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Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,817
# 472
03-07-2014, 08:56 AM
Originally Posted by abystander0 View Post
That's fine. I am ok with people not agreeing with me.
That's the point of debate and discussion. I feel that everyone agrees with you all the time either you're stating something obvious (the sky on a clear day on Earth is blue) or completely meaningless.


It could work a couple of ways. Each shot would discharge a fifth(assuming five shots in a cycle) of your weapon power until it's depeleted. The power of each shot is determined by how much available weapon power you had at the top of the firing cycle. Firing the spinal phaser would disable other weapons to make all that power available for use by the spinal phaser. Another way is to keep the high power drain, but use eps consoles, and other power management tricks to mitigate the drain, (engineers would see the highest benefit here). Here again, you could get 5 shots per firing cycle, or the cycle ends prematurely when you run out of weapon power. The first method would make all the shots in the cycle the same, but the over all damage output would be variable depending on what the weapon power was at the start of the firing sequence, the second method would give all shots the same base damage, but you might face having fewer shots due to not having enough power.
Even with EPS consoles recovering the drain between shots isn't gonna help much since power from beams doesn't really replenish until the weapon stops firing. If you fire the lance at 125 in that model it would be 125, 115, 105, 95, 85. I suppose that's workable especially if the first shot crushes the shields.

Creating prototypes and testbeds, is not the same as full scale production. The defiant is the exception here since there was no way for Star Fleet to dodge the bullet with it. It was a warship pure and simple, calling it an escort was semantics. The bulk of Starfleet ships are exploration vessels that have enough armament to be useful in a combat role.
But the Prometheus is in full production now. And according to the ENT episode Azati Prime it was still operational in the 25th century.

The Defiant was not a deep space exploration vessel. Sure you could do survey work within range of a base, but outside of that, it did not have the supply capacity for that.
My point wasn't that it was optimal, but that all Starfleet vessels can serve as science vessels as that's what it means to be a Starfleet vessel.

That would be a waste of resources, when you could simply tear down the ship for raw materials, and build a new ship, since now that you have peace, you don't need as many hulls.
I disagree, sure you can build four five small fast ships like the Defiant with the resources that it takes to build a single Galaxy class, but I don't think that it is more resource, energy, or time efficient to dismantle a Galaxy class and repurpose the materials into a new ship versus modding a Galaxy with a third nacelle and a large heavy weapon. And probably new shields (a 1.1 shield modifier that's it?).

A dreadnaught is a mailed fist. It has one purpose, and that is to deliver that huge weapon to a flashpoint undetected. It makes for an ideal terror weapon. That is antithetical to Starfleet's purpose. I doubt that Federation politicians would be happy with that kind of power.
I consulted the wik on this one, for a historic perspective.

The dreadnought was the predominant type of battleship in the early 20th century. The first of the kind, the Royal Navy's Dreadnought, made such a strong impression on people's minds when it was launched in 1906 that similar battleships built subsequently were referred to generically as "dreadnoughts", and earlier battleships became known as pre-dreadnoughts. The Dreadnought's design had two revolutionary features: an "all-big-gun" armament scheme, with an unprecedented number of heavy-calibre guns, and steam turbine propulsion.[a] As dreadnoughts became a crucial symbol of national power, the arrival of these new warships renewed the naval arms race between the United Kingdom and Germany. Dreadnought races sprang up around the world, including in South America, lasting up to the beginning of World War I.

Now while the Federation isn't the type of power to start an arms race with her competitors the Federation is also not the type of power that's going to simply sit back and be outgunned. We don't send Starfleet officers to die after all. Starfleet's purpose is exploration, but due to the fact that they are the ones out there on the frontier at the borders, coming into contact with hostiles first, their other primary purpose is to defend the Federation. I'm like Teddy, "Speak softly and carry a big stick."

You see it automatically as a terror weapon. I see it as a stand off weapon. Strategic deterrence. We are the Federation and we're not gonna launch biogenic weapons (barring Sisko but he was trying to prove a damn point), we don't touch thalaron weaponry at all, nor will we use trilithium torpedoes on your sun, or isolytic subspace weaponry. But don't get us wrong, we can build big ships, with big guns, that you will lose to.

I'm not sure where I stand on a Dreadnaught with a cloak though. That said for canon's sake the cloak should be integrated. Just saying. I'm for damn sure not a Pressman Starfleet officer though.

It's a couple separate discussions there.

The first is the assertion that it's a tactical ship and should have an Lt commander tactical slot. (canonicity)

The second is the assertion that it belongs in this universe and fits in the timeline.

I guess it might be confusing if you look at it in a narrow context, and not the multiple discussions happening concurrently.
That's fair enough, it's not clear cut enough that intelligent people can't come down on different sides of it. That's why I hate temporal mechanics.

Agreed, calling it a dreadnaught was .....uninspired maybe? (I prefer dumb though)

I don't recall having any issue with the assault cruiser...maybe others did. It's still a cruiser, just with more tactical flexibility.
Well seeing as how it has the largest gun in Federation history I can see why they'd come to that conclusion.

It was some of the same issues. Normal Rear Admiral Assault Cruisers have the same LT-Ens Tac setup, but the ship is restricted to beams and you can't use the strongest beam skills with that set up. And it had reached a point where the ship that was supposed to be the tank couldn't draw enough aggro to actually tank. The argument for the refit was that it should be more tactically capable. Which ultimately mercifully happened and I love it.

I don't think that Starfleet has that many ships. According to the fluff in the path to 2409 Starfleet had problems with not having enough starships to deal with the Romulan/Klingon Border issue, dealing with Nausciaan raiders on the Klingon/Gorn borders, and having enough shps to conduct exploration/survey. I think that the number is actually around a thousand or so ships. Also, remember in DS9: Sacrifice of Angels, that they had to stop the Dominion from breaking through the wormhole with that huge fleet of over two thousand ships. As I recall the Federation fleet was outnumbered something like two to one against the defending Cardassian/Dominion fleet. I would assume that Starfleet planners are smart enough to throw as many starships as practical at a desperate fight like that, and not go in undergunned.

I don't have any hard numbers though, just extrapolating rough numbers from what was shown. Is there a table of organization that shows numbers for Starfleet? It might be useful in later discussions.
8000 light years in diameter and only the Okudas and God knows how much volume. It isn't logical for the Federation to have left all their other borders unguarded to fight the Dominion. Even at Warp 9.99 it takes a year to cross the Federation. At the Enterprise-D's top speed Warp 9.6 that's something like 5 years.

The 2800 Dominion ships would've been enough to finish the war against the allies. I think that wasn't because Starfleet only has 5000 ships or so, but because they only had 2000 that they could get to the front. The Dominion War had a pretty healthy build up. Starfleet had a few years to recall ships from the frontier and reorganize their fleet deployment to get people to the areas around the Cardassian border. That was accelerated with the war with the Klingons. But that doesn't mean they redeployed the entire fleet. The Dominion was going to win with those ships because of concentration of force.

Starfleet and the Klingons had also ground their edges against each other as well, so they went into the Dominion War with less ships then they had to begin with.

There was a short thread on this subject elsewhere.

I will say that in The Motion Picture, the 1701 was the only ship that could intercept V'ger, but that was on short notice for something coming straight at Earth at high speed. The idea seems to be that in peacetime most Starfleet vessels are out exploring the unknown and patrolling the borders and that only in times of war do they come together. On the same note the NCC-2000 was still 15 years away, so I think Starfleet back then was much smaller as was the Federation. And the 1701 was 25 years old as it was. Starfleet shipbuilding was either far less capable (easy as replicators hadn't been invented yet) and/or they focused on fewer high quality ships. Something that ramped up in the next century.

Star Trek is based on the Horatio Hornblower age of discovery ideal that one ship will be out at the edge of the unknown and be the sole representative of their nation there. But for a war that depiction must shift so you get to see how big this thing really is. Patrolling Federation space must be a truly titanic task.

If we're gonna look at one thing we should look at this, I think this is the greatest indicator.

The Excelsior class is still in service. The Excelsior is NCC-2000. Assuming that most ships in that era have relatively long service lives, if you want to say that most starships after her stayed in service to the Dominion war era, then we have the Prometheus whose plaque and MSD says NX-74913. That's what? 72913 Starfleet vessels built in a century.

This is also from show runner Ronald B. Moore in 1997.
Size Edit

Regarding the quantity of starships Starfleet had in use in the late 2370s, Moore commented, "I wouldn't be surprised if Starfleet had 30,000 ships or so." (AOL chat, 1997) This was based on reasoning that the USS Hood has a registry of NCC-42296 while the USS Voyager is NCC-74656.

During Operation Return, Starfleet attempted to prevent the Dominion from bringing down the minefield, which would have allowed 2800 ships to come through the wormhole, which would allow for a Dominion total victory. Meaning that since, at that time of the war, the forces of both sides were about equal, the true size of the Dominion forces was much larger than Starfleet.

Doctor Zimmerman claimed that there were 675 EMH Mark I instances active in Starfleet before they were taken off duty during the Dominion War. (VOY: "Life Line")

Here's the link to Mem-Alpha's archive.

I don't hate the dreadnaught at all. I think its a cool ship. My issues with it is it can't do what it did in the show, and people are trying to make it something that it isn't. That goes for Cryptic too
I suppose I understand that. I'm certainly not one of the people doing the tier 5 Connie thing (seems weird to me).

But you have to admit, as it is now, it can't even do what it did in the show.

I know. Shooty stuff is easier to sell to [spacebar] heroes though.

I agree with your idea here. The reputation, and the commendation ranks should count for something useful.
Man that would be such a dream. Especially to fly into a battle against a bunch of Orion ships, they see the registry and turn around and haul tail. No shots fired.
Originally Posted by reynoldsxd View Post

On a side note:

No, the antennas on the Galaxy saucer are not cannons. No sane engineer would place weapons at that location, where the own ship bars half a hemisphere of field of view...
I have no desire to argue against that, but they did do the same thing with the Phaser Lance y'know. Which could be why they would be there, to cover the arc.

But at the edge of the saucer would still be better. That said they're cannons, they only point in one direction anyway the way Star Trek starships use them.
Originally Posted by cowcookies1 View Post
I know nobody really reads, these comments, but i wanted to say that i think it would be cool if the player could choose to fly the saucer section or the stardrive section when they engage saucer or chevron separation, similar to the multi-vector assault mode options.
I said that a while ago and I agree completely, nice to see someone else thinking along the same lines. We can do it with the Prometheus. Honestly I'd like to equip the two sections too. The galaxy Saucer has an aft Photon torpedo launcher(page 128 and 130 in TNG Tech manual) , I'd like to slap a Romulan Hyper Plasma in there instead.
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Last edited by captaind3; 03-07-2014 at 09:05 AM.