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-   -   Is there any real purpose to Cruisers anymore (http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=735141)

sterlingwarbird 06-04-2013 05:23 PM

Is there any real purpose to Cruisers anymore
 
I am a Cruiser captain and I love those ships. They are far more graceful and beautiful then any BoP or psudo-escort (I call them "psudo" because not counting the Defiant, there are no other Federation escorts) could hope to be.

The problem is, in PvP, Cruisers have no real purpose except to fill up space on the team. Cruisers do not have the hull or shield strength to withstand a massive alpha strike from an opposing team which happens more often then not and sub-nuc completely gimps them.

However because Escort damage is through the roof, there needs to be a few balance changes. I would suggest doubling all cruiser hull and shield strength base stats and then effectively keeping their damage the same. This means they would not be overpowered and they could still be killed by Escorts but would provide them with a far more effective role in PvP.

This would give them the ability to support other ships without having to worry too much about constantly buffing themselves and self-healing. This would allow cruisers to fulfill their intended protector role a lot more easier and make cruisers like the Galaxy Class more viable again WITHOUT changing its damage.

If these are supposed to be large, bulky, powerful support ships then can we please make them large and powerful, not allowing them to die in one pass with an alpha strike.

rylanadionysis 06-04-2013 05:27 PM

Try taking an escort into five bunched up well specced tac cruisers with fire at will and BO going and tell me how you do >_>

Burning ring of fire. Sure you might get one, but the AOE damage from the other four is going to tear you to shreds. Some of those cruisers do some pretty nasty dps.

That or they live long enough to tractor spam you into oblivion once APO is on cd.

sterlingwarbird 06-04-2013 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rylanadionysis (Post 10616951)
Try taking an escort into five bunched up well specced tac cruisers with fire at will and BO going and tell me how you do >_>

Burning ring of fire. Sure you might get one, but the AOE damage from the other four is going to tear you to shreds. Some of those cruisers do some pretty nasty dps.

Of course, I'm not disputing that which is why I do not want to change their damage, I recognize that Cruiser damage is optimal but larger cruisers with less tactical capability should have much more hull to make up for their lower tactical output. The Excelsior does not need these changes but the Galaxy desperately does.

The Fleet Galaxy should have 88,000 hull and 2.1 shield modifier to make up for its tactical shortfalls. Cryptic needs to look at ships individually and not as part of the "trinity".

rylanadionysis 06-04-2013 05:33 PM

Its the same thing with the Negh Var KDF side. Amazing engineering slots... one lt tactical slot, 3 tac consoles. I might tickle a Miranda starter ship >_>

Yeah ill never PvP on Dannika, whats the point, there is no place for a tank/healer in PvP. Just debuffer/healers which of course is the domain of Sci.

sterlingwarbird 06-04-2013 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rylanadionysis (Post 10617041)
Its the same thing with the Negh Var KDF side. Amazing engineering slots... one lt tactical slot.

Yeah ill never PvP on Dannika, whats the point, there is no place for a tank/healer in PvP. Just debuffer/healers which of course is the domain of Sci.

Exactly, Klingon cruisers need the same treatment. Cryptic needs to go back, look at ALL the ships and cater to their individual need to make them all viable. For example, the Fleet Nebula could have an additional "Torpedo Pod" reduced cooldown torpedo rate to make it have something unique over the Vesta and make it a viable Torpedo boat.

Its great that somebody agrees with my idea of looking at ships from an individual standpoint.

rylanadionysis 06-04-2013 05:40 PM

Thats the fundamental flaw of the game in its entirety. Everything is about DPS DPS DPS. There is no use for a healer/crowd controller outside of pvp, and the pvp version is really best suited to one of the three captain archetypes.

Honestly I think the engineer archetype as a whole is worthless in space. Might as well roll a tac cappy and throw them in a cruiser. At least then they get some damage specials with survivability. I might experiment with my KDF engineer in an escort but that just seems so dumb to me.

Tac Escort works, Sci Science works, Engineer Cruiser = lol

sterlingwarbird 06-04-2013 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rylanadionysis (Post 10617221)
Thats the fundamental flaw of the game in its entirety. Everything is about DPS DPS DPS. There is no use for a healer/crowd controller outside of pvp, and the pvp version is really best suited to one of the three captain archetypes.

Honestly I think the engineer archetype as a whole is worthless in space. Might as well roll a tac cappy and throw them in a cruiser. At least then they get some damage specials with survivability. I might experiment with my KDF engineer in an escort but that just seems so dumb to me.

Tac Escort works, Sci Science works, Engineer Cruiser = lol

What about an engineering ability that's like one I saw in ToR, its an AoE taunt that gimps damage by 95% if they attempt to attack anything but you when its in effect. It also buffs your damage resistance by 50%, surely something like that would be useful for an engineer in a tank role in PvP? A taunt that works in PvP in some way..

majortiraomega 06-04-2013 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sterlingwarbird (Post 10616921)
However because Escort damage is through the roof, there needs to be a few balance changes. I would suggest doubling all cruiser hull and shield strength base stats and then effectively keeping their damage the same.

You want double shields and hull for cruisers because coordination from a science and a tactical officer can kill them? Have you ever tried to kill a fleet star cruiser build for just tanking? That ship can take fire from 2 tactical officer escorts without any problem. You need a science officer to make them crack. With double shields and hull most cruisers would have 136,000 hull and 25,000 shields/facing, they would never die. Somehow I have a feeling that is what you want to happen. With the Legacy of Romulus update, it isn't too hard to make a single cannon cruiser work very well while still having a very capable tank.

sterlingwarbird 06-04-2013 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by majortiraomega (Post 10617271)
You want double shields and hull for cruisers because coordination from a science and a tactical officer can kill them? Have you ever tried to kill a fleet star cruiser build for just tanking? That ship can take fire from 2 tactical officer escorts without any problem. You need a science officer to make them crack. With double shields and hull most cruisers would have 136,000 hull and 25,000 shields/facing, they would never die. Somehow I have a feeling that is what you want to happen. With the Legacy of Romulus update, it isn't too hard to make a single cannon cruiser work very well while still having a very capable tank.

Yes, I want cruisers to be VERY hard to kill because that is what they SHOULD be doing. Cruisers should be for people who want to play at a slowly and ironically more TACTICAL pace. Smaller cruisers like the Excelsior would trade this in for additional damage, as well as the Sovereign. Tactical is not really about tactics, its about creating as big and loud a noise as you can while trying not to get hit in your speed tanking escort.

If escorts can avoid 95% of their damage, why can't cruisers have an awesome presence on the battlefield... not like we'd be hitting you much in your JHAS gimped to hell.

majortiraomega 06-04-2013 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sterlingwarbird (Post 10617311)
Yes, I want cruisers to be VERY hard to kill because that is what they SHOULD be doing. Cruisers should be for people who want to play at a slowly and ironically more TACTICAL pace. Smaller cruisers like the Excelsior would trade this in for additional damage, as well as the Sovereign. Tactical is not really about tactics, its about creating as big and loud a noise as you can while trying not to get hit in your speed tanking escort.

If escorts can avoid 95% of their damage, why can't cruisers have an awesome presence on the battlefield... not like we'd be hitting you much in your JHAS gimped to hell.

First off, I mainly PvP with a Fleet Science Vessel Retrofit in PvP, I don't fly a JHAS. I agree that something needs to be done to escorts to make them less tanky. The first step has already been taken with Legacy of Romulus, Escorts are fortunately back to their low innate hull regeneration. Now if only Cryptic can do something about the Emergency Power to Engines/RCS accelerator problem introduced with Legacy of Romulus.

Buffing cruisers to immortal levels won't solve anything at all. In fact, it will make PvP worse, not better. Cryptic has given cruisers the tools to make a tanky cruiser while also dealing decent damage, it's just a matter of using them. A few weeks ago I ran into a cruiser that put out 1.3 million damage and 450k healing using an aux2bat build with single cannons from an engineer character. If that's possible, you can't tell me cruisers aren't viable. That cruiser did die three times though. Imagine how deadly he would be with double hull and shields.


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