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Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,402
# 160
03-08-2014, 09:45 AM
Originally Posted by protogoth View Post
They look like culottes/kulats to me, rather than pyjama pants:
and are arguably more red than pink (I believe the actual color would be called "Black Rose"); while the others shown in TOS are blue (not purple).

Ah, yes, that novel. It does seem to contradict more than The Art of the Impossible (and Vulcan's Heart, for that matter -- which I still haven't read, but I did find a copy on Thursday, so it's only a matter of time) concerning the matter of the founding of the Tal'Shiar; for example, and in particular, the relationship of the Haakona-Romulus conflicts to the Battle of Cheron. Memory Beta has an interesting policy in connection with the contradictory dates for the founding of the Tal'Shir, recommending that any civilian "Romulan Intelligence" agency prior to the time of Narviat be referred to, not as "Tal Shiar," but as "Romulan Intelligence." While Memory Beta of course does not have the same weight as canon, I like their policy, which seems to imply that they (probably unofficially) side with the later date and view the references to Romulan Intelligence as "Tal Shiar" in Kobayashi Maru to be anachronistic.

The police also have ranks like "Sergeant," "Lieutenant," "Captain," etc. That does not make the police a branch of the military. Some of them even have military weapons (S.W.A.T. teams, for example, although more and more regular police forces have been obtaining military equipment lately), but again, that does not make the police a military branch. Some police forces have fleets of helicopters (which are used by the military); some even have tanks and armored personnel carriers, but again, they are not a branch of the military. That the Tal'Shiar has its own fleet is well-known, but since multiple sources explicitly state that they are civilian and not military, I think that point doesn't need me to counter it.

I still don't recall having encountered Hakeev prior to LoR; I'll take your word for his having been around prior. Rehaek was explicitly named as "the leader of the Tal Shiar" in the Path to 2409 (under the year 2385), but he was apparently dead (again, according to the Path to 2409, under the year 2386) prior to Sela being arrested and sentenced to death by the Tal'Shiar, which sentence was commuted to exile at Donatra's intervention (her arrest and sentence were for the alleged murder of Rehaek). (Whether or not Rehaek was actually killed in the explosion at his home is never answered with certainty in the Path to 2409, but he did not figure into any subsequent events, and he is never mentioned again after the year 2386.)

I do not recall having seen any New Romulus personnel wearing RSE uniforms (I can check the warehouse mission for the one to whom you refer, but that would obviously not mean that the NPC in question is part of the RSE, nor would the wearing of identical uniforms by the New Romulus personnel prior to LoR). What New Romulus ships were ever seen prior to LoR? There never were any in orbit around New Romulus (indeed, calls for NPC New Romulus vessels to be added to the New Romulus system have been seen since LoR came out, because there are still no New Romulus ships in the system). And prior to LoR, there was still a Romulan Star Empire in existence which consisted of more than the Tal'Shiar, with its capitol on Rator-III, which, according to the Path to 2409, began to be called "Nova Roma" (in 2394), and later (2408) "Mol'Rihan."

For that matter, the Tal'Shiar was messing around with Iconian tech (including a gate) prior to the discovery of the gate on New Romulus, and agents of the Republic were on hand to see Taris make use of an Iconian gate, which occurred prior to the attempt by the Republic to use the gate found on New Romulus. Having seen Romulans using an Iconian gate without any trouble (remember, the facility was not destroyed by the gateway itself, but by a self-destruct sequence initiated by Taris prior to her escape through the gateway), agents of the Republic obviously would not have thought the Republic's attempt was crazy or even "questionable." If I recall correctly, the gate on New Romulus had been rigged to cause destruction prior to the Republic's first attempt to use it, so referring to this event in order to condemn D'Tan is more than a little disingenuous.
To each their own. I can't stand the TOS uniforms, but like the TNG and DS9 uniforms for the Romulans.

Yes, it does certainly seem to be anachronistic and a retcon, which is why I prefer to base my views on the Romulans first and foremost on their showings in the movies and TV series.

I think it's just a matter of semantics. The only thing 'civilian' about the Tal Shiar is their leadership, which is composed of appointed government officials. They would correctly be classified as 'paramilitary', but the distinction remains nominal in the case of the Tal Shiar IMO.

Yes, the sidelining of non-Tal Shiar elements of the RSE by LoR is one of the things I dislike about LoR, because its one of those things that IMO contributed to the RSE becoming a walking caricature, a strawman. Heck, even with New Romulus they didn't take it that far-their actions against New Romulus seem to consist mostly of ground-based sabotage operations, and only after D'Tan rebukes the Tal Shiar offer. A far cry from the psychotic genocidal campaigns of LOR.

Aside from the warehouse lady, the pve mission where you rescue Romulan ships from Tholians-the ship that gives you your instructions for the mission used to have a IRW prefix and the captain used to have a RSE uniform. They also removed the RSE uniforms on refugees in the 'Mine enemy' mission. There might have been other npcs on New Romulus with RSE uniforms, but the specifics escape me. All of this made a bit more sense IMO when one considers that When New Romulus came out, prior to LoR, D'Tan's faction was more of an opportunistic secession brought on by the civil war following Sela's disappearance rather than an underground rebellion.

Eh, I give Hakeev and Taris a pass when it comes to using the gate technology, considering they got the technology from the Iconians themselves, so it wouldn't be too unreasonable to presume the Iconians taught them how to operate/build the gates properly. I think their stupidity stems from working with the Iconians in the first place, IMO. The symptoms of the gate problems the Romulans encountered seem pretty close to what the Dewans describe, so I have considered them to be of similar cause. Not the dumbest thing we have seen the KDF/Fed/RR do, but certainly up there. I wouldn't be opposed to Cryptic going in there and changing some dialogue or something to make the Romulans look a bit less silly.