so how does pvp feel?

[Archived Post]

it feels less like a game and more like work.

the pvp community has always told cryptic that there is too much npc'ness going on around the pvp matches so what do they release? something that releases a lot more npc's onto the battlefield. and these pets are pretty stupid in what they can do. i mean really? why on earth did they think that haveing 8 tractor beams running around would be "fun"?

we were recently told that balance isnt the primary concern with pvp but how it "feels" to the players. well, this game doesnt feel like a game anymore.

who can the community talk to, to get some positive changes done around here? it seems like every step foreward that is taken 2 steps are taken backwards.

[Archived Post]

We don't like spam. We get more carriers. We don't like disables. We get more holds. The Chroniton proc isn't cleared by anything and the Phaser proc rate is too high. We get more NPCs using both of these weapons. We want transparency, some numbers, to help us give them the information they need. They want us to talk about our feelings, lol.

There are some good people out that that I thoroughly enjoy flying with and against. They are the only redeeming thing about this game at the moment.

I'm so disappointed with Cryptic's stupid ********. I just don't know what else to say and I'm tired of trying to be nice about saying it. That's how I feel.

[Archived Post]

/agree

Too much spam. Too many holds/snares/disables etc.

I actually miss how pvp was when this game first came out.

[Archived Post]

Kinda wish Cryptic would say something about this situation. Here we all are, frustrated at how the game is turning out and it feels like they don't care about us PvPers.

[Archived Post]

We don't like spam. We get more carriers. We don't like disables. We get more holds. The Chroniton proc isn't cleared by anything and the Phaser proc rate is too high. We get more NPCs using both of these weapons. We want transparency, some numbers, to help us give them the information they need. They want us to talk about our feelings, lol.

There are some good people out that that I thoroughly enjoy flying with and against. They are the only redeeming thing about this game at the moment.

I'm so disappointed with Cryptic's stupid ********. I just don't know what else to say and I'm tired of trying to be nice about saying it. That's how I feel.

i agree, the phaser proc rate with VM leaves a lot of disabled subsystems..... and only one way to clear them for 5 seconds until theyre all disabled again... what the frack...

might as well make sub nuc beam the way it used to be too, nothing says fun like not being able to do anything.

[Archived Post]

if i chug at single digit frame rate when there are 4+ carriers around, pvp feels like ****

when i have 3-8 full strength tractor beams on me from pets, pvp feels like ****.

when i am suffering from the crono proc the entire match, pvp feels like ****.

pvp feels like ****, thanks for all these damn carriers cryptic, they ruined what was fun in your game. the rest of it, the pve, is not fun, its a chore. so now sto pvp is not fun, because there is more pve then pvp, in pvp now.

[Archived Post]

/agree

Too much spam. Too many holds/snares/disables etc.

I actually miss how pvp was when this game first came out.

take your pick (this is stuff from before I quit)


Viral Matrix, Subnucleonic Beam, Feedback Pulse
Target Shield Subsystems
Pet Spam (remember the bugged carriers?)
Cannon Scatter Volley
Scramble Sensors
Pet Spam
Beam Fire at Will
Pet Spam again?

[Archived Post]

take your pick (this is stuff from before I quit)


Viral Matrix, Subnucleonic Beam, Feedback Pulse
Target Shield Subsystems
Pet Spam (remember the bugged carriers?)
Cannon Scatter Volley
Scramble Sensors
Pet Spam
Beam Fire at Will
Pet Spam again?


One of those Pet Spams was this one (http://s832.photobucket.com/albums/zz242/Ikrit122/?action=view&current=screenshot_2010-09-29-19-25-08.jpg). 3 carriers, at least 40 fighters and a handful of BoPs

And I'm sorry, Target Shield Subsystems was the worst. There was no counter to it, as EPtS didn't provide enough power to fight 3 Target Shields III at once, plus Eng Team and EPtS didn't clear it. The only counter was a shield battery for the power, but even so, the cooldown for batteries is much higher than that of Target Subsystems. Cryptic responded by making it so that you couldn't have multiple copies of the same rank and type of Target Subsystems on a target, plus I think they lowered the drain a bit.

Feedback Pulse was bad. It only affected beams, but non-escorts couldn't mount single cannons yet (they could mount turrets though). It also had 100% shield penetration and hit very hard with rank III and full aux (like a full broadside will almost kill a cruiser). Not sure if it ignored damage resistance.

Viral Matrix pretty much shut down your ship, including your shields. The only way to clear it was to have an ally give you a Sci Team. Same thing with SNB. SNB set every ability and weapon on cooldown for like a minute so the only thing you could do was fly around and manipulate power settings. Again, only cleared by Sci Team from an ally. A Sci/BoP with VM was the deadliest ship in the game.

[Archived Post]

One of those Pet Spams was this one (http://s832.photobucket.com/albums/zz242/Ikrit122/?action=view&current=screenshot_2010-09-29-19-25-08.jpg)
Viral Matrix pretty much shut down your ship, including your shields.
I'd say viral matrix was the worst. Premades may have been horrifying with target shield subsystems, but not everyone really knew about it. SNB was uncounterable hold nonsense, but at least it had a moderate cooldown.

Everyone, but EVERYONE knew about viral matrix. And they used it. Constantly. Gleefully. All three of their copies. Nonstop. Because their was no shared cooldown oh god no. It was all viruses, all the time.

Current PVP feels better than that, at least. >_>

[Archived Post]

take your pick (this is stuff from before I quit)


Viral Matrix, Subnucleonic Beam, Feedback Pulse
Target Shield Subsystems
Pet Spam (remember the bugged carriers?)
Cannon Scatter Volley
Scramble Sensors
Pet Spam
Beam Fire at Will
Pet Spam again?


Don't forget Tyken's that could shut down entire Fed Balls.

My Sci/BoP used to have a blast sapping entire enemy teams with Tyken's, stunning them with PSW, and then shredding them all with a (non-broken) CSV 1.

[Archived Post]

When I'm teamed with fleetmates, good. When I pug, a headache is coming. When I see clouds of chrono mines/torp spreads incoming, crappy. When I see the entire Fed team is running phasers and realize that half of my KDF team is also, angry. Overall I'd say I feel down, yet for some reason still hopeful that the devs can turn this around. I'd love to love this game again.


There are some good people out that that I thoroughly enjoy flying with and against. They are the only redeeming thing about this game at the moment.

Would pvpers agree that I/you/we at this point are only playing this game because of the people we like flying with/against? Because I would. The omg its star trek feel wore off quite a while ago. my 2 cents.

[Archived Post]

At this rate I'm going to see this rule for some matches:

Maximum of ONE carrier for each side.

Or we might as well just retell the Battle of Midway....IN SPACE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Archived Post]

At this rate I'm going to see this rule for some matches:

Maximum of ONE carrier for each side.

Or we might as well just retell the Battle of Midway....IN SPACE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Soon, we'll be getting to the point where we're be recreating the Battle of Coral Sea - neither side ever saw the other, and it was fought (and won) entirely via carrier based aircraft.

[Archived Post]

Soon, we'll be getting to the point where we're be recreating the Battle of Coral Sea - neither side ever saw the other, and it was fought (and won) entirely via carrier based aircraft.

LMFAO!!!!!! In some genres I would welcome this....if I was in the pilot seat of one of the fighters. But not in Star Trek. Sorry I may join in the carrier madness, but I am not trading in my Bortas'Qu

[Archived Post]

At this rate I'm going to see this rule for some matches:

Maximum of ONE carrier for each side.

Or we might as well just retell the Battle of Midway....IN SPACE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"The Yorktown? But we've killed it already! Hax, dude, hax."

[Archived Post]

What PVP are you referring too? Getting a bit bored of farmers, lack of maps, lack of gametypes, premades killing the queues and lack of general dev attention lol.

Besides that, i'm peachy :D

I only do PVP for two reasons anyway, getting the accolades done, and playing with friends. It's sure as hell not anything else lol.

[Archived Post]

Carriers in WW2 were vulnerable to attack from just about everything. They weren't tanks like in STO.

Wish they'd make them less tanky and add some range to the pets.

[Archived Post]

It's time to go, at least from pvp. It's been fun. However, as of late it hasn't been. So, I guess you won't see me much in queues anymore.

I plan to stick around for doffing but overall pvp time reduced until items already said thousand times becomes fixed. When the carriers came to fed side it felt they took FvF away from me. I

Its a game for enjoyment, when the enjoyment stops you can do two things. One, quit or two, find something else in the game too do.

See you in opvp chat, but that about it.

[Archived Post]

It would be really cool if a premade could post their 3,4, or 5 ship team in a queue for other premades and leave PuG's for PuG's, which could only be entered by solos or 2 player teams. Currently a 5 man premade cleans out a PuG unless they are lucky enough to run into another premade. For me being on a 1:15 or 15:1 match isn't fun. I much prefer a fight, not a beatdown.

[Archived Post]

take your pick (this is stuff from before I quit)


Viral Matrix, Subnucleonic Beam, Feedback Pulse
Target Shield Subsystems
Pet Spam (remember the bugged carriers?)
Cannon Scatter Volley
Scramble Sensors
Pet Spam
Beam Fire at Will
Pet Spam again?

Which Beam Fire At Will do you mean? I think the bugged one that I believe Zorena talked about first in a big thread - I think that was the point PvP was the best balanced overall. It seemed to me that bug was mostly problematic because Dual Beam Banks dealt a little more damage than intentended and Beam Arrays a lot less. It wasn't as uber as some of the later versions.

Of course, BFAW and Scramble Sensors occured around the same time, so even ignoring that, the Scramble Sensors stuff would have been annoying. But at least there wasn't the Antimatter Spread console yet, and the resistance to Scrambles that was introduced much later would have fixed that (well, maybe overnerfed). Still, I maintain that was the best of times in PvP.

[Archived Post]

Which Beam Fire At Will do you mean? I think the bugged one that I believe Zorena talked about first in a big thread - I think that was the point PvP was the best balanced overall. It seemed to me that bug was mostly problematic because Dual Beam Banks dealt a little more damage than intentended and Beam Arrays a lot less. It wasn't as uber as some of the later versions.

Of course, BFAW and Scramble Sensors occured around the same time, so even ignoring that, the Scramble Sensors stuff would have been annoying. But at least there wasn't the Antimatter Spread console yet, and the resistance to Scrambles that was introduced much later would have fixed that (well, maybe overnerfed). Still, I maintain that was the best of times in PvP.

That was about the same time I started to PvP. In fact, I remember the patch, that "fixed" FAW then, occurred within days of my first few PvP matches. Those were really good times... except when you were pugging and hit one of those 5-man FAW cruiser teams or 4 cruisers and a FAWscort, but still. It was those times that made PvP my favorite part of the game.

[Archived Post]

PvP feels broken. And the development process for PvP feels broken. Is it possible someone even considered PvP when contemplating these new fighters, not to mention a Fed carrier?

And I don't know which tooltips to trust anymore. None of them, I suspect.

[Archived Post]

Yeah, PvP is pretty lackluster now, (to be polite), I find it kind of humorous that whatever the PvP community doesn't like, the devs add more of I'd have better luck explaining to my cat how to fill her own food bowl.

Sorry Cryptic but you really sucked the fun out of a large portion of the game, unless this was your intent. I can fully see the logic in screwing pvp up bad enough that no one wants to do it, then saying that not enough people are interested in PvP therefore giving you a reason to push it off another few seasons. Sometimes the best way to get someone to leave is to make them want to leave.
After all,, we really aren't as profitable as the RP PvE community when it comes to purchasing flair.

[Archived Post]

I'm not a die-hard Pvp'er, but I'll give you my feelings on it from my times playing it.

It seems pointless. The maps in which you play in have no real-world (i.e. Universe affecting) reprecussions. 5 Klinks and 5 feds decide to square off for awhile. One side wins, one side loses and... it means squat.

There is no territorial control. There are no bonuses for victory, there are no punishments for defeat. No one has to repair their ships from their battles. A system captured does not yield any special perks for the faction that captured it and frankly there is no real incentive to fight at all beyond gloating rights.

I'd like to see a complete revamp of space combat all the way around, introducing damage that must be repaired and seeing ship size and speed factored in, but that's not Pvp specific.

Pvp in a game such as this needs a reason for being, and in all the times I've played it regardless of victory or defeat, I just come away feeling like it was a waste of time. This is coming from a person who's already at max level and doesn't really consider any dilithium gained from the instance to be worth much, so take my opinion with a gain of salt.

Perhaps with the addition of player made starbases, maybe then we'll get a sense of some reason to fight. (Like maybe defending our precious bases from destruction by the opposing side.)

In the meantime, I guess I'll just grab my phaser and fight alongside my sworn Klingon enemies against the Borg on Defera and maybe even have a drink with them on DS9. ...Yeah, the war is pretty much over.:rolleyes:

[Archived Post]

I'm not a die-hard Pvp'er, but I'll give you my feelings on it from my times playing it.

It seems pointless. The maps in which you play in have no real-world (i.e. Universe affecting) reprecussions. 5 Klinks and 5 feds decide to square off for awhile. One side wins, one side loses and... it means squat.

There is no territorial control. There are no bonuses for victory, there are no punishments for defeat. No one has to repair their ships from their battles. A system captured does not yield any special perks for the faction that captured it and frankly there is no real incentive to fight at all beyond gloating rights.

I'd like to see a complete revamp of space combat all the way around, introducing damage that must be repaired and seeing ship size and speed factored in, but that's not Pvp specific.

Pvp in a game such as this needs a reason for being, and in all the times I've played it regardless of victory or defeat, I just come away feeling like it was a waste of time. This is coming from a person who's already at max level and doesn't really consider any dilithium gained from the instance to be worth much, so take my opinion with a gain of salt.

Perhaps with the addition of player made starbases, maybe then we'll get a sense of some reason to fight. (Like maybe defending our precious bases from destruction by the opposing side.)

In the meantime, I guess I'll just grab my phaser and fight alongside my sworn Klingon enemies against the Borg on Defera and maybe even have a drink with them on DS9. ...Yeah, the war is pretty much over.:rolleyes:

great comment +1. pvp needs purpose to attract anythign but hardcore pvpers

[Archived Post]

Carriers spamming pets with tractor beam, my BoP won't see an arena match for a long time...

And please stop giving universal consoles in lock boxes, the other day i was in a pug vs a premade from a fleet rumblelblale o something like that, all the five using Graviton pulse generator, for god sake!

[Archived Post]

its become all but impossible to attack federation teams with narrow arc weapons. if you don't have 5 tractor beams at once on you, you have near indefinite chrono procs. how can they be so ignorant about pvp to unleash this horror into it?

[Archived Post]

I guess I'm in the minority here. I think there's a lot of room for improvement, but most of the stuff people tend to complain about with regard to PvP doesn't really bother me all that much--seems like a lot of the complaining is hyperbole. Spam doesn't really bother me, for instance. Could Carriers and such use some fine tuning? Sure, what couldn't? But in my relatively short time playing STO, I've always dealt with some degree of spam in PvP, so I guess I've just gotten used to it by now. In any case, I certainly wouldn't rank "spam" among my priority list of things that need attention with regard to PvP. IMO there's much more important issues at hand; spam is a nuisance at worst, and a strategy to employ or overcome at best.

My biggest concern for PvP is that there just isn't much content for it. There's no ranking system, there's no rewards system (like there is for PvE), there's no Open Zone, there's a deficiency in maps and missions, and there's just not a whole lot of incentive or content in general.

My other concern is that it seems like PvE balance takes exponentially higher precedent than PvP balance; and PvP balance suffers severely as a result. I mean, there's tons of potentially viable builds and setups to run with in PvE, and this is one of the really good aspects of STO, but this ceases to remain true for PvP due to a disregard for balance. Out of all the ships, abilities, and setups you could run with, PvPers are generally pigeonholed into a handful of ships total, specific gear compositions, and specific powers setups because there's not a whole lot that is viably effective in a PvP environment like there is in a PvE environment. I bet you'd see a lot less QQ about <insert standard menu of complaints> (reference: "spam") if you opened up more possibilities that are viable in PvP. More viable builds = more diversity = less of the same.

[Archived Post]

Like a bad carnal experience..
Its still fun but mostly its just getting your fix, messing the curtains and going off to do something else thats makes one feel less humilated.

[Archived Post]

Like a bad carnal experience..
Its still fun but mostly its just getting your fix, messing the curtains and going off to do something else thats makes one feel less humilated.

I think this is the perfect analogy.

[Archived Post]

idc about petspam, kill the source, the rest will solve itself.

[Archived Post]

idc about petspam, kill the source, the rest will solve itself.


This...carrier dead, pets dead, and then move on to the squishies.

My recon sci's TBR and PSW mess up runabout's tractor beams like no ones business. Its quiet fun making them fairly useless.

If they were player controlled, they'd be raging all the way to Sunday.

[Archived Post]

This...carrier dead, pets dead, and then move on to the squishies.

My recon sci's TBR and PSW mess up runabout's tractor beams like no ones business. Its quiet fun making them fairly useless.

If they were player controlled, they'd be raging all the way to Sunday.

There are a few counters to the Tractor Beam spam.

The issue, however, lies with the uptime of the counters vs the constant TBs and how many counters you can effectively slot without gimping yourself otherwise.

With 8 Tractor Beams popping out from Danubes, you can guarantee that you'll almost always have one on you, or that there's never one more than ~5 seconds away. Even with dual TBRs, you'll still have a gap in your protection. Sure, you can throw a Polarize Hull on to cover the gaps, but then you've now slotted 3 abilities just to counter the pet spam from one person - basically gimping yourself against other forms of attacks and lessening your ability to use Sci magic against your opponents.

Furthermore, Escorts/Cruisers can ill afford to throw on more than 1 Tractor resist, if that (Omega being the exception, but there are people that only slot 1 copy of Omega).

[Archived Post]

"awps are one shotting me, should be banned"

"flashbangs blind me, should be banned"

"kevlar and helmets make it harder to kill people, should be banned"

" smoke grenades slow down my ancient pc, should be banned"

"rapid fire sniper rifles are no fair, should be banned"

why do all pvp forums degrade to nothing but grifing about things that are part of the game? The above are 12 year old arguments that are just about the exact same complaints as this thread.

"I don't want to compensate my play for new mechanics, ban everything that annoys me or makes me die"

seriously man up! each weapon type has a very effective aoe attack that can be had at a low level tac skill. (with the possible exception of torpedos for effectiveness) carrier spam is easy to counter. I didn't have an issue with it in a StarCruiser, I certainly don't have an issue with it in a Defiant retrofit, I see no reason why it should be hard to overcome.

[Archived Post]

What PVP are you referring too? Getting a bit bored of farmers, lack of maps, lack of gametypes, premades killing the queues and lack of general dev attention lol.

Besides that, i'm peachy :D

I only do PVP for two reasons anyway, getting the accolades done, and playing with friends. It's sure as hell not anything else lol.

I've changed my mind - it's NotYetNerfed shuttles and TSI/Panda premades making normal PVP play POINTLESS unless you're also in a premade team. Good job on further removing fun from what was already a pretty botched equation.

[Archived Post]

I've changed my mind - it's NotYetNerfed shuttles and TSI/Panda premades making normal PVP play POINTLESS unless you're also in a premade team. Good job on further removing fun from what was already a pretty botched equation.

They could just introduce the same queue system as STFS. One for normal and one for premades. Gives both sides a place to excel. I myself, abandoned PvP because it started to feeling like the private domain of a certain few, and so I just moved on, hoping to find something new. Didn't much like the elitist boys clubs when I was at college. So like them even less now.

[Archived Post]

Exactly! I'm the first person to put my hand up and admit i'm not a great PVPer, but i'm unlikely to get any better if the elitist boys clubs are you fairly call them run the queues then there's little point trying lol. I'm sure we're not the only players that get turned off to PVP for this reason, it cant be helping PVP's playerbase. And if/when the numbers get to such a low point then Cryptic won't even bother anymore. Then said clubs will have nothing left to do and leave the game. Talk about a vicious cycle.

[Archived Post]

Exactly! I'm the first person to put my hand up and admit i'm not a great PVPer, but i'm unlikely to get any better if the elitist boys clubs are you fairly call them run the queues then there's little point trying lol. I'm sure we're not the only players that get turned off to PVP for this reason, it cant be helping PVP's playerbase. And if/when the numbers get to such a low point then Cryptic won't even bother anymore. Then said clubs will have nothing left to do and leave the game. Talk about a vicious cycle.

You can always join the "Sad Panda Cubs" channel and / or the fleet. The sole purpose of this fleet is to teach you PVP based on your own style of play by Sad Panda members and other experienced PVP'ers - Please dont brand us elitist boys club without looking or asking to see if help is offered by the so called "Elitists".

[Archived Post]

You can always join the "Sad Panda Cubs" channel and / or the fleet. It is there for people to learn PVP from the Sad Pandas fleet members and other experienced PVP'ers who are helping out - Dont brand us elitist boys club please without looking to see if help is offered by "Elitists"

How would that solve any of the problems?

[Archived Post]

How would that solve any of the problems?

It would help you firstly to find people to play with. Secondly, feedback would be given on what you did right and wrong. Improvements would be suggested to you. If thats not help, what is......

[Archived Post]

it certainly would make it a bit easier if there was an automated team balancer as exists in other PvP games, not that those aren't without their own problems.


the trouble is that we don't have rounds so its hard to see something like that working in the current PvP setup.

Also that relies on a specified scoring system to identify the better players and allow the server to automatically swap members depending on performance at the start of a new round.

but I think we're tapping into the mmorpg argument against PvP in general. Almost all online rpg's that have a PvP element have the same issue, premades can easily destroy pugs.

[Archived Post]

As one of the first Cubs I can tell you it's a wonderful thing the Pandas have done. I was on the verge of giving up PvP out of frustration, but two things helped keep me in it:

First, OPvP channel was full of supportive and helpful players who tried to set me straight, (though their advice was often contradictory,) and
Second, the Sad Pandas started the Cubs, invited me in, and started teaching me how to play the game.

I'm still a noob, but I can see which direction I need to go to improve now, so being pwned 8 times a match is less of a frustration and more of a learning experience. I know enough now to see what I did wrong, and if I don't see it I have someone I can ask for help.

If you're an experienced player, drop in on the channel and offer your services as a trainer, mentor, or advisor. If you're an experienced player with a less than optimal performance, drop in and ask questions. If you're a noob, drop in and learn how to learn PvP. No obligations, no 'must join' requirements, just players helping players learn to love an often overlooked aspect of the game.

[Archived Post]

It would help you firstly to find people to play with. Secondly, feedback would be given on what you did right and wrong. Improvements would be suggested to you. If thats not help, what is......

I'm talking about PVP as a whole, how does my being a better player improve the fact that your premades are ruining the queues? Dont get me wrong, I have been tempted to request to join the Panda Cups, I even made a new toon with PVP in mind, but I dont think you understand my point

[Archived Post]

I'm talking about PVP as a whole, how does my being a better player improve the fact that your premades are ruining the queues? Dont get me wrong, I have been tempted to request to join the Panda Cups, I even made a new toon with PVP in mind, but I dont think you understand my point

what is the point? Spell it out for me? Our purpose for the Cubs is to improve the general state of PVP full stop.

[Archived Post]

If you're an experienced player, drop in on the channel and offer your services as a trainer, mentor, or advisor. If you're an experienced player with a less than optimal performance, drop in and ask questions. If you're a noob, drop in and learn how to learn PvP. No obligations, no 'must join' requirements, just players helping players learn to love an often overlooked aspect of the game.

I can see where your coming from I can, and it sounds great but thats not going to solve what i stated above. Unless you intend to teach the entire PVP playerbase "The Art of the Panda" your & other premades are still going to be far too powerful in most (certainly not all) cases, so where's the attraction of being beaten down by said teams in an average 15:3 kill ratio? It's certainly not the dilithium.

Maybe i'm just raging because the last dozen or so matches i stept into, it was like this and i'm just annoyed? But surely you guys can see that making a premade - beating down the random group you face and then saying "Oh well, play better or QQ?" isn't going to help PVP AT ALL. Which is a shame because I really enjoy a fair fight were you never quite know which team will come out on top! Isn't that the point? If you can almost guarantee the winner just from looking at the other side then it surely cant be fun for either group. Haven't you considered maybe joining the queues in singles & pairs and working with whoever you get regardless of ability/allegiance?

[Archived Post]

The only thing that sucks about premade vs pug is when you have bads in your pug.

A ranking system alongside proper matchmaking would help this problem; but I don't know that there's enough PvP participation for it to work properly at the moment.

[Archived Post]

Carrier Fix maybe?

Make Carriers themselves weaker, increase their range of pet use = carriers would be operating at minimum 15km and at max 19km. increase pet controllability, decrease ship tankablity or somesuch... maybe just even removing its target subsystem blah

Carriers shouldn't equal a decent ship + decent fighters/spawn. In short they shouldnt equal two ships or even come anywhere near equalling two ships.

[Archived Post]

The Premade v PUG argument is an old one. I've been on both sides of the argument throughout the course of my progression as a player. It is even a valid argument. Premades might spoil the queues for the few players that we have in game. We might keep people from wanting to step into PvP. We might.

Of course, very few of us started our STO careers in premades. Most of us have spent many, many, many painful hours being curbstopped by, what were then, many many more dedicated Premade teams. TSI and Pandas take the brunt of the hate now because so many who have played STO as long as we and a few others, have simply left the game. There are some others out there in the queues, but we take the hate.

Some of us (PvPers in general) solved this problem by hooking up with friends, forming our own teams, and learning to work with our teammates. This results in your own premade or being invited to one, usually. Some of us continue to rage in OPVP after 2 years of taking their chances with PUGS, day after day. Some of us PUG for the challenge, and accept the occasional premade for what it is, 5 friends playing together. Some of us are new players going through the pains that the learning curve, from PvE to PvP, inflicts on players.

The playerbase is at a wierd place. First you have veterans who are in at 500+ days. Then you have new players who wanted to give a F2P STO, a try. I am thankful for our new players, they are the future of the game. There does exist, however, a huge experience gap. I believe the Sad Pandas benefit the most from this, since we have a very large number of very experienced players.

This gap is very evident when a Panda team does go into the queues (we usually don't bring a premade to the queues, but that's another discussion). There is usually 1 of 4 outcomes.

a. PUGs try bravely, but unwisely to fight us single-handed. No attempts at coordination or team support are evident.
b. Experienced PUGs try to work together and put up an interesting, and sometimes successful fight.
c. The other team warps out.
d. We meet another team from a dedicated PvP fleet and get serious. Sometimes we win, sometimes we lose.

My point is, there are 2 ways to look at the situation. You can view running up against a 5-man team as a learning experience., ie: try to coordinate with your teammates, communicate, plan strikes and heals, and make PvP friends. Or... you can give up before the match starts, since it is so obviously hopeless.

On a sidenote, showing the ability to work with a team is the biggest thing fleet/premade recruiters look for. Not your build or gear. None of us started out stomping PUGs, and we hope none of you spend your whole STO careers getting stomped by us, either.

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Most of that is true, and I can totally see where your coming from BMR, but at the end of the day if TSI/Panda/Other premades enter the qeues, it's unlikely the opposing team is going to make it interesting, and I know this as i've seen it from both sides and it's boring both ways. But said recruiters like yourselves arn't going to find your new talent if the 25% of PVPers who do talk at all will use Team chat while you facerape them for 15 kills.

I see Pandas and players from other dominant PVP fleets on their own in the queues, itr does happen and it's good to see, but not near enough to make trying to fight a premade of quality to really be worth trying unless the majority of the other team speaks lol.

I know you guys have some sort of training fleet, which looks alittle vein but if it works and improves PVP then more power to you. But you only need to look at PVP numbers to know how quiet it gets, and at the end of the day you guys will end up sat in PVPs by yourselves with nobody to share your toys with. Hell, if experienced players from TSI say on these forums that their getting bored and looking for other games, you guys only have yourselves to blame.

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when ever im in a pug and the team im with realizes its against sad pandas most of the time 1 or 2 ppl leave, and i fail to understand how fighting 4vs5 or 3vs5 is gonna teach me anything other than when 5 ships att you it looks exactly like a 1 shot

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I think people are vastly overestimating the importance of full premades. Usually it's already enough to have two competent players on a team to ensure victory over the average pug.

So I wonder what the preferred state of pvp is for those who think that premades ruin pvp. Obviously players cannot be allowed to become too competent because otherwise even only two of them on one team will significantly shift the balance in a match. Doesn't this also mean that the players who despise premades cannot allow themselves to become too good because then they would start breaking their own system by making their own side win too often?

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I think people are vastly overestimating the importance of full premades. Usually it's already enough to have two competent players on a team to ensure victory over the average pug.

So I wonder what the preferred state of pvp is for those who think that premades ruin pvp. Obviously players cannot be allowed to become too competent because otherwise even only two of them on one team will significantly shift the balance in a match. Doesn't this also mean that the players who despise premades cannot allow themselves to become too good because then they would start breaking their own system by making their own side win too often?

mind = blown

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Most of that is true, and I can totally see where your coming from BMR, but at the end of the day if TSI/Panda/Other premades enter the qeues, it's unlikely the opposing team is going to make it interesting, and I know this as i've seen it from both sides and it's boring both ways. But said recruiters like yourselves arn't going to find your new talent if the 25% of PVPers who do talk at all will use Team chat while you facerape them for 15 kills.

I see Pandas and players from other dominant PVP fleets on their own in the queues, itr does happen and it's good to see, but not near enough to make trying to fight a premade of quality to really be worth trying unless the majority of the other team speaks lol.

I know you guys have some sort of training fleet, which looks alittle vein but if it works and improves PVP then more power to you. But you only need to look at PVP numbers to know how quiet it gets, and at the end of the day you guys will end up sat in PVPs by yourselves with nobody to share your toys with. Hell, if experienced players from TSI say on these forums that their getting bored and looking for other games, you guys only have yourselves to blame.

when ever im in a pug and the team im with realizes its against sad pandas most of the time 1 or 2 ppl leave, and i fail to understand how fighting 4vs5 or 3vs5 is gonna teach me anything other than when 5 ships att you it looks exactly like a 1 shot

I also understand what you are saying. It all depends, like I said, on how you choose to look at the situation. When I used to exclusively PUG, and I ran into a premade, my goals changed. It was no longer, beat the enemy. I mainly play sci, and my goal under those circumstances was to try and break their gameplan. Subnuke alpha's, TBR the healer away, etc... If I became so annoying that they chose me as the automatic first target, then my mission was accomplished. Even if my team lost.

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You can always join the "Sad Panda Cubs" channel and / or the fleet. The sole purpose of this fleet is to teach you PVP based on your own style of play by Sad Panda members and other experienced PVP'ers - Please dont brand us elitist boys club without looking or asking to see if help is offered by the so called "Elitists".

Sorry Naz1911, I respect you for your great contribution, as well as Sad Pandas, in all fairness, have shown that they really do care greatly about PvP. Even though I have, at times, defended PUGs vehemontly, making generalisations and accusations, I think I have apologised for that. But not all think the same. There have been numerous times when I have been gangbusted myself, and then insulted along the way that "I should learn to play", or "If I don't like it I should go play PvE". Those are the persons I am referring to. The amount of abuse hurled at me in K'errat is quite sad at times.

Is there a PvP-orientated KDF fleet I might learn from?

On that note - I sincerely welcome and hope to see some premades at my opening day 2 June for the STO Frontlines. It would be such an honor to witness some of you guys do your thing. I have heard so much about it!!!

Please come.

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Sorry Naz1911, I respect you for your great contribution, as well as Sad Pandas, in all fairness, have shown that they really do care greatly about PvP. Even though I have, at times, defended PUGs vehemontly, making generalisations and accusations, I think I have apologised for that. But not all think the same. There have been numerous times when I have been gangbusted myself, and then insulted along the way that "I should learn to play", or "If I don't like it I should go play PvE". Those are the persons I am referring to. The amount of abuse hurled at me in K'errat is quite sad at times.

Is there a PvP-orientated KDF fleet I might learn from?

Thanks for the recognition. Whenever we enter ques as a premade, it isnt to face roll pugs. Usually a friend of the fleet drops by giving us intel that another premade is on. We usually ask for a premade first in opvp and then join ques in hopes of going against them if no response is received.
The amount of times we've said amongst ourselves "if its murdering people in ques, not interested in setting a team up" just goes to show that we don't have a superiority complex. If anything, we know that battering pugs has a detrimental effect to pvp as a whole.

Hell, when i pug against a premade, to spice the game up for me, i aim to kill at least one in a premade. I change my goal to suit the situation like bmr said.

Complain all you want about us in this thread. I know myself what the Pandas have done for pvp in this game. Play with the cubs. You'll see the difference. Some of these guys didnt even know what distribute shields were a week ago. Now i can safely say i'd include them in a team.

Look, rant over from me now. If you want to be face rolled by any pre/pugmade, carry on complaining in threads like this. Doing the same thing over and over again expecting to have a different outcome is bordering on insanity.

If you want to change the outcome, join us in the cubs channel, or even better, on our open vent where we actually coach 1 to 1 as well. Nowadays, there more people on our vent from other fleets than there are pandas. We must be doing something right for that to happen. If you want, use our vent to communicate with your pug mades. You might enjoy it more.

If you want fleet level help pvp wise, we'll even give you that. Pm me and i'll respond. Help is offered freely without any hidden agendas. Take it whilst its there.

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Please dont brand us elitist boys club

I would have sworn there was a young woman in the vent last time I was invited into it..............
I was going to entertain her (and others) with dirty jokes but was oddly unable to think of any at the time...
I can say that I saw no signs of elitsm attitudes and found the experience quite enjoyable.
The smack talk of the chat ingame is different, as almost everybody smack talks at one time or another during PvP.

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deja'vu .... my god i've seen this all before with TSI!

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I don't buy the argument that Premades ruin PvP. Premades have always been here and in my opinion they've only served to make me want to improve. I'm not a fan of the type that brings whatever broken thing they can find but I feel the same way about an individual who enters the queue and does the same.

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If I had 10 Cryptic points for everytime I've found a fleet team while I've been pugging that turned down a request for a proper 5v5 after the match I'd almost enough for half a respec token.

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If I had 10 Cryptic points for everytime I've found a fleet team while I've been pugging that turned down a request for a proper 5v5 after the match I'd almost enough for half a respec token.

Hee-hee +1 respec

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i am much more aggravated at how woefully terrible and hopeless my own pug team mates end up being then at the talent of a few opponents that have a common fleet handle. if i do end up against a premade i make it a point to do something to derail them, even get a kill. even if its 15 to 1 i would consider that a victory and still have fun.

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If I had 10 Cryptic points for everytime I've found a fleet team while I've been pugging that turned down a request for a proper 5v5 after the match I'd almost enough for half a respec token.

I think my biggest problem with pvp is the impossibility of setting up an even match. My friends and I just recently started pvping and our fights tend to go one of two ways: we queue up or do a private match and stomp whatever pug or premade we go up against... Then naturally Pandas hear about our premade (seriously, seems like over half the pvpers in this game are pandas now) and ask for a match. You guys send out the call in your fleet and, big surprise, assemble your A team. So we go up against your best and go like 15-2, having to deal with psw/scramble spam that we're not accustomed to dealing with. Thats not the problem, its a learning experience, you see something new to adapt to and counter and you say gg and move on. My point is that there doesn't seem to be a middle ground. No neck and neck, nail biting matches. You either stomp the clueless or get stomped by the handful of elite pvpers on the server. I don't have a problem getting annihilated repeatedly, but theres a pretty vast skill gap in pvp playerbase and its hard to convince players to keep going when the only avenue of advancement is smashing your face into the top tier repeatedly. People want that match thats even and exciting, a match where the victor is not clear until the last kill... I guess theres just not enough people pvping to make that happen.

[Archived Post]

I think my biggest problem with pvp is the impossibility of setting up an even match. My friends and I just recently started pvping and our fights tend to go one of two ways: we queue up or do a private match and stomp whatever pug or premade we go up against... Then naturally Pandas hear about our premade (seriously, seems like over half the pvpers in this game are pandas now) and ask for a match. You guys send out the call in your fleet and, big surprise, assemble your A team. So we go up against your best and go like 15-2, having to deal with psw/scramble spam that we're not accustomed to dealing with. Thats not the problem, its a learning experience, you see something new to adapt to and counter and you say gg and move on. My point is that there doesn't seem to be a middle ground. No neck and neck, nail biting matches. You either stomp the clueless or get stomped by the handful of elite pvpers on the server. I don't have a problem getting annihilated repeatedly, but theres a pretty vast skill gap in pvp playerbase and its hard to convince players to keep going when the only avenue of advancement is smashing your face into the top tier repeatedly. People want that match thats even and exciting, a match where the victor is not clear until the last kill... I guess theres just not enough people pvping to make that happen.

Good post.

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If people want an even match that they can set up themselves, go pvp in a private in-fleet match.


So mutch Wha here

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I said we've tried that too, but so far it's followed much the same formula as queuing up.

The most common reply by far when contacting fleets to set up private matches is "Sorry, not enough pvpers for a team, all we have on is a bunch of STFers that hate pvp." But when you do get a match, more often than not they show up uncoordinated or in PVE builds, leading to a quick victory. The flipside is to the scenario I outlined above... there remains the singular problem of too small a community with a learning curve that discourages most from playing. And don't spout that Panda Cubs bull at me, because every time I've seen that its a team of 4 pandas and the one clueless newbie they're coaching at the moment.

The main player base coasts through PVE content so simple that you can breeze through it in a comatose state and come out at the end wearing Vice Admiral pips. Armed with this false sense of accomplishment they queue up for pvp and get annihilated, more often than not leading them to drop out of the match immediately, thinking "Screw that!" or "They must be cheating," which is a sentiment I've received a startling amount of times.

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I said we've tried that too, but so far it's followed much the same formula as queuing up.

The most common reply by far when contacting fleets to set up private matches is "Sorry, not enough pvpers for a team, all we have on is a bunch of STFers that hate pvp." But when you do get a match, more often than not they show up uncoordinated or in PVE builds, leading to a quick victory. The flipside is to the scenario I outlined above... there remains the singular problem of too small a community with a learning curve that discourages most from playing. And don't spout that Panda Cubs bull at me, because every time I've seen that its a team of 4 pandas and the one clueless newbie they're coaching at the moment.

The main player base coasts through PVE content so simple that you can breeze through it in a comatose state and come out at the end wearing Vice Admiral pips. Armed with this false sense of accomplishment they queue up for pvp and get annihilated, more often than not leading them to drop out of the match immediately, thinking "Screw that!" or "They must be cheating," which is a sentiment I've received a startling amount of times.

This very clearly describes my own experience.

PvP should be more accessible and encouraged in the lower tiers.

Where I disagree is on the topic of the Cubs. I and many other new PvP'ers are still playing and enjoying PvP because of the Cubs. Every fleet should participate in the Cubs, or even begin their own recruiting/training fleets so that true Cub teams can roll against other, similarly skilled trainee teams.

I for one would love to see any fleet challenge a pure Cub team. If we get rolled, we learn and grow. If we roll them, they can join us int he channel to discuss what went wrong.

The idea is to get more players interested in PvP, something difficult to do with broken game mechanics and OP spam drops, but at least the Sad Pandas are trying. Please try to help, if not in the Cubs, then in your own fleet's training efforts. More players can equal more balanced play, but we need many more players.

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No, I acknowledge that they are performing a laudable service for the pvp community, what I mean to say is that I haven't seen it produce any viable results in the form of intermediately skilled premades yet. I generally see a team of 4 pandas coaching one cub, so if you roll up against this team, your best hope for victory is to farm their newbie for kills, which is a pretty harsh sentence for their protegee.

Regardless, at least we agree on the lack of accessibility.

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Sry I meant setting them up within one own's fleet as opposed to outside that fleet. Then you have a completly sterile environment within your control