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-   -   Why perfect stealth is overpowered. (http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=100880)

Archived Post 02-03-2010 12:21 PM

Why perfect stealth is overpowered.
 
Anyone who can utilize perfect stealth is overpowered on principle. This is true in any game. If a class, ship or whatever exists that can make itself invisible they will always have the most favourable win/loss ratio in the game when they are played right:

1. Picking your fights.
Being able to decide who to attack and who to avoid a confrontation basicly allows you to only fight when you already know you will win.
Let's say were're talking about a generic MMO where the class thief can turn invisible. If the thief encounters a lonely wizard he can kill him no problem, if the thief encounters two knights he can simply stay hidden and not be killed.
This basicly means that even if he is completely alone someone with perfect stealth can play in a way that retains a positive if not perfect win/loss ratio.

2. Always on the offensive.
If you have perfect stealth you are always on the offensive. You decide when and where to fight, your enemy can never go out to attack you, he can only wait till you attack him. The only way you are ever forced into a defensive position is if you need to defend a static objective that you can't hide along with yourself.
In our generic MMO it plays out like this: A knight wants to kill the thief, but he can't do anything to find him. He can't go on the offensive, so the only way he has to acctually defeat the thief is to somehow get attacked by him first.
If you have perfect stealth you are always on the offensive, you are never in a defensive position where the other person initiates the attack.

3. Impossible to strategize against.
Let's say you do have a situation where there are static objectives on the map, and you are forced to fight to keep them intact or take down those of your enemy. You are still at a huge advantage having perfect stealth, because your opponent doesn't know where to send their forces to effectively counter your attack, all he can do is either guess where you will be or spread his forces so thin that they can't effectively attack or defend anything. Given an equal number of units attacking and defending on each side this gives the side with stealth an overwhelming advantage.
In terms of a generic MMO, if 5 knights fight 5 thieves and each side has 3 towers to defend then the knights have absolutely no way of defending theirs They don't know which one will be attacked, they don't know which ones th enemy is defending. They don't know if the enemy is traveling in a large force or in small teams. Also the thieves can respond to an attack, because they see it coming before it happens, the knights can only respond when its already too late.
If you have stealth then you deprive your opponent of any chance to use strategy against you, the only thing they can do is go in full force and hope they can accomplish their objectives faster than the stealthers.

Archived Post 02-03-2010 12:22 PM

Fortunately there is no perfect stealth in this game.

You do however have to -try- to detect. If you didn't have to try, then it wouldn't be useful when someone did.

Archived Post 02-03-2010 12:31 PM

Yea, right, the ability to detect an enemy ship within 2-3km of you is soooooo useful if the enemy can turn and run 20km from you if they don't want to fight you and uncloak and shoot 10km from you if they do want to fight.

Detection is an absolute non-factor in STO.

Archived Post 02-03-2010 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rothnang
Anyone who can utilize perfect stealth is overpowered on principle. This is true in any game. If a class, ship or whatever exists that can make itself invisible they will always have the most favourable win/loss ratio in the game when they are played right:

1. Picking your fights.
Being able to decide who to attack and who to avoid a confrontation basicly allows you to only fight when you already know you will win.
Let's say were're talking about a generic MMO where the class thief can turn invisible. If the thief encounters a lonely wizard he can kill him no problem, if the thief encounters two knights he can simply stay hidden and not be killed.
This basicly means that even if he is completely alone someone with perfect stealth can play in a way that retains a positive if not perfect win/loss ratio.

2. Always on the offensive.
If you have perfect stealth you are always on the offensive. You decide when and where to fight, your enemy can never go out to attack you, he can only wait till you attack him. The only way you are ever forced into a defensive position is if you need to defend a static objective that you can't hide along with yourself.
In our generic MMO it plays out like this: A knight wants to kill the thief, but he can't do anything to find him. He can't go on the offensive, so the only way he has to acctually defeat the thief is to somehow get attacked by him first.
If you have perfect stealth you are always on the offensive, you are never in a defensive position where the other person initiates the attack.

3. Impossible to strategize against.
Let's say you do have a situation where there are static objectives on the map, and you are forced to fight to keep them intact or take down those of your enemy. You are still at a huge advantage having perfect stealth, because your opponent doesn't know where to send their forces to effectively counter your attack, all he can do is either guess where you will be or spread his forces so thin that they can't effectively attack or defend anything. Given an equal number of units attacking and defending on each side this gives the side with stealth an overwhelming advantage.
In terms of a generic MMO, if 5 knights fight 5 thieves and each side has 3 towers to defend then the knights have absolutely no way of defending theirs They don't know which one will be attacked, they don't know which ones th enemy is defending. They don't know if the enemy is traveling in a large force or in small teams. Also the thieves can respond to an attack, because they see it coming before it happens, the knights can only respond when its already too late.
If you have stealth then you deprive your opponent of any chance to use strategy against you, the only thing they can do is go in full force and hope they can accomplish their objectives faster than the stealthers.


Its not perfect.

and you thought klingons in this game would be able toooooo what? Exactly what did you expect them to do?

Archived Post 02-03-2010 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rothnang
Anyone who can utilize perfect stealth is overpowered on principle. This is true in any game. If a class, ship or whatever exists that can make itself invisible they will always have the most favourable win/loss ratio in the game when they are played right:

1. Picking your fights.

2. Always on the offensive.

3. Impossible to strategize against.
Let's say you do have a situation where there are static objectives on the map, and you are forced to fight to keep them intact or take down those of your enemy. .


#1 and #2: Yes, exactly as intended. Klinks are offensive based, they have limited defenses (less access to gear, weaker ships, less BO slots). Feds are defensively oriented, with a plethora of options due to the availability of a triad of specialized ships, luxurious options for gear, and sturdy ships.

Klinks give up a lot for the cloak. And the cloak is only valuable in the setup to the attack. If they don't make it pay, they all die horribly because cloaks are worthless once you're in combat. Sure the BoP has a battlecloak, but even that is easily mitigated by a smart Fed team...and the Klink BoP pilots give up a lot for that battlecloak.


#3) So your point is that Feds should lose all the Cap&hold maps because of stealth? Strange, because 9 times out of 10 I see Feds absolutely STOMPING THE CRAP out of the Klinks in cap&hold.

Archived Post 02-03-2010 12:52 PM

Ive played an entire round in the Cracked Planet PVP T2 without using my cloak, it was not pretty. Try playing Klingon without cloak and see yourself what happens. I had our team do the "KlinkBall" (just like the FedBall) without the cloak boy was that a major fail. T1 is a different story, Klingons are too strong, probably due to equipment.

I have an idea about cloak if we can get the developers to make a cloak energy bar that will slowly deplete when cloak is engaged (60 sec of cloak, dependant on ship type), and a 2x charge on that energy bar when not cloaked. They could also make different cloak drops or cloak bonuses it would only add to the game.

Just an idea.

Archived Post 02-03-2010 12:54 PM

We just had a group of kdf last night play 10 matches of t1 pvp without ever using cloak, and they claimed that they won 10-0 and lost a single ship in the entire 10 matches. A SINGLE SHIP.

Where does that leave your argument now? The deciding factor isn't stealth.

Archived Post 02-03-2010 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vespar (Post 1900812)
Ive played an entire round in the Cracked Planet PVP without using my cloak, it was not pretty. Try playing Klingon without cloak and see yourself what happens. I had our team do the "KlinkBall" (just like the FedBall) without the cloak boy was that a major fail.

I have an idea about cloak if we can get the developers to make a cloak energy bar that will slowly deplete when cloak is engaged (60 sec of cloak, dependant on ship type), and a 2x charge on that energy bar when not cloaked. They could also make different cloak drops or cloak bonuses it would only add to the game.

Just an idea.

The reason why it's major fail is that you didn't fight as your ships were designed to fight. If you're a flight of BoPs that wouldn't cloak, then you gave up BO slots/BO ranks for nothing, and you had a fragile piece of glass with no hull. And you wonder why you lost?

Your "test" would be as valid as me saying the T4 cruisers are broken because I played a whole round after loading up cannons on it and I couldn't kill anyone because they wouldn't stay in my front 90 degrees. Yes, not being able to fly a T4 cruiser like an escort sure does show the cruiser is broken. So lets have a timer on my cruiser that would let it turn and maneuver like an escort, because that would be more fair.

Archived Post 02-03-2010 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vespar (Post 1900812)
Ive played an entire round in the Cracked Planet PVP T2 without using my cloak, it was not pretty. Try playing Klingon without cloak and see yourself what happens. I had our team do the "KlinkBall" (just like the FedBall) without the cloak boy was that a major fail. T1 is a different story, Klingons are too strong, probably due to equipment.

I have an idea about cloak if we can get the developers to make a cloak energy bar that will slowly deplete when cloak is engaged (60 sec of cloak, dependant on ship type), and a 2x charge on that energy bar when not cloaked. They could also make different cloak drops or cloak bonuses it would only add to the game.

Just an idea.

I just played a bunch of T3 matches where I did not use cloak. In one match I sat alone 12km from 4 Feds in a ball and they refused to attack. Their reasoning? It was obviously an ambush. It wasnt, though a buddy of my was nearby to help out just in case. So the problem is not cloak, its just that the Feds are so conditioned to fear it that they would rather be alpha striked then go on the offensive against a single K't'inga.

Archived Post 02-03-2010 02:02 PM

You're gonna love Romulan players then , especially when the big warbirds are battle cloaking all over the place. Good luck to you. ,Might as well quit now, before you lose all your nerve and dignity.


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