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-   -   Tipping point: Cheese vs OP vs Both (http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=853741)

mimey2 09-14-2013 12:52 AM

Tipping point: Cheese vs OP vs Both
 
I enjoyed the discussion in the previous thread about damage-dealing powers. I'm also adding these 'Tipping Point' threads to my signature as well (including a couple ideas I've thought up for future ones, and as always, feel free to suggest more).

So, now, for the sake of keeping this thread at least on the generally same page so there's no confusion, here's my definitions at least of 'cheese' and 'OP':

Cheese: Something is cheese when an item or something grants a large advantage to your team with little to no skill involved with using it while having a proportionally large disadvantage to the other team, making it difficult to play against due to it also having few to no counters, especially if such counters are very limited in how often they can be used in comparison to the 'cheese' in question. Examples: GPG, TIF, SNB DOFFs (original form), SIC console, etc.

Bonus points if the thing in question is one or more of the following:

An AoE
A force multiplier
Can be used on a lot of ships
Is obviously broken/exploited/bug
Little-to-no opportunity cost for using it


Overpowered: Something is OP when it provides such a significant advantage that not using it is an absolute foolish move to make because you are gimping yourself and your team (possibly) without it. Examples: Tier 4 placate, Romulan BOFFs with double-space traits, Elite Fleet Shields, etc.



Now, something CAN be overpowered and not cheese, while something can be cheese and not overpowered, or it can be both, or even neither.

Remember though, this is NOT about what anyone thinks is 'cheese' or 'OP' or even both of those things. Or in other words...

Tipping Point: At what point is something considered 'cheese', 'OP', or both? And pretty much just as important as that, WHY is that thing considered 'cheese', 'OP', or both? What factors are applying to make people feel that way?

An example to get the ball rolling:

Graviton Pulse. Entirely unspecced, you can argue it is still cheese due to it's AoE effect, force multiplication, etc. But it isn't that long of an effect, so it really isn't truly overpowered.

However, add in even a decent amount of spec into it with Graviton Generators, and that few moments can effortlessly jump to 20 or more seconds from a single console, 50 seconds if you REALLY spec it. At that point, especially if chained, it is significantly more powerful.

dontdrunkimshoot 09-14-2013 03:15 AM

more then 2 hangers present in a match just creates to much garbage on the screen for fun to be had, pets are truly the cancer of pvp. my fun tips into the red at times like that, and my frame rate goes into the single digits.

twam 09-14-2013 03:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot (Post 12402011)
more then 2 hangers present in a match just creates to much garbage on the screen for fun to be had, pets are truly the cancer of pvp. my fun tips into the red at times like that, and my frame rate goes into the single digits.

This.

Was in a match the other day with 3 Scimitars with various pets, 2 or 3 sci's with photonic fleet, numerous nimbus spawns, all on top of regular distructables like torps and mines.

That was the first and only match I played that day. Very little fun was had.

des101 09-14-2013 04:05 AM

I agree with the npc issue in PvP. Was in a match earlier (only 3 v 3 ) yet at one point there were more npc's on the field than players!
It's supposed to be PvP not PvE.

Another gripe:

Ability to swap out mods during the map - Soz, but once the map has loaded you should have a 60sec window at the start to fit or swap anything and then they're locked in for the duration of play.


Yep, I got out of bed the wrong side this morning! lol

g0h4n4 09-14-2013 04:30 AM

Pets online

virusdancer 09-14-2013 05:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by g0h4n4 (Post 12402441)
Pets online

Later this month...Voth Carrier - stated a real carrier, thus 2 Hangars. Wheeee!

bpharma 09-14-2013 06:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mimey2 (Post 12401341)
Remember though, this is NOT about what anyone thinks is 'cheese' or 'OP' or even both of those things. Or in other words...

Tipping Point: At what point is something considered 'cheese', 'OP', or both? And pretty much just as important as that, WHY is that thing considered 'cheese', 'OP', or both? What factors are applying to make people feel that way?

An example to get the ball rolling:

Graviton Pulse. Entirely unspecced, you can argue it is still cheese due to it's AoE effect, force multiplication, etc. But it isn't that long of an effect, so it really isn't truly overpowered.

However, add in even a decent amount of spec into it with Graviton Generators, and that few moments can effortlessly jump to 20 or more seconds from a single console, 50 seconds if you REALLY spec it. At that point, especially if chained, it is significantly more powerful.

I take it some of the posters above have difficulty maintaining attention, reading or don't care, so I have quoted a very integral part for some of you =)

For me the difference between cheese and OP is that something that is cheese has no/little cost to it. It is all benefit and a very significant advantage. While OP for me is when something gives you such a significant advantage that the disadvantage is not exploitable enough to counter.

For example the recent BO fiasco. With the right set up you could fire 3 beam overload 3's off within 2s which would destroy most PvPers and probably most PvE enemies. It had it's downsides so it wasn't OP/cheese but a lot of it was negated by DEM doff and a few other things. The ability to negate the drawbacks made it either cheese or OP, probably both especially as some factions could cloak and run negating more of the downsides. I'm leading more to OP though as you do suffer in sustained DPS a bit for that awesome power, just not enough for it to lead to a significant advantage to the opposing team.

This is not an argument about the cause of the BO nerf, if it's a nerf or contributing factors blah blah blah. I am using it as an example of why it was considered OP/cheese.

Cheese for me you've already discussed with the ferpect example of rom boffs with double space traits. No disadvantage to using them, all benefit and you'd be silly not to get 5+. Another example could be pointed at human boffs before LoR too.

Really it all comes down to what the counter is and what the disadvantages are to using said ability/console vs the benefit.

virusdancer 09-14-2013 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bpharma (Post 12403061)
I take it some of the posters above have difficulty maintaining attention, reading or don't care, so I have quoted a very integral part for some of you =)

Or the five people that responded before you feel that petspam fits...

...just saying. ;)

macronius 09-14-2013 06:39 AM

Elachi conole,
Elachi crescent disruptor with 100% penetration proc
Subspace jump
BO plus doff
Pet spam and tractor spam
Rom boffs with double traits ... Clearly OP with no downside
Aceton assimilators

ursusmorologus 09-14-2013 06:48 AM

OP is where the counter is weak against it

Cheese is where there is no practical counter against it


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