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-   -   L2P: Taking down a Klingon Carrier (http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=198526)

Archived Post 01-24-2011 11:10 AM

L2P: Taking down a Klingon Carrier
 
There is a lot of discussion about players not knowing how to handle this situation or that ship. I do believe that most of the problems stems from a lack of educational material present in the game. Without this material the casual PvP will always want something or another nerf'd. Education is what is needed.

This is were hardcore PvPers comes in to play. We are the ones who have developed tactics that are effective. We have spent hours on end reviewing our game play, analyzing our opponents strategy (or lack there of), modifying our BOffs, and tweaking our loadouts. Collectively, we have the knowledge to make EVERYONE a better player. We use this knowledge purposefully against other hPvPer and innately in PuGs. Therein lies the problem ... only we have the knowledge.

So, I propose we develop a series of L2P threads. (L2P being constructive not derogatory.) The purpose is to provide access known effective strategies and tactics to the casual PvP player. If it is a situation where Feds need educating ... put it here: Federation Gameplay. If it is a situation where Klingons need educating ... put it here: Klingon Gameplay. Down the road, when other playable factions are added we can put those discussions in their associated Gameplay forum.

Okay, so the PROPOSED changes to Klingon carriers is getting EVERYONE in an uproar. Feds say this. Klingons say that. Blah, blah, blah. I'm going to stay out of that discussion AND ask that we not have that discussion here. However we can use it as our first installment of L2P articles.

To start, I have noted that a lot of that discussion centers around the carrier as an isolated unit and comparing it to this, that or the other ship, but I have seen no discussion regarding its inclusion as a part of a team. So, I ask those who play Fed and Klingon: How do you handle a carrier in PvP? How do you handle 2 ... 3? What tactic should you expect to see from a carrier captain? How do you deal with the pet population?

(Please be civil.)

Archived Post 01-24-2011 11:48 AM

I think the reason for the changes are such: a single carrier is a nuisance, but not invincible, However, a group of carriers is a lag fest and causes great frustration in pvp.

I normally don't care about carriers, however this weekend I had the opportunity to be in a match vs 3 carries and 2 bops. The sheer amount of fighters alone i'm sure had to be near 50, I may be mistaken as I never had the opportunity to count. The point is that against that many npcs, in what is supposed to be pvp combat, most players get frustrated or simply overpowered. The problem isn't the carrier itself, but the usage of multiple carriers in a single match, to which there can never really be an ideal fix.

Archived Post 01-24-2011 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheKalamity (Post 3304111)
I think the reason for the changes are such: a single carrier is a nuisance, but not invincible, However, a group of carriers is a lag fest and causes great frustration in pvp.

I normally don't care about carriers, however this weekend I had the opportunity to be in a match vs 3 carries and 2 bops. The sheer amount of fighters alone i'm sure had to be near 50, I may be mistaken as I never had the opportunity to count. The point is that against that many npcs, in what is supposed to be pvp combat, most players get frustrated or simply overpowered. The problem isn't the carrier itself, but the usage of multiple carriers in a single match, to which there can never really be an ideal fix.

The only reason I get overpowered is not so much the graphical lag but the ability to fire off BOff skills when I want in a NPC spam fest. I have to click a power 3-4 times to get them to fire and in this game timing is everything. For some reason when there are 20 plus deployables, plus mines, and photonics the GUI is very hard pressed on my end to keep up.

Archived Post 01-24-2011 11:56 AM

I'll just throw in this:

Pets > Carrier

Deal with the pets, and you'll have essentially declawed the carrier. Too many people make the mistake of going directly for the carrier, allowing it to build up and maintain its "cloud" of pets long enough for them to unleash their feared torpedo volleys. If you want to attack a carrier, take care of the pets first. Ideally, ignore the carrier and just deal with his pets, then focus on squishier ships. Carrier can be very hard to take down, especially if used with a survival build and escorted by good teamplayers. This is why they are often described as being able to "anchor" a battle, even if the carrier in itself is nothing without its pets.

Ideally, you'll have one player focusing on "neutralizing" the carrier's tactical value by engaging its pets whilst the rest of the team goes for a proper target. Naturally, Escorts with Cannon Spread are very useful for this, but I've heard good things about cruisers with Beam FaW as well. I am currently leveling a Fed Tactical to specialize in anti-fighter duty, as the ongoing complaints have made me want to try it myself.
This, of course, boils down to teamplay. I often read comments from Fed Cruiser captains complaining that Escorts should do their damn job and escort them, so take this as anouther encouragement that it is quite possible to deal with a carrier-reinforced battlegroup if you just work together as a team.

Another mistake I see regularly (though nowadays not as often as months ago) is that the popular Fedball dislikes maneuvering. A carrier is able to launch its pets from a distance of 15km. If you don't move in and attack, the carrier will continue to build up a swarm of fighters and/or BoP's until it becomes hard to deal with. So don't just wait until you get attacked, instead turn the tide and engage before the enemy has finished preparing for the battle.

Other than that, let me finish by providing a link to a (in my opinion) rather helpful post from a carrier pilot concerning advantages and weaknesses of a carrier and what they mean for you:
http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...1&postcount=23

Archived Post 01-24-2011 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valias
I'll just throw in this:

Pets > Carrier

Deal with the pets, and you'll have essentially declawed the carrier. Too many people make the mistake of going directly for the carrier, allowing it to build up and maintain its "cloud" of pets long enough for them to unleash their feared torpedo volleys. If you want to attack a carrier, take care of the pets first. Ideally, ignore the carrier and just deal with his pets, then focus on squishier ships. Carrier can be very hard to take down, especially if used with a survival build and escorted by good teamplayers. This is why they are often described as being able to "anchor" a battle, even if the carrier in itself is nothing without its pets.

Ideally, you'll have one player focusing on "neutralizing" the carrier's tactical value by engaging its pets whilst the rest of the team goes for a proper target. Naturally, Escorts with Cannon Spread are very useful for this, but I've heard good things about cruisers with Beam FaW as well. I am currently leveling a Fed Tactical to specialize in anti-fighter duty, as the ongoing complaints have made me want to try it myself.
This, of course, boils down to teamplay. I often read comments from Fed Cruiser captains complaining that Escorts should do their damn job and escort them, so take this as anouther encouragement that it is quite possible to deal with a carrier-reinforced battlegroup if you just work together as a team.

Another mistake I see regularly (though nowadays not as often as months ago) is that the popular Fedball dislikes maneuvering. A carrier is able to launch its pets from a distance of 15km. If you don't move in and attack, the carrier will continue to build up a swarm of fighters and/or BoP's until it becomes hard to deal with. So don't just wait until you get attacked, instead turn the tide and engage before the enemy has finished preparing for the battle.

Other than that, let me finish by providing a link to a (in my opinion) rather helpful post from a carrier pilot concerning advantages and weaknesses of a carrier and what they mean for you:
http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...1&postcount=23

That's common sense. I'd like to see you attempt to declaw 3 carriers while you have two bops alpha striking you, 3 carriers shooting you at range, and 50+ photons inbound to your shieldless hull. I'm an experienced pvper and specifically keep copies of fire and will and gravity well to deal with mobs of spawns but there are times when you simply don't get the time or they're on cooldowns.

Archived Post 01-24-2011 12:10 PM

Yes, definitely Pets>Carrier,

When I played Carrier, I couldn't get enough dps to kill anything without my pets.

Archived Post 01-24-2011 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tranceaddict (Post 3304031)
There is a lot of discussion about players not knowing how to handle this situation or that ship. I do believe that most of the problems stems from a lack of educational material present in the game. Without this material the casual PvP will always want something or another nerf'd. Education is what is needed.

This is were hardcore PvPers comes in to play. We are the ones who have developed tactics that are effective. We have spent hours on end reviewing our game play, analyzing our opponents strategy (or lack there of), modifying our BOffs, and tweaking our loadouts. Collectively, we have the knowledge to make EVERYONE a better player. We use this knowledge purposefully against other hPvPer and innately in PuGs. Therein lies the problem ... only we have the knowledge.

(Please be civil.)

While not a bad idea to start a thread on tactics i note that you have not actually offered any advice to those who read the thread hoping for some insight.

Archived Post 01-24-2011 01:18 PM

How fast can a carrier re-spawn BoP's?

My suugestion is to only shoot the pets if you've proven that the carrier pilot can stay alive - there are plenty of carriers that blow up pretty quickly.

In an arena match, shooting pets may de-claw the carrier, but it does not advance the score one whit.

Archived Post 01-24-2011 01:24 PM

Quote:

While not a bad idea to start a thread on tactics i note that you have not actually offered any advice to those who read the thread hoping for some insight.
Yes. That will raise hopes that are unfulfilled.

I am also not sure anymore that Pet > Carrier. Yes, you can deal with the Spam, but if you kill the Carrier, you get rid of the Spawn and the Carrier.

Unfortunately, I have mostly PuG experience, but if you can get your random team of unknowns to work together at least somewhat, chewing through a Carrier is not that hard. You basically want at least one Subnucleonic Beam at some point to ensure that the Carrier has a maximum time of vulnerability, and then you want an Escort that inflicts massive damage at close range.

There are probably millions of things that can happen to ruin this "plan", but in any given match, only a small number of those "counters" will be there.

In the end, Escorts always seem a great counter to Carriers. Either they Scatter-Volley or Beam Fire At Will the pets, or they Rapid-Fire and Beam Overload the Carrier.

Archived Post 01-24-2011 01:39 PM

Going for the Carrier can work too, especially with the upcoming changes to Carriers, but as of now, Carriers have Sci ship shields, Cruiser hull and have LT CMD Eng with CMD Sci. A very tanky setup, especially with an Engineer in one.


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