cruisers are underpowered...
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Join Date: Jun 2012
02-06-2013, 02:53 PM
Originally Posted by
It's not the Cmdr/LCdr rank ability slots themselves. It's the abilities available on the way up.
X, X, X, X
X, X, X
When you only have 5 abilities to choose from for the Ensign slots, where 4 of the 5 are in the same group, you don't have many choices.
So you move on to LT slots. There are 7 new abilities. 3 in one group, 2 in another group, and 2 not in a group. You can also take R2 of those 5 Ensign abilities - they're still in the same groups they were at R1 though.
If you took EPtS1 and EPtW1, it's unlikely that you're going to take another EPt at LT. Maybe you took one EPt1 and ET1 and you'll take another EPt2 at LT. So you've still got the choice of one of those 7 new abilities.
So you move on to the LCdr slots. There are 2 new abilities. They don't share a group. Overall, you have a choice of 14 abilities for each of those LCdr slots. There are 8 groups for those 14 abilities. Doesn't sound too bad. Well, you've already picked 4 abilities that may have resulted in 2 abilities in each group. There's nothing saying that you can't use 3 from the same group. With Eng BOFF abilities though, the way the CDs work - odds are something's just going to be sitting there unused. Also, certain rotations of two abilities almost precludes the use of a third.
Btw, don't forget that ET's sharing space with TT and ST.
And then you've got that final Cmdr slot. 7 abilities (9 if you count the R2s as well as the R3s). No new abilities - no new groups. Depending on what you've selected along the way, you may have limited your effective choices.
Compare that to Tac or Sci. Tac has more choices and abilities, but it's going to be limited by weapons. Sci has more choices and abilities than even Tac, but it's going to be limited by skill build. Eng's limited by simply being limited in choices and abilities, but it's also further limited by weapons and skill build as well.
Is it too much to ask that each of the groups have a similar amount of choices - with those choices being balanced by opportunity cost. Tac should have more. Eng should definitely have more. Those "more" shouldn't just be awesomemegabonus time - they should still present some opportunity cost.
If you've got X skills and Y weapons, then Z are your choices. Whether it's Tac or Eng. Sci's obviously going to be that special case since it's so heavily tied into skills.
It's even been suggested in similar discussions that only Ensign rank or En/Lt rank abilities be added. Even if you could only take R1 or R1/2 of something - that still has that opportunity cost either in other ability selection, weapon choice, or skill build - it could go a long way not only improving Cruisers...but improving any vessel that has at least one Engineering BOFF slot.
Ens: EPTS1, EPTA1 or EPTW1 or EPTE1 (probably aux for support build)
Lt: ET2 x 1 or 2, Aux2damp (if needed vs stun heavy team)
LtCmdr:ES2, Aux2Sif2 or ES2
Cmr: ES3 or Aux2Sif3 or ET3
Doffs:Eptx cooldown reducing doffs, ES doff(s), and/or maint doff(s)
For variety add in EWP w/doffs, or DEM w/doffs.
Again these ships (Fed support cruisers) are meant to repair.
T4 passives/rom sci consoles aside, pressure damage cruisers are different. They don't have 2 tac consoles for starters. To me I just can get past using the right tool for the job, instead of trying to redesign a tool away from what it was originally built for. I don't see anything in Eng Boff layouts that prevents them from doing this role.
Originally Posted by
My Fed Eng flies a Chel Gret - Escort.
My KDF Eng flies a Mirror Vor'cha/Kamarag - Battle Cruiser.
My Fed Sci flies a Mirror RSV - Science.
My KDF Tac flies a Mirror Vo'quv - Carrier.
The only toon that comes close to filling the stereotypical role is the Fed Sci. Course, I doubt he could kill you if you were AFK. However, the Tac/Tac next to him could kill you pressing his spacebar with his pinkytoe while eating Cheetos and watching a movie. That's the closest any of them come to the stereotypical role. (And no, that's not a challenge - it's not a specific "you" - it's just the generic you as in somebody.)
The KDF Tac's actually the closest thing to a healer out of that group. She'll drop FoMM on whatever target's been called or needs it, she'll TI teammates, and isn't stingy with the heals. I feel safer with the GDF with that much hull than on an Escort as well. It's funny seeing how much hull you have left even at 30%.
I DPS with both Engineers - though the KDF Eng will also tank in PvE or bait in PUGland. The Chel's sporting Beams and the Vor'cha/Kamarag are using torps.
I'm fully aware that a Tac could do more damage in the Chel Grett than the Eng can.
I'm fully aware that the Eng could do more damage with DHCs than Beams.
The Tac's also more likely to die than the Eng though.
With DHCs you're fighting for positioning to use them which can leave you exposed - with the Beams, they're doing their thing while I'm making sure I'm not exposed.
Tac/Tac have a tendency to disengage and run away. So much has been min/maxed around trying to deliver that alpha... I try to min/max to go "oh that tickled" at the alpha while winning a battle of attrition. If I was a Tac in that Chel Grett and using DHCs... man, I'd probably have quit by now - dying too much and doing garbage for damage because of it. I don't though. I'm an Eng in it with Beams. I plod along - have fun - then I'm outnumbered or a Sci's making me call him daddy...and then I respawn.
That's not a VD's awesome by any means. There are folks out there that would shred me regardless of what I'm flying. Hell, there's folks out there that would shred me and any friends I brought along. They're effin' awesome.
But yeah, all that aside - I agree that folks should look at their playstyle - what they want to do - and plan accordingly. That doesn't mean folks can't look at something and see there's something wrong with it.
I hate posting in these threads at times, because I often feel that I get lumped in with all the crazies. No genuine offense meant to them, but c'mon - they're freaking loons.
Tac > Eng
Escort > Cruiser
Which means Tac/Escort > Eng/Escort & Tac/Cruiser > Eng/Cruiser. Eng/Escort vs. Tac/Cruiser...that's a tough one. Heh, Eng/Bug > Tac/Star Cruiser. That's safe, right?
I don't buy into the Eng should be able to do the same damage as the Tac. I don't buy into the Cruiser should be able to do the same damage as the Escort.
Doesn't mean I don't see problems with Engineers, Engineer BOFFs, and Cruisers. Heck, I think even Tac Captains and Tac BOFFs need some love. Sci? Yeah, they need some love from the Eng and Tac Captains in their Cruisers and Escorts.
Escort > Cruiser depends on the escort and cruiser in question and the type of damage desired. This thread has focused on Fed support cruisers, not BCs nor hybrids. I still haven't seen anything wrong w/cruisers even if I conceded the Eng Boff issue which I don't.
Eng Captains sure.
Pressure DPS w/all the new passive repair procs and FT shield resistance procs, sure.
Eng Boff powers, no.