Cryptic, a journey from Korea to China.

[lordxenite]

I kind of find it ironic that Cryptic started out with NCSoft (Korea) and eventually ended up (for now) with PWE (China). What do you guys think? ;)

[darkstarkirian]

I think someone's favorite movie is Clockwork Orange.
I think that someone somewhere loved the Spice Girls, for their music. ;)

[lordxenite]

Oh yeah, and I forgot to mention that little pit-stop in France with ATARI who actually are Infograms. :biggrin: Indeed, Cryptic is truly a globetrotter!

[tenkari]

since when ws Cryptic with NCSoft? if your referring to City of Heros..... NCSoft only bought the CoH Team that split off to form Paragon Studios, I dont think they ever owned Cryptic as a whole....

[sabrevt1100]

I think someone's favorite movie is Clockwork Orange.
I think that someone somewhere loved the Spice Girls, for their music. ;)

Hey... I like A Clockwork Orange....
:biggrin:

[eiledon]

this irony word you speak of. i do not think it means what you think it means.

[sovereignman]

throw in japan and you'll have a very awkward dinner party.

[darkstarkirian]

throw in japan and you'll have a very awkward dinner party.

... with tentacles...

[sovereignman]

now that's a lifetime subscription perk.

[nikoagonistes]

... and eventually ended up (for now) with PWE (China). What do you guys think? :wink:
Great.

That means that ever time I've bought Cryptic Points, I've been giving aid and support to a murderous, totalitarian government. :mad:

[sovereignman]

Great.

That means that ever time I've bought Cryptic Points, I've been giving aid and support to a murderous, totalitarian government. :mad:

How do you feel when you pay taxes?

[beezle23]

Great.

That means that ever time I've bought Cryptic Points, I've been giving aid and support to a murderous, totalitarian government. :mad:

I don't stress much over that. I already did it when I assembled my computer. :tongue:

[nikoagonistes]

How do you feel when you pay taxes?
The Chinese Communist Party regime is far worse than the United States government, even under the States' current presidency.

[sovereignman]

Don't believe everything the Federation tells you :)

[darkstarkirian]

Don't believe everything the Federation tells you :)

And don't believe everything the Terran Empire tells you not to believe about the Federation. :wink:

[nikoagonistes]

Um, sorry, but your attempt to claim the Chinese Communist Party as morally equivalent to the US government fails.

To list two examples I know about:
In China, dissidents are beaten, imprisoned and/or persecuted for their views. In the US, people can - and have - made the most outrageous statements about the government and its leaders and still remain citizens in good legal standing.
The Chinese government enforces a one-child policy among China's families (with perhaps a few exceptions) and utilizes means such as forced abortions and sterilizations to achieve those ends. In the US, however, you can have as many children as you want.

Do I need to continue?

[sovereignman]

Yes. Yes you do.

Talk about non-talking points scenarios when it comes to freedoms. How'd Waco turn out?

[nikoagonistes]

Yep, one single incident by one government is equivalent to the same type of act - or worse, done routinely by the other. :rolleyes:

Notice you are perfectly free to critize the US federal government's handling of Waco. Notice how many 9/11 truthers, Obama birthers, Osama deathers, and such people have not been beaten, jailed, or otherwise persecuted by the US government.

Now, go to China and try to offer similiar criticisms of its government and see what happens. (Again, you should note the fact that you can talk about the Waco incident all you want in the States - whereas in China, talking about Tiananmen Square is illegal.)

I could also mention the state's treatment of religion - in the US, churches and other religious organizations are free to run themselves as they see fit (while the Obama administration wants to change this, that's still up in the air), while in China if you want to belong to a religion, you have to join one of the state-controlled organizations. Don't believe me? Just ask the Dalai Lama, the Pope, any members of the illegal house churches, or the Falun Gong.

While the US government may not be perfect, the PRC is worse in the matters of human rights, and so I am not a hypocrite for opposing the latter while not rebelling against the former.

[suricatta]

Great.

That means that ever time I've bought Cryptic Points, I've been giving aid and support to a murderous, totalitarian government. :mad:

Don't quite get this, the money went to a company run by normal people, you can't fault the polulation of a country by the actions of thier government. Sure, the Chinese government may do crap things, but it doesn't mean i should give the people that live there carap and not buy thier products, just like I dislike stuff the US government has done, doesn't mean I don't buy from American companies or give crap to Americans, it's generally not thier fault afterall ;-)

God knows why I'm getting pulled into a political debate, but since there is no way to report threads anymore and these threads seem to be getting the norm since the New forums... :-P

[sovereignman]

Neither one are worth defending. The KDF is just blatant with the curb stomping of anything against their policies (like Tibet/religious folk). Where as the Federation has cloak and dagger down to a fine art.

Tea partiers, and occupy movementers were all but useful in the end. They got public support, got some politicians behind it, and then the complete opposite to what they were hoping happened.

The Federation is light years ahead of the Klingons in human rights, but that doesn't make up for their current dismantling of the constitution domestically. By the way, how full are the prisons right now? Piled high, and they're not just full of low income peon drug dealers. The worst offense of all is their foreign policy, which is as foul as its ever been. Blowback through and through.

The KDF is all that you've said above and then some, but at least the only thing they're doing right is that they're doing the trading and commerce around the globe that The Federation should have been doing.

You can attribute this to the western imperialism lessons that they've learned for a while now. They're ruthless because its what they've lived through.

Both get +1 and then -1. But once again I must reiterate. Neither the Federation or the Klingon "governments" are friends to anyone.

Make your money, and keep quiet.

And I'm sure you've "read between the lines" that I've barely done with find and replace :P

[nikoagonistes]

But aren't those dollars taxed, meaning some of my money goes to the PRC's regime? :confused:

[sovereignman]

Yes they are. Much like how I began our tirade with where does the money I pay to the Federation go to? Oh right, drone attacks in the Neutral zone.

[nikoagonistes]

So ... you're saying I should either stop being a law-abiding US citizen, or sell my soul and support China?

[sovereignman]

Yes nikoagonistes. That is exactly what I'm saying.

Look, it's not you, it's me. But I don't think this is going to work out.

[mikewendell]

I can;t believe I;m actually stepping into a political discussion. You folks don;t realize this but I stay away form these like the plague. First time in like years.

In China, dissidents are beaten, imprisoned and/or persecuted for their views. In the US, people can - and have - made the most outrageous statements about the government and its leaders and still remain citizens in good legal standing.

Go lookup the civil right movement and see how many times Dr. King was beaten and arrested. Heck, go lookup how many times that happened to Rosa Parks. And why did that happen? Because they weren't on good legal standing to use your own words.

The Chinese government enforces a one-child policy among China's families (with perhaps a few exceptions) and utilizes means such as forced abortions and sterilizations to achieve those ends. In the US, however, you can have as many children as you want.

No, they actually do that at the state level:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics_Board_of_North_Carolina

I;m on battery so I won;t list them by state but most of the states have had (and I bet a couple still do) have those policies.

[nikoagonistes]

Acutally, I think all the eugenics policies in the US have been repealed.

And it looks like I'm the only one who doesn't think the current US government is morally equivalent to the Chinese Communist Party... :rolleyes:

[lordxenite]

Look at this (http://nw.perfectworld.com/news/?p=640171)! :eek::cool:

[flywiz]

Acutally, I think all the eugenics policies in the US have been repealed.

And it looks like I'm the only one who doesn't think the current US government is morally equivalent to the Chinese Communist Party... :rolleyes:

Morally, we are. Just, in a different way. They aren't very nice to their own people, and we're not very nice to every other countries people.

This is going way, waaaay back, about 65 or 70 years, but, I don't think it was very moral to bomb Nagasaki or Hiroshima.

Every nation has the moral principles of Q. (If that makes any sense.) The vast majority of nations in the world have been at war, which, is to begin with, completely immoral. That's why I believe America is morally equivalent to the Chinese. But, so is England, France, Germany, Turkey, The Balkan nations. We just did harm to a different group of people.

As a well know certain someone said, "Now we are all sons of bleepers."

[kimmera]

Acutally, I think all the eugenics policies in the US have been repealed.

And it looks like I'm the only one who doesn't think the current US government is morally equivalent to the Chinese Communist Party... :rolleyes:

Apparently the NC laws weren't repealed until 2003, though. The current US government isn't morally equivalent to the Chinese Communist Party, but the US doesn't have China's population density either. That isn't excusing China, just explaining that they have a tougher situation in some ways.

The US very recently felt the need to torture suspects, and although there has been a lot of backpedaling, there was a sizable portion of the population that seemed to be backing such activity just after 911. And there are still prisoners in Guantanamo.

It is fair game to criticize China or any given country on their policies, but it is important to keep it constructive and be careful regarding outright condemning. And it is likewise important to keep one's own house in order rather than simply accept it unquestioningly out of blind patriotism or fear, and to avoid hypocrisy. Don't just claim to be better. Be better.

[lordxenite]

I know it's a lot to ask, but can we please keep this about Cryptic and not world politics? :confused:

[nikoagonistes]

Morally, we are. Just, in a different way.
Um, no. Just because someone has a reason for doing something doesn't necessarily make what they're doing morally right.

The North Carolina eugenics program (which pretty much ended in the 70s - the 2003 repeal was just a formality) applied to only a small group of people, and is no longer in use. The Chinese one-child policy, on the other hand, applies to the entire populace. Not to mention it is still in force.

I could go on, but try telling Chen Guangcheng (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chen_Guangcheng) that the People's Republic of China and the USA are, in terms of internal governance, on the same moral level. I dare you.


I know it's a lot to ask, but can we please keep this about Cryptic and not world politics? :confused:
Well, maybe Perfect World shouldn't have been located in such a controversial nation. :P

[flywiz]

Um, no. Just because someone has a reason for doing something doesn't necessarily make what they're doing morally right.

The North Carolina eugenics program (which pretty much ended in the 70s - the 2003 repeal was just a formality) applied to only a small group of people, and is no longer in use. The Chinese one-child policy, on the other hand, applies to the entire populace. Not to mention it is still in force.

I could go on, but try telling Chen Guangcheng (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chen_Guangcheng) that the People's Republic of China and the USA are, in terms of internal governance, on the same moral level. I dare you.



Well, maybe Perfect World shouldn't have been located in such a controversial nation. :P

I think you should try telling that the US has more morals than China to the kids that died in the bombings. I agree, I think we are at least trying to get better, but, the past will always be there.

[jexsamx]

And it looks like I'm the only one who doesn't think the current US government is morally equivalent to the Chinese Communist Party... :rolleyes:

More like you're the only one that doesn't grasp the difference between giving money to a company harming no one and giving money to a totalitarian government. People have tried to explain it to you, yet it continues to fly over your head.

I'll give you credit, though. You're at least smart enough to specifically name the ruling party rather than the Chinese people in general. But it's still sort of like being the smartest student in a class where everyone... no, no that's too mean, I'll stop there.

[nikoagonistes]

I think you should try telling that the US has more morals than China to the kids that died in the bombings. I agree, I think we are at least trying to get better, but, the past will always be there.
Which bombings? The Aurora shootings? (Which weren't bombings anyway.) Because I don't think that was sponsored by the US government...
More like you're the only one that doesn't grasp the difference between giving money to a company harming no one and giving money to a totalitarian government. People have tried to explain it to you, yet it continues to fly over your head.
But the government taxes companies located in its countries, so some of that money given to that company does wind up in the hands of said totalitarian government.

And was the insult absolutely neccessary?

[flywiz]

Which bombings? The Aurora shootings? (Which weren't bombings anyway.) Because I don't think that was sponsored by the US government...

But the government taxes companies located in its countries, so some of that money given to that company does wind up in the hands of said totalitarian government.

And was the insult absolutely neccessary?

Not the Aurora shootings. I'm talking about the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings. Where literal thousands of children were killed for no good reason.

[thecosmic1]

Great.

That means that ever time I've bought Cryptic Points, I've been giving aid and support to a murderous, totalitarian government. :mad:
Actually, PW is a publicly-traded corporation, so every time you buy Zen you're actually giving aid to me - and millions of others who own PWRD stock. :)

[nikoagonistes]

Not the Aurora shootings. I'm talking about the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings. Where literal thousands of children were killed for no good reason.
Well, actually on those two events, I'd agree. However, I would also add they happened over 60 or so years ago. China's policies, however, continue to be implemented to this day.

[flywiz]

Well, actually on those two events, I'd agree. However, I would also add they happened over 60 or so years ago. China's policies, however, continue to be implemented to this day.

Which is why, like I said, I would agree that we are trying to get better. It may not be getting better fast, but, we are getting better. But, the past is always there.