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-   -   The Borg: They need to Adapt (http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=396491)

hasukurobi 09-24-2012 12:18 AM

The Borg: They need to Adapt
 
I recently did a run in a War Zone with my LvL 8 Fed in her NX Class Enterprise remake... I killed a Borg CUBE by myself with just my 3 weapons and 3 BOFF abilities with little problem. You also start the game killing the Borg and even when they get properly difficult they are still very unborglike in their actions.

Devs of STO, if you have any control left over the game then I beg of you to go watch First Contact, Best of Both Worlds & Q Who from TNG, and refresh your memory of the Borg from Voyager. Take a good hard look at how the Borg really work and who they really are.


The Borg on the ground are a joke. I do not mean they die too easily because the Borg often were easy to kill for a few moments. I mean they do not act at ALL like the Borg. The Borg do not just go around shooting everything and trying to kill people, their main objective is to Assimilate and improve themselves. They should walk slowly towards you and attempt to assimilate you. They should not all be infront of you but instead they should come out of every nook and cranny and sneak up on you. They should be a terror that requires you to keep some folks looking in every direction to stop them. Fail to shoot them down or remodulate in time and they grab you, stop you from doing anything, and assimilate you. If your medical person cannot cure the Assimilation then you go and try to Assimilate your friends who have to gun you down and revive you if they want to get you back all while avoiding being assimilated themselves.

Make the Borg the Terrifying monster they were in First Contact.


In Space you make an even BIGGER Mockery of them. According to Voyager a Borg Cube is 28 Cubic Kilometers in Size... THAT IS HUGE! It also has a crew of 130,000 Drones. Believe those numbers or not as you will but these Borg Cubes usually take a handful of ships to defeat. One little pathetic Light Cruiser would be instantly carved apart by a Borg Cube like in Wolf 359.

You should ONLY fight the Borg in the end game and NEVER be able to kill them with just one ship. They should be very persistent in locking down your ship with their tractor beam, blasting your shields off with shield drainers, and assimilating your ship and crew or cutting the ship apart or otherwise destroying it. (Imagine a Ship having been Assimilated going against its friends in an STF! Better pack a Tyken's Rift and knock out their power!) They should have a bit of trouble focusing on more than one ship at a time making group tactics against a single Cube viable but lone fights against them should be utterly impossible scenarios.


There is an argument that Star Fleet has developed counters to the Borg that allow them to be this effective. That is fine but the Borg undoubtedly have not been sitting around and doing nothing all this time. They would have been out there assimilating new species, gaining new technologies, and adapting to the new tricks of the Federation and others eventually as well. You really underestimate one of the nastiest and most terrifying "Bad Guys" ever created. I just ask that you give them their edge back and make them the way they should be from Canon so we can enjoy the terror for ourselves.

foundrelic 09-24-2012 12:30 AM

Cure Space Elite random PUG.


THere's your borg challenge.

baudl 09-24-2012 01:08 AM

also consider, that there is canon and there is gameplay...both do not get along very well. Elite stfs are still a challenge to the untrained, and thats where you meet the real borg.

i could however imagine a crytaline entitiy like fleet action...where you fight one cube (bigger and meaner) and you would need more than 5 people.

oh wait...thats already in the game...the red alerts!

basically you really only fight them in endgame...what you did was off the story progression path.

notapwefan 09-24-2012 01:55 AM

you should Pug Elite Infected, then insult everyone to leave...so when you are alone then you can have a real experience with a cube )

jkname 09-24-2012 01:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baudl (Post 5816431)
i could however imagine a crytaline entitiy like fleet action...where you fight one cube (bigger and meaner) and you would need more than 5 people.

oh wait...thats already in the game...the red alerts!

Well, it's not quite a cube, and strictly speaking you COULD actually solo the end boss yourself using the ID4 maneuver.

rickpaaa 09-24-2012 02:44 AM

I take it that the "War Zone" in question is Ker'rat. That particular zone instance is for your level. The introductory borg encounters are also for your level.

If the borg were all they could be in the tutorial, no one would enter the game at all. If the borg were all that in Ker'rat, you wouldn't journey back ever again, and you would probably never try the PvP against the KDF, Commander level or beyond.

rustychat 09-24-2012 02:53 AM

A Wolf 359 historical scenario would be nice. Your fleet of 20-36 ships verses a single borg cube, in all it's horror. No respawns, huge health on the cube (but not a boosted regen rate), and of course, it'll also be one shotting everything left, right and center. But people tend to think that's not very fun for some strange reason. Most people don't find the fun in fighting an enemy that will kill you practically the moment you get into range. For games, you often need to diverge from the source material to keep it fun and flowing. That said, the Borg are overused. Not just in STO, but throughout much of Star Trek.

TNG had a good run with the Borg. They appeared rarely, and never beaten with force. DS9 used them only for backstory. First Contact had a good story. Voyager used and abused. Enterprise made it work quite well. Games have a similar history, if they barely touch the Borg, they keep them to be one of the biggest threats. Birth of the Federation for example, a single cube could, and would, happily destroy you and everyone else given half a chance. On the other hand, a Sovereign in Armada could go toe to toe with a Tactical Cube no worries. They needed fusion cubes to approach the level of what we associate with cubes. Fleet Ops is perhaps the only game I can think of that manages to use the Borg heavily, and keep the Borg horrifying. Unless you have a decent fleet, a Borg player having a Cube might make you sit back and consider just gging out of the game there and then.

What the devs should do is decrease the focus on Borg STFs. Keep the Borg tutorial, because it makes sense and a nice bit of story. Finish Into the Hive, but after that give us Children of Kahn and other STFs. Anything so we're not killing double digits of the most devestating ship that the Federation's greatest threat on a daily basis. Non-Borg STFs should have been introduced long ago. How about faction only STFs where they conduct a surgical strike against the other faction? Let us destroy the enemy's shipyards, capture or cripple an outpost, upload a virus into their communications network or sabotage their transwarp network. We're supposed to be at war, but how many of us have ever even felt like the Federation and the Klingon Empire was at anything other than a ceasefire with the odd minor skirmish? PvP certainly isn't working at making us feel like we've been at war.

hasukurobi 09-24-2012 03:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickpaaa (Post 5816801)
I take it that the "War Zone" in question is Ker'rat. That particular zone instance is for your level. The introductory borg encounters are also for your level.

If the borg were all they could be in the tutorial, no one would enter the game at all. If the borg were all that in Ker'rat, you wouldn't journey back ever again, and you would probably never try the PvP against the KDF, Commander level or beyond.

Then get them out of the War Zone and use some other species.

My point here is that the Borg are not some pathetic carbon copy villain to be thrown in lightly. These guys are not the Ferengie or the Cardassians these are the BORG. They are the be all and end all villain of Trek.


The Challenge some of you are suggesting is fine and all but my complaint about the lack of challenge is mostly in regards to very very underleveled ships being able to cream them or running into them in Exploration Missions and taking them down like so much fodder. This is unacceptable for the Borg. Moreover, it is not so much their difficulty or lack there of which is an issue it is the WAY they behave. Instead of getting the mysterious inviso torp of doom kills on you or other cheapness they should really focus more on a single target, lock it down, and try to assimilate it while its friends do whatever it takes to break their ally free. As I said, group tactics would be the answer and would work but one ship Kirking it up would be no match for the Borg.


On the ground it is inarguable that the Borg behave nothing like they do in the shows. They just attempt to mow you down with relentless and frequently ridiculously strong showers of plasma. However, that is no different than any other gun toting bad guy. Even the Klingong NPC's rush in and whip out a Bat'leth and the Gorn throw huge chunks of environment at you. So why do the Borg act like such simpletons that only know how to shoot things and have lost all interest in their prime directive of assimilation?

majesticmsfc 09-24-2012 04:17 AM

To be honest if STO followed the Destiny/Typhoon Pact books it would probably be a better all round game, where the only time the Borg would have appeared was in simulation on the Holodeck.

But if I recall the books came out after STO went live. SO we have to settle for this game unfortunately. It has it's advantages but also a hell lot of failings. Mount Everest high worth.

dariusmajere 09-24-2012 04:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hasukurobi (Post 5817311)
Then get them out of the War Zone and use some other species.

My point here is that the Borg are not some pathetic carbon copy villain to be thrown in lightly. These guys are not the Ferengie or the Cardassians these are the BORG. They are the be all and end all villain of Trek.


The Challenge some of you are suggesting is fine and all but my complaint about the lack of challenge is mostly in regards to very very underleveled ships being able to cream them or running into them in Exploration Missions and taking them down like so much fodder. This is unacceptable for the Borg. Moreover, it is not so much their difficulty or lack there of which is an issue it is the WAY they behave. Instead of getting the mysterious inviso torp of doom kills on you or other cheapness they should really focus more on a single target, lock it down, and try to assimilate it while its friends do whatever it takes to break their ally free. As I said, group tactics would be the answer and would work but one ship Kirking it up would be no match for the Borg.


On the ground it is inarguable that the Borg behave nothing like they do in the shows. They just attempt to mow you down with relentless and frequently ridiculously strong showers of plasma. However, that is no different than any other gun toting bad guy. Even the Klingong NPC's rush in and whip out a Bat'leth and the Gorn throw huge chunks of environment at you. So why do the Borg act like such simpletons that only know how to shoot things and have lost all interest in their prime directive of assimilation?

Have you paid attention to the story in the opening of STO what has been happening to the Borg? Have you also not noticed the borg you knew of and the Federation you knew of are in the PAST. The borg has been handed many defeats from the different video games, and Star trek books and shows. Hell Voyager basically ***** slapped the borg with the tech it was handed to get back home. You want the real Borg Experience, Take the same ship you were flying and take it out of a leveling zone and into an STF. There you will find its technology Kicking you in the groin repeatedly


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