Star Trek Online

Star Trek Online (http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/index.php)
-   Klingon Gameplay (http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/forumdisplay.php?f=166)
-   -   Klingons are the good guys (http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=239310)

Archived Post 11-02-2011 05:43 AM

Klingons are the good guys
 
I just got through rereading the time-line and if I understand it correctly the Klingons are actually the good guys in this game. The galactic conflict centers around the Klingons discovering the Undine have infiltrated high positions in the various governments of the galaxy and their actions to remove them. They discover the Gorn have been infiltrated and plan an invasion to remove the Undine influence. They ask the Federation to help them in this endeavor reminding the UFP of the conditions of the Khitomer Accords. The Feds refuse calling the Klingons rash. Suspecting the UFP itself maybe tainted by Undine influence the Klingons withdraw from the KA and elicit help from the Orions to invade the Gorn.

The Gorn are defeated and the Undine are removed but the Klingons don't subjugate the Gorn but instead give control of their government back to them. Proving that there is more to the Klingons than the barbarians they are perceived as. The Klingons are not waging a war of conquest but a war to remove the vile Undine and save this part of the galaxy from their devious influence.

The war with the UFP is being fought for the same reason the Gorn War was fought, to remove the Undine. If the Klingons win then the Undine are defeated and I see the Klingons treating the UFP similar to the way they treated the Gorn.

So my question is if we're the good guys why is STO still making us wear the black hat? We are still treated and refferred to as the bad guys. As the good guys we should be getting equal attention from STO that Star Fleet receives.

Archived Post 11-02-2011 10:09 AM

We won't becaue this is a human playerbase and in their minds

Federation = humans (which is a terracentrism perpetuated in the shows beyond reason) = the good guys.
Not being Federation automatically makes you the bad guy no matter what you do.

Archived Post 11-02-2011 10:19 AM

You, my friend are decieving yourself. You expect Klingons to act with compasion much like Humans. You are dreadfully mistaken. They respect power and strenght. Most Klingons view humans and the Federation as weak and cowardly. They respect the Gorn because the Gorn value strenght and prowless in combat. They distain the Romulans for being cowardly and killing their enemies from hiding using poison, assanination and other such acts where one's enemy does not see the face of the one who defeats them. Klingons rarely ever take prisoners as they few it as dishonorable to be caotured alive. For a gross over simplification, take a look at the Samurai culture of Feudal Japan. It may change your perspective on some things.

Archived Post 11-03-2011 05:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mister_dee
We won't becaue this is a human playerbase and in their minds

Federation = humans (which is a terracentrism perpetuated in the shows beyond reason) = the good guys.
Not being Federation automatically makes you the bad guy no matter what you do.

Humans Only Club.
A joke that has more truth than they can even admit to themselves.

Archived Post 11-03-2011 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeilCell (Post 3842458)
You, my friend are decieving yourself. You expect Klingons to act with compasion much like Humans. You are dreadfully mistaken. They respect power and strenght. Most Klingons view humans and the Federation as weak and cowardly. They respect the Gorn because the Gorn value strenght and prowless in combat. They distain the Romulans for being cowardly and killing their enemies from hiding using poison, assanination and other such acts where one's enemy does not see the face of the one who defeats them. Klingons rarely ever take prisoners as they few it as dishonorable to be caotured alive. For a gross over simplification, take a look at the Samurai culture of Feudal Japan. It may change your perspective on some things.

Im not deluding myself in any way, they will extend respect to the UFP for the same reasons they did the Gorn. The UFP and Star Fleet have for years went toe to toe with the Empire and have habitually came out on top of these engagements. I'd say that was a suffiecient show of strength. The Gorn on the other hand, as far as I can tell by reading through canon material have never fought an all War with any race until the Klingons invaded, this maybe why they were overcome so easily. Actually I just got through reading the hsitory of Minamoto Yoritomo, Japan's 1st warrior ruler. In it Minamoto showed compassion many times to his foes. So if you're gonna pick a human race to compare the Klingons to pick the Mongols who also had a strict honor code. At least the Mongols conquered most of the known world, Japan and the samuria never truly battled a foreign power other than each other. And I dont count the 2 times Kublai Khan tried to invade Japan and typhoons sunk the Mongol ships, butchering half drowned troops isn't a battle. The Japanese called these typhoons kamikaze, the divine wind, because it saved their backsides. If Japan would've been landlocked with China they would have been vassals to the Mongol Emperor.

Archived Post 11-03-2011 06:54 AM

Bad guys or good guys, well..

At this point I would say there aren’t any bad or good guys. Except the Undine, Borg, Iconians, Devidians, Breen and Fek’lhr of course.

The Federation sees itself as the good Samaritan yet seems to attempt to enforce its viewpoint on everyone else. Usually because they claim to have the moral high ground. The truth is the Federation follows the doctrine of "might makes right" though they claim to respect other races and their prime directive tells them not to intervene in internal matters. They still meddle as soon as they can think of an excuse. As for being non-violent and non-aggressive, this might once have been true, but the last decades of history and the multitude of wars have left the Federation jaded and far more militarized in its procedures than it used to be.

The Klingons claim to be on a crusade to restore the Empire to former glory and rid the world of Undine infiltration. While this all sounds fine the bottom line is the Klingons are using the age old excuse of being saviors to cover up a greed for territorial expansion. This is very obvious in their thrusts towards Romulan and Federation space. They are using this excuse to satisfy political hunger. The bottom line is they are a warlike race and their code of honor seems to be somewhat flexible depending on individual captains and situations. Their concept of honor can be used as much as an excuse as for enforcing personal conduct and loyalties.

As for Romulans and Cardassians they are both politically scheming militaristic and utilitarian with partially nihilistic attitudes. To put it bluntly, if they see you as an enemy they will be willing to sacrifice half of everything just to have a chance of getting at you. And where the Romulans scheme, the Cardassians plot. The difference is the Romulans are even more dastardly and convoluted in their scheming while Cardassians are somewhat more direct.

Archived Post 11-03-2011 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagnumStar
The UFP and Star Fleet have for years went toe to toe with the Empire and have habitually came out on top of these engagements.

Actually, I would say the Klingons usually come out on top, unless Sisco, Picard or Kirk are involved.

The Federation was originally saved from the Klingons by the mysterious Organians and the Organian treaty. Whenever there have been large scale conflict and not single incidents the Empire has seemed to hold the upper hand. Good excamples are the alternate universe where Tasha Yar hadn't died and the Ambassador class Enterprise hadn't been destroyed. The Klingon Empire was winning the war and by Picard's assesment the Federation could only last a couple of more weeks or months at most.

Or the short war between the Klingons and Federation before the Dominion war, which weren't in an alternate time line. While Deep Space 9 was held and the Klingons withdrew from that engagment, most of the time they speak of the conflict and reports of the war, systems are lost and things are going less than good.

In Voyager, when we look back to the time of Captain Hikaru Zulu and the Excelsior, it certainly seems a K'tinga is a good match for it. The K'tinga that attacks the Voyager easily gets the Voyager's shields down below 50% before fire is returned, and that is despite it being more than a hundred years older.

Not to argue the point. You are Right. The Klingons do respect the Federation for their strengths. They are worthy advesaries. But the Federation doesn't usually come out on top.

Archived Post 11-03-2011 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khern (Post 3843906)
Bad guys or good guys, well..

At this point I would say there aren’t any bad or good guys. Except the Undine, Borg, Iconians, Devidians, Breen and Fek’lhr of course.

The Federation sees itself as the good Samaritan yet seems to attempt to enforce its viewpoint on everyone else. Usually because they claim to have the moral high ground. The truth is the Federation follows the doctrine of "might makes right" though they claim to respect other races and their prime directive tells them not to intervene in internal matters. They still meddle as soon as they can think of an excuse. As for being non-violent and non-aggressive, this might once have been true, but the last decades of history and the multitude of wars have left the Federation jaded and far more militarized in its procedures than it used to be.

The Klingons claim to be on a crusade to restore the Empire to former glory and rid the world of Undine infiltration. While this all sounds fine the bottom line is the Klingons are using the age old excuse of being saviors to cover up a greed for territorial expansion. This is very obvious in their thrusts towards Romulan and Federation space. They are using this excuse to satisfy political hunger. The bottom line is they are a warlike race and their code of honor seems to be somewhat flexible depending on individual captains and situations. Their concept of honor can be used as much as an excuse as for enforcing personal conduct and loyalties.

As for Romulans and Cardassians they are both politically scheming militaristic and utilitarian with partially nihilistic attitudes. To put it bluntly, if they see you as an enemy they will be willing to sacrifice half of everything just to have a chance of getting at you. And where the Romulans scheme, the Cardassians plot. The difference is the Romulans are even more dastardly and convoluted in their scheming while Cardassians are somewhat more direct.

This is the best and most accurate description of the various factions goals that I have read so far. You could add though the average Klingon and UFP citizen more than likely believe in the purity of these goals, it is the leaders who are using them as an excuse. And you could say the average Romulan and Cardassian are not involved with the plots their governments plan but are instead pawns of them.

Archived Post 11-03-2011 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khern (Post 3843920)
Actually, I would say the Klingons usually come out on top, unless Sisco, Picard or Kirk are involved.

The Federation was originally saved from the Klingons by the myserious Organians and the Organian treaty. Whenever there have been large scale conflict and not single incidents the Empire has seemed to hold the upper hand. Good excamples are the alternate universe where Tasha Yar hadn't died and the Ambassador class Enterprise hadn't been destroyed. The Klingon Empire was winning the war and by Picard's assesment the Federation could only last a couple of more weeks or months at most.

Or the short war between the Klingons and Federation before the Dominion war, which weren't in an alternate time line. While Deep Space 9 was held and the Klingons withdrew from that engagments, most of the time they speek of the conflict and reports of the war, systems are lost and things are going less than good.

In Voyager, when we look back to the time of Captain Hikaru Zulu and the Excelsior, it certainly seems a K'tinga is a good match for it. The K'tinga that attacks the Voyager easily gets the Voyager's shields down below 50% before fire is returned, and that is despite it being more than a hundred years older.


Not to argue the point. You are Right. The Klingons do respect the Federation for their strengths. They are worthy advesaries. But the Federation doesn't usually come out on top.

You are riight in the single engagements the Klingons tend to take a thumping if Kirk, Picard, or Sisco are at the helm. And you are correct that the Klingons do win the larger scale engagements. I stand corrected, thanks for taking the time to reply so I could learn this.

Archived Post 11-03-2011 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagnumStar
This is the best and most accurate description of the various factions goals that I have read so far. You could add though the average Klingon and UFP citizen more than likely believe in the purity of these goals, it is the leaders who are using them as an excuse. And you could say the average Romulan and Cardassian are not involved with the plots their governments plan but are instead pawns of them.

You are right.

It is the political leaders that pull the strings. There certainly do exist truly honorable warriors in the Empire and I am sure the Federation still got its fair share of visionaries and old-school Federation captains as well. The current state of the galaxy must be blamed on the leaders of the various factions. If not all the blame, then 80% of it.


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:29 PM.