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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 445
# 64
02-02-2013, 11:41 AM
Originally Posted by sophlogimo View Post
What may be satisfying to me may not be satisfying to you. Thus we won't be able to establish a proof based on subjective expression like "satisfying" or "fun".
Hey guy, guess what? Just because you can't quantify something doesn't mean it isn't real, and can't be compared. For example - going to a funeral? Not fun, generally. Reading your posts? Moderately entertaining. Responding to them? More fun. Easy. Thus, again, no, I won't let you dismiss 'fun' as a criteria for a game, since 'being enjoyable' is inherent to the activity, and while it can't be quantified, it can be discussed, compared, and evaluated. This, I would think, would be obvious, but, whatever.

The ONLY reason I can discern that explains why you resist this so much is because you sense that if you allow 'fun' to be a criteria you will lose the debate, since you will end up having to admit that the change would be more fun for you, but at the cost of the fun of the people who enjoy the status quo, and you have little to no chance of convincing people that the benefit (Sophokles enjoys game more) outweighs the cost (other people enjoy it less). I think you are right about that, which is why way back in my first post I said that even if you succeed in coming up with a viable alternative, you would still have to defend that it is preferable, and that I didn't think you could do that.

This is vital - if you are unwilling to defend your alternative as having merit as a game (ie being fun to play), then point blank you lose, and, to take a page from your book, I will ignore any alternative you provide that doesn't take that into account.

Feel free to mis-interpret that as saying "Other people aren't as rational as Sophokles, and therefore can't see that their own preferences are illogical and thus should be ignored", if it helps you feel like you didn't just get your argument crushed.

Originally Posted by sophlogimo View Post
I understand that as " a match will last 10 minutes in 95% of the cases".
It doesn't really mean that, but meh, it really doesn't matter, since functionally they are close enough for everyday purposes. In any case, your first suggestion (alone) does meet this criteria, and thus may have merit for further discussion (although I suspect it would be better to have a 'kill counter OR timer, which ever comes first' system, otherwise you end up with one sided slaughters that have to go on for a full ten minutes, and that probably sucks).

Originally Posted by sophlogimo View Post
First of all, from the above list I can only conclude that you are currently not finding PvP in STO in any way satisfying, because the current combat, not even when limiting it to 5v5 Arena sports events, is not even close to meeting the above criteria.

Second, I ignore any subjective additions like the funny part where you reserve the right to dismiss anything just based on some subjective feeling that you can claim to have, because you obviously were just joking.
First, thanks for putting words in my mouth. This was another trap, and one I DON'T apologize for, because it totally undercuts your argument. Since, as you already pointed out, 'fun' can't be quantified, you have no way of knowing that I don't like the current system, but since you are obviously comfortable drawing a conclusion about my experience in the status quo, it stands to reason that we should be equally comfortable evaluating any proposal you put forth in the same way.

Or, in other words, if you can tell me that the current system is not fun (in your opinion), I can clearly say the same about yours. You don't get to use "the current system is not fun" as a reason to reject it, while at the same time asserting that it is an 'unsuitable' criteria for evaluating the alternative.

Second, since you've chosen to ignore all that, this is me ignoring your proposal, because on face it doesn't meet the 'fun' criteria. Explain how it meets ALL the criteria, and I'll put forth my case for why it doesn't and we'll see where we land.

Oh, and to pre-empt your "then we'll never reach a conclusion" - remember you're not here to 'win' (IE forum PvP), you're here to exchange ideas. It shouldn't matter that no-one accepts or agrees with your ideas if all you are looking for is a nuanced discussion. Unless, of course, that's just what you tell yourself when you realize how badly you're losing.