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-   -   Fun with numbers (Exploiters vs Locators) (http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1033791)

rylanadionysis 02-25-2014 12:24 AM

Fun with numbers (Exploiters vs Locators)
 
Just going to play with numbers in this thread.

Using a weapon with 1000 base damage doing 100,000 shots

Assuming the Base(1+x) is correct for the calculation of critical hits

Assuming a ship with five tactical consoles

Assuming all else is equal on the ship besides the consoles.

-------------- TEST ONE ---------------

22 percent crit
85 severity

78000 non crits of 1000 = 78 million
22000 crits of 1850 = 40.7 million

118.7 million

Add exploiters, 22 percent crit, 125 severity

78000 non crits of 1000 = 78M
22000 crits of 2250 = 49.5M

127.5M

Add locators, 30 critH, 85 critD

70000 non crits of 1000 = 70M
30000 crits of 1850 = 55.5M

125.5M

Exploiters win


--------------- TEST 2 -----------------------

14 percent crit
110 severity

86000 @ 1000 = 86M
14000 @ 2100 = 29.4M

115.4M

Exploiters 14 critH, 150 sev

86000 @ 1000 = 86M
14000 @ 2500 = 35M

121M

Locators 22 critH, 110 critD

78000 @ 1000 = 78M
22000 @ 2100 = 46.2M

124.2M

Locators win


----- TEST 3 --------

33 crit H
140 crit D

67000 @ 1000 = 67M
33000 @ 2400 = 79.2M

146.2M

Exploiters, 33 H, 180 D

67000 @ 1000 = 67M
33000 @ 2800 = 92.4M

159.4M

Locators, 41H, 140 D

59000 @ 1000 = 59M
41000 @ 2400 = 98.4M

157.4M

Exploiters win

rylanadionysis 02-25-2014 12:29 AM

The reason for this little thread is because I have discovered something mathematically that you might all enjoy.

If you have a critical hit chance of less than 20 before adding them, the locators seem to win out

If you have a critical hit chance of more than 20 before adding them, the exploiters seem to win out

If you have a critical hit chance of exactly 20 before adding them, then both consoles will boost your damage by the exact same amount

No matter what your base severity was before you added them.


No matter which number combination I have tried, this is holding true. Mathematically something I said three months ago seems to now hold water, if you have over 20 critH, the tier 2 consoles will always be better. Please mathematically prove me wrong, if you can. because I am unable to produce a result mathematically thus far that disproves the below theory.

If CritH > 20 then Exploiters
If CritH < 20 then Locators.
If CritH = 20 then either will produce identical results


Now im curious if this only holds true on five tac console ships or if its different for four or even three console ships.

thexq 02-25-2014 01:19 AM

Hi

For test one if you add four locators and one exploiter you get 127,612M.

Exploiter has +8% CrtD, Locator has +1.6% CrtH their ratio is 8/1.6 = 5:1. This means that when you're adding these you should be aiming for 5:1 final D/H ratio. In your example:

Starting values:

D 85% H 22% ratio ~3.58:1 >> Add Exploiter

Added: Exploiters 1, Locators 0
D 93% H 22% ratio ~4.23:1 >> Add Exploiter

Added: Exploiters 2, Locators 0
D 93% H 22% ratio ~4.59:1 >> Add Exploiter

Added: Exploiters 3, Locators 0
D 101% H 22% ratio ~4.95:1 >> Add Exploiter (it still brings us closer to 5:1 ratio)

Added: Exploiters 4 Locators 0
D 117% H 22% ratio ~5.32:1 >> Add Locator (now adding locator brings us closer to 5:1 ratio; ~4.96:1 vs ~5.68:1)

Added: Exploiters 4, Locators 1
D 117% H 23.6% ratio ~4.96:1 >> Final damage multiplier from crits = 1 + 0.236x1.17 = 1.27612

>>> 100000 hits x (1000 x 1.27612) dmage = 127.612M damage

Likewise, if you where adding weapon mods they have ratio (D/H) of 10:1 so if adding CrtD mods (+20% D) would serve better.

rylanadionysis 02-25-2014 01:27 AM

Now that is the kind of math I like to see, honestly. With so many arguments over EvL it didnt even occur to me to mix them up (something I strongly supported early on and jumped away from as time went on)

I shall do further tests now. The all or the other crowds are probably wrong altogether in light of this.

carlosbfly 02-25-2014 02:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rylanadionysis (Post 15336981)
The reason for this little thread is because I have discovered something mathematically that you might all enjoy.

If you have a critical hit chance of less than 20 before adding them, the locators seem to win out

If you have a critical hit chance of more than 20 before adding them, the exploiters seem to win out

If you have a critical hit chance of exactly 20 before adding them, then both consoles will boost your damage by the exact same amount

No matter what your base severity was before you added them.


No matter which number combination I have tried, this is holding true. Mathematically something I said three months ago seems to now hold water, if you have over 20 critH, the tier 2 consoles will always be better. Please mathematically prove me wrong, if you can. because I am unable to produce a result mathematically thus far that disproves the below theory.

If CritH > 20 then Exploiters
If CritH < 20 then Locators.
If CritH = 20 then either will produce identical results


Now im curious if this only holds true on five tac console ships or if its different for four or even three console ships.

Really well explained, thank you.

In regard to "If CritH < 20 then Locators" do you still keep going with Locators even when you bring CritH up to 20? So regardless you just keep boosting up that CritH right?

xxxhellspawnyxxx 02-25-2014 02:33 AM

Two remarks:

1. PvE or PvP
In PvE you want DPS. In PvP you need burst damage. And I prefer CrtH for spike damage since I just need that single crit. And in most cases it doesn't matter if it's 45k damage or 60k. But it matters if that BO or HY crits or not.

2. Weapon Mods
Normal vr weapons will give you 3 mods. Leaving Dmg and Acc aside you can choose between any combination of CrtH and CrtD. Since it's obvious that it's easier to push CrtH by adding locator consoles (1,6 crtH vs. 8 CrtD) and superior operatives (2,0 vs. 5) you should choose [CrtD]x3 for +60 CrtD or at least [CrtD]x2 [CrtH].

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1pqjij3945...r_English.xlsm

Is an Excel spreadsheet which let's you play around with equipment and weapons to find the best combination for your build.

baudl 02-25-2014 03:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rylanadionysis (Post 15336981)
The reason for this little thread is because I have discovered something mathematically that you might all enjoy.

If you have a critical hit chance of less than 20 before adding them, the locators seem to win out

If you have a critical hit chance of more than 20 before adding them, the exploiters seem to win out

If you have a critical hit chance of exactly 20 before adding them, then both consoles will boost your damage by the exact same amount

No matter what your base severity was before you added them.


No matter which number combination I have tried, this is holding true. Mathematically something I said three months ago seems to now hold water, if you have over 20 critH, the tier 2 consoles will always be better. Please mathematically prove me wrong, if you can. because I am unable to produce a result mathematically thus far that disproves the below theory.

If CritH > 20 then Exploiters
If CritH < 20 then Locators.
If CritH = 20 then either will produce identical results


Now im curious if this only holds true on five tac console ships or if its different for four or even three console ships.

now this looks pretty solid.
However it seems that only romulans can actually produce crtH at around 20% without calculating in the tac consoles or weapon mods.

this leaves one conclusion: For romulans crtD mods and exploiter consoles will produce the most sustained dmg in PVE.
and for KDF and FED, which normaly have a hard time even reaching 13% crtH (before mods and tac consoles) the locators are almost exclusively better.

and considering that weapon mods crtD and crtH are at a different ration than on the tac consoles, crtD mod > crtH mod on weapons.

abcde123123 02-25-2014 04:01 AM

For what it's worth.

Hmmm... Im thinking about it on the back of my head for a while, but I still can't formalize the problem of crtD vs crtH.

Leaving aside factors like positioning, weapon power, crth based weapons proc etc: crtD is a real value and will always stay real, i.e. given 1 crit shot you will always deal your crtD damage.

CrtH however is just probability of crit event occuring or not.

Assuming 100 shots with 10 damage per shot

With 0% crth 0 crtd = 1000 damage

Base crth: 22% crtd: 80% (180%)

22 * (10 * 1.8) + 78 * 10 = 396 + 780 = 1176


5 Locators crth + 9%: crth 31% crtd 80%

31 * 18 + 69 * 10 = 558 + 690 = 1248

5 exploiters crtd + 40%: crth 22% crtd 120% (220%)

22 * (10 * 2.2) + 78 * 10 = 484 + 780 = 1264

--

n = number of shots
d = damage per shot
crth = 0.22
crtd = 180

n * crth * d * crtd + n * (1 - crth) * d => n * d * ( crth * crtd + (1 - crth) )

assuming n, d are scalar constants the damage function becomes

crth * crtd + (1 - crth) => (crth : x, crtd : y) =>

Our final function of damage over crth and crtd

dmg = x * y + (1-x)

--
Lets take 3d function plotter, as im too lazy to do derivative calculus for 2 variables:

http://www.math.uri.edu/~bkaskosz/flashmo/graph3d/

x * y + (1-x)

Parameters:
x = 0 - 30, y = 0 - 220

Bummer... this is a surprise. There's a little bump from 0 to zmax, which proves the claim that there's in fact sweet spot ratio of crtd and crth. Something which I didn't belive for a while.

--

Also worth noting my friend's little experiment: he parked 9km from ISE gate and for an hour setting his weapons on autofire. One hour with locators, and one hour with exploiters. His results were rather surprising: out of somewhat 1,200,000 dmg dealt in both cases the difference was 40k damage: less than 3%, which is well within experimental error.

carlosbfly 02-25-2014 04:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baudl (Post 15338361)

and considering that weapon mods crtD and crtH are at a different ration than on the tac consoles, crtD mod > crtH mod on weapons.

I went for DMGx3/CritH mod on all my Fleet AP weapons (hence why my critH % is at 17%). Was this a massive mistake then?

atmawpn 02-25-2014 04:52 AM

It's not about your crth, but the ratio of crth to crtd. Specifically crth should be at a 1:10 ratio to your crtd-100. So if you have 5% crth you should have 150% crtd. At 8% crth it should be 180% crtd and so forth.

To disprove your hypothesis of a crth 20 threshold for locator vs exploiter, compare the following ratios: crth 4 vs crtd 150. And crth 6 vs crtd 150. Compare the additional damage you will get with either a crth 2 mod or a crtd 20 mod.

To extend this, try testing a ratio of crth 5 vs crtd 150. Either mod goes in this instance. Incidentally this kinda proves the exploiter < locator sayings.


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