An Introduction to the Gorn
AN INTRODUCTION TO THE GORN
After conducting extensive research on the Gorn to develop General Ssharki and his bridge officers, I am struck by how little source material there is to draw from. Memory Beta has made a good effort to compile everything known about this species, but even that site is incomplete and contains many inconsistencies.
Therefore, I have made my own attempt to compile all of the knowledge I have gleaned from the following sources (arranged according to hierarchy): Canon (on-screen; TOS: "Arena" and ENT: "In a Mirror, Darkly - Pt. II"), STO's in-game canon and lore, Soft-canon literature, and Non-canon sources (video games, RPG guides and unlicensed literature, principally the Starfleet Command video game series). The rest I back-filled based on my own observations of the Gorn in-game or drawing logical conclusions based on all available sources or else just using my imagination.
Please note that I have selectively rejected certain sources that conflict with sources further up in the hierarchy. For example, STO's lore contradicts certain licensed novels such as the "Destiny" trilogy and its follow-ons including the "Typhon Pact" mini-series. Therefore by my frame of reference the Gorn never joined the Typhon Pact because the Typhon Pact never existed, and any additional background information on the Gorn these novels may provide is suspect at best.
I hope this guide will be a helpful resource in providing background context to fans of my LC characters, and also in helping other fanfic and LC authors to develop their own Gorn.
Anthrobiologists of the Federation Science Council have classified the Gornarian Archosaur (Homo lacertae) as reptilian humanoid species, similar to the Saurians. The Gorn themselves however do not acknowledge any relationship or common ancestry with humanoids, rather believing that they were created separately from any other sentient race. (See The Four Sides of Life: Faith) They are born from eggs into one of three biologically distinct castes with variations in size and possibly anatomy. (See The Castes) They are covered with a thick, scaly hide, ranging in color from yellowish-green to dark green to greenish-blue. Their throats and bellies are paler.
Note: the asterisks (*) indicate the enclosed information refers specifically to the Soldier caste seen in-game and it is unknown if the same is true of the other castes.)
The Gorn maturation rate is quite slow compared to other sentient races. *Gorn children develop at a rate roughly 3/4ths that of Humans and 1/2 that of Klingons. (I.e., a 16-year-old Gorn is the equivalent of a 12-y.-o. Human or a 8-y.-o. Klingon.) They attain adulthood at about 24 years of age on average.*
The Gorn are extremely long-lived; their average life expectancy is around three hundred years and it is not uncommon to find Gorn who have lived for well over five centuries.
*A distinctive feature of the Gorn anatomy is the crest, which in males grows out into several head-spines reaching up to 16cm in length. (The head-spines begin growing when males reach sexual maturity.) The crest is very sensitive, particularly for young males.*
Like terrestrial reptiles, the Gorn continually grow throughout their lifetimes so pinning down average size is difficult. Also, the castes are known to be differentiated by size. *Growth seems to slow considerably beyond around age 50, however. Note that there is a distinct age difference between being an adult at 24 and "fully grown" at 50* The average 50-year-old male soldier is about 2.2m tall (7' 3") and has a mass of 215kg. (474lbs.) As with terrestrial reptiles, a sexual dimorphism is expressed in the females being somewhat larger than the males *(by about 10%, all other factors being equal.)* Because they continue to grow over their extremely long lifespans, the Gorn can eventually reach truly enormous sizes. An elder female Soldier may easily reach 3.6m (nearly 12') and 460kg (over 1000lbs)
In spite of their massive bulk, the Gorn can move extremely quickly when they need to, much like terrestrial crocodilians. They will often lunge or sprint in combat, and are capable of accelerating from a standstill to over 50kph almost instantly. However, being cold-blooded, such action does sap their energy reserves considerably, and so if they will usually move much more slowly to conserve their strength for emergencies. This gives casual observers the illusion that they are by nature slow and lumbering. They are not. Over short distances and time intervals they are at least as fast and agile as any humanoid - comparable to linemen in the Human game of American Football.
The Gorn body is extremely resilient, capable of shrugging terrific blows that would kill any humanoid and even surviving a large chemically-propelled projectile being fired into the chest point-blank. Furthermore, their cells regenerate at an amazing rate, allowing them to quickly recover from significant injuries with little scarring.
Humanoid prejudices lead many people to assume that the Gorn are slow witted. This is a potentially fatal mistake, as the Gorn are best described as being "fiercely intelligent." This was demonstrated at first contact in the 23rd century by the fact that Gorn technology was at least equal and in some ways superior to that of Starfleet. The Gorn of that time were even able to generate feedback pulse with a Starfleet tricorder's sensor scans, causing that tricorder to overload its energy cells and explode. They also had sophisticated voice duplicator technology.
The Gorn internal physiology is roughly analogous to terrestrial reptiles. Their organs are large, proportionate to the rest of their bodies, but they lack any redundancy. (According to one source, those of the Technical caste have multiple stomachs, but this is solely to aid digestion.)
The Gorn posses sharp claws on all four limbs as well as an array of very sharp teeth set in powerful jaws. The Gorn will often use these natural weapons in combat. Dr. Phlox of the Mirror Universe once quipped that the Gorn's bite was comparable to that of a Velociraptor (an extinct terrestrial dinosaur.) This would be grossly inaccurate, considering the true Velociraptor mongoliensis was roughly the size of a large turkey. (However, Mirror Phlox may have only known of the species from its portrayal in Earth's popular media, in which it is usually depicted as being roughly equal in height to the Gorn the Mirror NX-01 encountered.)
- In ancient times (500,000+ years ago) the Gorn or their ancestors ruled a large swath of the Beta Quadrant and the fringes of the neighboring Alpha Quadrant.
- For some unknown reason they regressed technologically until they lost the ability for space travel and their territory shrank until they inhabited only three planets.
- Eventually, the Gorn on at least one of these planets rediscovered warp drive and set out to explore their corner of space, soon rediscovering their cousins on nearby worlds. (Despite some evolutionary divergence, they were fundamentally genetically identical. This may be the genesis of the Gorn caste system.)
- The reunited Gorn were able to determine that none of their worlds was their true Homeworld. They set out in search of it and found Gornar (or S'sgaron in their language) which had fossil records establishing that their ancestors had lived there for millions of years.
- The Gorn reestablished their Homeworld and set out to recolonize the surrounding space, claiming any planet that had evidence of prior habitation by the Gorn.
- Their first contact with another species was with the Paravians some 20,000 years ago. Hostilities ensued and the Paravians were wiped out.
- Sometime around Earth's 8th Century AD the Romulans began to encroach on Gorn space. The Romulans may have began to colonize several uninhabited worlds claimed by the Gorn. The Romulans were eventually repelled from Gorn territory after a centuries-long war. (The Gorn's encounter with the Romulans clouded their view of mammals and led to a xenophobic attitude which permeated the culture for many years to follow.)
- By the mid-22nd Century, the Gorn had made contact and established trade relations with the Orions. By this time their centralized government is known as the Gorn Hegemony.
- First Contact with the United Federation of Planets was disastrous, to say the least. In 2267 the Gorn reacted to an incursion into their territory and sent a ship to eradicate the Human remote outpost established on Cestus III. Seeking to gauge the strength of this new species, the Gorn lure the Federation starship Enterprise to the planet. After a brief firefight on space and on the ground, the Gorn retreat to report to their commanders. The Enterprise pursues, and the chase passes near a previously uncharted system inhabited by the Metrons. Sensing unacceptable levels of hostility, the Metrons transport the Gorn Captain and Captain Kirk of the Enterprise to a suitably-prepared planet to settle their differences mano-a-mano. Kirk defeats the Gorn, but spares his life.
- Following this inauspicious encounter, relations between the Federation and the Hegemony become much more cordial. Eventually an agreement is reached to cooperatively colonize Cestus III. In spite of their territoriality, the Gorn prove to be considerate neighbors.
- In 2374 a coup d'etat takes place. The Enterprise-E was in orbit of Gornar to enlist the Hegemony's support to fight the Dominion. King Xrathis (the ruling monarch) was agreeable, but a rival faction called the Black Crests disagreed violently. The ruling party was brutally toppled, and the isolationist Black Crests moved against Federation colonies on Cestus III and Elkauron II. After suffering defeat in the attempted invasions, the warlord of the Black Crest faction agrees to settle things in a hand-to-hand fight with a champion of Captain Picard's choosing. Data defeats the warlord, King Xrathis is reinstated, and the Gorn Hegemony joins the Federation Alliance toward the end of that year.
- By 2379 Hegemony-Federation relations had normalized to the point where the Gorn maintained an embassy on Earth.
- In 2384 (Stardate 61829.83) acting against orders a Gorn ship attacks the I.K.S. Quv in the space between the Hegemony and the Klingon Empire. 207 Klingons die but King Xrathis refuses to surrender the surviving Klingons. In response, Chancellor Martok sends additional ships to their common border and expels Gorn diplomats.
- In 2386 King Xrathis dies of natural cause, his son, Crown Prince Slathis, ascends to the throne. He re-enforces the Gorn-Klingon border. Several skirmishes are reported soon after.
- That same year on Stardate 63504.74, the Klingon-Gorn War begins when the KDF bombards the Gorn colony at Gila IV. After two days of bloody battle with the defenders the Klingon Empire conquers the planet. Due to the worsening relationship between the Hegemony and the Klingon Empire, the United Federation of Planets offers to mediate talks between the two powers. The conflict quiets after the battle.
- In 2389, the war erupts again when the Gorn and Klingons struggle for control of the Gamma Orionis System. King Slathis negotiates a beneficial deal with the Nausicaans: For contributing weapons and ships the Nausicaans get the rights to several asteroid belts and a substantial payment. Despite the reinforcement of the Gorn military the Klingons refuse to surrender the system and win several battles. Starfleet Intelligence projects that the conflict won't end anytime soon.
- Due to increased Nausicaan raids in the Gorn-Federation borderland, in 2390 the Federation again offers to mediate between the warring states at a neutral location. However, the preliminary talks drag on for weeks and come to an abrupt halt when Chancellor Martok demands Starfleet to remove its ships from the Romulan-Klingon border.
- The following year, Starfleet submits to Martok's demand and reassigns its ships to fight the Nausicaan raiders. In response, the Klingon Chancellor agrees to participate in peace talks. Representatives from the Klingons, Gorn and Nausicaans meet at Deep Space K-7. Despite initial progress the talks fail when Gorn Ambassador Zogozin is seriously injured by a hidden explosive device two days into the conference. Station security finds evidence that Klingon extremist J'dah is responsible for the attack, however, he is killed by someone unknown.
- Following the failure of the talks the Klingons advance deeper into Gorn territory. To protect their Homeworld the Gorn recall ships from several outlying colonies. King Slathis tries to hire Lethean mercenaries but outside analysts doubt the Gorn have the resources to pay both Nausicaans and Letheans.
- In 2392, Cestus III hosts renewed peace talks between the Gorn and Klingons. Again, the premilinary talks don't come to a conclusion. On Stardate 69259.56 the hopes of peace finally collapse when a Gorn and Nausicaan fleet attacks the Klingon world of Ogat. The KDF manages to repel the invaders more than two weeks later and both military forces now attack on sight.
- Chancellor J'mpok reluctantly agrees to a third round of peace talks in 2397. On Stardate 75705.90 (2398), the Federation-mediated peace talks between the Hegemony and the Empire are disrupted by an explosion that rocks the resort on Casperia Prime where the talks are being held. Again, a Klingon extremist group is found responsible for the dishonorable attack. The Federation attempts to restart the peace talks, but both the Klingons and the Gorn recall their delegations and the cease-fire ends.
- In 2399 the I.K.S. Kang returns to Qo'noS, proving the Council of the Gorn Hegemony has been infiltrated by Undine. Chancellor J'mpok order a full-scale invasion of Gorn space the day after. The border is stormed by a combined Klingon-Orion fleet within weeks. The simmering conflict erupts into open warfare when Gorn and Nausicaan ships clash with the invaders in multiple systems. The Klingons manage to capture the Gorn freeport world of Seudath at this time.
- By 2400 the Gorn-Nausicaan fleet has repelled the invader's advance, earning respect for their ferocity in battle. Victory for the Klingons is almost assured but does come with a high blood toll. The Federation Council declares the war to be unlawful but the censure is ignored by the belligerents. In 2401 the war settles into a stalemate, but by 2402 the tide of Klingon and Orion ships break through the defenders lines blockade Gornar.
- On Stardate 80344.81 (2403) the Klingons manage to make planetfall when the web of transport inhibtors protecting the Gorn Homeworld fails. Remaining Gorn forces defend key areas while the civilian population arms itself. However, the Klingons spare the militias and assault the capital city. Twenty-eight hours after the planetary invasion began, the royal palace is stormed, King Slathis surrenders and the Gorn Hegemony falls. General Klag of the KDF's Fifth Fleet becomes the military governor of Gornar stabilizes the situation there in the following week. He agrees to lift martial law orders for the civilian population. The Klingons treat the population remarkably civilized. Chancellor J'mpok meets with King Slathis and broadcasts a message throughout the entire Hegemony, revealing the scale of Undine infiltration of the Gorn Minister's Council and military. These infiltrators are executed. Despite demands by hardliners in the Klingon High Council, J'mpok chooses not to have the royal family executed. Rather, he offers them self-rule as long as they swear loyalty to the Empire. Slathis agrees and is given a non-voting seat in the High Council. The Klingon Fifth Fleet is withdrawn from Gorn space.
- Now involved with the Empire, the Hegemony participates in the Third Federation-Klingon War. In 2405, King Slathis brokers a deal between the Nausicaans and Klingons, resulting in the signing of a non-aggression and mutual defense pact. The Hegemony invades Sherman's Planet on Stardate 82626.64. However, Starfleet is able to repel the attack. The Gorn also annexes Cestus III. Starfleet masses ships to defend the world and its population. What could have been a brutal battle is prevented when the Gorn population of Cestus III persuade the invasion force to allow the Federation colonists to evacuate.
- By 2409, some Gorn have begun to rebel against the Klingon Empire, staging attacks on Klingon starbases and other military targets.
The Caste System
The Gorn are divided into three biologically-distinct castes: the Soldiers, the Intellectuals and the Technicals.
Little is known about these castes according to source material. The one soft-canon novel which goes into any detail about the Gorn caste system at all is Titan/Typhon Pact novel "Seize the Fire." In addition to being invalidated by STO's timeline, this book seems to contradict virtually everything else known about the Gorn (including some screen canon!) and some of the concepts introduced are simply ludicrous. Therefore I have very carefully cherry-picked the aspects of Gorn culture that make sense and binned the rest of the book. I was forced to draw much of my own conclusions based on what is known of Gorn military and scientific prowess and their political and social structure.
The castes are considered "separate but equal" in Gorn society, as every caste is acknowledged to fill a vital role within the society at large. Interbreeding between castes is not only genetically possible, but actually encouraged as hybrids provide much needed diversification of skills. (Due to size differences, a pairing between a Soldier and a Technical is impractical, unless the Soldier is young and the Technical is an elder, or unless they were already hybrids and therefore closer in size.) Gorn hatchlings are always born into their father's caste. Children undergo caste-specific education in order to prepare them for any career available to their caste.
These are the warriors of the Hegemony. To serve in the Gorn Defense Command infantry or as an officer in the navy you must be born into the Soldier caste. Conversely, every Soldier is required by Gorn law to either enlist in the GDC or apply to a War College by their 30th birthday. They are required to serve for no fewer than fifty years, and after one hundred years of service they become eligible for pension benefits. Retired Soldiers often start second careers in police forces, colonial militia, and consulting. Soldier hybrids may also become very successful scientists, surgeons, engineers and executives. This caste is physically the largest.
Despite their name, the Intellectuals are only marginally more intelligent than the other castes. They are the least populous and are physically midway in size between the Soldiers and Technicals. They are required to attend a university by their 30th birthday. They follow careers in politics, education, science, medicine, commerce, clergy and the arts. Hybrids may also serve as administrators, executives, engineers or architects.
Though less prestigious than the other castes, the Technicals are arguably the most necessary for the Gorn society to function. They handle everything from common labor and mining to infrastructure support and raising crops and livestock. Consequently, they are the most numerous caste as well as the smallest in stature. Hybrids make excellent supervisors, engineers, or NCOs in GDC. The only specific legal requirement for the Technical caste is that they must either begin a career or pursue higher education by their 30th birthday.
As mentioned above, a Hybrid is the offspring of parents from two different castes, and such parings are encouraged for the diversification of skills that result. The six hybrid types are as follows:
- Science-Soldiers: these result from a Soldier father and an Intellectual mother. They make excellent commanding officers, medical officers, and obviously science officers.
- Engineer-Soldiers: the offspring of a Soldier father and a Technical mother. Difficult to produce due to the size difference, but not as difficult as the converse. It is made easier if one or both parents are hybrids themselves. Obviously these hybrids make excellent combat engineers and engineering officers.
- Warrior-Intellectual: the progeny of a Soldier mother and an Intellectual father. The Royal Family line is made up almost entirely of such hybrids. Politics, education, administration and medicine are all among many valid career paths for these hybrids.
- Techie-Intellectual: the child of a Intellectual father and a Technical mother. Most of these end up being engineers, architects, educators, merchants or public administrators.
- Military-Technical: as mentioned the coupling of a Soldier mother and Technical father is not usually practical due the size difference, unless the parents are hybrids themselves ad/or if the mother is much younger than the father. These hybrids are highly sought-after as non-combatant non-commissioned officers and especially as shipboard engineers. They also often serve aboard commercial shipping and not uncommonly command civilian cargo vessels.
- Poly-Technical: an Intellectual mother and a Technical father will produce this common hybrid, which forms the bulk of the Gorn industrial workforce.
As mentioned, hybrids often produce other hybrids, but since all Gorn default into the three castes, there are is no further breakdown of hybrid pairings like Warrior-Intel-Poly-Technical. For example, my characters Ssharki and Cal are both Engineer-Soldier hybrids. But their parents were also hybrids. Ssharki's father was a Science-Soldier and his mother a Military-Technical, making him two parts Soldier, one part Intellectual and only one part Technical, accounting for his less-tech-more-guns attitude. Cal on the other hand, was also born of a Science-Soldier father but his mother was a Poly-Technical, making him two parts Intellectual and only one part Soldier. This accounts for his engineering genius.
The Four Sides of Life
In many Gorn homes you will find four candles constantly burning. These candles represent the idea of the Four Sides of Life: Family, Honor, Service and Faith. This concept is the foundation on which the Gorn society is built.
Family is of paramount importance to the Gorn. The Gorn mate for life, and reproduce slowly. (Females typically lay only one egg every six years on average, and eggs take over two years to incubate.) However, the Gorn remain fertile until death. Due to this fact and along with their extremely long lifespans, it is not at all uncommon to have siblings born hundreds of years apart. Two Gorn could be the same age, and one could be the other's great-great-great-uncle.
The Gorn are patriarchal, and fathers always have the final say in what is best for the family. Children remain close to their parents and siblings through their entire lives. Immediate family members are to be counted on to defend one another from any threat or peril. Children are raised to respect and obey their parents and older siblings. It is the responsibility of the children to care for their parents in their old age. If the parents of a Gorn child (under 24) are deceased, responsibility for the care of that child falls on the oldest sibling. Adoption is also common in these cases. Often single, older Gorn (widows or unmarried retirees) will adopt and care for orphans.
Many thousands of young Gorn were orphaned during the war with the Klingons. When the war ended, the Klingons conscripted many of these orphans, either not realizing or not caring that the Gorn mature at only half the rate that Klingons do and that these children were not ready for military service. Ssharki adopted and rescued two of these war-orphan/child-soldiers, Sway and Cal.
The Gorn concept of what is honorable differs greatly from the Klingon's honor. There is great variety among the Gorn when it comes to personal codes of honor. Universal however is the idea that no Gorn shall take a life without just cause.
The idea of service to something greater than yourself is a core ideal shared by all Gorn. What exactly they serve will vary greatly according to the individual. It could be the King or the family, or it could just be their commanding officer.
The Gorn believe that when the universe was new, two great beings made their nest in the Milky Way Galaxy. They are called S'Yahazah the Egg-Bringer and the Great Father (or The Nameless One or He That Is Not Named.) After mating, the female laid many eggs, which the Great Father then tried to eat. S'Yahazah, being the bigger of the two, pushed the Great Father out of the nest and off into intergalactic space. She then hid her eggs on S'sagon (Gornar) and out of these eggs hatched the first Gorn.
S'Yahazah is revered by the Gorn as the one who brings mothers their eggs. It is said that every Gorn's spirit has descended from S'Yahazah through the egg, and that the spirit returns to S'Yahazah when they die. (It is unclear whether the Gorn view this as some sort of afterlife, or a process of reincarnation, or both, or neither.) There is at least one case of a Gorn praying that S'Yahazah guide the spirit of a fallen Bajoran comrade to the Temple of the Prophets, implying that the Gorn acknowledge the validity of other religions and suppose that S'Yahazah has the power to intercede on behalf of anyone's soul. (When this Gorn was later killed in action, several Bajorans supplanted S'Yahazah to allow his spirit to enter the Temple as well. (I'd like to think that S'Yahazah would permit this.)
As for the Great Father, he is not quite a devil figure in the Gorn religion - it's more that he's not acknowledged as having any power at all. Although Gorn mothers will often threaten their children that the Great Father will eat them if they don't behave.
There's a variety of religious rituals (some held annually, others at irregular intervals) and there is a priesthood order which conducts religious affairs, but the details of this are not at all clear.
- The Gorn Hegemony is governed by a Constitutional Monarchy, consisting of a King who serves as the head of state, a Council of Ministers who serve at his pleasure, and a parliament elected by the people. Voting in biannual elections is compulsory for all adult Gorn.
- Scale color is hereditary and those with bluish scales are said to be spiritually pure and specially blessed by S'Yahazah. All members of the Royal Family have blue scales, as do the priests. (Ssharki inherited his blue scales from his mother. Cal has this genetic trait as well.)
- The Gorn prefer hot, dry and windy climates. But they also enjoy a good soak. Urban Gorn will visit public soak-pools (similar to the public baths of many Earth cultures) and wealthy or influential Gorn will often have soak-pools in their homes. Gorn living in rural areas will often visit nearby lakes, rivers or seashores.
- The Gorn do not share the humanoid notion of modesty. (Probably because like terrestrial reptiles their genitalia is completely internal unless they are suitably aroused.) However they do wear clothing to denote function, status or rank. (A 23rd-century Gorn Captain wore a particularly gaudy gold tunic encrusted with rubies and other gemstones.)
- At least one Gorn colony world used a type of crystal called the szeket as a form of currency in the mid-23rd Century.
- Despite being viewed as isolationist xenophobes, the Gorn maintain freeports on several outlying colonies from which they conduct trade with other species. It is not clear exactly what they export besides the alcoholic beverage meridor (the finest in the galaxy, according to one Orion) but they do possess great mineral wealth on worlds and asteroids within their territory.
- The Gorn are noted for patience and pragmatism being near-universal racial traits. Eidetic memory is also common in the species to varying degrees.
- The Gorn enjoy strategy games that take a long time to complete. (One Gorn complained that his match of three-dimensional chess with a Vulcan was over too fast.) They also like athletic competitions that require strategies for success. (I imagine they would have picked up baseball from Cestus III and loved it.)
- The Gorn often take a long time to make up their minds, but once they set themselves to a task it is best not to get in their way.
- The Gorn are primarily carnivorous but will eat almost anything. They generally are not adverse to trying new things. They do prefer non-replicated food, however.
- Traditionally, female Soldiers are never placed in a position where they would have to make a life-or-death command decision. Females are revered as life-givers, and it is believed that the burden of sending someone to die should fall to a male.
- It is possible that the KDF does not permit female Gorn to serve aboard their ships because they are afraid that they would not fit.
Thanks for reading, and I hope you found this guide helpful to understanding the mysterious Gorn. :cool: ~ Sander
Very good! Gorn have always been one of the races that have fascinated me, and I applaud your very thorough research and the presentation of it.
I'm curious to know what kind of on-screen canon violations "Seize the Fire" committed. Also, when referencing velociraptors, there were several species of dinosaur similar enough to velociraptors that they are sometimes classified as velociraptors and are closer to the size of Gorn, including the Deinonychus and Utahraptor.
Wow, that's an absolutely fantastic resource, thank you for taking the time to collate and present it, I'm sure many writers will find it useful :) I would just like to publicly state that the piece which I am soon to post, which is an extremely similar vein, is merely the result of coincidental timing, and not intended as any form of crude imitation :D
Great job synthesizing/collating all that material from such disparate sources. The idea of Gorn as baseball fans is for some reason immensely amusing to me. :)
Can you imagine gorn football?
It's a shame there's no real way to get a visual for this guide because frankly it's really well done. I would have loved to the different species and classes of gorn. While the game itself has a lot of problems they do show the Gorn in a similar light as being technologically advanced as well as the different sizes and classes including the females. It would be interesting to see these things in a non JJ trek manor.
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