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Archived Post 07-04-2011 09:13 PM

My issues with the PVP..
 
Now, instead of trying to post my thoughts in about 10 different threads and even possibly raising some from the dead.. I felt I'd just make one thread to voice my thoughts on the various parts of the PVP game as a whole.

Let's start off with the sorest part of the game for me right now...

Unbalanced Sci powers..

Science powers are actually the more unbalanced powers in the game. Why? Because they can be buffed by alot more then any Tactical or Engineering Skill in the game. I mean sure most powers and such can be buffed with Consoles, and Traits, but Science powers can also be buffed by a third peice of the game's technology, Deflectors. And to me that is where Science powers seem way more powerful then almost all the other powers in the game at times. Sure they don't always do the most damage, but perhaps that is the reason that powers like Scramble Sensors, Science Fleet, Charged Particle Burst, and Tachyeon Beam get such use these days. Imagine what would happen if you could do what you can do for Science powers to Tactical powers.. or Engineering powers...

There are currently 2 Sci powers that are, in my opinion, way out of balance. At least where the game is concerned. And those powers are Scramble Sensors, and Subnucleonic Beam. Both are balanced when in PVE. Like everything in this game.

Scramble Sensors. Originally was an interesting power. It wasn't very useful because it just didn't work as intended. Then.. they fixed that. Scramble sensors is supposed to do what it does. And honestly I have no qualms with what it's supposed to do. How ever, there are a few things that I feel are broken with Scramble Sensors.. Version 3 Scramble Sensors, and Version 2 (Fully specced) can cause Evasive maneuvers to misfire. Version 3 Scramble Sensors and Version 2 (Fully Specced) will cause you to, while targeting some one, randomly throw the power your trying to use, on a different, untargeted target. Because of the second part, it can be next to impossible to reliably clear the power with Science team. And that just feels wrong.

SNB. Originally it was broken and over powered. It would set everything into a cool down, and strip all buffs on the target. Before that I don't recall it's effect. As I do recall it going through 2 fixes to what we have now. And it does have a counter... Sort of.. You can clear it's timer cool down effect. How ever, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING protects against it's ability strip power. Not even a Sci team applied before it is fired. Now I'm all for SNB being used as a two fold power. But to not even get stopped by Sci team, the power that can clear it's secondary, and in my opinion second reason for using it, is some what silly.

Those are two science powers I have issues with when it comes to offensive powers. Now to move on to Team powers.. Science Team, Tactical Team, and Engineering Team..

Science team. Originally, the power lasted quite some time. I believe the original duration was 15 seconds. It gave the shield heal it gives now. It was given the ability to clear some skills. And it had a Shield Resistance buff. It's cool down was also different. The Resistance buff was removed, and it's Duration was dropped to 5 Seconds. Personally, I think that was fine for Science Team 1. But the other two Science Teams I think should have been given different cool downs, and even more powerful defensive effects. Science team 2 should last for perhaps 7 seconds. And maybe even give a VERY SMALL Shield Resitance buff. Make it abit more useful then just as a quick shield heal, Science abilty buff, and Science power clear. Then Give Science Team 3 a 10 Second duration, and again slightly higher Shield resistance Buff. Once again nothing too silly.. But enough to help keep shields strong. It could have made it a great Shield heal power instead of just a defensive clear power. I mean sure you can use Science team 3 to spot heal shields. And it does a nice amount of recovery to the target. But it just isnt' as useful as other powers that fit better in it's extremly useful Lt Cmd slot. Not to mention it shares cool downs with Engi team, and Tactical Teams..

Engineering Team. Personally, I like Engineering team the way it is now, with the exception of it's Duration of it's Engineering buff. Once again I think, like Science Team, it should be changed so that Engi team 2 is a 7 second Duration, and Engi Team 3 is a 10 second duration.

Tactical Team. Hmm, where to begin? Tactical Team 1 has become the Staple in EVERYONE's defensive stratigy the moment they gave it the new auto disperse shield effect. And dont' get me wrong, I love the effect it's self. But where I feel they did wrong was just being universal with the Duration of it's effect. As I've seen in another thread, I agree that once again it's Team effect should also be changed from 10 Seconds to all, to a 5 second, 7 Second, and 10 Second modification to the duration of it's effect.

All team Abilities. Another thing that bothers me, is that the team abilities don't work in a scaling set up as defenses vs powers they are ment to defend against. For example, why does a Tactical team 1 clear a Fire on my Mark 3? Or why can't Science team 3 actually defend against SNB 3's buff strip? This just feels wrong. Orgiinally I think they were supposed to place more of a "chance" for the lower tier Team powers to do just that. But either it got implimented then secretly removed, or it just got pushed to the side. Either way it has always been something that has bothered me.

Healing and Resistances. This is an area that always feels like maybe there is too much of it. Or at least it's too easy to get to a point where a ship like an Escort or a Raider can become nearly unstoppable by them selves. Not to mention that lately it has become more important to have shield resists. Everything about the healing in space feels wrong. Feels too fast. Ships can recover from 1% to full shields and 100% hull in the blink of an eye. Become invincable. And this isn't with more then 2 players helping each other. And while I have nothing against team tactics. It just bothers me when 2 ships, and I'm not refering to 2 Cruisers, can make themselves invincible while still putting out enough damage to be a threat to the field.

The Garumba vs The Galaxy X. This is one of the few things that ticks me off, and yes it's about PVP because the Galaxy X was actually given a buff, while the Garumba was, like all Klingon ships, left wanting. The Garumba is a cool ship. It has interesting concept plausabilities. But it's just not as up to par as nearly every other ship, especially the Galaxy X. And I'm not crying sour grapes because the Galaxy X can cloak, and the Garumba can't. My issues are with how the Galaxy X can just fire it's Lance with no issue beyond the ship's slow turn rate, while the Garumba has to actually first charge it's Javelin.. and then it has to charge up before fireing? Really? It makes that power nearly completely useless in comparisson. I mean sure you can fire the Javelin more often then the Lance, how ever it's just not comparable how the Galaxy X is such a better ship with its Lance. And then there's the fact that the Garumba is an Escort, while the Galaxy X is a Cruiser. An Escort can't sit there as long as a Cruiser can, even if that Escort is a fleet escort. At least not with out being an Engineer. But then again an Engineer does that to all ships..

Open PVP. For now, we only have 2 Open PVP zones. Otha and Ker'rat (Where Feds are concerned) 4 If you count the 2 that the Klingons have in their sectors. Yet.. isn't there supposed to be a WAR going on between both sides? Or has that been forgotten already? It just boggles my mind how there wasn't a more stream lined Open PVP in Sector space. Yet here we are.. And let's not forget, Ker'rat, while alot of fun to fly around in, is also the buggiest zone in the game. It's had the SAME bugs since the game was LAUNCHED. Sure they are working on giving us more Open PVP areas. But those areas are ones you actually have to find. When personally the ENTIRE NEUTRAL ZONE should be one big War zone!

Fed vs Fed. This was a nail in the coffin for the Fed vs Klingon que sytem. Klingons don't really want to fight each other. We'd prefer to face the Federation, the group that we are supposed to be at war with. How ever, because it was necessary to make it eaiser for the Federation to get their PVP dailies done, they had to impliment Fed vs Fed. And so now, with the lack of Klingon focus, Klingon side is becoming more and more desolate. Where FvK doesn't "pop" nearly as often as FvF.

Klingon vs Klingon. This feels like it's a part of the PVP that just has been completely ignored. And not because it can't be fun. But because there is just no story, or even feeling of a reason to bother with this part of the game.. At all. The War with the Federation is WAY more important then Klingon vs Klingon combat. Yet, we have it. Honestly, Fed vs Fed and Klingon Vs Klingon should both just be removed and left up to Private Queues for such things now that we have those options.

Archived Post 07-04-2011 09:14 PM

Continued..
 
No ability to team with the enemy. When the STFs were released, it was promised that we'd recieve, at least in Gamma Orionis, the ability to team for STFs as Klingons and Feds together in order to help complete those STFs, and it could have been the open door to just Team vs Team Queues. Where you could que up and get teamed with both Klingons and Feds in 5v5's or more. I would love to be in a Capture and Hold and have both Fed and Klingon allies at times.

Lack of PVP maps. There are so few PVP maps. While PVE can just be created on a player's whim via the Foundry. I don't see why it couldn't be possible to first choose "PVE or PVP?" before making a map. Then actually create either an Arena or Capture and Hold like map. It doesn't even have to be possible to be a Public system. But one that can only be done through Private matches. Just doesn't seem right to me. Not to mention we are being promised more PVP Maps. And while that will be great, I'm hoping it's more then just ground. I'd love to see some new Space areas to fly into. Because as it stands now, it gets a little dull.

Ground vs Space. Ground has a way it was designed that makes sense. I enjoy what they did with the ground combat in tribble for the new Season 4 where they are trying to give it a FPS option. I think that's a good route to go and gives more interesting ways to PVP in an MMO. Space is fun, but it has soo many things that just don't feel like they are the way they should have been, in my opinion. One of them is the Axis of flight. You can't just point your ship up or down while flying and hit some one from below or above. This REALLY hurts Cannons because they rely on an arc that is nearly impossible to aim properly when some one "spirals" up on Z. Then there's the fact that there is a Ceiling and a Floor, where we're basically flying around in Giant Cubes of space. Why not, instead, just make it so that when ever we reach the "edge" of the limits, we just find our selves at the other side? Why not if we hit the floor, we start to come from the Ceiling and continue to go down. Or if we hit the Ceiling, we start to come up from the floor? I mean sure it's not perfect, but it would then give more space then we have now.

Developer contact with the PVP community. Now, while I am greatful that we have some one who voices how things are going in the PVP World, it would be just AWESOME if we had more. Heck, if the entire development team not only PVPed, but even held Monthly tournaments, and even a championship type League themselves, where the winning team was given Energy credits, in game special Bridge offiers, or even something out of game. It was just make the PVP in this game so much more vibrant. And it might even help bring some of the imbalances to light faster and maybe even fixed sooner..

Well, I think I've said enough.. If you've gotten this far, awesome. Thanks for reading it. Leave your opinions below, for good or ill, but try to not say something that would threaten the safety of the thread because I'd rather it stay open and be what it is, a place to say how you feel about PVP as a whole, not just one general area. And weither you share my opinions or not, who knows what can happen when we do voice what our issues are with PVP..

Archived Post 07-04-2011 11:02 PM

I agree with everything you have said. And you did it with 100% less sarcasm than I would have done it. PvP in this game is all about who can bring the most science. Science cancels all which means rock, paper, scissors is broken. I would be in favor of cryptic shutting space PvP down adn revamping it from the ground up and actually listening to the community when they put it on tribble. My personal issues is this I am 1 hair away from selling out and joining one of those 3 lettered fleets that uses the bread and butter builds which involves 3-4 sci ships/Capts. But I think I would rather taser my computer than sell out. I almost want to say premades victims of their own success because most people that pug do not and will not pay them for the most part.

Archived Post 07-04-2011 11:37 PM

Well said, Kilawpilath, and I agree with your sentiments. I think one of the key things that you touched upon, is the communication aspect... Ranging from dealing with bugs and exploits, to implementing new (or modified) abilities, through the Tribble testing process, it often feels that the PvP Community is either forgotten or ignored.

Take, for example, when FAW got 'modified' to its current form, despite significant and conclusive evidence and testing that indicated a problem with the power's output, those concerns were blatantly ignored (to be fair, most likely due to the impending and subsequent departure of snix), and caused the First Exodus from PvP.

For another example, the Exploit That Shall Not Be Named and the unleashing of the Holy Banhammer of Antioch, back in February/early March...

In both cases, a breakdown (or absence) of communication between the Devs and Community led to an even bigger breakdown in PvP participation, to the point now, where a dwindling population in the Queues, has reached life support status... It is a crying shame, because there is so much inherent potential in the game's PvP system (as many newcomers quickly discover, if they are willing to earn their stripes, often at the hands of the expert PvP Fleets), but without adequate communication, both of intentions and expectations, between the Devs and Community, all the potential in the universe will not translate into results...

What would it take to fix things? I don't know that there is a definitive answer, and many have become so jaded, due to the past, that it is difficult to see a clear way forward... Having JHeinig stopping in and dropping updates has been a small step in the right direction, but his attention is, of necessity, focused elsewhere (he works with the PvP Community on a voluntary basis), and so many issues (the ongoing FAW situation, Scramble Sensors 3, SNB, etc.) continue to drive even the loyal, long-time players, who truly form the foundation of the PvP Community, away from the Queues... And that is the biggest shame of all...

-Big Red

Archived Post 07-04-2011 11:46 PM

good post kil.

Archived Post 07-05-2011 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kilawpilath (Post 3624419)
Unbalanced Sci powers..

Science powers are actually the more unbalanced powers in the game. Why? Because they can be buffed by alot more then any Tactical or Engineering Skill in the game. I mean sure most powers and such can be buffed with Consoles, and Traits, but Science powers can also be buffed by a third peice of the game's technology, Deflectors. And to me that is where Science powers seem way more powerful then almost all the other powers in the game at times. Sure they don't always do the most damage, but perhaps that is the reason that powers like Scramble Sensors, Science Fleet, Charged Particle Burst, and Tachyeon Beam get such use these days. Imagine what would happen if you could do what you can do for Science powers to Tactical powers.. or Engineering powers...

Here I tend to disagree (I'm primary a sci/sci player so I might be biased). Why? Because what you get from a deflector is more than balanced with the increased need of skill points for your powers. Tac/Eng ships have 3 sci powers at most. So if they use synergy effects they have to skill 3-4 skills (eg HE/PH/TB). Sci ships on the other hand have to use points for their sci skills and furthermore for weap/eng skill which (most of the time) have an additional passive effect. Besides that I don't think sci skills are that unbalanced until they are used by several people at once... but that's (for me) just another way of focus fire. ;)

Quote:

There are currently 2 Sci powers that are, in my opinion, way out of balance. At least where the game is concerned. And those powers are Scramble Sensors, and Subnucleonic Beam. Both are balanced when in PVE. Like everything in this game.

Scramble Sensors. Originally was an interesting power. It wasn't very useful because it just didn't work as intended. Then.. they fixed that. Scramble sensors is supposed to do what it does. And honestly I have no qualms with what it's supposed to do. How ever, there are a few things that I feel are broken with Scramble Sensors.. Version 3 Scramble Sensors, and Version 2 (Fully specced) can cause Evasive maneuvers to misfire. Version 3 Scramble Sensors and Version 2 (Fully Specced) will cause you to, while targeting some one, randomly throw the power your trying to use, on a different, untargeted target. Because of the second part, it can be next to impossible to reliably clear the power with Science team. And that just feels wrong.
Here I agree... a bit. Yes ST or even team powers in general if under the effect of SS should always benefit yourself. So you won't be able to use them on anyone else but you have a safe way to clear debuffs on yourself. Else SS would be ok if the bugs get fixed (EM misfire).


Quote:

SNB. Originally it was broken and over powered. It would set everything into a cool down, and strip all buffs on the target. Before that I don't recall it's effect. As I do recall it going through 2 fixes to what we have now. And it does have a counter... Sort of.. You can clear it's timer cool down effect. How ever, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING protects against it's ability strip power. Not even a Sci team applied before it is fired. Now I'm all for SNB being used as a two fold power. But to not even get stopped by Sci team, the power that can clear it's secondary, and in my opinion second reason for using it, is some what silly.
SNB is currently the only reliable way to kill res stacking. So for now it is a necessary evil. Also it needs a bit of timing to be really effective. That said I can live with a ST3 able to protect against a SNB1-3 but with the short duration of ST I doubt it will have any real influence. Just wait 5 sec with it.

Quote:

Those are two science powers I have issues with when it comes to offensive powers. Now to move on to Team powers.. Science Team, Tactical Team, and Engineering Team..
[...]
It totally agree. The higher versions don't make much sense and the duration of the +skill effect is too short.

Quote:

All team Abilities. Another thing that bothers me, is that the team abilities don't work in a scaling set up as defenses vs powers they are ment to defend against. For example, why does a Tactical team 1 clear a Fire on my Mark 3? Or why can't Science team 3 actually defend against SNB 3's buff strip? This just feels wrong. Orgiinally I think they were supposed to place more of a "chance" for the lower tier Team powers to do just that. But either it got implimented then secretly removed, or it just got pushed to the side. Either way it has always been something that has bothered me.
Yes I agree it would make sense but how will a sci-ship defend against a FoMM3 without TT3? I fear we will get some more balance problems.

Quote:

Healing and Resistances. This is an area that always feels like maybe there is too much of it. Or at least it's too easy to get to a point where a ship like an Escort or a Raider can become nearly unstoppable by them selves. Not to mention that lately it has become more important to have shield resists. Everything about the healing in space feels wrong. Feels too fast. Ships can recover from 1% to full shields and 100% hull in the blink of an eye. Become invincable. And this isn't with more then 2 players helping each other. And while I have nothing against team tactics. It just bothers me when 2 ships, and I'm not refering to 2 Cruisers, can make themselves invincible while still putting out enough damage to be a threat to the field.
Actually I don't think resistance is the problem but healing. Keep resistance as it is maybe even increase it a bit but change the heals to HoT. That way you will lose the yo-yo effect while still being able to survive focused fire for some time. But because of the missing heal you better use the time to get away.

Quote:

Open PVP. For now, we only have 2 Open PVP zones. Otha and Ker'rat (Where Feds are concerned) 4 If you count the 2 that the Klingons have in their sectors. Yet.. isn't there supposed to be a WAR going on between both sides? Or has that been forgotten already? It just boggles my mind how there wasn't a more stream lined Open PVP in Sector space. Yet here we are.. And let's not forget, Ker'rat, while alot of fun to fly around in, is also the buggiest zone in the game. It's had the SAME bugs since the game was LAUNCHED. Sure they are working on giving us more Open PVP areas. But those areas are ones you actually have to find. When personally the ENTIRE NEUTRAL ZONE should be one big War zone!
I would love to have Eta Eridani as one big OPvP zone... but only consensual. I don't want to have to first fight dozens of klingons (exaggerating) just to be able to make my dailys.

Quote:

Klingon vs Klingon. This feels like it's a part of the PVP that just has been completely ignored. And not because it can't be fun. But because there is just no story, or even feeling of a reason to bother with this part of the game.. At all. The War with the Federation is WAY more important then Klingon vs Klingon combat. Yet, we have it. Honestly, Fed vs Fed and Klingon Vs Klingon should both just be removed and left up to Private Queues for such things now that we have those options.
I can't speak for anyone else but I hated KvK because everyone was cloaked and it took ages before someone made the first step.

Quote:

No ability to team with the enemy. When the STFs were released, it was promised that we'd recieve, at least in Gamma Orionis, the ability to team for STFs as Klingons and Feds together in order to help complete those STFs, and it could have been the open door to just Team vs Team Queues. Where you could que up and get teamed with both Klingons and Feds in 5v5's or more. I would love to be in a Capture and Hold and have both Fed and Klingon allies at times.
This is supposed to change with S4... at least for STFs.

Quote:

Developer contact with the PVP community. Now, while I am greatful that we have some one who voices how things are going in the PVP World, it would be just AWESOME if we had more. Heck, if the entire development team not only PVPed, but even held Monthly tournaments, and even a championship type League themselves, where the winning team was given Energy credits, in game special Bridge offiers, or even something out of game. It was just make the PVP in this game so much more vibrant. And it might even help bring some of the imbalances to light faster and maybe even fixed sooner..
Some PvDev event would be great. Until then I think it would already help to have a post were the Devs ask about our opinion on different powers BEFORE they change them. Some kind of "power of the month" post.

Archived Post 07-05-2011 01:29 AM

Quote:

All team Abilities. Another thing that bothers me, is that the team abilities don't work in a scaling set up as defenses vs powers they are ment to defend against. For example, why does a Tactical team 1 clear a Fire on my Mark 3? Or why can't Science team 3 actually defend against SNB 3's buff strip? This just feels wrong. Orgiinally I think they were supposed to place more of a "chance" for the lower tier Team powers to do just that. But either it got implimented then secretly removed, or it just got pushed to the side. Either way it has always been something that has bothered me.
THis is something relatively simply to explain - if it was like you suggested, these powers wouldn't be any counter at all anymore. Because only Escort Captains could hope to clear a typical Tactical Captain debuff, and only Science Vessel Captains could hope to clear a Science Captain debuff.

What they might be able to do is - if these powers can work as preventive counters, the duration might be increased for higher tiers. Or alternatively, if these powers work as counters, their could be a delay (based on rank comparisions) until the power is cleared. But if it doesn'T clear at all, the debuff clearance would quickly become entirely useless for the majority of situations.

Archived Post 07-05-2011 01:52 AM

Nice to see Kilo going to the Dark Side. ;)

But many of the things you pointed out is why I personally believe Cryptic needs to start Space Combat from scratch, because it has really gotten stupid with the Heal Builds, Dependance on Buffs and Resitances, and of course the Sci Spam. It's so bad it has made Elite Difficulty "easy". Some of us can even solo the space parts of the Cure and Infected (the current versions on the Holodeck).

Pretty much space has been trivailized and Cryptic knows it. Hopefully they will start their reinvisioning of space after they get the new Ground Combat all straightened out.

Archived Post 07-05-2011 02:44 AM

Woah, some is envy of phaser lance. The fact it does miss 80% kinda balances the "easy" usage, especially with galaxy like turn rate.

Otherwise i agree with killa...

Archived Post 07-05-2011 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azurian (Post 3624608)
Nice to see Kilo going to the Dark Side. ;)

But many of the things you pointed out is why I personally believe Cryptic needs to start Space Combat from scratch, because it has really gotten stupid with the Heal Builds, Dependance on Buffs and Resitances, and of course the Sci Spam. It's so bad it has made Elite Difficulty "easy". Some of us can even solo the space parts of the Cure and Infected (the current versions on the Holodeck).

Pretty much space has been trivailized and Cryptic knows it. Hopefully they will start their reinvisioning of space after they get the new Ground Combat all straightened out.

Well, if the devs ever were gonna to remove or lower most healing/repair powers then i hope that every ships would see their basic hull and shield hp being tripled.

I never thought that it made much sense to see capital ships going down after just a few shots taken at them. While it did happen in real-life history to see battleships juggernaut like the Yamato getting sunk kinda fast, i really prefer to see the battleships more like what the Bismarck was where extended battles on the line had to be fought to take it down and persistant attacks of stinging bees ( airplanes and torpedoes ).

It always saddens me when i see a Star Cruiser blow away in the first 3 seconds of an engagement. Capital ships should be resilient.


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