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Archived Post 08-29-2011 04:48 PM

Destructable Torpedoes
 
I ran a search regarding destructable torpedo threads... Some made suggestions about making them indestructable, but I think that the latter defeats the point of giving such torps slower projectile speeds. However, simply making them "vanish" upon being hit also doesn't make much sense either... After all, what normally happens when you shoot at an armed warhead? The answer: armed warheads will usually detonate when they hit a target or are hit by enemy weapon fire.

From a canon perspective, STO destructable torpedoes should follow the above principle as well. Energy weapons which successfully hit destructable torpedoes should normally cause premature warhead detonation. Other factors like critical hits or phaser and polaron weapon procs could neutralize warhead triggers, but this should not occur 100% of the time like it does now. To summarize, I suggest that destructable torpedoes detonate when they suffer normal energy weapon hits. However, if they sustain a critical hit or phaser/polaron proc-hit, then they should just vanish like they do now

Destructable torpdoes should also have a 10km maximum travel distance, then automatically detonate once they reach this limit. UPDATE: This suggestion isn't needed from a pvp perspective. Scratch this idea.

Lastly, since explosions are not supposed to be selective, perhaps heavy torpedoes like Tricobalts should be changed to deal damage to all nearby targets (to discourage point-blank TCD launches). UPDATE: scratch this suggestion as well... Too mant logistics issues! :p

Everthing else above should still be OK. :)
All thoughts/suggestions/comments are welcomed.

Archived Post 08-29-2011 05:17 PM

amen. tricos should splode when shot

/signed x 1000

Archived Post 08-29-2011 05:45 PM

I could be wrong (none of the sources at my immediate disposal are very clear), but I believe that from a canon perspective, plasma torpedoes are just balls of plasma energy being held in place by a sort of force field or casing and not actual torpedoes like Photons and Quantums. If shooting it even were to have an effect, it would just cause the plasma to dissipate and not explode (the information sources I read state that the primary damage of a Plasma torpedo is caused by the plasma enveloping the target, causing an implosion, not by warhead detonation).

As to the Tricobalt Device, it's not entirely clear how this device functions, so it's uncertain what effect shooting it would have. Also, if you add in the potential for a "friendly fire" explosion, you run into major problems with other AoE effects like FAW hitting the device as soon as it leaves the launch tube. TCDs are already very situational in PvP, this would hinder them even further.

I'm not certain on how to argue Torpedo range. In canon, torpedoes generally have longer range than energy weapons (a Mk XXV Photon Torpedo has a tactical range of 4.05 million km, a phaser array has a maximum tactical range of 300 thousand km). However, Plasma torpedoes in particular are stated to have very short range before they dissipate. In the end, I think this would have to remain as-is to preserve balance (anything other than Photon, Quantum, and Tricobalt already tend to be seen as too weak for general use). Besides, if the Torpedo has already traveled 10km, why haven't you already shot it down?

Torpedoes could potentially be selective, using shield modulation, warhead programming, shaped charges, or a number of other possibilities. But even if that isn't the case, if you're going to argue that Torpedoes could potentially hit the user or friendly targets, then you'd also have to argue that every AoE power in the game could potentially do the same. Why would Torpedoes be subject to friendly fire but not Gravity Well? I can't think of very many MMOs where AoE attacks strike friendly targets except in very special circumstances.

Archived Post 08-29-2011 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShinobiDragoon (Post 3725029)
I could be wrong (none of the sources at my immediate disposal are very clear), but I believe that from a canon perspective, plasma torpedoes are just balls of plasma energy being held in place by a sort of force field or casing and not actual torpedoes like Photons and Quantums. If shooting it even were to have an effect, it would just cause the plasma to dissipate and not explode (the information sources I read state that the primary damage of a Plasma torpedo is caused by the plasma enveloping the target, causing an implosion, not by warhead detonation).

Plasma would not simply dissipate due to conservation of matter -- it has to go somewhere once the magnetic envelope holding it together is breached. Think of it like a balloon... once it pops, its contents will be ejected in all directions due to its high density plasma being suddenly being released in the vacuum of space. This would still result in small radius plasma torpedo explosion, probably with diminished damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShinobiDragoon (Post 3725029)
As to the Tricobalt Device, it's not entirely clear how this device functions, so it's uncertain what effect shooting it would have. Also, if you add in the potential for a "friendly fire" explosion, you run into major problems with other AoE effects like FAW hitting the device as soon as it leaves the launch tube. TCDs are already very situational in PvP, this would hinder them even further.

...<SNIP>...

Torpedoes could potentially be selective, using shield modulation, warhead programming, shaped charges, or a number of other possibilities. But even if that isn't the case, if you're going to argue that Torpedoes could potentially hit the user or friendly targets, then you'd also have to argue that every AoE power in the game could potentially do the same. Why would Torpedoes be subject to friendly fire but not Gravity Well? I can't think of very many MMOs where AoE attacks strike friendly targets except in very special circumstances.

The friendly fire-suggestion was just a means of discouraging point-blank torpedo shots, but you are correct, this could cause game damage logistics issues. TCD's could still be launched at point blank range, and any weapon fire causing immediate detonation would still result in the energy weapon-shooting ship being caught in the TCD's blast radius. If anything, this would strengthen the TCD now that shooting it down does not provide complete safety from its AoE burst effect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShinobiDragoon (Post 3725029)
I'm not certain on how to argue Torpedo range. In canon, torpedoes generally have longer range than energy weapons (a Mk XXV Photon Torpedo has a tactical range of 4.05 million km, a phaser array has a maximum tactical range of 300 thousand km). However, Plasma torpedoes in particular are stated to have very short range before they dissipate. In the end, I think this would have to remain as-is to preserve balance (anything other than Photon, Quantum, and Tricobalt already tend to be seen as too weak for general use). Besides, if the Torpedo has already traveled 10km, why haven't you already shot it down?

The suggested 10km range was made to allow torpedo warheads to eventually detonate instead of simply vanishing. After all, each torpedo is armed with an active warhead. These do not simply vanish unless disarmed.

Anyway, TY for contributing to this thread... you definitely raised some valid points.

Archived Post 08-29-2011 08:34 PM

A Romulan captain once defeated two ships without firing a single energy shot at either ships. He defeated them using a photonic shockwave. So how did he create this shockwave? He fired a torpedo between the two ships and then detonated it by shooting it with an energy blast. (cookie to whoever guesses what series, episode, and person to state this correctly)

I think it's a valid tactic and would add a little more dynamic to torpedo weapons. If anyone has played Unreal Tournement, they would be familiar with the Shock Rifle. Basically, it had 2 firing modes; it either shot an energy beam normally or a charged energy ball as its secondary attack. But you know you could fire the energy ball at someone and right as it got near them, you could shoot it with the energy beam and make it explode, in case they tried to dodge it. The same principle could work in this game as well.

In this game, it would be a 3rd torpedo option. Call it...Shockwave Torpedo (for lack of better name). It functions just as the Photonic Shockwave skill works now. Upon detonation, creates a photonic shockwave that disables ANY ship for 2 sec at Rank 1 (AOE blast range can be improved by Torpedo skills, say up to 1-3 km?). For gamesake purposes, this skill works with all torpedo types.

Sounds good, but such an awesome, overpowered ability must have drawbacks right? Read on.

One, forces you to spend skillpoints into a torpedo skill, unless you are fine with just base AOE range (3km blast radius?). But that's only if you want waste an ability slot to get it (I'm thinking Rank 1 starts at Ensign so other Captains can use atleast Rank 2). That means giving up something you might not want to.

Two, is a dumbfire weapon. Like Torpedo Spread, it does not lock onto the target. So if they move, it will not follow them.

Three, has a TTL (time to live). Once x amount of time has passed, it just disappears. That means in order to initiate the PSW blast, torpedo must be targetted and fired upon. Which brings me to another drawback, the enemy will also be able to lock onto it and shoot it, so it could end up backfiring on you. In order to minimize this, the torpedo will travel at normal torpedo speeds. Also to minimize having it blown up in your own face, the Shockwave torpedo will look like a normal torpedo. So it keeps players on their toes and constantly checking to see if that normal looking torpedo can be targetted or not. Why?

Four, it's target indiscriminate. That means, it will affect friendly ships and the shooter themselves if they are not careful. Since the torpedo does absolutely no damage and only disables ships (minus propulsion systems) it can afford to be that double-edged, tactical skill. And with a semi-large blast radius, you'd have to think about how/when to fire it, unlike just popping HY or TS and firing them as soon as the cooldowns are up. Speaking of cooldowns...

...I'm thinking it would be a semi-medium, to long cooldown (1.5-3min?) to keep it from being spammed to all high hell. If you think about it, long cooldowns could also solve the FAW/SS paradox.

So why choose a PSW torpedo? It's canon :p (it was a Romulan captain so I have to assume it was a plasma torpedo. They never go into detail about topedo type though.) Anyways, I'm just trying to show how this torpedo mechanic can be added into the game and not be overpowered. For fun, use Tractor Beam Repulsors to quickly push it away from your ship and fly it into a nearby Fed/Kling ball and shoot it when within range. Or repulse it/tractor it back at the shooter :D

Archived Post 08-29-2011 09:01 PM

They'd better fix the damn tricobalt and soon. :C
I guess it is not any better with Plasma's @ HYT.

Cooldown problems, hit problems, not firing problems, you name it.

kthxbye

Archived Post 08-29-2011 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shar487
Plasma would not simply dissipate due to conservation of matter -- it has to go somewhere once the magnetic envelope holding it together is breached. Think of it like a balloon... once it pops, its contents will be ejected in all directions due to its high density plasma being suddenly being released in the vacuum of space. This would still result in small radius plasma torpedo explosion, probably with diminished damage.

Fair enough, I was more adding that to say that a Plasma Torpedo doesn't really explode, the warhead on it just breaks the "container" open. If shooting it down meant a short-lived effect similar to Eject Warp Plasma, then that would be fine and make some sense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shar487
The friendly fire-suggestion was just a means of discouraging point-blank torpedo shots, but you are correct, this could cause game damage logistics issues. TCD's could still be launched at point blank range, and any weapon fire causing immediate detonation would still result in the energy weapon-shooting ship being caught in the TCD's blast radius. If anything, this would strengthen the TCD now that shooting it down does not provide complete safety from its AoE burst effect.

I still think this would cause more issues than it would empower the TCD. Also, while this isn't necessarily true of Tricobalts in terms of canon, a Photon Torpedo requires at least 1.2 seconds after launch before it is effectively "armed" (matter/antimatter reaction is ready). In order to prevent other AoEs from just detonating a TCD just as it's launched, maybe a warhead timer could be introduced with this. This kind of thing even exists today with naval vessel torpedoes, and can be overridden for close range (basically for game-play, ignore the timer if it impacts the target).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shar487
The suggested 10km range was made to allow torpedo warheads to eventually detonate instead of simply vanishing. After all, each torpedo is armed with an active warhead. These do not simply vanish unless disarmed.

I was under the impression that the 10km range only applied to the initial launch, and torpedoes pursued the target until impact/miss, but I'll admit I haven't messed around much with Plasma/TCDs so I'm uncertain. In any case, Plasma torpedoes do dissipate (based on info from Memory Alpha, from TOS Balance of Terror). TCDs being used as ship-to-ship weapons is already silly (they're capable of subspace distortions under certain conditions), so I don't see a problem with an autodestruct at this point. I'm sure the Klingon players would prefer a torpedo autodestructed once the target was under full cloak as well. :P

Archived Post 08-30-2011 05:17 AM

I think destructible torpedos need a "grace period" where they can't be hit with FAW, since the ammount of FAW has rendered them a bit useless except in one on one engagements and brief FAW free windows. I like the idea of them exploding when hit, but I think the damage should still only effect enemies, or they'd be popping as soon as they left the tube and doing more damage to the user.

Archived Post 08-30-2011 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ebeneezergoode
I think destructible torpedos need a "grace period" where they can't be hit with FAW, since the ammount of FAW has rendered them a bit useless except in one on one engagements and brief FAW free windows. I like the idea of them exploding when hit, but I think the damage should still only effect enemies, or they'd be popping as soon as they left the tube and doing more damage to the user.

Such a grace-period would be best applied on the FAW code instead of the torpedo... Perhaps a minimum 2 seconds weapon lock time per small target.

Other options to consider:

-A huge base defense rating value for destructable torpedoes due to their extremely small size - they should be very difficult to hit.
-reduced burst damage if detonated via weapon fire to balance for pvp

Regardless of what is said, the current destructable torpedo-vanishing scheme does not work. Heavy torpedo armed warheads should have a high detonation chance when hit by weapons fire.

Archived Post 08-30-2011 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShinobiDragoon (Post 3725244)
...<SNIP>...
I still think this would cause more issues than it would empower the TCD. Also, while this isn't necessarily true of Tricobalts in terms of canon, a Photon Torpedo requires at least 1.2 seconds after launch before it is effectively "armed" (matter/antimatter reaction is ready). In order to prevent other AoEs from just detonating a TCD just as it's launched, maybe a warhead timer could be introduced with this. This kind of thing even exists today with naval vessel torpedoes, and can be overridden for close range (basically for game-play, ignore the timer if it impacts the target).

You already convinced me in your initial post... No friendly fire needed. :)

Quote:

I was under the impression that the 10km range only applied to the initial launch, and torpedoes pursued the target until impact/miss, but I'll admit I haven't messed around much with Plasma/TCDs so I'm uncertain. In any case, Plasma torpedoes do dissipate (based on info from Memory Alpha, from TOS Balance of Terror). TCDs being used as ship-to-ship weapons is already silly (they're capable of subspace distortions under certain conditions), so I don't see a problem with an autodestruct at this point. I'm sure the Klingon players would prefer a torpedo autodestructed once the target was under full cloak as well. :P
True... subspace damaging weapons are supposed to be banned under several treaties as well. :)

And yes, plasma torpedoes do dissipate as they travel due to their magnetic bubble gradually expanding as it weakens. However, plasma torpedo kinetic damage potential will be near full strength for the first few seconds after launch.

In a nut-shell, torpedo shoot down detonations should be present in game. This will help destructable torpedoes regain value in a battle-field dominated by FAW-spam.

EDIT: if you want to see destructable torpedo detonations when the projectile is destroyed mid-flight, then please sign this thread to show the devs that you are interested in this idea. Otherwise this thread will quickly be forgotten.


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