Star Trek Online

Star Trek Online (http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/index.php)
-   PvP Gameplay (http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/forumdisplay.php?f=125)
-   -   Why you never need ACC on Weps. (http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=550891)

thissler 02-14-2013 07:37 AM

Why you never need ACC on Weps.
 
Most of you guys likely already know all this so really this isn't for you. Someone was asking and it's easy to just post it here.

This is for a system of hits and crits that Bort at least has said is still current. So if some of the underlying rules have changed, OF COURSE this changes as well. What follows is really a way to see what it is you may want to have as a mod on your weps.

Acc as a stat is meaningless. Acc ONLY has meaning when you are comparing it to Def. There is no other time that Acc has any meaning. There are very few ways to gain Acc in the game. There's the trait, and there's a total of +30% on weps. There are some gear pieces in the game as well that add a small bit of Acc.

You can never stack enough Acc to overcome any ships Def. Just won't happen. You will always have less Acc. So once we start to compare Acc to Def we can see that we will always be missing with some of our attacks.

Hmm. Okay now here's thought time. How and when do I want to attack? Is autofire really an option? Furthermore, is it worthwhile to attack at any time other than when I FULLY expect to defeat my opponents hull? Well almost all of the time those answers will be no. Autofire will likely BENEFIT my target by proccing some passive heal or other ability. Resistances are FAR to high for lower level attacks to overcome.

Okay but suppose I have some nice weapon proc I like to keep on? Well you DON'T need stunning Acc to get that applied. It WILL get on there. Don't fret.

Fine. So what do? Well if Acc compares to Def unfavorably, just remove Def. There's more than one way to do this. It is very simple to degrade a targets Def to the point that Acc is now >Def and your hit rate is 100% And it doesn't matter that there's some time between opportunities to do that as gee whiz, your best attacks have cooldowns anyways and we already decided....that we NEED to use our best attacks.

Okay so I don't need Acc. What about Crit H and D? That's a little different. H will convert hits into crits, and D will add more damge to each crit. So it depends on where you happen to be at any point in time on the Crit H/D curve. Currently there's more sources for Crit H off of weapons than there are for Crit D. So you may want to reserve your weps for the Crit D, as you can add the Crit H elsewhere.

But, just looking at a simple sample, to show how it works. We're going to work on 100 hits. Shots that have already landed. And if we've removed Def from our target, all our shots land. So this isn't impossible. Lets say your base damage is 100. Lets say that the crit bonus is 50% of base. So a crit does 150 damage, or 50 points extra. Keep in mind, all we need to consider is the incremental damage, the hit itself has already occurred. Let's say our crit rate is 1%. Okay I can add 1% H or I can add 10% D. 1% H would add one more crit for 50 extra damage. 10% D would add 10 damage to the crit that's already on the board. Okay so I go for H. You can see that you would go for H all the way up to 5% or 5 crits.

At that point no matter what I add, I add the same amount of damage. But if I add D I get the same amount of damage in fewer hits, so you go with D.

Okay now what. I've changed my crit severity to 60. So if I add another 1% H I add 60 damage, and if I add 10% D I add only 50 damage so I choose H.

Now at 6% I'm back at parity so I go with D. And so on.

So acc is useless. Crit H and Crit D are very useful, you just need to know where you stand on the curve to decide what one you need to add next, and realize that by DOING that, you change where you stand.

CAVEAT: Pinned targets seem to get CRIT far more often than they should be. This is only from observations. I don't have 1000 test kills yet. Just saying that if Crit H is already at 50% due to some glitch in acc/def/crit (Nah...COULDN"T BE!) you can see how handy D would be.

Cheers and happy flying!

shimmerless 02-14-2013 07:50 AM

The thing is, accuracy isn't an all-or-nothing prospect. Yes, without some kind of snare you're generally always going to have lower accuracy than an opponent's defense, but that only means you'll miss more; it doesn't mean you'll miss all the time. [Acc] is thus desirable because it allows you to deal more damage during times in an opponent's buff cycle where it'd otherwise be difficult. This forces him to use moar heals/resists prematurely.

It's never not a useful stat, really.

ussultimatum 02-14-2013 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shimmerless (Post 8048961)
The thing is, accuracy isn't an all-or-nothing prospect. Yes, without some kind of snare you're generally always going to have lower accuracy than an opponent's defense, but that only means you'll miss more; it doesn't mean you'll miss all the time. [Acc] is thus desirable because it allows you to deal more damage during times in an opponent's buff cycle where it'd otherwise be difficult. This forces him to use moar heals/resists prematurely.

It's never not a useful stat, really.


I agree with Shimmer.

This is also not a binary question, if you or your team packs enough movement limiters (therefore defense limiters) you may be able to risk dropping your acc some - but that also limits you to making your attacks when your opponent is completely controlled.

Conversely if you're team does not have a lot of movement control, you're going to want higher ACC.

I tend to err on the higher acc side of things, although I've been using ACCx2 CrtHx1 for a while now and keeping an eye on my hit percentages in ACT.

thissler 02-14-2013 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shimmerless (Post 8048961)
The thing is, accuracy isn't an all-or-nothing prospect. Yes, without some kind of snare you're generally always going to have lower accuracy than an opponent's defense, but that only means you'll miss more; it doesn't mean you'll miss all the time. [Acc] is thus desirable because it allows you to deal more damage during times in an opponent's buff cycle where it'd otherwise be difficult. This forces him to use moar heals/resists prematurely.

It's never not a useful stat, really.

It is an all or nothing prospect. I'm not sure why you don't see that. Really read it over again.

Autofire or weak fire is useless and doesn't force anything. I never said you would miss all the time. I just said it was useless. And it is. All that damage will just get healed. Happens all the time and there's even an Obviousland Thread on that very subject. Far be it from me to go against that!

And really read the entire post. You'll add far more damage when you need to with 100% certainty by NOT stacking Acc. And as you can in NO WAY compare Acc to a stat that you DO NOT KNOW the value of, namely Def, how exactly are you basing your argument? And really, you can only miss 75%. And most people are above that anyway. Go hit the charts. See how many hits 30% could possibly give you vs the given ranges of defense. What you will find is that targets that you wouldn't even TRY to alpha already have you far enough upside down that you won't be doing much better than a 25% hit rate anyway, and a target that you would snare is a target that deserves a hugely inflated Crit Death.

And our goal is to destroy the enemy, not give him scratches. Honest. Beam to my ready room and we'll take turns trading Alphas.

wolverine595959 02-14-2013 08:04 AM

I find acc trait usefully on the burst damage weapons, I categorize these weapons as the main go to for a large hit, for example on a escort, DHC and turrets I like CritH and CritD, but if i running a torp I want Acc, or if I am running a DBB for BOL I want Acc, I want maximize those weapons to hit the majority of the time when I am going for the huge hit. Acc the last time I checked, if its higher than the def of the target gets transferred over to CritH.

thissler 02-14-2013 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ussultimatum (Post 8049291)
I agree with Shimmer.

This is also not a binary question, if you or your team packs enough movement limiters (therefore defense limiters) you may be able to risk dropping your acc some - but that also limits you to making your attacks when your opponent is completely controlled.

Conversely if you're team does not have a lot of movement control, you're going to want higher ACC.

I tend to err on the higher acc side of things, although I've been using ACCx2 CrtHx1 for a while now and keeping an eye on my hit percentages in ACT.

And you'd be wrong. Maybe you'd better just get some snares. So you can err on the higher side if you like. Its still erring.

And the bit about limiting attacks to when your target is controlled. Okay. So you consider a high def highly mobile full defended target a GOOD target. Because that's what you're saying. You may want to take a moment and back off of this a bit.

Take your time!!

thissler 02-14-2013 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolverine595959 (Post 8049361)
I find acc trait usefully on the burst damage weapons, I categorize these weapons as the main go to for a large hit, for example on a escort, DHC and turrets I like CritH and CritD, but if i running a torp I want Acc, or if I am running a DBB for BOL I want Acc, I want maximize those weapons to hit the majority of the time when I am going for the huge hit. Acc the last time I checked, if its higher than the def of the target gets transferred over to CritH.

Keep checking. And keep reading. Thats covered in there. And you may want to consider that the Acc stat for BO3 happens to be busted. Just saying.

And really, I have hours of tape saying I got this knocked, in exactly the way I say I do.

What do you have?

ussultimatum 02-14-2013 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thissler (Post 8049371)
And you'd be wrong. Maybe you'd better just get some snares.


Maybe you should test your theory out in an Arena scenario against very heavily defended targets, and not Ker'rat where you can just hide and wait for opportune moments.



Quote:

Originally Posted by thissler (Post 8049371)
And the bit about limiting attacks to when your target is controlled. Okay. So you consider a high def highly mobile full defended target a GOOD target. Because that's what you're saying. You may want to take a moment and back off of this a bit.

No, I'm saying that waiting for the completely controlled, ideal low defense target is not always an option in a 5v5 arena scenario where you have to actually worry about 4 other players helping keep a target alive.




Quote:

Originally Posted by thissler (Post 8049371)
Take your time!!

That's exactly the point. You can't always "take your time" in an arena scenario. Not all us can spend X amount of time cloaked waiting for the perfect kill shot.

ACC helps in situations where you need to brute force kill your target whether they are running some buffs or not.

Of course I'm not advocating going after targets when they have APO/EM/TT/RSP up (although can brute force through these as well).

naevius 02-14-2013 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thissler (Post 8048521)
CAVEAT: Pinned targets seem to get CRIT far more often than they should be. This is only from observations. I don't have 1000 test kills yet. Just saying that if Crit H is already at 50% due to some glitch in acc/def/crit (Nah...COULDN"T BE!) you can see how handy D would be.

Excess acc converts to crit chance, I believe. So if your target is immobilized, it may be the same thing as H, or maybe even better.

I should add that I believe that to be true, but I'm not very sure of it.

redricky 02-14-2013 08:23 AM

This sums up what I've been feeling for a while, but since I took my lessons from your vids and my time in an ungeared Fleet Norgh maybe it's not surprising that I think you're on to something. I did a bad thing with those lessons I guess since I'm flying kind of the anti-BoP lately in the Jem HEC. I tool around trying for holds and massaging GDF until I get somebody stuck and I unload. If I have a BO about to expire I'll toss it at somebody for the heck of it but for the most part I don't take buffed shots at moving targets.

The thing is, I still find myself missing on a BO2 with 1 [Acc] on the DBB while the target is held, so IDK exactly what to think. Maybe I need to give the TB a second longer to get ahold, maybe there's a baked in miss to BO. Anecdotal misses weigh heavily I guess.

Tooling around and looking for holds works fine until I come across arenas where I'm the only non-cloak. Last night I got erased, like the sub-nucs were sandwiched in with about 3 alphas. It made me think about what somebody, maybe you, said about the ON/OFF nature of things. Sub-nuc being one way to turn it off, holds being another. When things are on it makes me wonder if I should actually be shooting at them, given the nature of fleet shields for example.

Um, this might be a nasty question, but what's the effect of a stun on def?
Quote:

Originally Posted by ussultimatum (Post 8049731)
Maybe you should test your theory out in an Arena scenario against very heavily defended targets, and not Ker'rat where you can just hide and wait for opportune moments.

No, I'm saying that waiting for the completely controlled, ideal low defense target is not always an option in a 5v5 arena scenario where you have to actually worry about 4 other players helping keep a target alive.

That's exactly the point. You can't always "take your time" in an arena scenario. Not all us can spend X amount of time cloaked waiting for the perfect kill shot.

ACC helps in situations where you need to brute force kill your target whether they are running some buffs or not.

Of course I'm not advocating going after targets when they have APO/EM/TT/RSP up (although can brute force through these as well).

Maybe I'm doing a disservice to my team but I do wait for opportune moments in arenas.

I don't have time to post more right now, but I think Thissler speaks truth, not The Truth, mind you, because there's two things I'm looking for in a target and only one of them is the possibility of being held. Don't be put off by his use of absolutes in the thread titles; threads that don't stir the pot don't warrant comment.

More later this is interesting g2g. Seriously, stuns = what to def?


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:19 PM.