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-   -   PvP fix idea (http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=508461)

hexdecimaluk 01-08-2013 05:28 AM

PvP fix idea
 
You guys can take this as a troll if you like and if you like the PvP thats fine and dandy. But I, I do not. i think while the balance is as good as you can expect from any decent MMO the gameplay on the whole is tacky, humdrum, and lets be honest the chances of a full team of FEDs instead of one or 2 feds and 2 AFK/leavers vs a pre-made team is slimmer than an anorexic trill (premade meaning a pre-organised team or fleet) and also its totally dead. IMO it needs improvement drastically and while im all for arenas im not going to cry about the quality of gameplay in PvP without offering an idea or 2 that i think is within the ability and budget of the devs.

1. Ker'rat is wasted as an open warzone and has long descended into a gear farming and casual ganking fest. Instead why not make it a que-for warzone thats strait 8v8? just fix the spawns so there opposite for klinks and feds and allow probes to scan cloaks at least perhaps. maybe make a second 2 round version as well one team decrypts the other circumvents then switch sides also take out the looting or just automatically award it at the end or something so were not all flying round looking for the gold diamond we were about to pick up before 3 cubes pwn us. the same could be done for the ground one although the existing ground outdoors arena would make a sweet CTF map. experience also shows that just having 1 que for all button works better than a game browser or people just afk the que pop and i come closer to a mini-stroke.

2. why is Nukara Prime not open PvP contested territory? forget that borg world you have to rescue starfleet officers from, make nukara the PvP world i would never leave my PC desk.

Anyway this is how i wish PvP in STO was. now im off to play swtor, and dreeeam of STO having the same quality of PvP just by adding a que button and fixed spawns to ker'rat and opening player vs play damage on Nukara prime.

Apologies for my grammar i know its not too great

bitemepwe 01-08-2013 06:03 AM

Quote:

1. Ker'rat is wasted as an open warzone and has long descended into a gear farming and casual ganking fest.
I personaly like Ker'rat the way it is. The Idea that we KDf have to both complete the Mission in the zone and fight to keep the feds from doing the same in a lot of fun.
As well I enjoy it for its relaxed PvP atmosphere, even if it means I may get jumped while scanning in a PvP zone.

Quote:

just fix the spawns so there opposite for klinks and feds
Though I support this fix for Ker'rat. Its time to stop being lazy and fix it.


Quote:

2. why is Nukara Prime not open PvP contested territory? forget that borg world you have to rescue starfleet officers from, make nukara the PvP world i would never leave my PC desk.
I agree. We need more open PvP zones.

radkip 01-08-2013 08:01 AM

PvP on Nukara would be even more unbalanced than it is in other areas. You have to wear an environmental suit just to go there, just try using one of those in a pvp situation. You will NOT survive.

thissler 01-08-2013 08:44 AM

Spawn points in PVP should be protected by HUGE super agressive ships/stations that simply waste any opforce ship. Detection grids, lance weapons, the works. People need to have a chance. Arena's random spawns seem to mitigate this already so they likely should be excluded.

inktomi19 01-08-2013 09:00 AM

The problem with PvP in this game has to do with the learning curve, and with differences in gear.

What I mean by the learning curve, is that there are a lot of things you need to do to succeed in PvP that the game never ever teaches you, or that the game teaches you the wrong way. The game never teaches you keybinds, and there is no PvE encounter that you need to set up keybinds to get through. The game doesn't tell you that two of your engineering slots need to be devoted to EPtS, and you need to cycle it non-stop or you'll be vaporized in a second flat. Any NPC that hits you with control effects like SNB or VM does such low DPS that you can just fly away and wait it out. But those things are all basics for PvP.

So when a new player tries PvP for the first time, suddenly nothing they learned about the game in their previous 50 levels even applies. And chances are they will be defeated so swiftly that they don't even know how it happened.

Ground PvP is even worse that way, since it's possible to set up kits and gear so you can literally 1-shot people -- it's not possible for a new player to learn from a 1-shot.





The other problem is that new PvPers end up fighting people that win entirely by virtue of their gear. If you follow Hilbert's PvP Guide, that will actually get you doing okay in PUGs when fighting PUGs, and a captain who's just hit level 50 can get decent weapons from replaying missions.

But there are shields in this game that a new Patrol Escort with the hybrid plasma/disruptor dual heavy cannons that are recommended just will not put a dent in. So the player trying to learn PvP is likely to run up against players in pay-to-win ships which outmanuever their patrol escort, with shields that can't be breached.

And the rough part is that when a player shows up in a pay-to-win ship with high end gear in most matches, no one in the match is effective against them, so the new PvPer doesn't see that there is any way to beat that.




What I'm getting at, is that if you want to encourage PvP, first the PvE needs to train players towards PvP at least a little bit. After that, a player just hitting level cap with whatever gear they could buy from the exchange needs to be able to survive long enough, and be successful enough that they can stick around and learn.

hexdecimaluk 01-08-2013 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inktomi19 (Post 7397421)
The problem with PvP in this game has to do with the learning curve, and with differences in gear.

What I mean by the learning curve, is that there are a lot of things you need to do to succeed in PvP that the game never ever teaches you, or that the game teaches you the wrong way. The game never teaches you keybinds, and there is no PvE encounter that you need to set up keybinds to get through. The game doesn't tell you that two of your engineering slots need to be devoted to EPtS, and you need to cycle it non-stop or you'll be vaporized in a second flat. Any NPC that hits you with control effects like SNB or VM does such low DPS that you can just fly away and wait it out. But those things are all basics for PvP.

So when a new player tries PvP for the first time, suddenly nothing they learned about the game in their previous 50 levels even applies. And chances are they will be defeated so swiftly that they don't even know how it happened.

Ground PvP is even worse that way, since it's possible to set up kits and gear so you can literally 1-shot people -- it's not possible for a new player to learn from a 1-shot.





The other problem is that new PvPers end up fighting people that win entirely by virtue of their gear. If you follow Hilbert's PvP Guide, that will actually get you doing okay in PUGs when fighting PUGs, and a captain who's just hit level 50 can get decent weapons from replaying missions.

But there are shields in this game that a new Patrol Escort with the hybrid plasma/disruptor dual heavy cannons that are recommended just will not put a dent in. So the player trying to learn PvP is likely to run up against players in pay-to-win ships which outmanuever their patrol escort, with shields that can't be breached.

And the rough part is that when a player shows up in a pay-to-win ship with high end gear in most matches, no one in the match is effective against them, so the new PvPer doesn't see that there is any way to beat that.




What I'm getting at, is that if you want to encourage PvP, first the PvE needs to train players towards PvP at least a little bit. After that, a player just hitting level cap with whatever gear they could buy from the exchange needs to be able to survive long enough, and be successful enough that they can stick around and learn.


Oh thats easy to fix, In other games theres lots of thing you cant take into PvP. mostly consumables but i think if they just limited how many things you could have when entering PvP that is beyond basic tier 12 purple like lets say 3? "ok il have 2 fleet weapons and my STF shield, and anything else you have to sacrifice an entire item like a console or something of equal value because suppose these things use more power! get where im coming from? ;);) that balances out the game alot Aaaand you can then have endless fun deciding what special thing you want to equip and experimenting right? then suppose just like swtor's end-game PvP recruit gear players that hit 50 could get 3 basic special items like 2 special phasers and a special shield/impulse/deflector depending on their class then they can grind for the dirsupter or poloron or whatever they want. if cryptic really wanted to pay some overtime then they could put a power consumption rating and cap mechanic specifically to limit the amount of OP stuff they can equip. and yeah that shield sounds bad that should be banned out of the PvP no MMO wants a pay2win label put on its competitive scene trust me. and this game does not have a competetive scene ive spent many an hour laughing at the failed attempts to pit one team against another properly in this game.

brokenmirror2012 01-08-2013 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thissler (Post 7397261)
Spawn points in PVP should be protected by HUGE super agressive ships/stations that simply waste any opforce ship. Detection grids, lance weapons, the works. People need to have a chance. Arena's random spawns seem to mitigate this already so they likely should be excluded.

No to this...

ADD NPCS TO PVP... This idea KILLED pvp orriginaly.

First: 20s Spawn Protection, Canceled When attacking.
Second: EVERY Map needs 12 Spawnpoints. (6 per side)
Third: Spawning should be based on enemy proximity, not player proximity.
Fourth: Warzones need to be HUGE

Warzones should be large enough to contain 1 Quest,4 Objectives, 4 Bases, 1 Planet, AND atleast 30 KM^3 in Empty space. Bases are Player Faction bases. The capture of one severly decreases influence on objectives.

By doing that ur required to be aware of 8 objectives at once, adding depth and strategy.

& at ground pvp 1 shots. I learned from being 1 shot. I learned how I was being 1 shotted, and I used it, Now I can 1 shot.

hexdecimaluk 01-09-2013 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brokenmirror2012 (Post 7404851)
No to this...

ADD NPCS TO PVP... This idea KILLED pvp orriginaly.

First: 20s Spawn Protection, Canceled When attacking.
Second: EVERY Map needs 12 Spawnpoints. (6 per side)
Third: Spawning should be based on enemy proximity, not player proximity.
Fourth: Warzones need to be HUGE

Warzones should be large enough to contain 1 Quest,4 Objectives, 4 Bases, 1 Planet, AND atleast 30 KM^3 in Empty space. Bases are Player Faction bases. The capture of one severly decreases influence on objectives.

By doing that ur required to be aware of 8 objectives at once, adding depth and strategy.

& at ground pvp 1 shots. I learned from being 1 shot. I learned how I was being 1 shotted, and I used it, Now I can 1 shot.


why not just put a massive Q curtain (first encounter with Q TNG) infront of the spawn area which opens for 15 seconds every 30 seconds? and a bunch of turrets or mine field in front of that or maybe just set the spawns way far back with worm wholes that power you to the warzone either would work and while protecting you from being spawn trapped it also ensures you're spawning in groups plus if you're in combat while near you're mines you pull the mines with you which then get pulled by whoever is base raping you and to make sure you dont abuse them or hide behind them, you have 25 seconds from coming into proximity before you are vunrable to them you're self. if you don't leave the spawn area and miss 2 consequtive windows then you're AFK kicked and replaced by the next person in line to play who will receive any XP/rewards you earned including for the time spent in the warzone. because its full of borg you should get STF tokens for playing all loot goes to the winners top DPS/Top Objective/to Heal/repair first to click gets their choice of loot. but both sides still get STF token rewards based on performance just like an STF but in a more competetive way. and fleet vs fleet gets you Fleet credits but has to be full fleet team vs full fleet team but i suppose you cou could allow fleets to temporarly recruit from other fleets just for the warzone call it fleet exchange recruitment you're in with a fair share of the rewards just to que up and play.

PS if an enemy agros the mines by attacking you near them you're just dragging them along with you till you're out of combat but there armed to attack you're enemy only if that happens no 25 seconds they just return to normall position when you're safe

DONE! make it happen cryptic :cool:

webdeath 01-09-2013 11:27 PM

Personally, my issues with PVP in space differ from most.

First, it's because the game revolves around the PVE aspect. And PVE is so easy you don't even really need Bridge officer powers to get through most, if not nearly all of the content going from levels 1-50. Quality of weapon also doesn't matter.

If PVE difficulty, and Strategy was actually ramped up so that it perhaps required full teams for some missions in the later levels you got, it would at least help teach team work. They also would have to give a better understanding as you level of what your Ship and Professions role is on a team in the PVE.. which would translate into PVP.

Then there are the Weapons in the game. You have So many Weapons, to a new player, it would be difficult to know which are the best to use at first. Especially if you go by DPS. I mean look at the comparison of DHC vs DC.. Same DPS, but VERY different damage. Sure we know it's because DHC's do the same DPS as DC's in the same time frame. But DHC's do their damage better, and faster then DC because it's more upfront. Which actually translates into higher DPS if you think about it.

Instead of just making weapons about their Damage, Each weapon probably should have gotten some other side effect as well beyond just Damage distance drop offs, or weapon power hogs.

Perhaps They should have done this:
all Weapons can use FAW, Beam weapons get better damage with it, or better Acc
All weapons can Target a subsystem, Beams are more accurate, with Single Beams being the most accurate.
All weapons can "Overload" but Dual beam banks deal more damage, and Single beams are more accurate.
All weapons can Rapid Fire, but Cannons get a larger radius, and are more accurate.

Then DHC's should have had a lower DPS. Since they are doing SO MUCH damage up front, especially because of the Staple for Cannons: Rapid Fire/Scatter Volley.

Not to mention Fireing Arcs could have been modified slightly. Perhaps DC's have a larger Fireing Arc then DHC's but smaller then single Cannons. Maybe the Arc should be:
Single Cannon 90
DC 60
DHC 30
At least it would help in keeping DC's on target in order to actually do their full DPS instead of being at the SAME arc as the better and more powerful DHC.

Another thing that bothers me, and it's more of a Game engine pet peeve really. Is that Space is 360 degrees. We don't even get close to that. We can't point the saucers of our ships up or down which leads to the "Circle Jerk" Cruisers and single beam based ships like to perform as a way to try to avoid Cannon fire.

The amount of Maps we have for PVP is a joke. Granted if you were to add up both Space and ground it might seem like we have a lot. But when you then separate those maps appropriately, you see how limited PVP really is.

Now, ground PVP is another beast all together. Honestly, as much as I don't like the ability to "one shot" some one in ground, I do understand it better since it is based on being a shooter. But yet as a shooter, we can't actually aim for body parts and do anything effective to others. Not to mention there really doesn't feel like there is as easy a way to defend from a one shot. It's almost as if Ground is the Exact opposite from space. Where in space, it's much easier to defend yourself. But on the ground, it's much easier to produce damage and harder to heal.

On the ground, in PVP, Tactical is King. Almost so much so that there is no need for an Engi, or a Sci. Sure a Sci can be useful. But it doesn't feel as much so. And yet the PVE is so easy, it can lead to many false assumptions once you start to PVP.

All in all the game was balanced to much around PVE. And making PVE too much of a Zerg fest. And it's so bad the new players are left with a false sense of power. Power that once they step into a PVP Arena, Cap and hold, or some other form of PVP, is suddenly stripped away, leaving that same player having to either sink or swim, with many deciding to just not bother.

There.. I've rambled enough and ranted my thoughts on why PVP is not as good as it could be. Sorry if it's not clear enough..

But come on Cryptic. Pick up the ball that is both STO and PVP, balance things better both in space and ground. Stop worrying so much about your Wallets and start improving the quality of the game. We all want STO to succeed. Other wise we wouldn't have spent so much money on the game when we did. And wouldn't be willing to do so in the future.


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