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-   -   Tier 5 special power balance issue (http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=227344)

Archived Post 08-07-2011 12:23 PM

Tier 5 special power balance issue
 
Am I the only who have noticed a balance issue with the original T5 vessels in that they don't have any special ability? Thus, players tend to favor the newer C-store ships and T5 refits(defiant, galaxy, intrepid). Considering I hate complaining without being constructive here is my proposal to resolve this issue.

Each of these could be offered in the C-store as refits, or as separate devices make though crafting, or as new consoles. I would prefer to see them as bound devices as this will add some much needed relevance to crafting, and does not force people to change their console layouts. You could port them to other ships if you wanted as well. Maybe only allowing one - two power devices per-player.

All of these powers have a root in lore and cannon and I wrote while reading memory alpha pages. I based these off what makes sense for a mixed class (science/tactical or tactical/engineering) vessel, and what would be of most useful for the future territory control game(open pvp), fleet actions, STF. Also, these just sound fun to use. :D

-----------------------------------
Advanced Escort - multvecter assault mode

Fleet Escort - Concussive Isokinetic cannon 90 degree ark 4000 kinetic damage, -2500 all shields, 2 km AOE sphere; white/blue partical, fast moving (can not be shot down) 7 min cooldown;
+10 effectiveness on Hirogen; + 10 effectiveness on Borg; + 4000 kinetic damage, -2500 all shields to structures (turrets, shipyards, starbases)

Assault Cruiser- Colamite reflector- +1500 all shields; +10 shied power; reduced shield damage 20%; deflects torpedoes and energy weapons back at ship targeting user. 10 min cooldown

Star Cruser - Shield Inversion Beam- Absorbs shield power from target enemy and adds it to ships shield
to target - 2000 all shields; to self +2000 all shields ; 90 degree arh; 5 min cooldown

Luna - Remodulating Shield Disapater - to target -3000 all shields ; and AOE 1.5 km range - 20 all power levels, disable 2 sec; slow 10 sec; to self +1000 shields; +5 shield power; +5 engine power 90 degree arh; 10 min cooldown

Deep Space Science Vessel - Modulate Feet Shield Harmonics - to all allies in 3 km range +1500 all shields; +20 shields power; reduced shields damage 20%; over 30 seconds



Later
Typhoon Class Battleship or Battlecruiser

Gravimetric shockwave warhead - detonates making a gravimetric shear for 15,000 kinetic damage over 5 km sphere AOE; 5 km AOE disable 3 seconds, -3.0 repel for .5 sec
must have quantum, trasphasic, chronation or tricobolt torpedoes equipped; 30% shield penetration
global cooldown with torpedoes for 60 seconds; 20 min cooldown;
+ 10,000 kinetic damage to structures (turrets, shipyards, starbases) Effects magnified * number of GSWs used in 5 km range. (yay teamwork!)
Neutralizes omega molecules.

This could be introduced with omega molecule storyline in a featured episode series along with the playable Typhoon class.



What do you all think?

Archived Post 08-09-2011 02:02 PM

When the Prometheus MVAM console was offered in the C-store, it looked like it might be a solution. This was something that could be applied to the existing RA ship, which would give it a special ability, making it competitive with VA ships and C-store bought RA ships. I really looked forward to the release, especially since I saw the potential to craft special consoles instead of buying them, and to release additional consoles for the other RA ships.

Unfortunately, when it came out, it was a whole new ship, with a new BO layout. While this was nice, it meant you were effectively buying a whole new ship for the ability to use the original ship as an alternative. And I admit it, I had hoped it would be available at RA level. There are C-store ships available at RA that have special abilities. It would be nice if the Prometheus had one as well.

OTOH, the precedent being set, it is certainly possible now for a VA level Sovereign, Luna, Hermes or one of the other RA level ships to get a VA version that includes a console usable in the original ship. While we might have to wait some time for such a ship, and might see more popular choices like the Sovereign being given priority, eventually there is some potential.

However, the Oberth and Rhode Island seem to suggest another direction. While the Prometheus's MVAM was only available to the Prometheus, both of these ships have consoles that are available to EVERY other ship in the game. This leads me to believe that perhaps the C-store may eventually be glutted with consoles that are not specific to any one ship, as with MVAM, but instead will become universal. You can certainly put such a console in a Sovereign, and that WOULD give it a special power. But that would not give it any preferred status over any other ship that can also make use of exactly the same console.

All in all, I don't think I find any of this very encouraging.

Archived Post 08-10-2011 12:41 PM

Frankly, I don't find the special abilities to be particularly useful; Perhaps the MVAM is, but I never used it, I mainly use Science Vessels.

The Ablative armor on the Intrepid and the Tachyon detection grid on the Nebula are cool, but their usefulness can be questioned: if you use shields resists and hull heals properly, you hardly need the former; As a matter of fact if you use the ablative armor as a last stand defence it ends up putting you at risk, since it takes a second or so to deploy and during that time your shields are down. More than enough to blow you up if you are low on hull.
The Tachyon grid detects ships within a certain distance, and most BOP pilots are smart enough not to get withing detection distance unless they are decloacking and attacking immediately.

What really kills the "RA" ships is BO slots layout and the fact that they have a different skill set to invest points in, while the retrofit ones all fall into a single pool.
So if a character is specc'd in the RSV, he/she can't fly a DSSV efficiently, nor a Retrofit; If he/she is spec'd in the retrofit, however, he/she can fly the Intrepid, the Nebula and the D'Kyr, covering essentially the entire spectrum for the selected class (at least as far as science vessels are concerned).

Archived Post 08-10-2011 01:17 PM

I don't in general find anything wrong with the RA ships as such.

They are well balanced against the original retrofits, however i find the new ones have become a bit too powerful.
The original retrofits all lost something compared to other T5 ships for their ability.
However the Excelsior shot that balance to pieces and pretty much became the most overpowered ship in the game and the superior tactical choice over the assault cruiser.

Archived Post 08-10-2011 07:01 PM

I agree that it would be nice for the "original" T5 ships to get some sort of bonus like that. Especially ships like the DSSV that have been more or less outclassed by the VA ships (Intrepid > DSSV, imo).

Archived Post 08-10-2011 07:26 PM

+1 The DSSV really needs some love.

Archived Post 08-10-2011 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cosmic_One (Post 3693075)
+1 The DSSV really needs some love.

Due to all the things I've seen in canon episodes of Voyager, I really think the DSSV needs to stay as outclassed by the Intrepid as the Imperial and Avenger are by the Lakota.

;)

Sorry guys but the C-Store ships are supposed to be better. That's the point of the C-Store. As I've been told in many many threads.

:)

Archived Post 08-11-2011 02:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by superchum (Post 3693104)
Due to all the things I've seen in canon episodes of Voyager, I really think the DSSV needs to stay as outclassed by the Intrepid as the Imperial and Avenger are by the Lakota.

;)

Sorry guys but the C-Store ships are supposed to be better. That's the point of the C-Store. As I've been told in many many threads.

:)

It's all been admitted to in the latest STOKED interview too.
http://www.justin.tv/tarantatsuuchi/b/291996032
The New Rhode Island IS a superior ship to the in game Nova as an incentive to get you to buy it.
This is not by accident, it was how it was designed.
The new console is to offer new tactical options, that are not offered in game.
The Prometheus is a stronger ship than the tactical ships offered for free on the same tier in game.

I remember you and I hitting the same brick wall when we asked for a buff for the Assault cruiser. Because we felt that an older ship shouldn't out class the Federation's latest cruiser. People lined up to tell us we were crazy and that the Sovereign was actually better at tanking, so it was just as good as the Excelsior.
We were crazy to think that the Excelsior was more powerful. that it offered a superior tactical layout to the assault cruiser, a newer ship.
But the truth is out now, this WAS as intentional then, as it was now, it was purposefully made more powerful than the Sovereign as an incentive to get you to purchase it.
Except in this case, the special ability was not combat related, so a more powerful tactical layout, not offered in any other cruiser in the game was offered instead. :p
The writings on the wall and the practice has been admitted. The situation's been repeated time and time again now.

Hopefully the Ambassador when it comes out beats the pants off em all!

I bet if the Ambassador comes out in the store after the Enterprise F, it will kick it's butt too.

Archived Post 08-11-2011 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by superchum (Post 3693104)
Due to all the things I've seen in canon episodes of Voyager, I really think the DSSV needs to stay as outclassed by the Intrepid as the Imperial and Avenger are by the Lakota.

If you can point to an episode of Voyager where a DSSV fights and loses to an Intrepid I might agree with you. But then I like Star Trek and its canon - even though it doesn't always make sense. :)

Archived Post 08-11-2011 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sarcasticgeek (Post 3687473)
Am I the only who have noticed a balance issue with the original T5 vessels in that they don't have any special ability? Thus, players tend to favor the newer C-store ships and T5 refits(defiant, galaxy, intrepid). Considering I hate complaining without being constructive here is my proposal to resolve this issue.

Each of these could be offered in the C-store as refits, or as separate devices make though crafting, or as new consoles. I would prefer to see them as bound devices as this will add some much needed relevance to crafting, and does not force people to change their console layouts. You could port them to other ships if you wanted as well. Maybe only allowing one - two power devices per-player.

All of these powers have a root in lore and cannon and I wrote while reading memory alpha pages. I based these off what makes sense for a mixed class (science/tactical or tactical/engineering) vessel, and what would be of most useful for the future territory control game(open pvp), fleet actions, STF. Also, these just sound fun to use. :D

-----------------------------------
Advanced Escort - multvecter assault mode

Fleet Escort - Concussive Isokinetic cannon 90 degree ark 4000 kinetic damage, -2500 all shields, 2 km AOE sphere; white/blue partical, fast moving (can not be shot down) 7 min cooldown;
+10 effectiveness on Hirogen; + 10 effectiveness on Borg; + 4000 kinetic damage, -2500 all shields to structures (turrets, shipyards, starbases)

Assault Cruiser- Colamite reflector- +1500 all shields; +10 shied power; reduced shield damage 20%; deflects torpedoes and energy weapons back at ship targeting user. 10 min cooldown

Star Cruser - Shield Inversion Beam- Absorbs shield power from target enemy and adds it to ships shield
to target - 2000 all shields; to self +2000 all shields ; 90 degree arh; 5 min cooldown

Luna - Remodulating Shield Disapater - to target -3000 all shields ; and AOE 1.5 km range - 20 all power levels, disable 2 sec; slow 10 sec; to self +1000 shields; +5 shield power; +5 engine power 90 degree arh; 10 min cooldown

Deep Space Science Vessel - Modulate Feet Shield Harmonics - to all allies in 3 km range +1500 all shields; +20 shields power; reduced shields damage 20%; over 30 seconds



Later
Typhoon Class Battleship or Battlecruiser

Gravimetric shockwave warhead - detonates making a gravimetric shear for 15,000 kinetic damage over 5 km sphere AOE; 5 km AOE disable 3 seconds, -3.0 repel for .5 sec
must have quantum, trasphasic, chronation or tricobolt torpedoes equipped; 30% shield penetration
global cooldown with torpedoes for 60 seconds; 20 min cooldown;
+ 10,000 kinetic damage to structures (turrets, shipyards, starbases) Effects magnified * number of GSWs used in 5 km range. (yay teamwork!)
Neutralizes omega molecules.

This could be introduced with omega molecule storyline in a featured episode series along with the playable Typhoon class.



What do you all think?

First of all:
There are 2 reasons why people use the Retrofit ships more then the usual ones:
a. They simply believe they are better because they get them later/harder, wich simply isnt true. The Retrofits pay their price for their special abilitys, wich in some cases (saucer sepperation for example) are nice but useless gimiks.
b. they rate style over substance, something I would do, too (I'd consider the Prometheus the ship that fits MY playstyle better, but its simly doesnt look like a Defaint^^) After all, the Refits are the beloved ships from the series, and a lot of STAR TREK fans want STAR TREK vessels, not random Cryptic designs. Thats a fact Cryptic realized to late thats why the major part of "usual" ships are random designs and the "better" designs are refits and C-Store ships (well that people would pay for an Exclesior in C-Store but most likely NOT for a Star Cruiser MAY play its role in that too)

Most Engs that rate substance over style I know, for example, use those unbelievable ugly Star Cruisers wich do not have special abilitys....

Another aspect is that Crytic declared a while ago that they are more going for Consoles instead of special ability, including making current special abilitys removable und usable for some other ships.
I personaly could very well imagine a Souvereign with saucer sepperation (although THAT ability was given as an example for not removable-abilitys), or a Fleet Escort with cloak or a luna class with that ablative armor ect ect ect.


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