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Archived Post 01-23-2012 03:45 AM

Escort-class rants (this is Feedback after all)
 
Not much has really changed between subscription times and f2p.

edit:
please correct me if I used wrong Escort related terms/abilites, thanks :)

It is not just BOP but escorts in general. I doubt this will ever be looked at judging the amount of time that went by.

Whining is one thing, but putting debriefing padds on the table facts enough. Right now, this is not about me wanting to win, but I see a frequent observation in every round I've played; both Fed vs Fed and Fed vs Klingon.

I don't think I need to post screenshots.
Just quick infos.

Flew all three ships class types.
Been in tons of pvp rounds.
Tried various specs and specifically builds that are to save my buddies from instant death (Which fails practically all the time) as well as "ALL-IN" toys. So far, SCI has done the job better.
I'm very certain there are better players out there than I, but you can't defy personal experiences. Especially for playing STO and other MMOGs for a long time.

So, this is an Escort Rant, but I will keep it civil and constructive-critism style.

STO PVP is considered "Hard and Fast" over the Trekkie "Slow and Uboot-Stragetic" regarding the World of ******** PvP/arcade mechanics. This is not bad, but it is easy to get out of hand.

I am bearing in mind that "Game Balance" can never be achieved as there is always somebody to complain about something, but something is not right here even with the Hard-n-Fast aspect.

Let me toss this in;
We know there is this stupid Rock/Scissors/Paper mentality that is supposed ot be the ultimate balance ever. This is nonsense in my eyes as STO pvp and the related ships are nowhere near what R/S/P is.

Generally it is said that escorts have to be fast and deadly because they are vulnerable and fragile.
This brings me to the first point however. Then again, I cannot prove anymore who said things have to be like this -- So I am just giving my experience.


//Escorts are "fragile" and need to be fast and deadly
Escorts do not have the fragile glasscannon aspect.
Escorts can cut through through any ship like a, wait for it(!) , plasmawelder through cardassian butter. ;P
No seriously.
Dealing facemelt damage is one thing, but there are way too many aspects that surpass not only the Trek feel but the game as it is.


//Escorts can flee from battle any time.
Any Escort can flee with lightspeed thanks to Evasive Manuever mechanics.



//Attack Patterns Omega -- Big matter
I forgot if it was really AP:Omega or the others, but it should be Omega specifically, in this case.
But one of them grants major resistances and some 5 other bonuses. Imo, this needs to be looked into.The game and its escorts already have a ton of ways to survive, but these patterns grant a lot more than other SCI/Engi abilities.
Needs to be seriously looked into.

THe last thing I read was that AP Omega grants:
- Damage
- Dmg Resists
- Turn Rate
- Flightspeed
- Immun to disable/movement-imparing
- +Defense value

I'm sure it is somewhere still like that.
Those are a lot of bonuses.

I don't want to whine, but I know why there is always this YOU CANNOT WIN factor.

And, sure, there are people who survive and do stuff in other ships.
But saying "I fly Cruiser/Sci and I have no problems" is nonsence to mention in this thread because I am referring to some 60 rounds across the last 6 months -- and i see the same thing happening.

When AP:Omega or whatsoever is active along with other abilities and borg procs, shooting on them just spams miss + two-digit dmg values... :D
Pretty much like shooting with a pistol on a Main Battle Tank.



//Escorts are damn versatile
BOPs have extreme versatility over FED escorts, but nevertheless both escorts surpass the standard ships in many aspects and fields.
At release times, it was not that extreme, but granted, the game had just left the development oven.



//Escort brings imbalance nonetheless
It all depends on the pilot, items, BOs. Yes.

But one thing is certain. I've seen some fun fights between SCI and Cruiser ships -- but as soon as an escort dropped by from my side, we instantly won. It was ridiculous, in my opinion.

//An Escort can HEAL, DAMAGE, SURVIVE better than any other ship in pvp
As an example, my last round.
I was testing different builds so my Assault Cruiser wasn't the smartest thing to fly in this round but I can still observe the following;

THis was Fed vs Fed
The Escort Player(s) on the enemy side dealt
about 1.1million in DMG
about 1.1million in HEAL
A LOT more than anybody else, I was even flying a healspec; but in the end, I was just deadweight with warp nacelles.

The escort captains were very skillful and hard to kill. Yes, they died too, but that was really when a possible "Getaway/CANT-DIE" ability was in cooldown. Other than that, they - or what I've confronted, the one escort, frequently could get away with it.

But regarding this, this example is just one of many I have seen.
At this state of the game that hadn't changed for an age, Escorts (whether FED or Klingon) surpass practically all the ships. I had 4 guys shooting at one escort and it was tanking like hell.

Regarding the 1mil HEAL/DMG part; the Borg Healprocs + Survivability just makes this ridiculous to fly any other shiptype until that is resolved.

Other occasions where I had offensive abilties etc always had escorts almost dying, then them getting away thanks to evasive manuevers + Ramming Speed getaway.
Sure, I can pursue, but I WILL not be able to keep up because they are simply faster.

Nevertheless. Let me cut to the chase.
Escorts deal more dmg, HEAL more, RESIST better than any other shiptype currently. AP: Omega is just only the start.


//Game Mechanics on DUAL HEAVY CANNONS and Weapon Power
Unlike beam weapons etc

Dual Heavy Cannons(DHCs) will only chew power away once its last shot is fired. Even with Rapid Fire,if you have the right BO powers, you can stay on 100w or above and always have 100% dmg. No dmg reduction like how I'd have to put up with when using beams. Actually, using beams is pretty much gimp.


//Borg Heal procs (not only escort related)

A bit more of rant than constructive critism here:
One side problem are the mandatory healsets; like the Borg set. You have a frequent procs that keep you alive. It is a joke, imo.
Ships at the brink of dying just heal all the way up. This is very possibly (and without Engineering Team II. or III if it exists) if you fire up a resist/hp buffing ability like AP:Omega + Reverse Shield Polarity.

This is not escort related but it is game breaking.
I thought I was playing STO and not World of Warcraftrek Online - that be a insult to the game and the developers :)!
Also, it does not take a Quantum Physicist to look at things like Attack Pattern: Omega.

It gives you about some 6 bonuses alone; 6 of which that are just survivabilty and "I CAN'T DIE/YOU CANT WIN" regarding the values. Yes, Escorts need to survive, but it is simple math in various Hard-n-Fast games similar to WoW that show the problem.
You have AP:Omega, then you Rapid Fire, Mark, then you have Healprocs from Borg sets, etc.


//Rant mode on
Right now, Escorts are pretty much FOTM and I'm surprised that I'm actually bothering with SCI and Cruiser myself. Also, anybody flying escort can freely feel a big epeen moment wih it. You will deal dmg and heal easily - and win.

THe only thing that is great about Free2Play is that I no longer have to pay for this.


But I'm reasonable.
The thing is that Escort doesn't need to have all these Iwin stuff.
- Without the Borg Heal Sets (imo should be removed at once)
- Without AP:Omega having so many intensive bonuses
- Without Evasive Manuevers granting a major speed bonus

, the game could have some interesting fights. But there are other things in the pvp world of STO that keep producing these current situations.
Unfortunately, there've been people in the community and above who see things otherwise. /shrugs

Anyhow, that's what I found I should toss in.


Also,
- The game also needs PERMANENT DMG mechanics, to hinder people from tanking forever. Be it beams or abilities.
Even in WoW, there is Wound Poison/Mortal Strike etc that debufss healing values (afaik, it does -25%)
- This game is too WoW than actually Trek. Right now, the game is "TOO MUCH Hard-n-Fast".


I am not calling to nerf everything that is just Escort related, but there is simply too many things that are game breaking across the board.
And people need to get off their high horses, too.

Archived Post 01-23-2012 04:22 AM

I am pretty sure there will be lots of people chiming in and saying "escorts are not OP", "escorts are the worst class" or even "learn to play", but I have to at least partially agree with what you say.

I noticed the same, lots of escorts dealing tons of damage and being as hard as a cruiser to crack; They are no glass cannons whatsoever.

If you ask me, the battle between two cruisers, two science vessels or a curiser vs science vessel is how it should really be; It involves tactics, thoughtful use of powers and some maneuvering too. Drop an escort in (especially the Defiant) and it becomes an insta-gank fest, ships whizzing and twirling around as if they where WW II fighter planes.

As simple as it is, some powers grant a little too much to certain escorts with no obvious downsides, although it is the whole system that should be rethought: when a console such as the +35% shields capacity becomes a necessity, because shields can be melted in one second flat, there's definitely something wrong in the calculations...

Archived Post 01-23-2012 05:06 AM

As much as I'd like to, I can't disagree. Somewhere along the way, escorts (and similar) pick up too many survival traits; while still having awesome damage potential (I say 'potential' because it does take skill to really make the most of it; I fly a Raptor on the Klink side, and I totally suck, so the ship alone does not a killer make).

At lower ranks, everyone knows to focus fire on the escorts as soon as they appear; because they'll just melt away. At higher ranks, that's usually only going to make them mad (again, assuming a skilled player).

Of course, I've always been of the opinion that there is too much emphasis on abilities and powers in this game anyway; so I could be biased. Much prefer PvP at lower ranks, when there aren't as many of them to play with.

Archived Post 01-23-2012 02:17 PM

"escorts are unkillable!" the lines of anyone that has clearly never seen a properly built cruiser. Or is completely ignoring the fact that said escorts are getting support from almost literally everyone else on their team in order to survive.

Escort pilots, that are noteworthy or want to become noteworthy get very good at maximising their ship's capabilities.

Cruiser captains not so much as by and large they just faceroll the keyboard through pve.

The few cruiser captains that are dedicated pvpers on the other hand, maximize their own durability, while still being able to properly support the Escorts who, when squared up against Sci ships, Escorts, and lastly enemy cruisers, need all the help they can get just to stay alive.
Said dedicated cruiser pvpers, are also, far and away more durable than even the best Escort captains, simply by virtue of having higher level commander engineering stations, and more support based abilities at their disposal.

Archived Post 01-23-2012 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mavairo
"escorts are unkillable!" the lines of anyone that has clearly never seen a properly built cruiser. Or is completely ignoring the fact that said escorts are getting support from almost literally everyone else on their team in order to survive.

Escort pilots, that are noteworthy or want to become noteworthy get very good at maximising their ship's capabilities.

Cruiser captains not so much as by and large they just faceroll the keyboard through pve.

The few cruiser captains that are dedicated pvpers on the other hand, maximize their own durability, while still being able to properly support the Escorts who, when squared up against Sci ships, Escorts, and lastly enemy cruisers, need all the help they can get just to stay alive.
Said dedicated cruiser pvpers, are also, far and away more durable than even the best Escort captains, simply by virtue of having higher level commander engineering stations, and more support based abilities at their disposal.

Preach, Mav! :)

Archived Post 01-23-2012 04:07 PM

um, seriously escorts cannot even penetrate a cruiser shields who knows what hes doing. An escort with 4200 + burst dps damage full alpha strike cannot kill an engineer in a cruiser, properly specced who reacts in time. Tactical Team + any empts power and if needed throw in RSF. tactical team takes your shields and turns a 12k facing into 48k. Which has resistance according to amount of shield power you have allocated plus the above mentioned skills.

ill say even a tac in a cruiser can do this. Hell an escort can tank an escort. Tactical team/empts II........again lots of shield HP and resists combined.

So no escorts cannot rip anything apart. And since your argument starts there, the rest is flawed.

Escorts have got to deal with the fact that their damage powers are high ranking BO slots, LTCMDR and CMDR level mostly, and the fact that the up time on your greatest damaging skill CRF is only 10 seconds. Compare that to empts at 30 seconds, etc etc list goes on.

the fact is damage has been neglected and healing has been boosted across the board for all ships.

just please stop.

Archived Post 01-23-2012 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mavairo
"escorts are unkillable!" the lines of anyone that has clearly never seen a properly built cruiser. Or is completely ignoring the fact that said escorts are getting support from almost literally everyone else on their team in order to survive.

Escort pilots, that are noteworthy or want to become noteworthy get very good at maximising their ship's capabilities.

Cruiser captains not so much as by and large they just faceroll the keyboard through pve.

The few cruiser captains that are dedicated pvpers on the other hand, maximize their own durability, while still being able to properly support the Escorts who, when squared up against Sci ships, Escorts, and lastly enemy cruisers, need all the help they can get just to stay alive.
Said dedicated cruiser pvpers, are also, far and away more durable than even the best Escort captains, simply by virtue of having higher level commander engineering stations, and more support based abilities at their disposal.

Pretty much everyone I see post in the PvP forum agrees that DPS and heals/resists are not well balanced against each other (especially when cross healing is involved). Pretty much everyone here also seems to agree that current endgame gear is too heavy on defence. Yet everyone gets so defensive when a particular ship type is singled out. :rolleyes:

Just think of it as a part of the larger problem.

Remember your earlier level games. You would sometimes run into seemingly unsinkable cruisers there too; but it wasn't such an issue because you would just switch targets, and hope you could hurt the escorts and science ships faster than the cruisers could heal them. This is where it all goes wrong at Admiral ranks. Everybody has the capacity to keep themselves alive long enough that the chances of over-pressuring a team's healers are slim to none; sure, they need to know what they are doing, but plenty of people do (especially in the VA tier).

The number of times I've watched a Defiant-R withstand focused fire long enough to kill a couple of his attackers (only to disengage for just a couple of seconds, then come right back at darned near full everything) beggars belief.

Archived Post 01-24-2012 02:07 AM

Basically since season 2, the defensive side became in STO became extremely strong. Healing, resistances, it was all very effective.

Most of a ship's basic "resilience" simply comes from its shield resistance. The exact hit points don't matter as much. And EPtS1 and EPtS2 do a perfect job at that already. But on the converse - without these, ships blow up extremely fast. So kinda the "tie-breaker" was always Science - it allowed to dispel or ignore resistances and negate healing.

But it seems that the game has seen a lot of defensive additions tot he game and less on the offense side.

The fundamental issue to me always seems to me that the extremes on the healing and the damage sides are just too high.

I am not convinced that Escorts are necessarily "OP" or unbeatable or whatever. But I would not be surprised if the amount of healing now available even via low level BOs and the right gear is sufficient to make the Escort one of the best choices to pick - since they can combine all t his defense with a good offense.
But I would suspect that Science Vessels + Captains can still be a bit nastier. (And most likely more frustrating, being "controlled" sucks.)

Archived Post 01-24-2012 02:50 AM

I luckily neither need to justify much nor really quote everything so far posted as some are going too deep into assumption-mode. I will only comment.

I've placed things on the table as well as a simple viewpoint and experience posting.


And calm down. This is the feedback area, guys. Not Cryptic's roundtable. Nothing will really happen.


I understand all the points and I've also been able to tank escorts too, just to put that straight. Yet, I see no real point as to why there has to be so many advantages over other aspects, that's all. Those who fail to see that just need to plant their feet on the ground. I am also just shedding light on a lot of cookie cutters.


I can also start a thread about SCI and CRUISER too.
I know people are defensive because their career vessel is being discussed.


And as an example; I've yet to receive an answer on why an ability like AP:Omega and others have to grant so many advantages compared to others.
The Dual Heavy Cannon-Energy Consumption part is also questionable when compared to other weapon systems. Some fail to see the circumstance about that too, but I am not the one to be adamant about that either :)

And some do need to chill. It is not like this thread is going to do anything.


I agree on the part about people becoming adamant whenever things are singled out. That is normal and everybody is free to post - so am I currently.

I would also like to see more quoting and response than just drawing a line and saying "Escorts are unkillable, l2p". Have to put some more word into it or stop posting yourself.

On the side note, the other problem is that the game evolves on single things, rather than evolving things across the board; this is especially the case when it comes to BO powers (and I am referring to apples + apples, not apples + oranges, for the irritated people here).

Imo, escort could stay as they are, but then the other BO powers and vessel classes need to be looked into and be brought on par, be cause the majority of them are not.
Also, STO has a lot weight on cookie cutters and mustHave's ; using other builds and/or single abilities will gimp you.


I don't want to perpetuate on online player psychology as it was commented in other postings already, but there is no real skill in tacteam either, yet it is a damn necessity in all occasions. But everybody knows: Anybody without tacteam is likely deemed to have a hard life.
And just to say: with EP2Shields mentioned many times, we can agree that one must always have that, RSP, TacTeam and several other mustHaves -- if you are a ENGI captain, even better. If you don't have a portion of fotm/cookie cutters, you are an easy kill. That is pretty much pointing out to what I mean.


And I've yet to see if our new players in f2p mode will enjoy this and if you think my initial posting is that vibrant, you'll have a heck of a time posting anti-whine. :)


Regarding "lowbie PvP isn't the madness like VA bracket", that also sheds light on certain things. It is common to hear "Lowbie PvP > End game PvP" in every popular mmog, it is a syndrome.
I disagree with "unkillable cruisers" in lowbie pvp though. As you said, depends on teamwork.
The same goes for "unkillable escorts" in VA pvp, but it requires a lot more than teamwork.

Another thing.
Another indirect problem is what the whining did to CC. It is possible to remove everything with sciteam 1 mostly (I think even completely).
I sense people willing to say things about CC being overpowered back then. Now, hold your horses, I lived through that Viral Matrix spam era too. It was pretty much the same problem like in typical WoW-ish mmoGs; namely "Stun Locking".


So CC got nerfed to the ground, which I'm fine with somewhere, but now there are sci abiltiies as well that are too weak if you put them against other abilities (should it be escort/tac abilties or not).


UTILITY of BO powers is also a problem if one were to just count up the granted bonuses.
Howwever, people would easily call "apples vs oranges", so that won't be easy to do.

ON THE OTHER HAND :), people still rely on photonic shockwave. It is not a bad ability, onthe contrary. Especially when it comes to the "unkillable", Photonic Shockwave becomes an important matter.

Also, one has to be certain about what we're talking about. We can't be bouncing between lowbie pvp where things aren't as bad and VA pvp.


One thing I am not taking into account in this thread is pay2win aspects of the game.

Archived Post 01-24-2012 03:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully (Post 3966629)
Basically since season 2, the defensive side became in STO became extremely strong. Healing, resistances, it was all very effective.

Most of a ship's basic "resilience" simply comes from its shield resistance. The exact hit points don't matter as much. And EPtS1 and EPtS2 do a perfect job at that already. But on the converse - without these, ships blow up extremely fast. So kinda the "tie-breaker" was always Science - it allowed to dispel or ignore resistances and negate healing.

But it seems that the game has seen a lot of defensive additions tot he game and less on the offense side.

The fundamental issue to me always seems to me that the extremes on the healing and the damage sides are just too high.

I am not convinced that Escorts are necessarily "OP" or unbeatable or whatever. But I would not be surprised if the amount of healing now available even via low level BOs and the right gear is sufficient to make the Escort one of the best choices to pick - since they can combine all t his defense with a good offense.
But I would suspect that Science Vessels + Captains can still be a bit nastier. (And most likely more frustrating, being "controlled" sucks.)

Preach, Mustrum! :)

Could not take this posting in account as I was writing when it was posted.

Before people have their fingers twitching on saying Mustrum's quote is not supporting my initial opening thread, chill.

For me, it is actually just the healing stuff that is making things unnecessarily boring.

I stated and know well enough by now that Escorts can still be killed. Toot's "Uh duuuuh" youtube video would be appropriate.


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