Thread: K't'inga Refit?
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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 42
06-26-2011, 08:02 AM
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
none of what i wrote can be called all that canon, and some things were kind of implied in the movies but i ran with them. there is a lack of a concrete information durring that period and i did my best to piece together information and figure out a pecking order.
Always a good idea, however in many cases such tings don't entirely come into existence in a complete vacuum.
There are thos who read stuff from various tabletops, fanon "intelligence papers" or use computer game stats as a basis.

Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
1. the lack of canon open war at that point might be because of a deterrent. the refit constitution getting rid of v'ger when a squad of ktingas was annihilated could be such a deterrent.
The storylines between SFB and the movies diverge almost immedeatelly meaning the "General War" from SFB never took place.
But also the Refit of the Enterprise we see never takes place in SFB although it would occured well before their General War in terms of years between the Organia incident and the oubreak of full-scale war in that universe.
Also the SFB upgrades look quite different:

On both you can see their version of the uprated Constitution, called Vincennes Class.

*scratches head*
I hope this respones makes sense somehow.

Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
2. the connie being no match for a ktinga i think is funny because the klingons think its really powerful at that time, if you run with that deterrent idea. in those SFB based starfleet command games federation ships always had the best sensors, so i figure they would know how their ship stacks up before the klingons do, they would need a fight to be sure. plus the federation has the excelsior eventually and connie, and it only seems fare that the ktinga ranks somewhere between the 2. in canon the klingons didn't have all those nifty FASA ships.
The problem there is that the K't'inga is still just half the mass of the Connie refit, which is about 50 science/50 combat so they'd end up somewhere around evenly matched again.

It is also interesting to note that just every tabletop that was ever "official" made the D7 and its variants a little below the Federation cruiser couterparts.
So ther sems to be some odd reason for that.

Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
3. i recall the destruction of the Hood from ether SFB or FASA or whatever sparking a war or open aggression so i used that as the incident that gave the klingons real battle intelligence, then they acted accordingly.
Three, and since there is no actual K't'inga in the SFB universe they used standard D7s.
In fact the guys from ADB once explained in an edition of their "Captain's log" magazine why they thought a Klingon battlecruiser was in their opinion incapable of firing Photon Torpedoes (one of the trademarks of the K't'inga)
In eraly season of TOS the Enterprise shuddered a little when she fired weapons and the lights also dimmed occasionally.
So the interpretation from ADB was that the ship sustained some kind of stress when using its weapons, similar to the use of naval guns whose recoil causes shock-like stress on a ship.
Since in SFB Photon torpedoes are more akin to energy weapons they cause a lot more shock than lighter weapons like Phasers.
The SFB rules also force players to roll for shock-damage to the ship when it is considered "overgunned".
This is for example the case with the New Jersey Battlecruiser, which has 6 Photons instead of the 4 of the Kirov-type.
The Kirov does not suffer from this since missiles don't cause shock.
Anyway when torpeodes are fired in too short a sequence from each other the player must roll for ship whose results will cause damage to the ship.
So in the opinion of the ABD guys a Klingon Battlecruiser would not be able to use Photons because the launcher would be in the forward section which is connected to the rear only by the thin boom.
So when using Photons for any length of time the ship would tear itself apart in the middle where it is supposedly so weak.
So in the SFB universe, from which you took your idea that a K't'inga took out the Hood, they'd probably furrow their brow of the very notion of a K't'inga's existence.

Just a little anecdote regarding the incredible differences between SFB and modern Trek, nothing more.

Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
4. a D7 probably cant just be turned into a ktinga, so i figured a D8, or what ever you would call an uprated D7 would make sense. i was saying that a D8 and a ktinga were 2 different ships too, the ktinga being all new from the ground up and the D8 being an upgraded D7. since the connie refit is an uprated connie, it seemed that them being a more even match was fair.
My mistake I misunderstod you there regarding the D8 K't'inga difference.
Intersting enough, in Klingn Academy that was what they actually did.
And after the V'Ger incident the Klingons paused the upgrade process for months thinking it was a design flaw that caused the three ships to be wiped out.
When they learned how powerful the blue could actually was they started the upgrade process anew.
It's really funny how different some of the soft-canon interpretations can turn out.

Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
5. the enterprise movie era history between ST I and ST II i talked about is basically exactly what any complex timeline you can find on line would tell you about that era.

6. i noticed that the relient's role bar phasers looked thicker then the enterprise's phasers in ST II, and in ST III kirk specifically asks about a refit, not just a repair, and he's gotten his second wind and feels young and all that and he wants the enterprise to be top of the line again. to me that implies that the heavier role bar phasers the light cruiser relient fired might be a newer stronger emitter, and would be installed in the duel turret locations on a heavy cruiser, wile a light cruiser might just have those heavier phasers in its role bar. so thats why i think there was a further uprating, but that doesn't seem like enough to beat a ktinga to me.
The special effects were exactly the same, which becomes pretty clear when you look at the scene in the Mutara Nebual where Raliant tries to cut trough the Enterprise's hull and compare it with the first strike of the Enterprise after Spock dropped Reliant's shields earlier.

You also seem to misunderstand what the term "refit" meant in Star Trek 3.
"Refit means getting the ship fit again.
It doesn no always mean that the ship is taken apart and mut back together with new capabilites.
It means getting it back up to strength when that strength was diminished.
For example the old British Battlecruisers HMS Renown and Repulse (sister ships) were so unreliable that they speant lots of time in docks for repair.
The crews referred to them as HMS refit and HMS repair, clearly showing that the two terms are not that different.
Refit in a different sense it only applicable when the ship is refit to a higher perfornance standard, like the Lakota was obviously refit to the higher 24th century standard or the Costitution class was in Star Trek 1.

Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
7. the klingons turning to the bop design would make sense because if their top cruiser couldn't compete then they would need a cheap giant slayer because they could not compete with the federation economy, another notion from the starfleet command games
...which is tricky because Starfleet Command was based for the most part on Star Fleet Battles, which is only based on TOS and parts of TAS.
However the "Prime Directive" RPG, which plays in the same universe has a special section that exlpains a few of the differences between Star Trek as we know it and the "Star Fleet Universe".
It begins with the sentence "This is not Star Trek".
The only reason why Interplay could combine aspects of both (in a very confusing way actually) was because they had the licenses for both SFB and the TOS era movies at the same time.

However that the Klingons had some economic problems after the Praxis incident would at least fit

Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
8. that augment smooth brow fear in heart thing should be all to familiar to anyone who watched enterprise and has played STO, and could further explain siding on caution durring this time. also the klingon academy storyline that took place before ST VI, by then the klingons were finally becoming klingons again.

9 in the late 24th century the BOP was the go to klingon ship when anything less then a vorcha or negvar was needed. the ktinga was only ever in the background. also that red beam they fired during that period i figure are some kind of heavy weapon for fleet battles, any conventional weapons it could mount at that time probably wouldn't be powerful enough to mater.
In terms of the BoP, I'd personally say the Klingons used something like a BoP yes, but as we saw in various episodes of TNG (not just Yesterday's Enterprise) those were ships that were also physically between the K't'inga and the Vor'cha.
However I'd also like to add that one of the reaons for that was because just like the Movie Enterpise model, the K't'inga model was not available for shooting special effect scenes.
Which is why the K't'inga in TNG:"The Emissary" just just a reuse of a special effects scene from Star Trek 1.

The red mystery beam from "Way of the Warrior" is not entirely that mysterious when you watch "Honor Among Thieves" where we see the familiar Klingon Disruptor Rifle from Star Trek 3 used again.
The weapons effect is entirely identical to the red beam the K't'inga used.
It's just a disruptor.

Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
i think that's all that might need explaining, i'll try to further clarify if wanted.