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-   -   A thought about fed v klingon balance (http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=185001)

Archived Post 10-20-2010 07:44 AM

A thought about fed v klingon balance
 
I had a thought the other day regarding the balance between fedeation and klingons ships in PvP.

Now, let me begin by saying that I generaly think that the two factions are balanced on paper. Each side has advantages and disadvantages, and all and all I think that player skill is the deciding factor in most PvP matches.

However I realised that there is one difference that may make klingon PuG teams more effectibve than their Federation counterpats. Since all klingon ships can mount dual cannons, and use CRF to apmlify that advantage whereas only select federation ships have that capability I think that focus fire from a klingon fleet of random composition has an advantage over focus fire from a federation fleet of random composition.

For example, a fleet of 3 escorts, a science ship and a cruiser, will do way more damage than a fleet of three science ships, a cruiser and an escort, but a fleet of 3 BoP, a raptor and a battle cruiser is much more comperable with regards to damage potential to a fleet composed of 3 battle cruisers, a BoP, and a raptor.

This could explain some of the perception that Klingons are overpowered.

In short, the difference between Klingons and feds in PvP is due primarily to skill and a slightly more forgiving learning curve on the klingon side makes Klingon PuG teams more "skilled" than their Fed counterparts because it takes less optimization at the team level to get the full potential from their ship.

Archived Post 10-20-2010 07:55 AM

I think one of the main benefits of the KDF Dual Cannons is the initial boost in the alpha strike. Afterwards, a Neg'Var (while I think being able to use dual cannons well) will take its time to bring its weapon to bear again. (Unless everyone stands still). Klingons rely a lot on their Alpha Strike. Making it very important to be able to counter it with resistances and heals.

The difference in player skill and experience after 51 levels of PvP vs 51 levels of PvE will probably never be fixed, unless we see a sudden influx of KDF players that exclusively use PvE to level.

Archived Post 10-20-2010 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turtlewing (Post 3104364)
For example, a fleet of 3 escorts, a science ship and a cruiser, will do way more damage than a fleet of three science ships, a cruiser and an escort, but a fleet of 3 BoP, a raptor and a battle cruiser is much more comperable with regards to damage potential to a fleet composed of 3 battle cruisers, a BoP, and a raptor.

This example is a little skewed in thinking that 3 Battle Cruisers, a BoP and a raptor wouldn't be capable of doing similar, if not identical damage as to 3 BoP, a Raptor, and a Battle Cruiser using Dual Heavy Cannons.

Sure the Battle Cruisers can't use Rapid fire II or Rapid Fire III, but if they all decloaked at the same time, with in the same -5km Range, the damage output would be quite substantial.

The same could be said of a Galaxy-X + Defiant combination.

But that's just of course an assumption on my part since I flew as a Tactical Klingon Captian for a good 6 Months in a Battle Cruiser with Dual heavy cannons and Tricobolt Torpedoes. :o

Archived Post 10-20-2010 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully (Post 3104401)
I think one of the main benefits of the KDF Dual Cannons is the initial boost in the alpha strike. Afterwards, a Neg'Var (while I think being able to use dual cannons well) will take its time to bring its weapon to bear again.

This information obviously needs to be put out there because I got tractored perfectly a couple of days ago in my BC, and then the fed helpfully flew into my firing arc.

When you see cannons on a cruiser, get behind me.

There, my good deed for the day. Back to kicking kittens.

Archived Post 10-20-2010 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kilawpilath (Post 3104442)
This example is a little skewed in thinking that 3 Battle Cruisers, a BoP and a raptor wouldn't be capable of doing similar, if not identical damage as to 3 BoP, a Raptor, and a Battle Cruiser using Dual Heavy Cannons.

Sure the Battle Cruisers can't use Rapid fire II or Rapid Fire III, but if they all decloaked at the same time, with in the same -5km Range, the damage output would be quite substantial.

The same could be said of a Galaxy-X + Defiant combination.

But that's just of course an assumption on my part since I flew as a Tactical Klingon Captian for a good 6 Months in a Battle Cruiser with Dual heavy cannons and Tricobolt Torpedoes. :o

I believe you just made the same Point I was trying to make. Unless I've misunderstood.

My claim is that damage output (perticularly focuse fired alpha strikes) from any combination of klingon ships remains fairly constant and high. On the other hand the damage output (perticularly a focus fired alpha strike) from a federation fleet varies grately based on fleet compoition (5 escorts is a whole difefrent world than 5 science ships damage wise, and thus play style wise).

This means that in a PuG enviroment where fleet compositions are essentually random, the klingons have an easier time developting effective tactics that the feds who have to know how to handle cases where they don't have any escorts, or no cruisers, in addition to the basics of how to be good at PvP which both factions need to be familiar with to be sicessful.

Archived Post 10-20-2010 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turtlewing (Post 3104465)
I believe you just made the same Point I was trying to make. Unless I've misunderstood.

My claim is that damage output (perticularly focuse fired alpha strikes) from any combination of klingon ships remains fairly constant and high. On the other hand the damage output (perticularly a focus fired alpha strike) from a federation fleet varies grately based on fleet compoition (5 escorts is a whole difefrent world than 5 science ships damage wise, and thus play style wise).

This means that in a PuG enviroment where fleet compositions are essentually random, the klingons have an easier time developting effective tactics that the feds who have to know how to handle cases where they don't have any escorts, or no cruisers, in addition to the basics of how to be good at PvP which both factions need to be familiar with to be sicessful.

You will find that most klingon cruisers run beams... you are right you gain a nice bonus on the alpha. However what balances it out very well is the MUCH higher sustained dps from a fed beam ball. Teams that survive or mostly survive the alpha are in a very good position.

Too your point the one thing the massive Klink Alpha does is it COMPLETELY Destroys the average fed pug willingness to fight. If we decloak and in very short order run the score to 5 to 0. Most fed pugs and some inexperienced teams fall apart.
I have seen a lot of fed pugs that will have one good regular fed pug player (Ala Mr. Hale for instance) who will pull them together and make it anything but a face roll.

Archived Post 10-20-2010 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Husanak (Post 3104483)
You will find that most klingon cruisers run beams... you are right you gain a nice bonus on the alpha. However what balances it out very well is the MUCH higher sustained dps from a fed beam ball. Teams that survive or mostly survive the alpha are in a very good position.

Too your point the one thing the massive Klink Alpha does is it COMPLETELY Destroys the average fed pug willingness to fight. If we decloak and in very short order run the score to 5 to 0. Most fed pugs and some inexperienced teams fall apart.
I have seen a lot of fed pugs that will have one good regular fed pug player (Ala Mr. Hale for instance) who will pull them together and make it anything but a face roll.

Agreed.

Maybe it's just me, but it seems like the overall nerfs to DPS have reduced amount of cross-healing seen in PUGs. Months ago a PUG team *had* to heal to be successful; there was simply no way they could win if someone didn't put ES on whichever escort turned out to be the focus target.

Now it's a lot easier for *everyone* to survive without support, so fewer people play a support role and fewer people know how to be supported. The lack of team support pushes people even more into playing solo ships and builds; it's a vicious circle.

The solution is as always: teamwork.

The easiest fix I could think of would be forced teaming for PvP matches. When you enter a match, you are in a team with everyone else on your side, and have no option to leave it. It wouldn't force the antisocial noobs to cooperate, but at least you could talk to one another, see where the team is when they respawn, and watch to see who's taking fire. You'd also see who is hiding out AFK, which I imagine is why people refuse team invites to begin with.

I'd think any more extreme fix would imbalance things more than they are.

Archived Post 10-20-2010 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turtlewing (Post 3104364)
player skill is the deciding factor in most PvP matches.

This is pretty much it for PvP.

People need to get off the whole Fed vs KDF balance horse.


I play both sides. I play on teams, but mostly I play in pugs.

The biggest issue I see is the unwillingness in players on both sides to adapt to the game they are fighting in.

One example, the recent changes in KDF carries. Time and time again I watch Fed players complaining of how impossible it is to fight KDF teams with a carrier, or multiple carriers, due to all the NPC ships.

**NEWSFLASH** - NPC ships stay on the target they were launched against until that target is destroyed.
What does this mean? Well, if you've got 6 BoPs or 24 Fighters targeting you, then play with a little brains.
Don't sit around in the ball of players that are also targeting you. Set engines to full or pop a engine batter and evasive as far away as possible, and watch the NPC ships follow you.
You can get far enough away to even change out a Tactical Bridge Officer is you need, and get one that has an area of effect (AoE) ability like Torpedo Spread, Canon Scatter Volley, or Beams:Fire at Will.
Carriers all on their own are far less effective than if you allow them to keep their NPC ships up.


Second, almost every Fed I've ever met in game that pilots an escort uses it to try and DPS.
People say "you can't tank in an escort". Well, that's pretty much a load of BS, as anyone who's come across me in my Fed Eng Escort while in a tanking build will attest to.

The only people that can bring a real balance to the game are the players, but in order for this to happen people have to be willing to learn, think, and strategize.

Archived Post 10-20-2010 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janko
I play both sides. I play on teams, but mostly I play in pugs.

The biggest issue I see is the unwillingness in players on both sides to adapt to the game they are fighting in.

Would you say that on average Klingon players do better at adapting to the conditions presented than federation players?

Archived Post 10-20-2010 10:21 AM

Anyone who thinks a Negh'var is capable of the same DPS as a raptor is for lack of a more polite or better term, an idiot.

In a raptor, I have broken 1 million Damage in score. No other ship have I done that with, and I have tried. (I don't fly a fed escort, but I am sure I could pull it off with one of them as well.)

When I was flying around as a Negh'var, I got tired of firing off all of my load in the first 5 seconds, then spend 30 seconds positioned again, so I left one DHC, and went beams up front, and turrets in back. I still had a lot of forward bite, but I had more side DPS as well allowing me to sustain damage output.

Klingon's are alpha strikers, science ships and fed cruisers are about sustained damage over time. Survive the alpha and the feds now have a higher chance of victory.


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