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-   -   Just an observation. (http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=480351)

drkfrontiers 12-10-2012 12:31 PM

Just an observation.
 
Hi PvP community,

Just something I've become aware of that you might want to consider.

I myself am a developer and, like most people work really hard each day trying to please my customers. The work I do is thankless, as I am so far removed from the end result.

Developers get the brunt of "this is not good enough", etc; but there comes a time when personal insults and tawdry comments actually start to push people away. Just think how you'd feel when you have worked really hard at something. Imagine how you would feel if an entire community tore that effort and hard work to pieces?

I know that there are many things that need to be fixed etc, but personally I am at a juncture myself, where "Guys, ok. I think that Cryptic get that you are unhappy."

It's stupid I know, but in my work, my attitude is generally this - either I am part of the solution, or part of the problem.

No-one in their right mind can remain objective, or open-minded in the face of the sort of abuse I see on the PvP forums of late.

As a PvPer, I am rather sad. Sad, that for whatever reasons, IMHO we collectively chose to be part of the problem.

Do with this as you may, its really just my sincere opinion on the matter.

We are dealing with fellow, human beings - not machines. They take this abuse home with them everyday.

virusdancer 12-10-2012 01:11 PM

Product's being developed. There's customer feedback. Product launches. If the customer is upset, then attempts are made to address the issue. This may mean eating lunch at your desk, coming in early, staying late, or even working from home. If an issue cannot be resolved in a reasonable amount of time, there may be situations where outside help is brought in to tackle certain aspects of the problems/issues.

CEO will chew out CIO/CTO's butt.
CIO/CTO will chew out director's butt.
Director will chew out manager's butt.
Manager will chew out lead's butt.
Lead will chew out team's butt.
You don't want to be on the receiving end of that at the team level.

Team will CYA to lead.
Lead will CYA to manager.
Manager will CYA to director.
Director will CYA to CIO/CTO.
CIO/CTO will CYA to CEO.

One of the best ways to CYA...is to do your job. If there's something preventing you from doing your job, you document that with the guy in the food chain above you (unless it's some lack on your part, which will usually be documented by the guy in the food chain above you as part of their CYA along with the reasons they did not fire you on the spot before it reached that point).

If you find that the issue is with management on some level - something that cannot be resolved - you can either look for employment elsewhere or muddle along hoping that they do not make you the scapegoat at some point. Maybe you'll get lucky and there will be a Workforce Reallocation Effort - where you'll get a nice severance package to tide you over while looking for another job. Course, you risk being made the scapegoat and being blacklisted.

Of course, all of this is relatively moot - if you consider that the primary customer for STO/Cryptic/PWE is the PvE player. Disgruntled PvPers are likely considered an acceptable loss as long as the majority of the playerbase is kept happy with snowball guns and scarves...

...now when they start to complain, what I babbled on about above likely will come into play.

Still though, in the end I'd say it comes down to management. Either management is not allowing the devs to do their jobs, is mismanaging how they do their jobs, or is responsible for not replacing them with folks that can get the job done...

thissler 12-10-2012 01:20 PM

Does this mean there will be a delay in the artwork? I was hoping to launch by xmas.


:(

drkfrontiers 12-10-2012 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thissler (Post 7019491)
Does this mean there will be a delay in the artwork? I was hoping to launch by xmas.


:(

Roger ten four ;) Nudge is good as a wink to a blind man.

virusdancer 12-10-2012 01:32 PM

That doesn't mean that it can't be management and the developer's fault, mind you.

For example, many years back I took over the DBA position from another guy that had a breakdown and they let him go (I mean change the locks and keep an eye out sort of thing - crazy, am I right?).

The company had a database driven product that saw regular updates. The updates could take several hours or take what seemed like forever. They were usually run overnight. Management had accepted that this was the way it was. Customers were informed that this was the way it was. The support staff, sales people, even the person that did the documentation - everybody accepted that this was the way it was.

Problem.

The guy that had been maintaining the update script for the databases...well, with every single update - he added the new stored procedures, dropped old ones, changes to indexes, dropped indexes, tables, fields, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.

Problem.

He never removed any of the old changes.

If you ran that script, you could be adding and dropping things dozens of times that no longer existed in the current version of the software. Procedures would run to update the same information over and over...and over...and over. If something went wrong during the running of that script, God only knew just how broken the database could end up and it could take days to fix the issues.

He thought he was doing his job fine. Management thought he was doing his job fine. Everybody, both at the company and the customers thought everything was fine.

It wasn't...

Another example of things along those lines, would be the folks that never document anything - they figure that if nobody knows how to fix it, they have a greater sense of job security. Heh, doesn't work that way. So you might get a replacement in or somebody else might take over that aspect of the code. Do they document? Nope, they may only half understand what's there - write patched code to get things working - and of course, everything's a pile of puked up spaghetti at this point.

Management should enforce the documentation. Developers should be documenting from the start.

There's just too many times that an emergency happens, things are quickly patched, with the idea that somewhere down the line it will be documented and patched correctly... that just never happens.

As an aside though, lol - I'm not sure I'll ever forget the guy that left comments about how he hated the other developers on the team in his code mixed in with liberal comments including Bible verses. Yeah, he didn't last long...

stevehale 12-10-2012 01:35 PM

I can't speak for others but none of this is personal for me. Personal attacks are pointless regardless of whatever rational one can dream up to justify them. I think "Devs" tends to be the catch all term (like P2W is for all bad mechanics since F2P even if those things aren't literally P2W). I don't even know whether it's a Dev problem as much as a Ownership problem. I don't know who actually makes the decisions or how they determine what constitutes a success.

That being said, if a dog defecates on the carpet you can praise him, ignore him, or rub his nose in it and tell him "No! Bad dog!" Of the three options, reminding them that what they are doing is bad has a slightly better potential for achieving success than the other two.

Maybe they get that things aren't great but unless or until they can do something to fix the problem, negativity is an unfortunate reality. They can bury their head in the sand to protect fragile egos or they can recognize that a problem exists and take steps to resolve it.

Not everything is bad.

I'm not motivated by a need to troll the Development team. When they do well I'll be among the first in line to praise them for it (The DS9 Pack and Doffemon were excellent). Sometimes I'll even shy away from commenting on something that's been beaten into the ground unless a new wrinkle appears. But the only way anything can improve is if we continue to give feedback (hopefully in constructive ways), especially if it's negative.

p2wsucks 12-10-2012 01:49 PM

As a whole I find this forum is much less caustic than PvE forums have been toward Devs, Mgt, and other players. Yet, the PvE side gets more resource time and effort. Granted that has been by and large a grind fest to fill Cryptic's pocket, it's still been much more than PvP has gotten. Any Dev who reads the customer feedback and determines the root problem is w/the customer base needs to stop drinking the coolaid.

The lion's share a problems with this game in general and more specifically PvP have come from the top down for years now. Quite frankly they're not going to change enough to make things better regardless of what Devs do or say let alone forum posters. If I was an employee of this company I'd keep a low profile, pad my resume, and then look for a way out before my professional reputation takes too big of a hit.

thissler 12-10-2012 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkfrontiers (Post 7018581)
Hi PvP community,

Just something I've become aware of that you might want to consider.

I myself am a developer and, like most people work really hard each day trying to please my customers. The work I do is thankless, as I am so far removed from the end result.

Developers get the brunt of "this is not good enough", etc; but there comes a time when personal insults and tawdry comments actually start to push people away. Just think how you'd feel when you have worked really hard at something. Imagine how you would feel if an entire community tore that effort and hard work to pieces?

I know that there are many things that need to be fixed etc, but personally I am at a juncture myself, where "Guys, ok. I think that Cryptic get that you are unhappy."

It's stupid I know, but in my work, my attitude is generally this - either I am part of the solution, or part of the problem.

No-one in their right mind can remain objective, or open-minded in the face of the sort of abuse I see on the PvP forums of late.

As a PvPer, I am rather sad. Sad, that for whatever reasons, IMHO we collectively chose to be part of the problem.

Do with this as you may, its really just my sincere opinion on the matter.

We are dealing with fellow, human beings - not machines. They take this abuse home with them everyday.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevehale (Post 7019831)
I can't speak for others but none of this is personal for me. Personal attacks are pointless regardless of whatever rational one can dream up to justify them. I think "Devs" tends to be the catch all term (like P2W is for all bad mechanics since F2P even if those things aren't literally P2W). I don't even know whether it's a Dev problem as much as a Ownership problem. I don't know who actually makes the decisions or how they determine what constitutes a success.

That being said, if a dog defecates on the carpet you can praise him, ignore him, or rub his nose in it and tell him "No! Bad dog!" Of the three options, reminding them that what they are doing is bad has a slightly better potential for achieving success than the other two.

Maybe they get that things aren't great but unless or until they can do something to fix the problem, negativity is an unfortunate reality. They can bury their head in the sand to protect fragile egos or they can recognize that a problem exists and take steps to resolve it.

Not everything is bad.

I'm not motivated by a need to troll the Development team. When they do well I'll be among the first in line to praise them for it (The DS9 Pack and Doffemon were excellent). Sometimes I'll even shy away from commenting on something that's been beaten into the ground unless a new wrinkle appears. But the only way anything can improve is if we continue to give feedback (hopefully in constructive ways), especially if it's negative.


Hale actually drops cake in PVP when he explodes. The Devs snuck it into the last patch.
Offering ONE MILLION EC for a screenshot of the cake in the loot box above the text...

SteveHale was killed by [your lucky ass name here]

Back on topic, I concur.

:D

virusdancer 12-10-2012 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thissler (Post 7020121)
Hale actually drops cake in PVP when he explodes. The Devs snuck it into the last patch.
Offering ONE MILLION EC for a screenshot of the cake in the loot box above the text...

SteveHale was killed by [your lucky ass name here]

Back on topic, I concur.

:D

Were it PvE, there would be half a dozen threads complaining that he didn't drop pie instead of cake - half a dozen threads complaining that it was too much effort to get the cake - half a dozen threads complaining that the cake was bind to character and couldn't be sold or traded - and - half a dozen threads asking how to get the cake...

wolverine595959 12-10-2012 02:13 PM

DRK I hear you but the problem has always been that we are out and out mislead. Its one thing if they said, "PvPers we do not care about you because you are like 5% of the game take what we give or don't, there is bigger group PvE that fills the coffers." We all could have lived with that and left or continued to grind or whatever. No they get on say, "You are right PvP is borked we are working on fix, it should be next season. Ok myabe not this season maybe next." I am sorry but devs are the reason why the atmosphere is toxic and most of the PvPers have moved on or have taking really long breaks. Cryptic has wanted to kill PvP since it went F2P becaue lets be real we are a small portion of the money they bring in.


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