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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 30
03-01-2012, 08:41 AM
Originally Posted by helixsunbringer
Okay so you are using Single Barreled Cannons to achieve a 180 Degree Firing Arc. My Mark X Phaser Beam Array does 168 DPS with a 2.5% chance to disable 1 Sub-system for 5 seconds. In addition it has a 250 Degree Firing Arc.
First of all, you do NOT get 250 deg arc with beams. With a beam boat you really only have 70 arc. Yes beams have 250, but the overlap of fore and aft only gives you that 70 deg where all you're weapon can fire, one on each side, meaning a total firing arc of 140 deg. As opposed to cannons, which have 180, which overlaps the entire 180 with the turrets. So 140 for beams, and 180 for cannons.

Originally Posted by helixsunbringer
I usually load a total of 7 of these types of weapons onto my Odyssey Cruiser
Ok, stop right there. It doesn't what my cannon/turret dps is. I have 3 tac consoles vs the 2 in an ody. That's an extra 26% damage, and a lance which the ody doesn't have. So the beams on an ody would have to do 26%+ more dps than cannons, and that just isn't possible.

Originally Posted by helixsunbringer
1176 DPS + 7 different 2.5% chances to disable a subsystem. Now looking at a similar Mark of Cannon and Turret, you will end up with approximately 1110 DPS if you include a Torpedo in the mix. In fact I don't think there is any way your set up actually can out DPS my set up in the long run.

And this is purely using Phasers, this doesn't even take into account Anti-Proton Weapons or anything of that sort.
You know, the fact that you just add up the base numbers and say you proved me wrong really frustrates me, because now I have write a giant wall of text to explain why. Like you completely ignore the fact that the dread has 3 tac consoles vs the 2 in an ody. But let's assume that we're talking about dread in both cases, the dragon vs mine.

So here we go...

When I say more dps, I mean total dps, which means I take into consideration abilities as well. For the example I'm going to use I will use 3 cannons + 4 turrets setup because DBB + BOL alone does 5k dps, which would give me considerably more dmg than the dragon.

1) raw damage:
BFAW increases your dps by 25% with 1.25 shots per sec instead of 1/sec. CRF increases dps by 30%, with 5 shots per sec

in 30 seconds:
1176 dps x 1.25 (BFaW) x 10 sec + 1176 dps x 1.25 (BFaW) x .1 (EPtW) x 5 + 1176 dps x 20 sec = 38,955 total damage done


1110 dps x 1.3 (CRF) x 10 sec + 27 (DEM3) x 50 shots + 1110 dps x 20 sec + 27 (DEM3) x 40 shots = 39,060 total damage done.

Note 1: I did not include APbeta because it is a damage resist debuff, which means it only affect hulls, and I cannot say how much time within a 30 sec window you would have fighting someone without shields. In fact, most of the time people will have their shields up the whole time until just before they get blown up. However I did include the EPtW effect for 5 sec.

Note 2: I'm also assuming pvp since in pve I can mount DHC, which is more base dps. And since only in pvp do I need to run singles, that is what I will assume.

Note 3: At best the 2 does the same amount of dps. However BFaW spreads out the damage on several different targets, where as the cannons focus down an opponent. And in pvp you really do want to focus someone down rather than shooting a couple of shots off and some random tank or healer who can regen their shields.

Note 4: The dragon does not use DEM as my build does so I did not include it in the calculations. If he did use it, then it would 39,819. However, he would trading survivability for it.

2) Procs:
in 30 sec:
1.25 x 10 + 1 x 20 = 32.5 chances to proc the phaser effect


5 x 10 + 2 x 20 = 90 chances to proc the phaser effect

With the same damage, I get 3 times the number of chances to proc an effect, which pretty much translates to 3 times the number of procs. Even if I had less dps (which i don't) the procs more than makes up for it.

I also want to point out that I'm always trying to face forward, and the dragon always wants to face broadside. This mean I get a chance to use my torps more often, which increases my overall dps.

Originally Posted by helixsunbringer
Actually I just debunked that point.
No you didn't. You just added up some base dps numbers. It's not how the game works.

Originally Posted by helixsunbringer
The Damage Output may technically be higher on Cannons
Again, it's not higher. At best it is the same.

Originally Posted by helixsunbringer
you won't be seeing numbers high enough to out DPS a ship that is using 7 Beam Arrays due to the fact that you are also using the significantly lower damage of Turrets to offset your Firing Arc Restrictions.
Same thing... the math is up there...

Originally Posted by helixsunbringer
I actually don't use a Galaxy X Dreadnought for my Dragon Build. Rather I use the Odyssey Class. Save for the fact that the Odyssey does not have a Lance, and some differences in the Bridge Officer Layout, almost everything else about the build is the same between the two ships. I can possibly acknowledge that your build may be more ideal for use in conjunction with the Beam Lance, but at the same time from the perspective of pure DPS based off nothing other than weapons that don't rely on the ships in built features (such as the Lance)
Not using a feature on a ship is like cutting off your own leg, which i guess that guy in Saw was willing to do. Which begs the question do you even own a dread? Because if you don't even have one, why are you arguing about how bad my dread setup is?

And on a side note, my build is always trying to face forward, and never losses out on dps when I shoot the lance. As opposed to the dragon, which would lose about 1/2 its dps to shoot the lance. And like I said before, if you dont want the lance, use an assualt cruiser or the excelsior.

As I have said before, the ody only has 2 tac consoles, so there is no way it can out perform the dread in dps. Which makes me wonder why you bothered to post those base numbers anyway. I'm starting to get the feeling that you don't quite understand all the mechanics in the game. The ody is a tank/healer/support. You're not comparing apples to apples here, you're comparing apples to a dead cow.

And I don't "rely" on the lance. It is there to provide extra dps, and I use it as such.

Originally Posted by helixsunbringer
it is usually easier to go the Beam Array route than it is the Cannon route unless you are an Escort.
Yes, easier to use arrays. Where cannons take significantly more effort (and sometimes skill) for a marginal gain. But for anyone who wants that slight gain, and is willing to put in the effort, can do so. If you want to be lazy, go for it. I get lazy often and just run out in my assualt cruiser with beams. But when I'm in the mood to play the dread, I burn people down pretty quick.

Originally Posted by helixsunbringer
My entire argument in my previous post hinged on the assumption that the person I was quoting was using standard Single Barrel Cannons which have a 180 Degree Firing Arc and that he was not using Dual Cannons or Dual Heavy Cannons which both have 45 Degree Firing Arcs.

If the individual decides to use Dual Cannons or Dual Heavy Cannons, then at the expense of a significantly reduced Firing Arc, yes they most definitely will be able to out DPS a Dragon Cruiser. However ignoring that contingency then there is no chance save by means of using superior torpedo's than the Dragon Cruiser, that the Cannon wielding Cruiser is going to be able to out DPS a Dragon Cruiser.
In pve the DHC can get face time on target near 100% of the time. And if YOU can't get 100% face time, then it is you, and/or your lack of skill with the dread; and not the ship itself. So in pve the DHC will out dps the dragon. In pvp, well I wrote a wall of text to explain that one.

Lastly, why are you so adament about someone elses build? You make sound as if you're the original author of the dragon build and my build has offended you in some way. WTF?