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Republic Veteran
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 1,304
# 158
03-08-2014, 01:52 AM
Originally Posted by catoblepasbeta View Post
Pink pajamas is a reference to the TOS Romulan Uniforms, which incorporate pink pajama bottoms to my eyes. Rather silly looking IMO.

Book is "Kobayashi Maru", and according to it, the Tal Shair is quite old.

They use military ranks such as 'Major' they use the same ships as the normal military, almost identical uniforms (TNG) and later the same uniforms as the military (DS9). They had enough D'deridex classes to field entire fleets of Tal Shiar ships, They were effectively the second branch of the Romulan military. That counts as 'armed forces' in my book.

Hakeev existed prior to Legacy of Romulus. You encountered him in 'Mine Enemy' the arena episode, and 'Cutting the Cord' I'm not sure if he was even the leader of the Tal Shiar prior to LoR, but he certainly wasn't working with Sela. No he isn't mentioned at all in Path to 2409, in fact-if anything path to 2409 hints that Rehaek is the puppet master of the Tal Shiar, orchestrating Sela's exile when she started digging in places the Tal Shiar didn't want her to.

The Romulan republic wasn't mentioned before Legacy of Romulus at all. The references were added afterwards, along with more obvious changes-some with New Romulus, and some with Legacy of Romulus. Surely you noticed that New Romulus ships used to fly with the I.R.W. Prefix and their personnel used to have RSE uniforms? Some of the NPCs still do, like the lieutenant in the warehouse quest. Presumably Cryptic forgot to change her rank and uniform when LOR came about. It's rather interesting comparing D'Tan's faction pre-LOR to post-LOR. The Tal Shiar general's offer to make D'Tan the Leader of the Star Empire makes a lot less sense now that his forces were the ones that overthrew the RSE and Tal Shiar, but it made more sense when D'Tan was the leader of one of the factions to emerge in the in-fighting following Sela's departure.

Have I attacked the Republic for using Iconian tech in the past? Perhaps in the case of the gateway it may seem questionable, given they knew the Dewans wiped themselves out screwing around with that same gate. The Dyson sphere or the utilization of solanae technology though? handled much better.
They look like culottes/kulats to me, rather than pyjama pants:
and are arguably more red than pink (I believe the actual color would be called "Black Rose"); while the others shown in TOS are blue (not purple).

Ah, yes, that novel. It does seem to contradict more than The Art of the Impossible (and Vulcan's Heart, for that matter -- which I still haven't read, but I did find a copy on Thursday, so it's only a matter of time) concerning the matter of the founding of the Tal'Shiar; for example, and in particular, the relationship of the Haakona-Romulus conflicts to the Battle of Cheron. Memory Beta has an interesting policy in connection with the contradictory dates for the founding of the Tal'Shir, recommending that any civilian "Romulan Intelligence" agency prior to the time of Narviat be referred to, not as "Tal Shiar," but as "Romulan Intelligence." While Memory Beta of course does not have the same weight as canon, I like their policy, which seems to imply that they (probably unofficially) side with the later date and view the references to Romulan Intelligence as "Tal Shiar" in Kobayashi Maru to be anachronistic.

The police also have ranks like "Sergeant," "Lieutenant," "Captain," etc. That does not make the police a branch of the military. Some of them even have military weapons (S.W.A.T. teams, for example, although more and more regular police forces have been obtaining military equipment lately), but again, that does not make the police a military branch. Some police forces have fleets of helicopters (which are used by the military); some even have tanks and armored personnel carriers, but again, they are not a branch of the military. That the Tal'Shiar has its own fleet is well-known, but since multiple sources explicitly state that they are civilian and not military, I think that point doesn't need me to counter it.

I still don't recall having encountered Hakeev prior to LoR; I'll take your word for his having been around prior. Rehaek was explicitly named as "the leader of the Tal Shiar" in the Path to 2409 (under the year 2385), but he was apparently dead (again, according to the Path to 2409, under the year 2386) prior to Sela being arrested and sentenced to death by the Tal'Shiar, which sentence was commuted to exile at Donatra's intervention (her arrest and sentence were for the alleged murder of Rehaek). (Whether or not Rehaek was actually killed in the explosion at his home is never answered with certainty in the Path to 2409, but he did not figure into any subsequent events, and he is never mentioned again after the year 2386.)

I do not recall having seen any New Romulus personnel wearing RSE uniforms (I can check the warehouse mission for the one to whom you refer, but that would obviously not mean that the NPC in question is part of the RSE, nor would the wearing of identical uniforms by the New Romulus personnel prior to LoR). What New Romulus ships were ever seen prior to LoR? There never were any in orbit around New Romulus (indeed, calls for NPC New Romulus vessels to be added to the New Romulus system have been seen since LoR came out, because there are still no New Romulus ships in the system). And prior to LoR, there was still a Romulan Star Empire in existence which consisted of more than the Tal'Shiar, with its capitol on Rator-III, which, according to the Path to 2409, began to be called "Nova Roma" (in 2394), and later (2408) "Mol'Rihan."

For that matter, the Tal'Shiar was messing around with Iconian tech (including a gate) prior to the discovery of the gate on New Romulus, and agents of the Republic were on hand to see Taris make use of an Iconian gate, which occurred prior to the attempt by the Republic to use the gate found on New Romulus. Having seen Romulans using an Iconian gate without any trouble (remember, the facility was not destroyed by the gateway itself, but by a self-destruct sequence initiated by Taris prior to her escape through the gateway), agents of the Republic obviously would not have thought the Republic's attempt was crazy or even "questionable." If I recall correctly, the gate on New Romulus had been rigged to cause destruction prior to the Republic's first attempt to use it, so referring to this event in order to condemn D'Tan is more than a little disingenuous.

Fvillhu s'Tal'Diann (Phi'Tlaru Rihan) Praetor of the Tal'Diann/Tal-Diann
Tal'Diann = KDF-allied Romulan Republic Fleet / Tal-Diann = Fed-allied Romulan Republic Fleet