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-   -   Tholian Torpedoes have Anti-Cloak Tracking? (http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=466611)

azurianstar 11-29-2012 12:45 AM

Tholian Torpedoes have Anti-Cloak Tracking?
 
Was just in a Tholian Red Alert (one that actually worked), and I was in a B'rel Refit, was already cloaked for several seconds (so if I had aggro, the ship would've lost it a while ago).

And out of the blue, I was struck by a Tholian Disruptor Torpedo, doing 60% hull damage.

So the only thing I can conclude is that Tholian Torpedos must have Anti-Cloak tracking of somekind. And last I checked, only Federation NPCs had that capability.




BTW, think we can tone down on the Tholian disables. Seems almost impossible to fight with constant disables, and you only got so much to repair ability.

borticuscryptic 11-29-2012 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by azurianstar (Post 6839331)
Was just in a Tholian Red Alert (one that actually worked), and I was in a B'rel Refit, was already cloaked for several seconds (so if I had aggro, the ship would've lost it a while ago).

And out of the blue, I was struck by a Tholian Disruptor Torpedo, doing 60% hull damage.

So the only thing I can conclude is that Tholian Torpedos must have Anti-Cloak tracking of somekind. And last I checked, only Federation NPCs had that capability.

BTW, think we can tone down on the Tholian disables. Seems almost impossible to fight with constant disables, and you only got so much to repair ability.


If the torpedo was an entity (targetable), then it will continue tracking you after you cloak unless you get >10km from it, or use Jam Sensors on it. Stealth on its own doesn't remove you from its target. This is true for any targetable torpedo, not just the Heavy Disruption Torpedoes.

As for the disables... keep in mind that Tholian ships have less shields and hull than any other space critter. So while they may disable you regularly, they shouldn't be, in the end, much more difficult than other space critters, due to this fragility.

One of our goals when designing a major new enemy group like the Tholians, is getting players to try out new tactics and countermeasures against them. The fact that Tholian weaponry can drain and disable you should mean that things like Target Subsystem: Weapons and Emergency Power to Weapons become more valuable tools when facing off against them. Their Tholian Webs also make it a near-necessity to keep an AOE power like Photonic Shockwave, Tractor Beam Repulsors, or Beam Fire-at-Will on hand and ready to use.

In the end, it's all about making the game more interesting and fun. Try something new when facing an enemy you think is too hard/annoying. You may be pleasantly surprised by the results.

borticuscryptic 11-29-2012 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by borticuscryptic (Post 6845341)
If the torpedo was an entity (targetable), then it will continue tracking you after you cloak unless you get >10km from it, or use Jam Sensors on it. Stealth on its own doesn't remove you from its target. This is true for any targetable torpedo, not just the Heavy Disruption Torpedoes.

I feel as though additional explanation may be warranted here...

Targetable Torpedoes are entities, but they do not possess standard AI for controlling their behavior. This means that they do not have a threat list, perception list, pathfinding, or any of that sort of "core AI" programming.

When launched, they follow a very simple script that says the following:

1) Get my owner's current target.
2) Set that as my target.
3) Pursue my target.
4) When in range of my target, explode.

Targetable Torpedoes are incapable of making decisions to take any actions other than the above. Although, there's also a failsafe substate built in that says basically:

3b) If my target is no longer valid, pick a new one from my owner's threat list.

The only way that this condition will kick in, is if you are absolutely untargetable to the torpedo. The only things that prevent you from being considered a "valid target" are:

a) Death (yours, or the torpedo)
b) Get out of range of both the torpedo and its owner (10k should do it, I'm pretty sure)
c) Use a "Placate" ability on the torpedo (this is not the same as stealth - it's an AI flag that renders you untargetable to the victim of the ability)
d) Enter a cutscene or other mission-specific mechanic that renders you untargetable.

There may be other methods I've forgotten about in my pre-coffee morning haze.

TL;DR - Even though they travel a bit like entities, don't expect Torpedoes to behave as if they have AI.

reginamala78 11-29-2012 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by azurianstar (Post 6839331)
BTW, think we can tone down on the Tholian disables. Seems almost impossible to fight with constant disables, and you only got so much to repair ability.

I dunno about 'impossible' so much as 'mildly annoying,' so long as you carry an Engineering Team. What I wonder though is how come we don't seem to get a '5 second disable immunity' aftering being tagged by their subsystem targeting, or maybe 'immune to disables for 10 seconds' when using ET the way Tac Team neutralizes tac debuffs? Several times I've been weapons-targeted, popped my ET, then immediately weapons-targeted again. Its odd.

Also slightly puzzled how they can combine FAW with subsystem targeting. Is it a bug that shouldn't be, or is that just something they can do that we can't?

borticuscryptic 11-29-2012 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reginamala78 (Post 6846451)
Also slightly puzzled how they can combine FAW with subsystem targeting. Is it a bug that shouldn't be, or is that just something they can do that we can't?

Only the Dreadnoughts have this ability. It is not a bug, but a specific ability designed for them.

lordhavelock 11-29-2012 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by azurianstar (Post 6839331)
...BTW, think we can tone down on the Tholian disables. Seems almost impossible to fight with constant disables, and you only got so much to repair ability.

AzurianStar, I don't mean to be argumentative, nor take away your entitled opinion. However, I do want to say that personally, I rather enjoy fighting the Tholians. They have some of the most interesting tactics in PvE combat. Between thier disables, web capturing, and/or throwing up "shield walls", it keeps me on my toes much more than any other foe. It's still mostly a faceroll (as is most PvE), but I do occasionally have to intelligently pick which BO power to reserve for use at the right time. I'd "vote" that Tholians stay as they are (in fact, giving them more CC wouldn't offend me). :o

themarie 11-29-2012 10:51 AM

Borticuscryptic:

Thank you for taking a moment to encourage players to try new builds and tactics.

Too often I see "well that build sucks you need ___ ____ ___ and ____ like everyone else has if you want to play the game right."

Funny, five toons now at VA I must be doing *something* right?

I'm not afraid to respec to take advantage of odd builds... some of the more odd builds I've come up with gave my PvP friends fits... to the point I was labeled a hacker more than once. :D

Another good example is Onslaught. Every group I've run with that tries to DPS through the mission fails. Meanwhile every group I've run with that brings at least one science-ship makes it through.


In Star Trek The Next Generation, we see the massacre at Wolf 359 when Starfleet charged in and got shredded against a single cube.

Also, early battles against the Dominion in DS9. The Jem'Hadar used to be able to eat Galaxy Class ships for lunch.


In both those examples, "we" had to learn how to overcome these challenges. I'm pretty sure Starfleet Captains didn't complain and rage-quit every time the bad-guys threw a challenge at them.

f2pdrakron 11-29-2012 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by borticuscryptic (Post 6845341)
In the end, it's all about making the game more interesting and fun.

I rather have my teeth pulled that get into another Tholian Red Alert.

redricky 11-29-2012 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by borticuscryptic (Post 6846511)
Only the Dreadnoughts have this ability. It is not a bug, but a specific ability designed for them.

Reports are that this is not cleared by the same means as conventional subs offline. Is this an intentional design feature?

dontdrunkimshoot 11-29-2012 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redricky (Post 6848231)
Reports are that this is not cleared by the same means as conventional subs offline. Is this an intentional design feature?

i can clear it with a weapons batt or ET. but that doesn't prevent me from getting hit with the weapons disable again a second later :mad:

tholians are truly the most annoying thing to fight because of that, especially when its a race against the clock most of the time your fight them. i've had weapons disabled by orbs and recluses as well, maybe it wasn't the faw disable but a normal target sub system.


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