (Rare) Quantum Torpedo Launcher Mk XI [Dmg]X2 you wanted, if it comes up 40 or above, you get a (Rare) Quantum Torpedo Launcher Mk XI [Dmg] [CritH].

But no matter what, you get a (Rare) Quantum Torpedo Launcher Mk XI with two Modifiers.

Now, all this can be done without the involvement of Dilithium.

The Dilithium Component shop is an option for those who are too impatient to hunt down the various Anomalies and Materials to craft. It gives the impatient player, or the player who would rather spend their money rather than time, a way to shortcut past the Anomaly and Material grind. Or, those who don't have all the Components, but most o them, can buy the Components they lack.

Players who only get the basic Schematic requirements, can also use the Dilithium store to buy the extra Components to enhance their chances of getting the Modifiers.

It allows casual crafting, allows people to try and get the specific Modifiers they want, and still has plenty of optional detours to the C-Store Point - Dilithum Economy.

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I'm sorry.
Your ideas have been deemed too good and too sane for appearance on this forum.


I jest.

In any case, if the developers ask for ideas on what they can REALLY do to improve crafting; somebody please point them here STAT!

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Love the idea. Not as complex as EVE, but still good

The devs, unfortunately, will not implement. I think they are just trying to destroy the IP

You, and so many others, have suggested numerous changes and modifications to the ship system, skill system, crafting system and everything else. It is obvious that the devs put no thought into the game, and will not put in the effort to make the game great.

When the game dies, someone will buy the STO licence for $100 and make a great game.

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Someone working for Cryptic has to see this and reply to this thread. Simply brilliant. I find a shred of hope here. Thanks Katic.

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This is very good input. I think taking ideas from this thread would move crafting in the right direction!

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I love the ideas in this thread. I just want to add one little thought. Why not split crafting based on officer type? I have a VA level eng, sci, and tac. I play my engineer the most and I have always wondered why he cannot craft engineering consoles that are better than the same engineering consoles my tac or sci crafts. In the same respect let a tac make better tactical consoles and sci make better science consoles. This could even be used when making kits, engines, shields, weapons or just about anything craftable where one officer would have more knowledge over the other two. I could see crafting being in higher demand and players wanting to max out crafting for each officer type. I have maxed crafting on all three and after doing so wondered why I did if everything was exactly the same. Anyway these are my thoughts on a crafting revamp.

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nice. I think I'll link this to the F2P forum since that's were the devs are paying the most attention right now.

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I love the ideas in this thread. I just want to add one little thought. Why not split crafting based on officer type? I have a VA level eng, sci, and tac. I play my engineer the most and I have always wondered why he cannot craft engineering consoles that are better than the same engineering consoles my tac or sci crafts. In the same respect let a tac make better tactical consoles and sci make better science consoles. This could even be used when making kits, engines, shields, weapons or just about anything craftable where one officer would have more knowledge over the other two. I could see crafting being in higher demand and players wanting to max out crafting for each officer type. I have maxed crafting on all three and after doing so wondered why I did if everything was exactly the same. Anyway these are my thoughts on a crafting revamp.

I honestly gave that some thought, but one of my main goals was a crafting system that preserves Fleet Crafting as much as possible. If different careers got different bonuses and specializations, it would necessitate Fleets to have a minimum of three Fleet Craftsmen, which would also increase the burden on Fleets to collect Anomalies and Materials for their Craftsmen.

Now, as I did mention before, I do think there might be room for Specialization disconnected from career, for example, one could specialize in Phased Energy manipulation, and get bonuses to Phasers and Transphasic Torpedoes, which would do one of three things:

A) Reduce the number of Anomalies and Materials (or Crafting time) they need to craft Phasers and Transphasic Torpedoes.

B) Increase the number of Anomalies and Materials (or Crafting time) they need to craft other Weaponry, or..

C) Bar them from Crafting Rare or Very Rare versions of non-Phaser, non-Transphasic Weaponry.

Personally, I'm leaning towards A, because it rewards specialization, encourages multiple Crafters per fleet while possibly reducing the amount of Anomaly and Material grinding, and rewards non-Fleeted players to cooperate to gear their ships.

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Thanks OP,now lets hope.

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I'd just like to express my sincere thanks for all the support I've gotten so far.

Not just in this thread, but in the repeated mentions and links I've seen all over the forums as you spread the word.

In these dark times of P2W and "F2P - F2BExploited", I'm heartened to see the efforts of people supporting an idea they like.

I just wish I could get a single Dev response, even if it's the exact opposite of what I want to hear like "Sorry, we want to use Crafting as a tool to pry money out of peoples hands" or "Sorry, your idea sucks, we'd never do something so idiotic"..

Anything is better than silence.

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All in my opinion but I think this would be a bad redesign. The benefits of your proposal are:

Eliminates the proposed Dilithium Tax.
- This will NOT happen, period, at all. That is there plan and you can disagree all you want but at this current time that will not be perceived as a benefit in cryptic's eyes as they want ALL top end gear to cost Dilithium. Granted the time gate of only being able to craft so many items within a time frame does remove the hundreds of purples from one person idea, it kills fleet crafting at the same time.
Preserves Fleet and Casual Crafting.
- With the amount of complexity and time that is introduced it would kill casual crafting. I'm sorry, I will not hunt down 30 different components in various amounts to build one item. This is way to complex of a system.
Brings crafting more in-line with Star Trek canon.
- I will grant you that it does at huge simulation aspects, via complexity by detail.
Makes Crafting a more complicated, customizable, specialization-friendly system.
- This is also true, but it that a good thing?
Integrates the Doff System into Crafting.
- This would also be a good thing

It also requires huge amounts of coding and database work for little added benefit. Instead I would propose this:

Remove dilitium cost from green items and eliminate the odd mark equipment.
- They may be willing to do this as green items, atleast in my eyes, are not top end gear.
Put the dilitium cost into the blueprint
- Fleet crafting is saved.
Allow customization via the rare traces, link each one to a bonus for each item, or link them to Doff assignments at Memory Alpha.
- Boom, customize!

[Archived Post]

All in my opinion but I think this would be a bad redesign. The benefits of your proposal are:

Eliminates the proposed Dilithium Tax.
- This will NOT happen, period, at all. That is there plan and you can disagree all you want but at this current time that will not be perceived as a benefit in cryptic's eyes as they want ALL top end gear to cost Dilithium. Granted the time gate of only being able to craft so many items within a time frame does remove the hundreds of purples from one person idea, it kills fleet crafting at the same time.

No, it doesn't, because it's Dilithium being required to craft which is killing Fleet Crafting on Tribble as Dilithium is non-trade-able between Fleet-mates, it forces the Fleet Crafter to spend three or four days gathering Dilithium for one item. And what's more, the Dilithium Componants Vendor and the C-Store items I've proposed gives PWEs Bean-Counters their path to purchases, It's just not as onerous on Fleets, while still giving impatient (but moneyed) players their cash-shortcut.

And quite frankly, I prefer to be optimistic about this game, the defeatest attitude you illustrate above (This will NOT happen, period, at all. That is there plan and you can disagree all you want but at this current time that will not be perceived as a benefit in cryptic's eyes as they want ALL top end gear to cost Dilithium.) is too pessimistic for me.

Preserves Fleet and Casual Crafting.
- With the amount of complexity and time that is introduced it would kill casual crafting. I'm sorry, I will not hunt down 30 different components in various amounts to build one item. This is way to complex of a system.

Hardly, because the timers keep going after you've left, and even when you're offline, this system is just as Casual-friendly as the Doff System, which was designed with casual play in mind.

Brings crafting more in-line with Star Trek canon.
- I will grant you that it does at huge simulation aspects, via complexity by detail.
Makes Crafting a more complicated, customizable, specialization-friendly system.
- This is also true, but it that a good thing?

Considering one of the main complaints against Crafting (from people with more MMO experience than myself) as it is on Holodeck and Tribble is that it's too simple, yes.

Integrates the Doff System into Crafting.
- This would also be a good thing

It also requires huge amounts of coding and database work for little added benefit.

Every system revamp does, and they're already in the process of doing it. And again, I'm an optimist, not a defeatist.

Instead I would propose this:

Remove dilitium cost from green items and eliminate the odd mark equipment.
- They may be willing to do this as green items, atleast in my eyes, are not top end gear.

Again, Dilithium being included (to be clear: AT ALL) kills Fleet Crafting deader than Gene Roddenberry himself.

Put the dilitium cost into the blueprint
- Fleet crafting is saved.

Again, if Dilithium is included AT ALL it kills Fleet Crafting. If Dilithium is involved in Crafting as a requisite material, then Fleets Crafters simply will not craft it. And as I said, one of my major goals is to preserve Fleet Crafting, and unless they're the most casual, don't care about anything at all Fleet in the game, they're not going to settle for green gear.

Think about it, Dilithium is gated at 8K per day, any item at the Admiral/General ranks currently has it priced at at least 6K per item, and that's for the Mk X Uncommons, if you want anything better (which everyone does), it requires more than one days Refinement, which means the Fleet Crafter has to run eight or nine Daily missions for at least two days, if not three or four to get one worthwhile item for one fleet-mate, now extrapolate that for equipping a fleet of just ten people. With a minimum of six weapons per ship (assuming they're all at the cap), plus Deflectors, Impulse Engines, and Shields, then Consoles, Ground Weapons for the whole away team, Ground Shields, personal Armors, Kits..

How long does it take to equip them? A year? A year and a half? And how many people will be joining the fleets after F2P? Do you think one, two, or even ten or twenty Fleet Crafters can possibly supply all the demands of the F2P tidal wave?

If Dilithium is involved in Crafting, it should not be a part of the recipes themselves, schematic or not. It should be a shortcut for people to gather the Materials, which can then either be used, or given to the Fleet Crafter.

The point of Dilithium is obviously (admitted by all but the Devs) a way to encourage people to buy C-Points to avoid having to grind Dilithum themselves, so, putting the Dilithu Component Vendor and the C-Store items like random Grab-Bags of Crafting Materials, timer shortcuts, and extra Crafting project Slots, gives Cryptic their cash-tie-in while still letting Fleet Crafters have a life other than doing Dailies for Crafting.

Allow customization via the rare traces, link each one to a bonus for each item, or link them to Doff assignments at Memory Alpha.
- Boom, customize

But no failure chance, which has been another long-time complaint of people with much more MMO experience than myself.

!

My responses in red.

[Archived Post]

Eliminates the proposed Dilithium Tax.
- This will NOT happen, period, at all. That is there plan and you can disagree all you want but at this current time that will not be perceived as a benefit in cryptic's eyes as they want ALL top end gear to cost Dilithium. Granted the time gate of only being able to craft so many items within a time frame does remove the hundreds of purples from one person idea, it kills fleet crafting at the same time.

Preserves Fleet and Casual Crafting.
- With the amount of complexity and time that is introduced it would kill casual crafting. I'm sorry, I will not hunt down 30 different components in various amounts to build one item. This is way to complex of a system.

!

My comments to these two points:

- I also belive that Cryptic will listen and stay optimistic about this topic. It is a test server and the test frankly speaking has failed majorly. Hence, this issue needs to be addressed if they do not want to fully remove crafting. No crafting system should be a system to only create your own gear. If it is it is also a useless system.

- A complex crafting system draws in a whole set of players who enjoy this aspect of the game. In other games I spend days harvesting resources and crafting. It is a very valid end game content if done right.

[Archived Post]

Just a few things, if the Dilithium cost is inclued in the blue print, and the blue print is tradeable, than the crafter does not have to be the only one earing it, the entire fleet can. That does this mean you cannot just mass produce purples for everyone in the game with little to no time investment, but that is the problem they are trying to fix. Yes, making a ton of cheap n easy purple items is a problem.

Also, while people feel the system is too simple and easy that is not fixed with your system. That is what I was refering too with the complexity by detail comment. The base system remains, scan stuff with no risk or excitement, combine it into stuff at memory alpha, to combine it into more stuff with some specialization chance. That is the system we have now, you just added a few more 'combine' steps and random rolls.

Next, just one quote that I wish to address:

"the Dilithium Componants Vendor and the C-Store items I've proposed gives PWEs Bean-Counters their path to purchases"

While this is part of why Dilithium is required for good gear it is not the point you should be arguing.

"What we do intend for Dilithium is to enable captains to go beyond the casual and into the hardcore acquisition of items. If you want to collect extra starships, or want high end gear for competitive play, or otherwise are going beyond what the average player requires, then you'll probably find yourself looking for content that rewards you with Dilithium." -Dev Blog 11

High End Gear. Purples. If you want purples, you need Dilithium. If you want to argue with that point go ahead, use the arguement that your system places a limit on the number of purple items any one person can make in a given time frame just like the 'refine only 8k Dilithium limit' does. Then, go on to suggest that maybe your daily refine limit should go down for each crafting 'job' you are doing, which would keep this system from breaking the overall end game item aquisition design, but instead it offers an alterantive.

Honestly, I'm just trying to give you constructive feedback, and trying to help you refine the idea. I think your heart is in the right place, and I think you do have some good ideas, I just think it needs a bit more.

[Archived Post]

Just a few things, if the Dilithium cost is inclued in the blue print, and the blue print is tradeable, than the crafter does not have to be the only one earing it, the entire fleet can. That does this mean you cannot just mass produce purples for everyone in the game with little to no time investment, but that is the problem they are trying to fix. Yes, making a ton of cheap n easy purple items is a problem.

Well, let me point out a few things, in the current system, there are a grand total of 28 Crafting Materials, 18 Anomaly types, 10 Rare Particle Traces.

Dilithum adds one time-gated component earn-able by anyone who plays. It's easy to find, just look under your available missions for a (Daily) descriptor. But in doing so, it decides for you what you're going to spend time doing in-game.

Under my system, the number of required "things" to craft would grow into quite easily the triple digits. Between Anomalies and Materials.. Then the number of Components they are assembled into..

Well, just look at this list (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Category:Materials) of Materials mentioned in Star Trek on Memory Alpha, there are a grand total of 290 of them, even assuming half of them are inappropriate to use (a grossly unrealistic estimate, more than 90% are), that's 145 new Crafting Materials.

Then, throw in this page (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Category:Energy) of mentioned Energy types (151 separate entries), this page (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Category:Radiation) of mentioned Radiations (52 separate entries), and imagine how many Anomalies could be gleaned from them if even half (101) are useful? There are 39 pages (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Category:Subspace_phenomena) of Subspace Phenomena alone.

Now, think about the number of different Components we've heard mentioned in Star Trek.

On this page (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Category:Subspace), there are more than 40 just having to do with Subspace. There are over 30 on this page (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Category:Warp), just associated with Warp Engines. How about 194 pages (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Category:Computer_technology) of Computer Technology? 237 pages (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Category:Weapons) dedicated to Weapons technology? 133 pages (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Category:Communications_technology) of Communications technology?

Even if only half of it is appropriate for use as Components, we're talking about hundreds of Components, which, in turn, need hundreds of Anomalies and Materials.

Now it may seem almost too complex at this point, but remember, the Devs will be whittling the numbers down, I'm simply pointing out that the potential for complexity is exponentially greater than our current system.

Now lets imagine how long it will take, even a Fleet, to gather the correct Anomalies and the correct Materials to make the correct Components to get the gear they want. Even with it all Trade-able, even with Doff missions to gather it, we're talking about a true hunt, as opposed to just cycling through specific exploration Sectors.

Lets say the entire fleet uses Phasers and Quantum Torpedoes, by limiting what kinds of Weapons they need, they will limit the kinds of Anomalies, Materials, and Components they need. But even then, it will be a huge undertaking to gather the materials to equip an entire fleet. Then think about the more realistic scenario where fleet-mates use the entire variety of Weapons present.

Throw in that the Anomalies and Materials will utilize all the different rarities (not just Common and Rare), with the difference in drop rates and Doff Assignment viability, and top-level gear is effectively choked off without significant effort and time.

Now, here's the part that addresses the High-End Purple Gear "problem" (I'm the Fleet crafter for the House of Citak, and we're decked out in Blues, it's too much trouble to collect enough to make Purple everything for everyone), so pay attention:

If you think about the fact that low-level, low-end gear will be easy to Craft, requiring fewer Components, made using more common varieties of Anomalies and Materials, we end up, if a Fleet crafts all it's gear, with something approaching a Pyramid.

At low levels, almost any kind of gear is attainable through Crafting, especially so if it's Uncommon or worse. As the Mk and rarity of gear increases, so does the rarity and number of Anomalies and Materials, until at the cap, Mk XII Purple Gear becomes something an entire Fleet may only craft one or two sets of in a few months, and that's assuming a Fleet of hundreds, all of whom operate with discipline to gather as many Anomalies and Materials as possible, with three or four Fleet Craftsmen.

Now imagine the Inventory storage necessary to build up the stock of Anomalies and Materials (under my system) to be able to craft anything at will, and we realize that while Casuals, who know exactly what gear they want, will be able to (with some planning and forethought) hunt down the specific Anomalies and Materials to craft the gear they want, while no single person could game the system and be a one-person "any-gear, anytime" manufacturer.

Preserves Casual Crafting, preserves (indeed encourages) Fleet Crafting.

Also, while people feel the system is too simple and easy that is not fixed with your system. That is what I was refering too with the complexity by detail comment. The base system remains, scan stuff with no risk or excitement, combine it into stuff at memory alpha, to combine it into more stuff with some specialization chance. That is the system we have now, you just added a few more 'combine' steps and random rolls.

So the only way, if I'm interpreting you correctly, to add complexity to crafting is to add, what, another mini-game?

Complexity is the opposite of simplicity, and I don't see how having an extremely complex system of differing recipes using different Anomalies and differing Materials and having to craft multiple different Components just to get one usable piece of gear is simple, considering the large number of of combinations of Anomalies, Materials, and Components possible under my system.

Next, just one quote that I wish to address:

"the Dilithium Componants Vendor and the C-Store items I've proposed gives PWEs Bean-Counters their path to purchases"

While this is part of why Dilithium is required for good gear it is not the point you should be arguing.

"What we do intend for Dilithium is to enable captains to go beyond the casual and into the hardcore acquisition of items. If you want to collect extra starships, or want high end gear for competitive play, or otherwise are going beyond what the average player requires, then you'll probably find yourself looking for content that rewards you with Dilithium." -Dev Blog 11

Here's the thing, I don't take the EEPH at his word. If they wanted to add time, they could have added complexity, or timers, the only logical reason they used Dilithium is because it encourages the C-Point/Dilithium exchange, and the contribution of real-world money.

They won't openly come out and say that, but actions speak louder than words.

The time I choose to spend in-game is just that, my time and my choice, gating Crafting with Dilithium as a necessary component forces me or my Fleet-mates to do Daily repeatables or PvP, and even then, we can only amass oh-so-much because of the Refinement Cap, and even if they were to take your suggestion, and make Dilithium a component of the Schematic (though it doesn't make sense to have to craft the Schematic in the first place, BTW), that would mean everyone in the Fleet who wants to contribute would have to have some Crafting skill, which then begs the question, if everyone in the Fleet can Craft, why have a Fleet Craftsman?

I'm fine with adding time, but adding it in such a way that it decides what I'll be doing in game for me is unacceptable.

So I'm going to make this as clear as I can:

There are ways other than Dilithium to make high-end Gear hard to acquire, and near-impossible to mass-produce, any Crafting system or suggestions anybody makes that make Dilithium a necessary (no way around it) component of crafting is an affront to my intelligence.

Oh, and if someone does want to be a one-man Crafting Conglomerate? They'll have to buy (C-Store) a great deal of Inventory and Bank space to do so. Of course, I doubt PWE/Cryptic will have much of a problem with that in that case, as it would only be only an almost-insignificant few who would do that, at massive profit to PWE/Cryptic, and even then, that person would be unable to profit (out of game) by doing so.

[Archived Post]

to make crafting more challanging but also fun, why not start with a system for questing for new items? When doing quests you learn blue prints, which unlocks craftable items. That would be a nice add. It is a bit similar to the delta flyer mission, but missions could be more challanging.

An idea is to use spy missions in the DOFF module, which earns you item unlocks. That would be cool. It would be challanging AND appealing.

[Archived Post]

I think the DOFF system has almost all the things we would need for a good Crafting system. In fact, it already has a Crafting subsystem in it, you can craft personal shields, various turret devices and so on.

My take on it here: forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=239250#19

I think the part missing from the DOFF system is that the commodities used do not affect the success chances.

[Archived Post]

Very good ideas Katic.

However, I think that the real problem with using Dilithium for crafting is that Dilithium is directly bound to Cryptic Points, but isn't directly tradeable between players, which invalidates the concepts of Fleet Crafting and negates the very idea of people helping one another produce gear.

Therefore, if there was another currency that was tradeable, usable in crafting-only and still tied to either Cryptic Points or Dilithium, things could be smoother and beneficial to both Cryptic and the community.

Cryptic would have the control and predictability they want over the CP balance and the community could have crafting almost like it used to be before F2P.

Clearly Cryptic's goal in attaching Dilithium into crafting isn't merely to slow crafting down, but also to modify crafting into an activity that removes CP's from the overall CP pool the entire playerbase has so that someone will eventually have to buy CP's.

This is my opinion of course, but I'm afraid that any plan to change crafting, has to include this component in it, or be rejected by PWE / Cryptic.

[Archived Post]

I am wondering when a cryptic member will reply to this post - at least to have read it :(

After the recent update, it seams to be their idea to resolve the problem with tradable dilithium by adding craftable basic elements out of it which would be tradable then.

But all the other ideas - I hope they will considere them.
I have read a lot from frustrated players about the speed changes are implemented. I am happy that after the take over the game is not dying. I think they really try to improve the game for us. I have no idea how much manpower is needed to do all this stuff we players demand. But adding the DOFF is definitly a step into the right direction and I am hoping, crafting will soon follow!

Cheers!

[Archived Post]

Now that the changes have gone live, does anybody have any further comments?

I'm really interested in the Non-Tribblers reactions to the changes they've made, and my suggestions for how Crafting should be done.

[Archived Post]

We have for weeks given Cryptic good solutions on Tribble, up to and including burn alive the idiot responsible for the dilithium tax. They flat out admitted in a dev post that they added the dilithium tax to make money.

And now they have killed crafting and now will make no money off of crafting, and i say GOOD, they deserve the financial punishment for punishing crafters. That said, this will just force people to buy cryptic points in order to then turn around and buy dilithium to buy good gear, which is obviously their aim and goal. Why fix something you want broken?

It just really sucks that of all the ways to nickle and dime everyone, which is the free to play model, they have to target a very specific group of players to screw over. Crafters have been ignored and screwed over since day one, and yet Cryptic cannot seem to get out of the "screw the crafters over" mentality, even now.

[Archived Post]

This is the most pimp centered grinding concept I have ever seen. I would have no problem crafting under this guise, even if it would be more complicated.

PIMP.

[Archived Post]

This is the most pimp centered grinding concept I have ever seen. I would have no problem crafting under this guise, even if it would be more complicated.

PIMP.

Um.. Thanks..? I think?

[Archived Post]

I've posted a more measured thread about the death of crafting - trying to canvas opinion and not rant - but honestly, no matter how you think about this - what we were given yesterday is a disgrace.

Not just because crafting has been made more difficult - we understand that as a development - but really adding currency into crafting kind of defeats the object. But hey, we love the game so we press on, we'll take the addition, but wait - what's this - 15ks worth of Dilithium for Unreplicatable Monkey Juice (or whatever its bloody called) to make a purple is a touch extreme, don't you think?

We would feel less annoyed if the costs were in any way reasonable - for example - if the refining limit is 8k a day then why not reasonably make it possible to craft a ships worth of kit, give or take - with your traces etc within that limit. (once you've purchased your unreplicatable thingys). But really - 2 days refining for one purple beam, really?

But more than that (and that's bad) my main gripe here is that at no point during the 'development & testing' have people (paying customers) been listened to. So in fact - it's less' development & testing' and more 'doing it & leaving it in'!!! Or am I wrong?

Hey Cryptic - press on regardless with what your customers are telling you - hope that works out for you.

R :rolleyes:

[Archived Post]

More than likely the goal is to charge obscene amounts of mone... er, dilithium for crafting now, so they can come back later on and reduce it out of "good will and compromise" under the guise of "listening to our customers/player base" so that we will then say "awe, how precious, they met us half way" when in reality, this was the understanding from the beginning.

In business negotiations, in government, in buying a house or car: one party shoots high, the other shoots low, then both come to the middle. But at the end of the day, the outcome is still the same: you pay.

I am willing to bet c-points by the end of the month Cryptic will decide "based on careful review of feedback" that the prices might be too high" and will reduce the dilithium costs. The players will claim a faux victory and thank Cryptic for "being reasonable". By the end of the ordeal, the player base will still be satisfied at having to pay a smaller dilithium tax and Cryptic will still have their tax.

but Crafting will still be dead.

[Archived Post]

Katic, I approve. I approve so much, in fact, that I am adding the URL for this thread to my signature.

bravo.

[Archived Post]

I like these ideas.

I've been asking for the ship to be more useful, I believe this idea could gel with doing things on your ship.

For example.

Maybe the Doff system could give you access to materials needed to research a new schmatics
(this could also open up many more none combat missions in order to get certain unique schematics)

Maybe researching the schematic on Memory Alpha for it to be added to your ship database (recipe book) then having to go to engineering or a science lad on your ship to manufacture the item the schematic makes.

I truely believe the majority of things you should be doing on your ship, rather than going back to a Starbase. I hope you don't mind that I have expanded slightly on your idea with my own tweak.

I'm with you on the dilithum tax, this completely stops manufacturing items for the fleet.

[Archived Post]

I hope you don't mind that I have expanded slightly on your idea with my own tweak.

I don't mind in the slightest.

However, I would say that while the component Crafting Process could and certainly should be possible shipboard, i think, to preserve the "Trek" aspect of the system (as one of my goals is to bring things more in line with canon) assembly (the final Crafting) should be done in a shipyard, or at a Station with the proper Facilities, at least for ship-gear.

I can easily imagine a Starfleet Engineer assembling a new tool kit, or replicating pieces of Body Armor and fitting them together, but assembling a new Impulse Engine in a Cargo Bay? Or completely integrating a new Shield System?

I think Mats should be gathered everywhere, Components should be assembled aboard ship, But final Crafting for ship-gear should be reserved for Starbases and Fleet-yards.

HEY!

There's an idea!! If Cryptic wants to make Fleets important, they could introduce Fleet-Yards, special Fleet-only Crafting facilities with reduced material costs or shorter Crafting Timers!! :eek:

I may have to make a new thread to fill out the details on that idea..

Thank you Angel, you've inspired me, in a roundabout sort of way..

[Archived Post]

To steal a trio of ideas from older, wiser games of yore:

1) Make finished products require several pieces. Instead of just "schematic" + "anomalies" you would have actual materials (more akin to Commodities, easily bought or looted) added to the Schematic to make the Foundation of the item. Next you would combine the anomaly data and crafted components based on what bonuses you wanted your finished item to have.

"Eh?" Alright, let's say you want to make a new beam array. You buy the Schematic with Energy Credits (easily obtained) and then add your purchase/traded/looted Materials. Now you have your Foundation item, which is identical to any Gray/Common item of the same type & level. Depending on your skill, it can have up to (pick a number) five upgrade slots. Different types of Anomaly Data grants different types of upgrades. One could give it more damage per hit, another type could give it better critical damage, and yet another could add a secondary effect, or faster rate of fire, or less power drain, or better accuracy, etc. But, there is still only five slots.

Thus the realm is now upon to customization. Yes, I could build you a phaser with maximum DPS, but will it be exceptionally accurate? No. I could make one that fires really fast, but does no more extra damage per hit. Or I could make one that is super accurate, but has no other advantages. Or just make one that has hardly any power drain. Most likely, though, I will split up my five slots to encompass a little bit of whatever suits my playstyle best.

This is important because of Captain skills. Let's say you craft all your own weapons to maximize accuracy and nothing else. Why would you do this? Because you put all your skill points into damage buffs but none into accuracy. Thus, through crafting, you can compensate for weaknesses or really push your skill based strengths even further.

2) Next we add class interdependency. What the heck does that mean? It means that depending on your own class (Tactical, Engineering, Science) you will be able to make & install certain components (remember those from above?) that other classes can not. So a Tactical office could make accuracy modules. A Science officer could make shield enhancements. And Engineering officer could make damage resistance modules. And so on.

Which means that, ideally, it is quite likely that your craft item may have to change hands a few times to get the most bonuses out of it. Ta-da: Fleet crafting is now a real thing. Yay!

3) And now for the finishing touches, read: Dilithium. Because Cyptic's gotta make their money, yo'. Building a craft item no longer costs Dilithium, nor does assembling all the parts. Instead, Dilithium is now spend to "bind" the item to your character so that they can actually use the darn thing.

But what, it gets better! The amount of Dilithium to bind and item would be directly proportionate to the power of the item in question (meaning an actual math equation based of it's final stats, relative to the player who is actually binding it). Thus tier one gear would be a lot cheaper than tier eleven, so everything stays balanced, financially speaking. Furthermore, and this is the cool part, you could also spend Dilithium to re-bind it to unbind it from yourself.

So no more selling off old gear to NPC vendors. Instead you could opt to pay some more Dilithium, remove the binding, and either put it on the Exchange or give it to one of your fleet mates. Meanwhile, Cryptic is making Dilithium sales profits going both ways (three ways, in fact, if a second player decides to equip it), so they've got no reason to complain.

So how it all works in the end:

Let's say you want your beam array to spend 2 slots on damage, 2 on accuracy and 1 on less power drain, and you're a Tactical captain. You install the accuracy upgrades yourself, because you can do that. Then you put it in the Fleet Bank and e-mail your fleet buddies to help you with this. Later that day, another player with an Engineering captain takes your materials & Anomaly Data, makes a couple of power drain enhancements, installs them, and sticks it back into the fleet bank. The next day a Science captain logs in and donates a damage enhancement module to your cause. You log back in on day three, gather up all the parts, e-mail thank yous to everyone and complete your project. You pay the Dilithium tax to bind it to your character and install it into your ship. Ta-da!

Or, if you're into for-profit crafting, well you're back in business now, because someone is going to need those modules that you can make than they can't. So in addition to the finished item market, there will also be a new market that exists between the crafters themselves - the module trade, which would most likely replace the current Anomaly Data trade that exists now (because, after all, that's what you use them for anyway). Meaning take the above scenario and replace "Fleet Bank" with "The Exchange," and pay energy credits to get the needed parts.