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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 961
01-10-2012, 07:00 PM
Originally Posted by Foxrocks
I would highly disagree with that statement. Those passives are extremely useful to every ship class, and the way they were split up vastly increases the cost to skill them.

they are absolutely not all needed, only most people don't feel comfortable without skilling all of them. what uses does a dive bombing, decloaking, alpha striking escort have with hitpoints and armor? none! they should be full engine power evasive after they get thier kill, or fail to get their kill. pouring points to try to correct uncorrectable weaknesses is a waist of points. a lot of science ships builds don't need boosted energy weapons damage or crit enhancers, their science abilities are their primary means of damaging. they turn pretty good too, they might not need much turn rate buffing. cruisers only really need the defensive skills, unless the user has delusions of being a major damage dealer. federation cruisers dont turn well, that's another unfixable weakness, and an unnecessary point dump for a slightly better turn rate. you had to invest in 5 (1 at each tier) '+ to ship type' skills before to get the buffs from that skill you particularly needed, now you can invest in the skills individually that you need for lot less.

Originally Posted by Foxrocks
Not true at all. If you want to optimize your spec into a particular ship class, you are going to skill differently for each ship class in this system. You can much easier switch between say two different escorts, but going from escort to science ship pretty much demands a respec unless you specced so generally you are not really specced for anything.

wait i though those extremely useful passives are extremely useful to every ship class, so you should be all set to switch ship types by specing into all of them right? before your '+ to ship type' skills gave you zero benefit if you switched types, now they give quite a lot of benefit. sure sure, your science skills would be messed up if you switched from non sci ship to escort or cruiser, i acknowledge that. but going from dps escort to dps cruiser should work well. that's surly what the majority of casual players will end up doing, so they are fine, and that's whats important to cryptic

Originally Posted by Foxrocks
With the removal of the three different tiers of skill spending (Tier 1, tier 2, and tier 3-5), BOFF powers are wholly dependent on putting points directly into the skill required for them. In the old system you could more effectively swap BOFF powers because you were most likely specced into the appropriate tier 1 and 2 skills which toegether could give you 48% effectiveness. Now if you do not directly spec into the skill, that boff power operate at base effectiveness, not half, which makes you less versatile.

Don't also forget that some skills now require up to 3 tier 3-5 skills to maximize all effects. Photonic shockwave requires graviton generators, particle generators, and subspace decompiler. That is not simpler, nor cheaper by any stretch.

Completely false. Again in the old system, you would spec into Starship Operations and emitters, sensors, and deflector skills which gave you a benefit to any science power you wanted to use. The tier 3-5 skills added more to that effectiveness, of course, but without those, you were likely specced to 45-48% for any given skill.

In the new system, you can't do that at all. You would have to rank every skill to 3 to get that same effect. That is far more prohibitive in terms of cost, and because it is a bad idea to do that, you are not likely to be able to switch between multiple BOFF powers effectively.

Cruisers and escorts make out far better in the new tree than science ships, regardless, I still can't quite reproduce the season 4 builds I had for those ships because there are less points and more places that would require them.
what a distorted vision you have, the opposite is true, at least for engineering skills. just about every engineering passive is helpful in its own right, so its likely most will spec into them. on top of that, you only need 1 skill, maybe 2 to fully boost engineering abilities. ive not seen an engineering ability have more then 2 skills that benefit it. before there were around 4 skills needed to fully buff abilities. it was very specific too, each EPtX for example had its own specific group of powers that buffed it, and only 1 in common, now they all have 1 or 2 common skills they all draw benefit from. aux to struc and ET are both engineering hull heals, and before they had no common skills that buffed their effectiveness, now all hull heals need but 1 skill speced into to fully buff them.

i actually don't have any experience with higher level science skill post change, but their abilities needing that many skills speced into them for effectiveness is too costly, and not in line with the precedent set by the engineering powers. that's unfortunate if true, and should be corrected. no ability should have more then 2 skills needed to buff them, and those skills fully speced should have thier old strength, the engineering skills do. i remember ET 3 healing ~10000 hit points pre change, and it heals about that post change with just 1 skill speced into.

as far as i can tell going from costing 4 skills to buff something, (a captain and admiral level skill being 2 of those skills in most cases) to 2 or 3 skills still sounds like the cost differences are a wash to me, unless an ability needs 2 admiral level skills speced into it. like i said, im not a science expert in the post change, so i am unaware if thats the case.

Originally Posted by Foxrocks
No, not everyone is in the same boat. Science ships got royally hurt by this change with the prohibitive cost of tier 5 skills and the lack of general low cost spending that gave a broad effectiveness, in addition to the split and increased cost of the passive ship skills from the tactical and engineering trees. And do not forget the new skills added that are direct inhibit a number of science powers.

And again, I can't 100% reproduce my builds at all on any ship. Overall my effectiveness in certain areas dropped, some far more than others, though, depending on the ship, but there are things that are definitely less possible now.
i think our difference of opinion stems from you being a heavy science user, and 1 not. sounds like specing for science skills is too expensive, but im completely happy with the results for a cruiser or escort build.

im fully in support of no more then 2 skills buffing abilities, that's affordable and in line with the cost of engineering skills.

if it were up to me, the skill tree would be mostly done away with, and something resembling it would be made part of the ship costume customize. these skills arnt anything your captain is capable of effecting, its modifications to your ship. as you rank up, you gain more ability to modify your ship, ala 'skill points', and you spend them as you see fit in the 'skill tree'. modifications to your ship, again skill tree stuff, just like costume changes should cost energy credits. so no more skills, just refit options. a ground skill tree is fine though.