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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,015
# 50
10-03-2012, 10:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostyandfrosty View Post
couldn't resist
No pun intended.
Quote:
Originally Posted by diogene0 View Post
No I want my powers to be effective even against a buffed target. Sounds fair, eh? I want my powers to do something, because his powers are doing something while mine are totally nullified without any other "annoying" consequence for my target but a dps buff (APO), a speed/turnrate buff (evasive), a dmg resistance buff (polarize), etc. He's buffed like mad and can ignore most of my debuffs. I call this a good deal but only for one side obviously, because his powers are doing something while mine have no effect.
Ignoring how off topic this is, no, it's not fair that you want your movement debuffs to work when APO and PH are up. It's also not fair to say that your all of your powers don't do something because some of them are countered. A doff'd VM will give an escort fits. TBR turns APO into a liability because they will stay in range and eat every pulse for damage directly to the hull.
Quote:
Originally Posted by diogene0 View Post
I think you didn't get what I said, I was just saying that the problem with scis powers is that we face permanently immune targets. There are dozens of counters to science powers, I don't even want to make a list, it would be unending.
Right, and an escort can't load them all. PH means probably 1 more slot for sci. No HE means they're not putting out plasma fires. No Sci Team means sub-nuc hurts longer and VM comes back. Tac Team means no Eng team for disables, so they have to go to sub-system specific batteries.
Quote:
Originally Posted by diogene0 View Post
So when you want to do *something* against one target you have to use a tremendous amount of abilities, tractor beam, SNB, subsystem targeting, a power drain if you're still using one, then a gravity well when his second wave of buffs are over, and of course one of those pay to win consoles if you want to hold if for more than one or two seconds before the third wave of buffs (here you have to use the tholian web or antimatter spread and so on).
Here, we agree. But the devil is in the details. You do need to use a tremendous number of abilities to pop a talented escort with a good buff rotation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by diogene0 View Post
That's why runabouts are almost necessary, they allow you to make something sci -immobilizing your target- during the very limited time it's not permabuffed. Yes it's annoying but it's almlost the only way to kill a good escort, ie taking it at 0 speed to remove all his defense bonus, especially with pay to win ships such as the bug.
Oh, so close! Yet so wrong. You're ignoring the implications (not to mention the logic) of "the very limited time it's not permabuffed." You're seeing the danubes nab people in the holes in their rotation because they are applying almost continual tractor beams. You're coming to the false conclusion that the runabouts are "almost necessary." Those holes in their rotation exist, and you can apply your own tractor beam if you are watching their buff bar carefully. Further, you can widen those holes by forcing them to choose conflicting immunities. Stack some plasma fires so they have to use HE, and there will be no PH to fill the downtime between APO.

A clean buff rotation is a skill, and can only really be countered by skill (SNB aside). This is, I think, as it should be. You're seeing the danube 100% uptime TB snagging them occasionally but failing to build on it. You can't go straight to denying them their defense score without first denying them their immunities, position before submission as they say. Those danubes are a crutch, denying you the ability to become a more skilled player.

To bring this back on topic at least a little, I think Siphons and danubes end up in the same conversation because they remove or reduce the effects of skill, build, and chance. I know when APO is going to run out, and there's a little suspense to see if anybody on the other team notices. Am I going to spill my tea like Sulu in his Excelsior or am I going to get away with being vulnerable? If somebody is on their toes and has a TB off cooldown then I'm going to pay for it. With danubes in the fight I have a TB on me continually so things become inevitable, just like the current Drones.