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Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 658
# 27
11-10-2012, 02:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
this is a pvp game, because the sci ship in the form its in exists at all. and because the 3 ship types balance each other so well when they face off with each other. it would not be this way if the game was set up purely for pve in mind from the start.
The sci ship exists in its current form primarily because they over-nerfed it back in Season 1 or 2 or whenever it was and have never fixed it. This is not a PvP game, the entire game progression is built around PvE, all of the good equipment comes from PvE, PvP isn't even good for getting dilithium, and that's all you can do with it. If sci ships are well balanced in PvP but not in PvE then that is a mistake in the game design, because everything else in the game is built around PvE.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
this is just the way it is, don't blame me.
You are the one fighting a proposed fix though. It's true that this isn't the way I would have liked it to be fixed, I would have preferred a rebalance of abilities to make them more useful. I also think they went overboard with the universal boff stations, it should only have had the ensign to ensure it kept its sci role, but this is what they're giving us, and we definitely need something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
a whole paragraph went toward showing why your argument failed. 2 mines and an aft beam for the subsytem targeting don't require 1 of the 4 subsytems.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
wrong. spike damage is not high up time damage, just CRF1 is enough to make 3 DHC deadly when they need to be. this isnt escort replacing damage, but when a sci ship is around and sets up a target for an escort to take out, this sci ship will have 3 extra DHCs to bring to the table to help bring down the sci debuffed target. proboly at least bringing an extra 33% more damage into the equation, thats an insane thing to introduce in a game with margins this tight.
Mines are primarily potent because of their abilities. Cannon abilities are also a huge portion of their power. Both start at Lt. level, and the Vesta only gets one tac Lt. slot without moving the LtC and becoming a wimpy escort. So you can either have your cannons be potent or have your mines be potent, but not both (and either way you don't get APB or APO). Since players usually rely on their shields, and you hold that shield drains are worthless in PvP, the smart way to go seems to be to get the cannon skill and give up on high powered mines, in which case you may as well get the turrets for a bit of extra damage and more procs. Now, I wouldn't run a high level of weapons power just for those turrets, but maybe 30, and maybe a setting to switch to that pulls out shield and engine power to boost it. Sort of like how most people in escorts and cruisers run a low level of Aux power (none as much as possible with AtB builds) with maybe a setting or a battery to boost heals.

For PvE purposes the Vesta is a completely non-overpowered attempt to make sci ships relevant. A good Vesta is probably going to be around the damage range of a good cruiser, but it's not going to match an escort. It will however have significant CC capability to keep it equally relevant, while good cruisers can tank even the most powerful targets in addition to dealing good DPS and escorts outshine both of the others in DPS without any special secondary ability. That's a well balanced game for the current state of PvE. STO's PvP has always been struggling to hitch a ride along with the primary PvE game, and it's still going to be. I don't know what the solution is for that, and I do think it would be sad if, as some have suggested, PvP disappeared entirely. I do occasionally enjoy a 1 on 1 with a friend, it can be an amusing diversion. But pushing to keep PvE unbalanced is not realistic and doesn't help your cause.