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-   -   Fairness in PvP (http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=441751)

scurry5 11-11-2012 03:56 AM

Fairness in PvP
 
This is just something that came up on my mind once, and I thought I would like to see people's opinions on the topic.

I have heard people say that they enjoy PvP as long as it's fair. So, what do you count as fair in PvP?

For example, things like siphon builds and Danube spams are generally considered unfair from what I've seen on the forums. However, people seem to be much more divided on things like AMS or Graviton Pulse, whereas TBR in its current state, tric mine crits from cloaked B'Rels and Isometric Charge are generally okay.

So, what's your criteria for considering something fair/unfair? Having a legitimate counter that can be used solo/by a team? Not going above a certain amount of damage that seems ridiculous?

And what's your response to someone who is doing something unfair in your opinion? Do you ignore the person? Say something in chat? Scold him? Make him a priority target? Or even (God forbid) warp out?

And finally, given common agreement on something being unfair, what role can the devs play in mitigating it?

Just one last thing, though. I would much rather this thread not turn into a flame war or anything and get closed, so please bear in mind that no one person may necessarily be absolutely right. This thread is simply to solicit others' opinions on the subject, and for rational discussion.

virusdancer 11-11-2012 04:37 AM

STO PvP is casual PvP. It's pew pew phun! That being said, a fair fight tends to be one where each side has a fighting chance - you pew pew phun! If it's a case that you spawn, you die, you respawn, you die, you respawn, you die... and... you hesitate - well, it's likely that you're not having fun, eh?

Now, were the PvP about territory control - attacking an enemy base, defending your base - etc, etc, etc - something where the outcome of the fight actually mattered... then it's no longer about pew pew phun! In that case, screw the fair fight. It's about winning - as long as one is not cheating, exploiting bugs, etc, etc, etc.

Two different animals...

...the pew pew phun from fair fights - is pretty much missing in STO at this point.

shimmerless 11-11-2012 04:48 AM

I honestly don't have any formal "blacklist" because in my opinion it's a little silly to pretend you can draw some kind of line in the sand in STO. I mean where do you stop with pay2win, for example? Are Fleet ships p2w? How about the C-store?

That said I personally try to play as cleanly and as fairly as possible. I think most of us know when we're using unpleasant or "cheesy" loadouts, those people likely don't need reminding.

taut0u 11-11-2012 05:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scurry5 (Post 6503791)
I have heard people say that they enjoy PvP as long as it's fair. So, what do you count as fair in PvP?

Fair is when both teams are equal. Doesn't matter who wins, when both teams are good it is always a fun game.
Quote:

And what's your response to someone who is doing something unfair in your opinion?
Complaints are useless.

devorasx 11-11-2012 06:34 AM

Fair? PvP? In the same sentence?

The faster people learns that pvp is not about fairness the better.

fakehilbert 11-11-2012 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by devorasx (Post 6504711)
The faster people learns that pvp is not about fairness the better.

Why do you think the fighters are not allowed to bring guns to a boxing match? A set of rules that makes the competition fair increases the fun of the fight.

Cryptic doesn't understand how balance in this game works, but that doesn't mean that we have to intentionally make the game worse by using all the stupid consoles.

drkfrontiers 11-11-2012 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fakehilbert (Post 6505071)
Why do you think the fighters are not allowed to bring guns to a boxing match? A set of rules that makes the competition fair increases the fun of the fight.

Cryptic doesn't understand how balance in this game works, but that doesn't mean that we have to intentionally make the game worse by using all the stupid consoles.

I agree. Sadly though, the majority of players in the q's seem all to willing to defend their right to use broken mechanics.

aquitaine985 11-11-2012 08:34 AM

As Shimmer said, it's not really realistic to have a personal or community blacklist. Nobody can stop people from using ciphons or SNB doffs. All that said, one players' blacklist might differ from the next.

Things tend to change in relation to how many in a given group are using something. AMS is okay if 1/5 have it and use it, but anymore then 3 and it makes PVP a chore.

Such things would not be needed of course if Cryptic would pull their thumbs out and stop releasing things that personify cheese/unfair/OP abilities, weapons and ships. Season 7's handful that includes the Vesta and rep system abilities have actually made me NOT look forward to a STO season. That's never happened before. Again, very sad.

doomicile 11-11-2012 08:58 AM

Fairness in STO PvP really boils down to whatever exclusive items each Faction brings to the table.

Feds complained about BoP's being OP because of their superior maneuverability and versatile BoFF layout. Then Feds got a Defiant and the complaints stopped.

Klinks complained about AMS, then they got it and now hardly ever comes up anymore.

Feds complained about Klink Carrier spam, then they got the Atrox.

To me, Siphon Drones are the annoyance equivelant of the Danubes yet both sides still complain about em. Sounds pretty fair to me. Both are getting reworked in S7.

Then there are some things that are only available to either the lucky or the elite like the Jem Bug and SNB Doffs.


Overall, PvP was at it's most enjoyable prior to C-store consoles, Doffs, 2 and 3-piece set bonuses. The inclusion of these things just makes it too easy for a pre-made to exploit their collective effectiveness.

aetam1 11-11-2012 09:10 AM

Well thats a good question. In an mmo I do not really expect that both teams are equal. There will always be differences like one who can afford purple mk xii consoles and one who can't. There are differences in ships and soon also in brog/romulan lvls which have additional benefits. If you want truly fair fights in an tournament lvl like sc2 you probably should not play an mmo. There are mmos out there where you have to farm months to get gear good enough to be competitive.
Now while you do get advantages with lockbox/zen stuff or simply with good weapons from the exchange you can still be successful in pvp with the free stuff. But I suppose that is mainly because the skill lvl of many random players is very low.

Now back to the topic. For a single ship I would consider the use of nearly everything in this game ok unless it is truly broken. Like drain carriers or abusing tbr now with 4 part gen consoles and a tac captain. I can live with sc sci spamming tbr at the moment and it will be fixed soon, so it is not that bad.
The problem begins when teams combine stuff. Like 5 ams. I can live with one ams on the enemy team but if they truly begin to spam it is really annoying.
I can live with someone running 1 sub nuc doff but if you start stacking them with your whole team...

My point is mainly advantages with consoles and p2w ships are ok. In the queue you will never really have a fair fight due to different skill lvls and also group setups. There is nothing in the matchmaking to ensure each group as a healer, or an escort. You get groups of 5 escorts without heal and 5 cruiser who can't kill anything. Also I don't think a raptor with ams is worse than a bug. But people rather accept ships than consoles, I don't know why.


For myself I try to use only stuff which I am ok fighting against. So for example while I do use a leech (since it does not stack anymore and I don't care if an enemy shoots me with it) but I do not use ams (because I really hate getting amsed). For premade fights I remove all p2w consles if that is agreed on, I have no problem with that. Also I might add my KDF chars now own an ams since it is pretty cheap in the exchange. I have not used it so far but I carry it with me and if meet an enemy team with 5 ams I might use it myself against them.


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