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 bareel 03-10-2013 05:16 PM

Turn Rate Maths (need help)

So I was bored and decided to try and find out how the game calculates turn rates for fun and wow. I am either missing something huge or their may be a bug of sorts.

The method STO uses for it's math is pretty basic and universal across many systems including shield totals, boff abilities, shield regen, weapon damage, and several others I'm sure that I'm forgetting about. You have a base value, stuff adds to that base value typically calculated as a % of it, then that total gets multiplied by any true modifiers to give a final value.

For the test I used a Tac Oddy and Defiant. I learned that the vast majority of modifiers are additive in nature I will list below. To find this I simply went to tribble, cleared out any skills that may interfere, and then watched how the numbers changed when I methodically added each item.

- Engine Power
- [Turn] mod on Engines
- Starship Impulse Thruster Skill
- RCS Consoles
- Turn Rate boosting Boff abilities

The way those all work is that they give a flat bonus that is added to the base and to one another. Meaning if you start at 10 turn rate and use an RCS console to gain another 2 turn rate you will have 12. If you instead raise engine power by enough to gain 2 turn rate for a total of 12 and then add the same RCS console it will still only provide 2 turn rate for a total of 14.

I also realized some strange things that make absolutely no sense to me.

- Boff buffs do not stack. If you activate EM3, Aux2Damp, and APO you will only gain the boost from one, not all three.
- Engine type, rank, and quality have absolutely no effect at all.

Now here is where it gets really weird. As I stated before I used a base Defiant and a Tactical Oddessy. In the chart below I will compare the changes in turn rates.

Base Amount: Defiant (17) Oddy (6)
In Space 25 Power Mod: Defiant (20.7/+3.7) Oddy (6.8/+.8)
+30% RCS Mod: Defiant (24.9/+4.2) Oddy (7.7/+.9)
+Turn Engine Mod: Defiant (22.1/+1.4) Oddy (7.1/+.3)
+141% Aux 2 Damp Mod: Defiant (40.5/+19.8) Oddy (11.0/+4.2)
All above combined: Defiant (46.1) Oddy (12.2)

Now this makes absolutely no sense to me. So the next logical step is to find some %s and see if they make any sense.

% of listed base / Defiant / Oddy
Power Mod: D (22%) / O (13%)
RCS Mod: D (25%) / O (15%)
+Turn Mod: D (8%) / O (5%)
Aux 2 Damp: D (115%) / (70%)
Combined: D (171%) / (103%)

Ok that was interesting. If the defiant is getting 100% of the bonus so to speak that means the oddessy is only receiving about 60% of the bonus. The only other factor I can think of is the inertia values. Defiant has 70 while the Oddy has 20. The only conclusion I can make is that the inertia value is somehow creating the difference in which case...

Why are slow turning ships penalized twice? ARGH. It is the same as the beam issue they have lower damage to begin with, which is fine, but then the energy drain mechanics give them a double penalty whammy which messes it all up. /rant off.

But no seriously does anyone know the role inertia plays or am I missing something?

 maximus614 03-10-2013 05:51 PM

I often wondered what inertia did,,and im still not sure.

 lostusthorn 03-10-2013 06:23 PM

Inertia in game is the time your ship needs to change speed and direction.
The higher your inertia rating, the more direct and quicker your ship reacts to movement changes.

 mandoknight89 03-10-2013 06:27 PM

Subtract 3 from your "base" turn rate. That's the ship's "actual" base turn rate, the one that's used for calculating your final turn rate (the one that's used for the multipliers and RCS and whatnot). The 3 is the "free" turn rate that a ship has even when its impulse engines are removed.

What Inertia does is that it makes your ship accelerate more quickly. Ships with relatively high turn rates but low Inertia values (which corresponds to a high physical inertia... STO Devs kinda messed up kinematics so that those unfamiliar with physics would see that high number = good) will "power slide" as the nose turns but the mass of the ship continues moving on the previous direction, only slowly turning its velocity to match its direction. It's most noticeable with a ship like the Bortasqu' trying to pull a reverse-impulse maneuver (or something similar) as Evasive Maneuvers wears off.

 bareel 03-10-2013 09:00 PM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by mandoknight89 (Post 8527001) Subtract 3 from your "base" turn rate. That's the ship's "actual" base turn rate, the one that's used for calculating your final turn rate (the one that's used for the multipliers and RCS and whatnot). The 3 is the "free" turn rate that a ship has even when its impulse engines are removed. What Inertia does is that it makes your ship accelerate more quickly. Ships with relatively high turn rates but low Inertia values (which corresponds to a high physical inertia... STO Devs kinda messed up kinematics so that those unfamiliar with physics would see that high number = good) will "power slide" as the nose turns but the mass of the ship continues moving on the previous direction, only slowly turning its velocity to match its direction. It's most noticeable with a ship like the Bortasqu' trying to pull a reverse-impulse maneuver (or something similar) as Evasive Maneuvers wears off.
Thank you! That works out perfectly mate.

Defiant base = 14 *.3 = 4.2 which is what the 30% RCS consoles established.
Oddy base = 3 * .3 = .9 which also matches up.

A turn Mod would then be a 10% boost which matches up with other gear mods. Skill I think is 15% then and so forth. I will do more testing later to list all the actual % mods at some point unless there is a post already done about it that I missed.

Thanks again!

 mandoknight89 03-10-2013 10:54 PM

The "fix" only helps expose the problem more... it's proportionately cutting out even more turn rate modification from low-turn ships (primarily Fed Cruisers, Carriers, and the Bortasqu'), while having a comparatively minor effect on high-turn ships (that is, Escorts and BoPs).

I know it works this way with RCS, I'm not entirely sure with the others (I haven't bothered to run the math), but I have my suspicions.

 bareel 03-10-2013 11:13 PM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by mandoknight89 (Post 8529041) The "fix" only helps expose the problem more... it's proportionately cutting out even more turn rate modification from low-turn ships (primarily Fed Cruisers, Carriers, and the Bortasqu'), while having a comparatively minor effect on high-turn ships (that is, Escorts and BoPs). I know it works this way with RCS, I'm not entirely sure with the others (I haven't bothered to run the math), but I have my suspicions.
It does from the testing I did. That -3 to find base works perfectly to model all the things I tested.

 p2wsucks 03-11-2013 12:37 AM

"- Boff buffs do not stack. If you activate EM3, Aux2Damp, and APO you will only gain the boost from one, not all three.
- Engine type, rank, and quality have absolutely no effect at all." from OP

Engines matter for turnrate, idk why you didn't see this. I've stacked turnrate buffs before. What map are you testing on, is it in system space? What engine power levels were you using?

Also, fyi the Omega shield energy wake procs adjust the ship's inertia value. I'm not sure what if anything else does.

 dalnar83 03-11-2013 01:14 AM

It was something like that if i remember right. There was also some modifier, but that had to do something with old skill system, so it probably changed. But the basic formula was something like this

3 + (Turn rate -3) * (1 + (all turn bonuses in percentages/100) + Engine power level / 100) + turn bonus of your engine

However, I saved that file when I did the turn rate research in like season 2-3. The thread is probably hidden deep in the "archived" threads.

All of the turn bonuses stack. A 50% increase to turn rate its a 0,5 turn multiplied by your actual base turn rate. So a Ship with 6 turn rate, gets +3 from the bonus, while the ship with 22turn rate *spits on the ground* gets +11.

That means if you stacked turn bonuses for total of 200%, a Galaxy would get meager +12 turn while the bug *spits again* would get +44 just from the modifiers.

But I could be totaly wrong about this, as I said, last time I did proper research on this, it was like season 3.

 frtoaster 03-12-2013 12:04 AM

If you are moving at 1/4 impulse or greater or at full reverse, then your turn rate is approximately

turn_rate = base_turn_rate + (base_turn_rate - 3) * (0.38 * impulse_thrusters_skill / 99 + engine_power / 100 + bonus_from_consoles + bonus_from_engines).

I'm reasonably sure the above formula is accurate, though I haven't tested turn rates in a while. The factor of 0.38 modifying impulse thrusters skill might be a little off. The above formula doesn't include boff abilities; I would also be interested in knowing how they fit into this.

Skills and bonuses also affect the turn rate at full stop, but because the effect is so small, I cannot infer what the exact formula is.

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