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-   -   Science Captains in Science Vessels (http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=567101)

ladydragonfury 02-25-2013 01:34 PM

Science Captains in Science Vessels
 
... What's wrong with a Science Captain in a Science Vessel? I read the forums and half of the threads in the Shipyards are about people wanting to buff Cruisers or debuff Escorts, but as soon as science ships are mentioned it's like people are reluctant to talk about them. Like they're the ugly stepchild of ships :S. I don't get it. I don't feel useless in my ship, except maybe on Khitomer Vortex because I'm never sure where to go. Don't have enough damage to take out the generators quickly, don't do enough damage to take out the Cubes quickly, or do enough damage to take out the Probes quickly... Not that I can't take the generators, Cubes or Probes out. It just takes me a while. Tractor Beams, Gravity wells, Tachyon beams, Subnucs, Photonic Fleets, Beam Overload and Torpedo High Yield can only do so much, after all. (Though a buff to Gravity Well would be much appreciated...)

But, on the other hand. That does not make my ship useless. For example, in a premade Khitomer, me and another Captain who had picked up an old ship that she hadn't used in a while and well, long story short ended up having to use MkVi shields. But between us we managed to keep the swarms of Probes out of the Portal. She was in a science ship too. In Hive Onslaught, I and a friend in his Defiant had to use our respective abilities to help each other out. I healed him, put out fires, extended my shields to save his Escort. When it was my turn to get mobbed by Spheres and Probes, he came in and blasted them away from me... does that make a sci ship useless? I think not. It just makes them need a communicative team who work as a team. Come to think of it, that's probably why you don't see many pure sci ships in public STFs. Noone talks, especially if they're just in it for the rewards and just want it over as quick as possible. My science ship has outlived the entirety of Hive Elite, kept Nanite Spheres at bay in Conduit and saved many a team member from exploding by drawing fire, jamming Tractors or simple heals. But still, I don't get it. What's wrong with a Science Captain in a Science Vessel? I do have two Cruisers as well as my two Sci ships, but to be honest, I prefer the Sci ships. Their turnrates are just right for my flight style, I don't think I'd even be comfortable in a Carrier.

thepantsparty 02-25-2013 02:33 PM

The problem with pure science ships is that carriers can do everything a science ship can do while also putting out very good damage. While their turn rate is lower, it's a non-factor in PvE where enemies don't understand how to fly behind you.

szerontzur 02-25-2013 04:50 PM

Science ships are great.. when used like actual science ships.

Problem is, they're a support role - which is a thankless job. Locking down Donatra in KASE is not quantifiable by "numbers", but it makes a huge difference(especially if the lockdown ship also has access to Aceton Beam).

Furthermore, Science ships are not as toothless as most people assume. Most of them don't have access to the tactical boff slots to fully make use of torpedos and mines, but the ones that do(mainly the Vesta and Nebula) are nearly as potent as a proper escort and as tanky as a cruiser - at the same time - and are still able to use their various science abilities.

kimmym 02-25-2013 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thepantsparty (Post 8307431)
The problem with pure science ships is that carriers can do everything a science ship can do while also putting out very good damage. While their turn rate is lower, it's a non-factor in PvE where enemies don't understand how to fly behind you.

This thread hit the nail on the head in one post, I'm impressed :)

When it comes down to it, if I'm flying a "pure sci" ship vs a carrier I'm less effective, even in the much praised Vesta.

thepantsparty 02-25-2013 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ladydragonfury (Post 8310011)
Problem is, they're a support role - which is a thankless job. Locking down Donatra in KASE is not quantifiable by "numbers", but it makes a huge difference(especially if the lockdown ship also has access to Aceton Beam).

Furthermore, Science ships are not as toothless as most people assume. Most of them don't have access to the tactical boff slots to fully make use of torpedos and mines, but the ones that do(mainly the Vesta and Nebula) are nearly as potent as a proper escort and as tanky as a cruiser - at the same time - and are still able to use their various science abilities.

As I said, the issue is that a Recluse or Atrox can accomplish this job just as well while ALSO dealing a good deal more damage.

The Vesta is the lone exception as its ability to equip DHCs lets it output respectable damage (and its hanger slot doesn't hurt either).

imarookie 02-25-2013 08:15 PM

I do fly a sci ship with my main char (fed) - the klingon one is far behind on equipment and stuff. Took me a bit of time last year to grind the fleet ship modules (and had a break from the game for some months) - but I came back last week and still love my Fleet DSSV.

I tried an escort (fed) and the new mirror carrier on the klingon char but
cannot get a feeling for it. So I decided to just stick to the fleet dssv until I can afford that Fleet Nebula.


will definately try out pvp (again) soon but would love to see some builds as examples.

insanerandomnes 02-25-2013 08:37 PM

Science ships have just been nerfed too no end. Personally, I agree. It's not your ship, or your build, it's how you fly it. Everyone in this game goes "Ooooohhh, dual heavy cannons, ooooohh high damage, oooooohhh attack pattern omega."

Thick-skulled dorks. The only reason escorts seem overpowered is cause they're EASY too fly and understand. Kind of like weapons. I'll hazard that with my gaming PC, and good training, I could do more damage from my computer than an army grunt could with an M-16. But most everyone understands how an M-16 works, even if they aren't accurate with it. Not everyone understands computers.

Not everyone understands science ships either. Science ships are debuff and kill ships. Grav well, sub drain, subneuc, tractor beam, tractor repulsors. These skills require you too focus and think outside the box, instead of just "Moodily staring out the window, and pressing the fire button." One of the more interesting setups I've heard of is using grav well and tractor repulsors as shield ignoring damage. Most escorts are able too negate the CC from grav well and repulsors, but I doubt any of them know that despite they can escape, they still recieve damage that goes right past shields.

See? Think outside the box, work with your friends, then you'll see some firepower.

ferdzso0 02-26-2013 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ladydragonfury (Post 8306271)
I don't feel useless in my ship, except maybe on Khitomer Vortex because I'm never sure where to go. Don't have enough damage to take out the generators quickly, don't do enough damage to take out the Cubes quickly, or do enough damage to take out the Probes quickly...

let us just say, in light of the last part of the above sentence, you might not feel useless, but that does not prove the opposite...


Quote:

Originally Posted by ladydragonfury (Post 8306271)
Tractor Beams, Gravity wells, Tachyon beams, Subnucs, Photonic Fleets, Beam Overload and Torpedo High Yield can only do so much, after all. (Though a buff to Gravity Well would be much appreciated...)
.

all sci powers are nerfed to hell, except grav well, and you want to buff it? it is pretty much the onlly offensive sci power, that is actually useful, and does not need a buff or least of all nerf

sci ships are fine, the problems come from sci powers, that are nerfed to hell, and are only there to make the battlefield pretty. you might as well equip your fireworks, and flash them at the borg, and achieve the same, as with a tykens rift

kronosath 02-26-2013 01:18 AM

GW is nerfed too. From exotic damage, only buffed by science skill tree went to kinetic, and from the huge pull effect, now you can escape with low eng power.

It is still useful, but it is nerfed as well.

twam 02-26-2013 01:23 AM

I'm not sure I agree.

When I'm flying sci/sci in stf's I tend to shut down Tac Cubes, using a combination of tykens rift, energy syphon, subsystem targeting and polaron weaponry. Using that setup it's not unheard of to get Donatra to drop shields and sit pretty for everybody to unload their full armaments on.

Drain builds work in stf's, because a half decent team can really lay down the pain on a target when presented with a 10 second interval that shields are offline. Even more so as energy weapons'll generally be offline to, so escorts don't need to watch their moves.

Coupled with grav well and some other tricks, such as EWP on my Wells, I can wipe out raptors before they reach the Kang in CSE, and easily hold off Negh'Vars until the team gets into range.

And when somehow the combination doesn't get me aggro of half the map, as it tends to, I share those heals like mad.

*shrug*

@OP: Sci/sci can definitely work, it's just got much more of a learning curve than escorts tend to have, and it shines in a team setting.

Sure, the sci carriers can perform sci duties fine, but that's a matter of personal preference: I know I saved a great many optionals by juggling fronts, zipping back and forth between targets while laying down CC skills, relying on my mobility to prevent bad things from happening while debuffing the team targets.


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