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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 80
12-19-2010, 01:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leviathan99
Take a game like WoW. Heroic Dungeons were inherently better for bringing players into endgame than guilds are.
This is false. You have to remember that the three groups you describe are only the groups you're personally familiar with or have an affinity for. Before WoW even went into beta (during friends & family alpha, in fact), guilds were forming among people with similar playstyles and level of commitment in the pursuit of goals. You saying that lowering the bar is better for bringing people into endgame has some merit (it's what every MMO developer is doing, after all) but it smacks of personal bias because you fail to acknowledge the alternatives (which you might not be familiar with).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leviathan99
In STO, my basic question is: why do STFs? They're just this weird little alternative gameplay style that gets dumped on you at endgame, for which there is no puggable precursor to make people consider doing them.

Grouping needs to be introduced to players before you require a skilled form of it. Otherwise, people won't group and they certainly won't do challenging group content.

Even in an MMO, you have to sell people on grouping and teach them to do it before you can reasonably expect skilled groups to form, aside from the people whose brains are just wired funny, that one of the four Bartle types that's social.
I agree with this but it's more than that. In STO (and pretty much all games of its kind that specifically target and pursue the most casual of playstyles), the gear from "raids" isn't significantly better than the gear acquirable from other, less stringent sources. Thus, the only people who complain about not being able to access that gear are those who are indignant over the mere thought of having to socialize or join a collective to experience certain content (and get those rewards). Now, before the spray of indignation turns in my direction, I should note that I soloed from tutorial to Vice Admiral with two teams (of friends from other MMOs) at Lt and that's it. But I've also led raid guilds in other games (so I'm familiar with herding wet cats) and have no problems with this game's structure. I just haven't found a fleet that matches my playstyle, goals, and level of commitment to achieving those goals. And I'm somewhat old school in that I don't believe in "guild hopping".

I would agree that there are no "starter raids" in STO but that's to be expected. No one designs those kinds of things at the start of development. Heck, STO doesn't have many raids period. I don't think expecting them to put in raids for the less organized/motivated this early in the game's life is a very good use of resources. The same thing will happen to those raids that occurs in every other game's: they'll be farmed to death by the people who they weren't intended for and then never done again. Fleets will train their newbies on raids the fleet is doing (read: not the starter raid) because it's more efficient to do it that way. Teaching a new player/member the specifics of an encounter they're likely to see a lot is far more effective than taking them through the Chutes & Ladders of raids. But you're right on one thing. You do have to incentivize teaming (for raiding or otherwise) since there are significant drawbacks to shouldering other peoples' issues with your own. If given the choice between playing on their own (with all the various benefits of doing so) and playing with someone else and having to deal with their issues (AFKs, "wife aggro", skill level, preferred playstyle, etc), many people go with the former over the latter (I know I do and I've been a hardcore 'guild' player since October of '99).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leviathan99
But they aren't taught to want to do it. Teaming is not a terribly organic part of gameplay until you run into that brick wall where you're expected to be good at it.

I'm not against challenging STFs but there needs to be some kind of precursor to get people in the mindset of organized grouping or people won't do it.

Besides, who even talks in a PuG at Lt. 7 if they do wind up in one?
Again Leviathan, who's gonna pay for it? Do you expect the playerbase as a whole to forgo any content that's broad in appeal, so they can use those resources to create your starter raid(s)? Remember, creating a raid isn't just a matter of design. You need coding and perhaps art (or people will whine about the raid looking like something else). So many of the departments you'd need to create new content that appeals to all players, would be tasked with helping to create this raid that appeals to....who, exactly?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic_One View Post
I don't disagree with the idea that Cryptic needs to find ways to get people to team throughout the game. I simply disagree with the idea that it can be done at the end of the game. After 45+ levels of solo play a 15 minute PUG tutorial before attempting the hardest content in the game will accomplish nothing. People need to be taught the benefits of group play long before they get to an STF. There needs to be must-team objectives throughout the game to teach people the benefits of teaming. By the time they get to the STFs people are to hardened into the solo play mode.
I would agree with this only because, in my experience from talking to many people (fleet recruiters/members and otherwise) that there are many people who play this game who aren't well versed in raiding, in general. Many of the lessons taught by raiding in other games are easily applicable here. The specific differences could be taught via a quick tutorial but that's assuming the player is familiar with raiding in general. If they're not, a tutorial's not going to do it but a full scale raid scenario (like Leviathan suggests) would. Problem is, there's a cost (even if it's only an opportunity cost) to implementing that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic_One View Post
Raids in every MMO are designed for multiple people. Loners in all of the 300+ MMOs are just going to have to learn to accept that.
You say that as if people who prefer the solo path are somehow deviant in doing so. If the developers agreed with you, they would make teaming mandatory (if not overtly, then definitely 'functionally'). It's not like it hasn't been done before (*cough*EverQuest*cough*). While I would agree that it seems daft to complain about content designed for groups when 99% of the game is soloable, I can't agree with the insinuation that choosing not to be saddled by other people's issues (or to saddle them with your own, whatever the case may be) somehow makes you an undesirable. 'Loner' doesn't tend to have a positive connotation, y'see (much like 'drifter'). I'm guilded in nearly every MMO I play, except this one and a few of the f2p ones. Of course, what you say isn't true either. I know of several people who can do raids all by themselves (multiboxing). So your 'all of the 300+ MMOs' statement is false.