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Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 480
# 487
03-07-2014, 10:23 PM
Originally Posted by captaind3 View Post
That's the point of debate and discussion. I feel that everyone agrees with you all the time either you're stating something obvious (the sky on a clear day on Earth is blue) or completely meaningless.

Even with EPS consoles recovering the drain between shots isn't gonna help much since power from beams doesn't really replenish until the weapon stops firing. If you fire the lance at 125 in that model it would be 125, 115, 105, 95, 85. I suppose that's workable especially if the first shot crushes the shields.
That was just an example of mitigation (and not a great one, I admit). To completely overcome the heavy power drain, you would need something like the plasmotic leach, emergency power to weapons, Aux2batt, or the Marion duty officer that mitigates weapon drain on directed energy modulation.

With the first model, if power starts at 125, then each shot would drain 25 power (being one fifth of 125), thus putting you at zero at the end of the cycle. Each shot fired in the cycle, would be independent of the other as far as hit, damage, crit, and crit damage calculation is concerned. Power management would be essential to keep the weapon's damage from dropping off too steeply. That includes not firing other energy weapons. Damage for each shot is based off what your power was at the start of the cycle (here that is 125).

The second model would work similar, but because your damage and energy drain are static (keep the drain at 50 for example), you would need to keep your weapon power from hitting zero to maintain fire (5 shots max). Here also, hit, damage, crit, crit damage is calculated separately for each shot.

The first model is more flexible, but would have lower damage per shot than the second model, which has higher damage but the potential to not be able to continue fire due to lack of weapon power. Both could lock you out of firing other weapons, or perhaps just energy weapons.
I am not certain what a fair cooldown (if one is needed) would be good, but I was thinking somewhere in the neighborhood of thirty to forty seconds.

In this respect, heavy engineering capability becomes an asset.

Also........warp 13 plz.

But the Prometheus is in full production now. And according to the ENT episode Azati Prime it was still operational in the 25th century.
Oh yes, I had forgotten about Prometheus. Good point. I loathed Voyager, and tend to forget things that happened in it.

My point wasn't that it was optimal, but that all Starfleet vessels can serve as science vessels as that's what it means to be a Starfleet vessel.

I disagree, sure you can build four five small fast ships like the Defiant with the resources that it takes to build a single Galaxy class, but I don't think that it is more resource, energy, or time efficient to dismantle a Galaxy class and repurpose the materials into a new ship versus modding a Galaxy with a third nacelle and a large heavy weapon. And probably new shields (a 1.1 shield modifier that's it?).
Having multiple ships for the same cost of having one big one is more efficient for Starfleet from the standpoint that it usually finds itself short of available starships in critical situation. Having a big expensive ship in the wrong place at the wrong time effectively renders that ship meaningless.

I consulted the wik on this one, for a historic perspective.

The dreadnought was the predominant type of battleship in the early 20th century. The first of the kind, the Royal Navy's Dreadnought, made such a strong impression on people's minds when it was launched in 1906 that similar battleships built subsequently were referred to generically as "dreadnoughts", and earlier battleships became known as pre-dreadnoughts. The Dreadnought's design had two revolutionary features: an "all-big-gun" armament scheme, with an unprecedented number of heavy-calibre guns, and steam turbine propulsion.[a] As dreadnoughts became a crucial symbol of national power, the arrival of these new warships renewed the naval arms race between the United Kingdom and Germany. Dreadnought races sprang up around the world, including in South America, lasting up to the beginning of World War I.

Now while the Federation isn't the type of power to start an arms race with her competitors the Federation is also not the type of power that's going to simply sit back and be outgunned. We don't send Starfleet officers to die after all. Starfleet's purpose is exploration, but due to the fact that they are the ones out there on the frontier at the borders, coming into contact with hostiles first, their other primary purpose is to defend the Federation. I'm like Teddy, "Speak softly and carry a big stick."
Yes, and the same problems with that would happen here too. Whether or not Starfleet would want to start an arms race wouldn't matter. One would happen anyway, as the Klingon Empire, the Dominion, Romulans (though as of now, they have the Scimitar), or anyone else with the ability to maintain a fleet would see that as a threat, and begin their own super heavy construction, just like in your example. Even though they are at war, the Klingon Empire is currently using pretty standard weapons and tactics. With an arms race, you would see more heavy batlecruisers, and new battleships. (Not this silly "the KDF makes us no money so they don't get anything" mentality Cryptic has, which is a separate discussion.)

Starfleet, and the Federation at large, wants to avoid the appearance of being an expansionist military power. It's part of why there was so much flak over calling the Defiant an escort. With something like a dreadnaught, the problem is exacerbated. The Federation doesn't need a symbol of pride or national power.

You see it automatically as a terror weapon. I see it as a stand off weapon. Strategic deterrence. We are the Federation and we're not gonna launch biogenic weapons (barring Sisko but he was trying to prove a damn point), we don't touch thalaron weaponry at all, nor will we use trilithium torpedoes on your sun, or isolytic subspace weaponry. But don't get us wrong, we can build big ships, with big guns, that you will lose to.

I'm not sure where I stand on a Dreadnaught with a cloak though. That said for canon's sake the cloak should be integrated. Just saying. I'm for damn sure not a Pressman Starfleet officer though.
The temptation to use such a weapon would be too great for some officers not to use it. "If you have a 'big stick' you should use it". Remember Benjamin Maxwell from TNG: The wounded? Imagine him with a Galaxy-X. People being what they are, he wouldn't be an isolated case of hate or anger taking the helm.

Also, for not being a battleship, the Pheonix certainly did number on the Cardassians.

You don't need super weapons for strategic deterence, they certainly help, but they are not necessary. What they do is make everyone very nervous, and become a trap, that snares powers in an arms race.

As for the cloak, I just give it a pass, since I consider the Galaxy-X to be a fish out of water.

That's fair enough, it's not clear cut enough that intelligent people can't come down on different sides of it. That's why I hate temporal mechanics.
Which is why I enjoy discussions. Seeing other points of view can allow you to see a bigger picture, or what you have overlooked (like me and the Prometheus).

Temporal mechanics give me a headache.

Well seeing as how it has the largest gun in Federation history I can see why they'd come to that conclusion.

It was some of the same issues. Normal Rear Admiral Assault Cruisers have the same LT-Ens Tac setup, but the ship is restricted to beams and you can't use the strongest beam skills with that set up. And it had reached a point where the ship that was supposed to be the tank couldn't draw enough aggro to actually tank. The argument for the refit was that it should be more tactically capable. Which ultimately mercifully happened and I love it.
It's more of a "one gun wonder" in my view, think of it as a really large gunboat with a really large gun. Siege ship, gun boat, or maybe even monitor might have been a better term. It's a 25th century artillery piece.

8000 light years in diameter and only the Okudas and God knows how much volume. It isn't logical for the Federation to have left all their other borders unguarded to fight the Dominion. Even at Warp 9.99 it takes a year to cross the Federation. At the Enterprise-D's top speed Warp 9.6 that's something like 5 years.

The 2800 Dominion ships would've been enough to finish the war against the allies. I think that wasn't because Starfleet only has 5000 ships or so, but because they only had 2000 that they could get to the front. The Dominion War had a pretty healthy build up. Starfleet had a few years to recall ships from the frontier and reorganize their fleet deployment to get people to the areas around the Cardassian border. That was accelerated with the war with the Klingons. But that doesn't mean they redeployed the entire fleet. The Dominion was going to win with those ships because of concentration of force.

Starfleet and the Klingons had also ground their edges against each other as well, so they went into the Dominion War with less ships then they had to begin with.

There was a short thread on this subject elsewhere.

I will say that in The Motion Picture, the 1701 was the only ship that could intercept V'ger, but that was on short notice for something coming straight at Earth at high speed. The idea seems to be that in peacetime most Starfleet vessels are out exploring the unknown and patrolling the borders and that only in times of war do they come together. On the same note the NCC-2000 was still 15 years away, so I think Starfleet back then was much smaller as was the Federation. And the 1701 was 25 years old as it was. Starfleet shipbuilding was either far less capable (easy as replicators hadn't been invented yet) and/or they focused on fewer high quality ships. Something that ramped up in the next century.

Star Trek is based on the Horatio Hornblower age of discovery ideal that one ship will be out at the edge of the unknown and be the sole representative of their nation there. But for a war that depiction must shift so you get to see how big this thing really is. Patrolling Federation space must be a truly titanic task.

If we're gonna look at one thing we should look at this, I think this is the greatest indicator.

The Excelsior class is still in service. The Excelsior is NCC-2000. Assuming that most ships in that era have relatively long service lives, if you want to say that most starships after her stayed in service to the Dominion war era, then we have the Prometheus whose plaque and MSD says NX-74913. That's what? 72913 Starfleet vessels built in a century.

This is also from show runner Ronald B. Moore in 1997.
Size Edit

Regarding the quantity of starships Starfleet had in use in the late 2370s, Moore commented, "I wouldn't be surprised if Starfleet had 30,000 ships or so." (AOL chat, 1997) This was based on reasoning that the USS Hood has a registry of NCC-42296 while the USS Voyager is NCC-74656.

During Operation Return, Starfleet attempted to prevent the Dominion from bringing down the minefield, which would have allowed 2800 ships to come through the wormhole, which would allow for a Dominion total victory. Meaning that since, at that time of the war, the forces of both sides were about equal, the true size of the Dominion forces was much larger than Starfleet.

Doctor Zimmerman claimed that there were 675 EMH Mark I instances active in Starfleet before they were taken off duty during the Dominion War. (VOY: "Life Line")

Here's the link to Mem-Alpha's archive.
That's quite a bit of really good information when you take a look at that archive. I had no idea that existed.

For the registry numbers issue, I think that there was no effort to catalog all the canon named ships, so there was no official guide for people to look at that had ship names and registry number. There were a couple of instances where you had ship names showing up in other episodes with different registry numbers, as I recall. The lack of a database for ship names and registry numbers made it hard to designate new ships in later stories. By inflating registry numbers you can dodge that point somewhat. So rather than Starfleet having that many hulls according to registry numbers, I would chalk that up to continuity problems. In universe it could easily be a matter of cancelling construction plans for ships already slated for construction, which would have a designation number. Any new constructions after that would have higher registry numbers. So in theory you could have any number of unrealized projects that eat up those registry numbers, but not actual starships.

But as stated in that information there was never a hard number given, so within reason, any number could be valid.

To me, if they had that many ships available, they would have been pulling everything they could and sending them at max speed to throw into battle. To have ships at your borders would be pointless if they lost the war.

I suppose I understand that. I'm certainly not one of the people doing the tier 5 Connie thing (seems weird to me).

But you have to admit, as it is now, it can't even do what it did in the show.
That's what annoys me the most. It can't do the one thing that made it awesome in the brief time we saw it.

Man that would be such a dream. Especially to fly into a battle against a bunch of Orion ships, they see the registry and turn around and haul tail. No shots fired.
No kidding, there is so much unrealized potential outside of shooting stuff. In your example after the enemy scatters and leaves, the mission could change to rescue, repair, or resupply or something.