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-   -   Premades vs PUG teams in PVP (http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=188158)

Archived Post 11-12-2010 12:33 AM

Premades vs PUG teams in PVP
 
How bout doubling the PVP ques in game already and making the second set where people can not be on a team in game already; as in not letting teamed up people even in those ques or dividing up the teams when the game starts? Example of the dividing, a five member teams ques for this PUG only que, when the game actually starts, two of the five are removed from that team and are actually put on the other side of the match than the three others of the team [no way to divide it evenly with five just so you know].

Why you may ask?

Cause it's very unfair for a 4-5 member team, who are likely on a voice server if they are also likely in the same fleet, to face off against 5 people on the enemy team, who may not even bother to team up in the first place, who got in randomly on the same team side.

If premades wanted a fair fight, they would just challenge other premades, more like fleet battles of premades, than just join in the que and more than likely run up against 5 random people. And if they are just doing their daily PVP's together, then how bout doing it like the rest of the players and just queing up alone? And if their firends or fleeties are wanting to play together, there's always queing up at the same time so that they could be in the same match together, with the random-ness of a 50/50 shot of being on the same side.

PS, this is more for FvF, maybe KvK too, PVP's. A premade fed team vs a random or another premade klingon team would be more challenging for them than a random fed team against them; since klingons work well together better than feds do in PVP's.

Archived Post 11-12-2010 03:44 AM

This is something that was discussed previously. A big challenge is the question - does the population even support this? Otherwise, "Premades" would just be forced into the regular queue and just deal with the fact that sometimes they are split up and sometimes not.

Against an average PuG, you don't even need a Premade against you too lose. It can be enough to have 2 good players working together.

It is definitely something more for FvF, as you say yourself.
Of course, in FvK it is definitely useless - the teams can't be split up. (And KvK sucks at thematically - theoretically there are two different houses supposed to fight here! Of course, the existing Queue doesn't care for that, either.)


Another approach could just be to have a player ranking system so that Queue can try to group players of similar skill levels. (The ranking would probably need to be based on wins and losses of matches, and not on DPS or healing. The latter would be a full 100 % useless ranking.)

Archived Post 11-12-2010 04:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully
Another approach could just be to have a player ranking system so that Queue can try to group players of similar skill levels. (The ranking would probably need to be based on wins and losses of matches, and not on DPS or healing. The latter would be a full 100 % useless ranking.)

This is actually a really great idea, I think. There's already talk from Cryptic of implementing proper PvP stat tracking and leaderboards, so it would be a natural step to try and link players together in a match by stats.

However, the idea that premades should only fight other premades is itself fraught with problems.

My biggest issue with the notion is that it presupposes that all Pugs suck. This is simply not true. Perhaps many of them suck. Perhaps even a majority. But not all. I've seen PUGs beat up plenty of premades - and I've been on both the giving and receiving end of those beatings. Especially in C&H, it's possible for a clever PUG to outmaneouvre and beat a better premade in order to win the mission (and as fun as endless pew pew in C&H can be, let's never forget that a true soldier always remembers the mission).

If you're in a PUG and find yourself confronted with a premade, yes, it means the odds are likely to be stacked against you. But I find there are few greater joys in PvP in this game, than sucking it up, and taking that as a challenge to raise your game to their level - and then give them an unexpected bloody nose.

And let me tell you, for a premade, there are few things as humbling as getting beaten up by a PUG which just happened to consist of 5 very good individual players who chose to work together. It can and does happen.

Finally, it's downright ludicrous to tell premade players "you shouldn't be allowed to queue with you and your friends for any PvP match" you want, and expect us only to play other fleet premades all the time. It takes a level of organisation and scheduling to set up decent fleet vs. fleet matches, and it simply cannot be done constantly.

Premade PvPers tend to be voracious in their appetite for PvP - they want to do it nearly all the time they're logged in. Fleets will have PvP groups running all through primetime, with people dropping in and out as they come and go on- and off-line. You cannot set up enough premade vs. premade matches to feed that appetite. And moreover, sometimes, as much of a joy as the challenge of another good premade is (win or lose), you just want a nice bit of casual, mindless pew-pew. The queues are perfect for that.

So, sometimes, they're just bored, in no particular mood for the epic challenge of another premade (a match like that can also take an extraordinarily long time to complete between two evenly matched teams, so much so you end up with RSI by the end). It's their right to go into the queues looking for some quick, easy wins against PUGs (which also serves to keep them in practice for the premade matches).

Sorry that you sometimes end up serving as their target practice; but you can't demand they not fight you, that's why it's consensual PvP. You enter a PvP queue, you conset to being viciously ganked by whatever horrible premade may be out there. You don't get to choose your opponent and say "This guy/these guys are too hard for me, I don't want to have to fight them."

Fight them, try your best to beat them, and most of all, learn from the beatings they give you. Then, one day, you'll have your revenge.

TL;DR - Carebears are valid free meals for premades. Suck it up.

Archived Post 11-12-2010 09:56 AM

Quote:

TL;DR - Carebears are valid free meals for premades. Suck it up.

PvP in STO is something where you've got to know what you're doing and one person can screw things up for the whole team. It takes work to learn or to train someone to be good and most people don't want to do that for a game that rewards you for defecting in the Prisoner's Dilemma.

I wrote out my idea for team queues in another thread. One of the big things though, was that you should not be rewarded equally for both winning and losing. I think I might clarify and expand on them and put them in a new thread.

Archived Post 11-12-2010 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faithborn
PvP in STO is something where you've got to know what you're doing and one person can screw things up for the whole team. It takes work to learn or to train someone to be good and most people don't want to do that for a game that rewards you for defecting in the Prisoner's Dilemma.

I wrote out my idea for team queues in another thread. One of the big things though, was that you should not be rewarded equally for both winning and losing. I think I might clarify and expand on them and put them in a new thread.

The other day in an arena match there were 2 cruisers that just kept flying into the fray of 4 KDF players over and over again. I can only believe prisoner's dilemma as reason....they wanted the emblems quickly to go off and do something else. They werent trying to save a teammate, they werent trying to stay in a group and werent trying to distract us, the KDF, as we were the main group. They just wanted to die enough to end the match vs the desire of other teammates who prolly were hoping to try and win.

Quote:

Finally, it's downright ludicrous to tell premade players "you shouldn't be allowed to queue with you and your friends for any PvP match" you want, and expect us only to play other fleet premades all the time. It takes a level of organisation and scheduling to set up decent fleet vs. fleet matches, and it simply cannot be done constantly.

Premade PvPers tend to be voracious in their appetite for PvP - they want to do it nearly all the time they're logged in. Fleets will have PvP groups running all through primetime, with people dropping in and out as they come and go on- and off-line. You cannot set up enough premade vs. premade matches to feed that appetite. And moreover, sometimes, as much of a joy as the challenge of another good premade is (win or lose), you just want a nice bit of casual, mindless pew-pew. The queues are perfect for that.
At the same time, the OP post is selfish to this point. would adding a special queue for premades be desirable.....maybe. Should they get standard rewards for doing it....maybe. Should they be broken up because premade's own pugs in nearly every match....NEVER.
Even if the premade is trying to teach 1 or 2 new fleeties into the whole ordeal of the premade pvp. Kudo's to them. Furthermore, penalizing friends in a fleet from actually doing something together is Ludicrous. God only knows there isnt enough teamwork in STO.....it is so easy to solo you have no real reason to team up anyways.

Archived Post 11-12-2010 03:20 PM

You people seem to forget that I suggested two ques, one for PUGs and one for premades, when I brought up the idea of premade teams being randomly split.

If premades don't care, they'll que up for both, if they do want to stay together, then they'll only que for the premades que. It's no big deal.

And this works both ways too, if some PUG people are just trying to get their daily done and there's few in the PUG que but 5+ in the premade que; I'd imagine there will still be plenty or PUG vs premade matches done even after there being two ques.

Basically I am asking for choices. A choice of a 50/50 shot of winning or losing in pvp's.

Archived Post 11-12-2010 06:40 PM

My answer to this issue is to try and raise the skill level of all players, pros and pugs alike:

http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...d.php?t=188298

More people is what we really need.

As a member of a premade I would endorse any plan that splits my carefully trained and drilled team up. I feel for those we run over. But, I hope they learn from it th way I did when getting worked over by CHC, FS, etc.

:)

Archived Post 11-16-2010 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Middlemore
*snip*
If you're in a PUG and find yourself confronted with a premade, yes, it means the odds are likely to be stacked against you. But I find there are few greater joys in PvP in this game, than sucking it up, and taking that as a challenge to raise your game to their level - and then give them an unexpected bloody nose.

And let me tell you, for a premade, there are few things as humbling as getting beaten up by a PUG which just happened to consist of 5 very good individual players who chose to work together. It can and does happen.

Finally, it's downright ludicrous to tell premade players "you shouldn't be allowed to queue with you and your friends for any PvP match" you want, and expect us only to play other fleet premades all the time. It takes a level of organisation and scheduling to set up decent fleet vs. fleet matches, and it simply cannot be done constantly.

Premade PvPers tend to be voracious in their appetite for PvP - they want to do it nearly all the time they're logged in. Fleets will have PvP groups running all through primetime, with people dropping in and out as they come and go on- and off-line. You cannot set up enough premade vs. premade matches to feed that appetite. And moreover, sometimes, as much of a joy as the challenge of another good premade is (win or lose), you just want a nice bit of casual, mindless pew-pew. The queues are perfect for that.

So, sometimes, they're just bored, in no particular mood for the epic challenge of another premade (a match like that can also take an extraordinarily long time to complete between two evenly matched teams, so much so you end up with RSI by the end). It's their right to go into the queues looking for some quick, easy wins against PUGs (which also serves to keep them in practice for the premade matches).

Sorry that you sometimes end up serving as their target practice; but you can't demand they not fight you, that's why it's consensual PvP. You enter a PvP queue, you conset to being viciously ganked by whatever horrible premade may be out there. You don't get to choose your opponent and say "This guy/these guys are too hard for me, I don't want to have to fight them."

Fight them, try your best to beat them, and most of all, learn from the beatings they give you. Then, one day, you'll have your revenge.

TL;DR - Carebears are valid free meals for premades. Suck it up.

I don't have any problem with a premade jumping in for a match or two every now and then. The thing I have a problem with is when they are trolling the PVP queue for hours at a time with a full 5-man. Hell, I roll with at least two friends on Vent at all times when playing PVP, and I think we're all good (though not top-level good) players, and I've run into a few premades where there was absolutely no chance of winning. Having our only focused healer chain-stunned until his death approximately 5 seconds later and then being picked off is about as fun as smacking myself in the head with a hammer.

I understand wanting to play with your friends. I also understand having a great appetite for pvp. But at a certain point, squatting on the queue with a full premade crosses the line into griefing. I'll give it the college try a couple of times, but after that, you can expect some passive resistance from me and mine.

Archived Post 11-16-2010 10:39 AM

At an absolute minimum we need an auto-team function in PvP. It would also be nice if there was an easy way for players to flag targets to allow for much easier PUG communication. A big colored circle would be just fine.

I'd like to see a handicap system as well that can be set by a premade to give PUGs they encounter a buff. Something like the Normal / Advanced / Elite mission settings, togglable by the team leader, which provide a buff to hull, shields, and damage output for the opposing team.

I'd also like to see a feature where the PvP system will not place you in a match if someone on your ignore list is in that match. This is an easy way for casual players to simply ignore members of hardcore PvP fleets and not need to worry about facing them. There is a wonderful risk, too, in that if someone ignores too many people they won't be able to play. I like it as a way to help the community police itself and players determine what skill level they're willing to compete against.

Archived Post 11-16-2010 10:48 AM

Splitting the queues for premades would then leave you with people who still wanted to win vs those who just want emblems, so you'd have to split it again...and then for good/bad, smart/moron...

Auto teaming and a good way to call targets would be slightly helpful, but see note on emblem farmers above.


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