Thread: Defense Rating
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,501
# 32
02-11-2013, 02:02 PM
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
But that's the thing I'm trying to say. It's not just any of the individual items I listed. It's not the individual items you listed. It's not a pissing contest between Issue A and Issue R. It's that combination of all of the things together.

If you only address one out of the countless little issues, the cumulative effect of those remaining issues is likely going to be more of a problem than the problem which was resolved.

Cryptic needs to fix a bunch of crap all at the same time to start getting anywhere with this. And if in going through and doing that, they find that something's not working as well as it should...they can bump that up (one at a time) - see how that works - see what it affected - and then keep working through all the variables.

Otherwise, nothing's ever actually going to be fixed nor balanced.

There was a convo in OPvP yesterday, where some of us were talking about it - I was wondering what effect doing the following to one of my builds in a Chel Grett would mean...

Already has +15% Defense (9 Maneuvers), +10% Defense (Elusive), +10% Defense (Escort), +5% Defense (Aegis engines), +5% Defense (2pc Aegis w/ Deflector)...which gives him +90% Defense while moving. Even at quarter impulse on x/25 Eng Power, he's at +90% Defense. Sitting still, he's at 15% Defense (as long as he's moved, respawn/warp in doesn't count the +15% from Maneuvers so he'd be at 0% during that scenario - and - apparently the +10% for Escort only counts while moving).

What if I were to add the AMACO shields into that mix with the Subvert Targeting?

As is, somebody with ACCx3 weapons, Accurate, and 9 Targeting is looking at an 80% chance to hit me when I don't have APO running. If they don't ACCx3, Accurate, and 9 Targeting - they're looking at a 52.3% chance of hitting when I'm not running APO. Then there's EM, SFM, etc that can further boost Defense.

He's got his lil' Borg secondary bubble for it's tiny chance at Reactive Deflection. He's got the T4 Rom shield heal on being crit proc. DCE'd EPtS means full uptime on EPtS. Still runs one BFI DOFF. He's got two Conn(TT) DOFFs so TT's at global as well as that boost for the dual APOs. He runs BTW for the shennanigans. I'll switch out his Sci BOFF depending on my mood what's going on, so he'll either also have PH1 or VM1. And...he's an Engineer*. adding the AMACO shields with Subvert... what would that do for the overall defense of this escort?

Let me jump ahead for a moment, because any experienced PvPer should see that the easiest way to deal with this particular boat is with chained SNBs/VMs with tractors. Yep, he'll ignore single SNBs/VMs/tractors - chain it and pop him. Well, as long as nobody's supporting him. But yeah, without support and that taking place - pops pretty damn fast. It's a crying shame how fast he'll pop when before that he was appearing invincible.

But again, it's an Engineer. So there's no damage. If I were to link his skill build, you'd likely say it was a Tac. Where he suffers for damage is on two fronts - he doesn't have the Tac innate abilities and he's using beams. BEAMS? WTF? I wouldn't have made such a big deal out of the defense if it was a case that I had to play with that narrow 45 arc and trying to sit on a target. Nope, I just fly around going wheeeeee...

...with 4x Romulan Plasma Beam Array Mk XII [Acc]x2's, a placeholder for the Experimental Beam Array (man that grind burnt me out so fast) in the form of just a regular ol' Plasma Beam Array, the Cutting Beam, the Omega and Hyper-Plasma Torps. 8.9% base crit (after passives/consoles), +25% base bonus accuracy, +30 Weapon Training, 4x Infusers, blah, blah, blah...'s got more damage and more survivability than if I tried it in a Cruiser.

But it's still LOLdamage in the end, I won't argue that in the least. The boat's awesome in Ker'rat or PUG queues... vs. PUGmades or Premades? Just another dead noob laughed at in OPvP.

So you drop the Eng. You run five with 2x Tac and 3x Sci. You switch the weapons. DHCs for the Tac guys, knowing they might temporarily give up some Defense for their shots. You give the Sci guys a mix - work in some Chrons, go with Phaser/Disruptor/Polaron/Tetryon weapons. You BOFF out to cover crosshealing/cleanses.

Why would you need any other ships other than Escorts? Is it any one thing? No... it's all the things combined - the cumulative effect.

It's why I can run an Engineer in a Beamscort...which although it's still highly laughable, is a Hell of a lot better than it should be. So I still wonder about those AMACO shields...doubt I would do the grind for the MACO set first to be able to get them. I'll likely just stick to Plan A - switching out the Aegis Deflector/Shields for MACO Deflector/ up 5% defense while moving for the better deflector and shields - including that additional reduction to energy damage vs shields (the additional for Plasma), the additional subsystem power from getting hit, and the increased insulation and recharge buff from the 2pc.

Again, imho - it's the cumulative effect of all the stuff we can do - it all adds up. When things are off here and there with many of those pieces - it all adds up...

...and we know there's more on the way.
Again, I generally agree the whole is greater than the some of its parts. But, some parts do have more impact than others.

Having run it before I can tell you at best the 90 defensive base value w/KHG shields passive buys you a little time. Often it doesn't b/c people are running w/high Acc procs and/or movement (thereby defensive value) debuffs. Quite frankly even before the fleet stuff and all it wasn't that practical to count on those 90 defense +KHG shield procs as there are/were better gear/fitting combos for surviving. This combo has been around for over a year now on KDF side.

As far as defense maxing goes, aiming for 90 as a max is not the best option. 140-150 w/KHG MEF and Recall Doffs is, and it fits slow support ships better than escorts b/c of how crappy combat engines are for escorts. Seriously, 4 spamming ships can be at 110 and when under FF spike to 140 when in recall w/o counting evasives et al. Tbh, from messing around for a week or so w/KHG 3 part and a single purple recall doff this is effective unless debuffed.

The root cause of pressure damage going by the wayside has been the Fleet shield resist boosts combined w/the passive repairs. It doesn't matter if the escort was at a dead stop or not, the high resists combined w/the high frequency of passive repairs all but negates the pressure damage.

The next issue is what allies escorts to keep such a high uptime on 1 copy of APO and 1 copy of APD opening up Boff slots while maintaining such a high defense. It's the cooldown reduction Doffs. This doesn't mean there aren't Doffs to help the team repairside, but to acknowledge it's helped keep them in fights longer w/shorter times between spikes.

There are still many ways to drop a targets defense (SNBs, VMs, Drains, TBs, Omega 3 part bonus, EWP, Target Engines etc).

There are no ways to lower a shields resists short of an SNB buff strip which wouldn't be all that effective vs a target w/Fleet shields since they'd just charge back up in no time. Also, it's not hard to build in redundancy for shield resist spike and there always the max shield preset.

SS Doffs and SNBs are the only way to lengthen cooldowns (an indirect debuff of cooldown reducing doffs).

In otherwords there are next to no counters for cooldown reducing Doff effects and max shield resists (not to mention the passive repairs). There are a crap ton of counters for high defense. This is why it shouldn't be a high priority compared to the other 2.