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-   -   Concerned about the fate of small fleets (http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=675081)

tilarta 05-13-2013 02:13 PM

Concerned about the fate of small fleets
 
Okay, since the last topic got locked because it was out of date (I don't understand the american date system!), here's a repost because I couldn't find a more current topic to re-iterate my concerns.


I'm one of the Leaders of a relatively small Fleet.

For background, we have a membership list of around 60 members, but over time, the number of active members has dwindled to around 5 or so.

And of those 5, the two active contributors are me and another leader.

We've been making quite nice progress so far, we've gotten all 3 Starbase fields to T3 and the Embassy Fields to T2.

But then the fun of the ride ended as soon as I looked at the individual cost of the upgrades.

I don't remember what it costs to upgrade a Starbase to T3, but I did memorize what it takes to upgrade an Embassy to T2.

10500 Fleet Marks and 1000000 Dilithium.

The first one can be done given time, but the second one, well, I have doubts we'll ever be able to collect that much Dilithium!


Now, to be clear, I like my fleet, because it feels more personal that I know everyone who is in it, instead of having a large number of people who are just names on a list.

Also, for better or worse, I commit to a Fleet, out of loyalty and responsibility to the members.

So, I'm not going to abandon it no matter what.


But now I feel like I'm being punished for my commitment to these ideals.


And I'm also painfully aware that recruitment is tougher now, because everyone wants the T5 fleets for the fleet ships and the Elite Gear.


I'm thinking the system needs to be rebalanced a heck of a lot to level the playing field, so to speak.

Basing it on members wouldn't be a good mechanic, because technically we're a fleet of 60+members.

And no, I don't kick out inactives, because that's what appeals to our members, come and go as you please, you'll always have a place with us, even if you are absent for a long time.

Basing it on active contributions would be a better method, having the system scan the contributors per month and saying, only 3 people contributed this month, so they qualify for small fleet status.

And have it scale to the number of contributors, the less there are, the cheaper the costs.


And yes, I am aware that the large fleets (and members of said fleets) are actively roadblocking this proposal.

I'm thinking they're just being egotistical, because they don't want small fleets to achieve T5.

And there's possibly a selfish angle there, they want to dissolve the small fleets so they can absorb their members.

shredder75 05-13-2013 03:37 PM

You have some wonky assumptions about larger fleets.

For one, their rosters tend to be quite full so absorbing a smaller fleet isn't really an option. Nevermind the fact that they're far more selective on who they admit and usually have a limited contribution level before anyone even becomes a full member and/or has access to the fleet stores. A few big fleets spam for recruiting, but most do not. Quality over quantity.

Second, large fleets have no reason to block smaller fleet progression. This was a common misconception in EQ as well and the truth of the matter was, the big guilds in EQ never even socialized or otherwise thought of the smaller guilds because their progression was so far ahead and they were in places the others had no access to, that it was a non factor. Large fleets tend to do fleet actions and ESTF without pugging, and many have general chat disabled. Most have no idea you even exist, even if you spam the heck out of ESD.

Third, the progression is what it is. They made T3 relatively accessable even to small fleets which opens the door to the majority of content that Starbases have to offer. The fact that you only have 2-3 people actually contributing is more of a result of poor recruiting practices than actually being a problem with the system. A small fleet isn't 2-3 contributors, otherwise what's the point of joining a small fleet if you can do the same with a bunch of alts?

Lastly, Cryptic likely views "small fleets" as groups of 20-80 people or so who are mostly active and mostly contributing. Smaller ones fall off the grid because the system wasn't designed with that in mind. They want people to form into larger groups and work towards a common goal, rather than cluster into small alt armies for bank space and whatnot.

My advice to you is to start recruiting and looking for quality members. The likelyhood of the system being altered down to the point of where a half dozen people can attain T4+ status is likely not going to happen because Cryptic doesn't want alt armies exploiting the system.

They've already made some adjustments to smooth things out. Be happy you'll never have to go through the Heart of Targ nightmare. ;)

mcconna 05-13-2013 04:46 PM

My fleet that I am in isn't a large fleet either (Around maybe 20 active players on a good night). However, we are now working on T4 Starbase and finishing up T2 on the Embassy. While I agree the resource dumps are a bit much (Ironically used to be worse than it is now), it just depends on how bad you want the reward of doing it. A lot of our guys contribute because they really want what it has to offer, we also recruit people openly and have a probie period of a month with a contribution requirement to request stuff from our stores as a member (Kind of a quality control period).

Fact is, even as a small fleet you have to run it as if you're a larger fleet to attract more quality recruits. Presenting yourself as a quality fleet beyond just being chill to hang out with. Just comes down to appealing to people beyond just being a laidback fleet, since most of the fleets in STO claim they are laidback. That way you can still pull in people to help get your fleet rolling on a more progressive basis while at the same time giving them a reason to love being apart of your fleet.

dracounguis 05-13-2013 09:35 PM

Cryptic made the fleet project system to kill off small and 1-man fleets, so what is your concern? Just earn yourself a huge pile of fleet credits in the small fleet since there's no competition in filling queues, then bail and join a big fleet where you can buy your tier 5 ship and Elite weapons and etc. Sounds like the best of both worlds to me! ;)

Our queues fill up so fast there are sometimes many days between when I have a chance to contribute some marks, doffs or etc.

tilarta 05-13-2013 10:56 PM

Because you missed the point I made
 
Since you somehow managed to miss it, I'll type it again:

Quote:

Now, to be clear, I like my fleet, because it feels more personal that I know everyone who is in it, instead of having a large number of people who are just names on a list.

Also, for better or worse, I commit to a Fleet, out of loyalty and responsibility to the members.

So, I'm not going to abandon it no matter what.
And really, I feel it would be inappropriate to leave just because things are getting tough.
What kind of message does it send when the Fleet Founder bails on his own fleet?

Not to mention the fact that it would alienate my current Fleetmates, who are sticking with the Fleet in this difficult time.

That's a high price to pay, too high in my opinion.

joshmaul 05-13-2013 11:28 PM

Well, to be blunt, if you recruited a bunch of numbskulls who have contributed little to nothing to the fleet projects, that's more a problem with people being selfish jerks as opposed to any flaw in the system. The system, for better or for worse, "works". Better for some than for others, of course, but the fact remains.

The best thing you can do is, if you have fleetless friends, to recruit them; or if you have friends in other fleets, ask them to make alts for yours. Beyond that, all I can say is KBO.

sneyeper 05-13-2013 11:40 PM

You can have your cake and eat it too.

My fleet, which is one of the top 10 fleets in the game, has on rare occassion invited players to bring alts to the fleet to donate to our base. These players do not necessarily want to leave their small fleets for reasons similar to yours but would like access to end base gear and sometimes like company while working on resources for their/our bases. So they do some donating to our base to help us out, and they get access to fleet gear and make new friends without needing to leave their preferred fleet. Of the top 10 fed/kdf fleets we possibly have the smallest roster, so we can accommodate such scenarios with far less trouble than fleets with larger/full rosters.

Moreover, you might find you are the last player in your fleet who actually plays. At that point, loyalty is a mute issue as there is no one left to remain loyal too. Having another set of friends might be to your advantage.

As to being selfish, that is certainly not true of all fleets. I am always on the lookout for ways to help small fleets, but in most cases members of small fleets like yourself are so loyal to their fleet that any sort of alliance or partnership with another fleet feels like a betrayal to their own and dismiss any opportunity. As evidenced in the first post, instead of attempting to reach out to other fleets for possible solutions, a finger was pointed at other fleets and how they are somehow holding back your own fleet.

angrytarg 05-14-2013 12:29 AM

That's the problem with MMO - you need massive groups of players to achieve something. The fleet system itself is designed to eliminate "small fleets" in favour of large ones so that more people are contributing and - in the end - pay for the elite gear.

I could complain as well, as a fleetless player I will never be compitition for fleet players since I will never get the top gear in the game which basic primitive design would require me to own in order to be "good". But no one would even think of supporting independent players because it is my own "fault". And so is your fleet your "problem". Either deal with it or join a large corp erm... I mean fleet ;)

Or just don't care :D

zeuxidemus001 05-14-2013 02:02 AM

Life is too short to be dealing with these large fleets... stay small and proud!

hasukurobi 05-14-2013 03:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by angrytarg (Post 9918091)
That's the problem with MMO - you need massive groups of players to achieve something. The fleet system itself is designed to eliminate "small fleets" in favour of large ones so that more people are contributing and - in the end - pay for the elite gear.

I could complain as well, as a fleetless player I will never be compitition for fleet players since I will never get the top gear in the game which basic primitive design would require me to own in order to be "good". But no one would even think of supporting independent players because it is my own "fault". And so is your fleet your "problem". Either deal with it or join a large corp erm... I mean fleet ;)

Or just don't care :D

Just so long as you do not require Antiprotons for your ship you should be fine with Reputation gear or various lockbox MK XII weapons actually. Oh... And so long as you do not have a problem with only running Elite Scorpions for your Fed Carriers.


I also find trying to climb the ladder in my fleet to be tricky. We have about 4 core members and another who is having trouble being active at the moment but who will get back. Fleet marks are a bother but not a big deal. The really annoying part is the 1 Million EC it takes to pop a number of normal missions, how slow the progress towards any goal can be, and the absolutely insane amount of Dilithium required... With a refine cap of 8K and it being a LOT of work to generate Dilithium in the 100's of thousands combined with the fact that every player also needs Dilithium for EVERYTHING else in the entire game... It can be hard to convince even MYSELF to part with it... And I am the danged leader of the fleet.


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