Thread: Defense Rating
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,499
# 38
02-11-2013, 06:15 PM
Originally Posted by inktomi19 View Post
I'll take your word on it; I'm not that familiar with Aux2Batt builds.

That and some of your comments about running a single APO do highlight another problem -- there are way too many ways to reduce cooldowns. That's part of what contributes to defense being broken.

Aux2Damp doesn't stop you from being immobilized anyway though. It's good for PSW and tricobalts, but those don't stop you from moving. If you get stunned you might be able to tank through the damage on the strength of whatever buffs you had up, but if you get immobilized then your defense goes negative and the damage you take is greatly increased.
TBR doesn't counter TBs, it just pushes them out of range. PSW does break them though. Neither of them have an uptime that can be compared to APO though.

Sci oriented ships still don't get a lot of slots that can be used for PH. The LTC and CDR slots are used for offensive powers, meaning that science ships have 4 LT and ensign slots compared to 2 or 3 on an escort. While they could use PH, they also have TB, HE, TSS, and ST competing. At least one copy each of HE, TSS, and ST is virtually mandatory.Generally speaking, an escort can slip in a copy of PH just as easily, but they just don't need to.

Science Vessels and Cruisers typically use their ensign and LT slots the exact same way escorts do.

You're also ignoring the fact that the uptime on APO makes it so escorts just don't need to use engineering or science slots to counter movement debuffs. While APO isn't up all the time, it's up enough that EM and/or an engine battery can be used to escape. Since other ships don't have that APO shield, they are likely to need to use EM earlier, so they are more likely to get caught while it's on cooldown.
APO doesn't have an opportunity cost in the sense that the engineer and science powers do.

Cruisers only role is healing, but if they use Aux2Damp they lose Aux2SIF -- they need to chose between movement and healing.

Science Vessels are for control, debuffing, and healing -- while PH doesn't lock out their primary powers, it does use a slot that could be used for something that helps the ship's role.

Escorts are for DPS. APO increases DPS in addition to providing protection from movement debuffs. Only escorts have access to a defense that also helps them fill their role.

Everybody carries engine batteries. I run TSSE on my science ship (a second copy in addition to the integrated one), and it almost never immobilizes an escort for any appreciable time because they can hold off on using their engine batteries. WIth the long cooldown on TSSE and the disable being a proc chance, they'll usually have their batteries back before it procs a second time.

I usually find cruisers to be the easiest ships to immobilize. Because of their poor turn rates they rarely run at full speed, so between 2xTSSE, GW, and the TBs from my Vesta's runabouts, they'll eventually get stuck. They might get out once, but I can keep trying other things on them. Speed alone can get an escort through quite a bit, and APO pops up like clockwork, so there are only narrow windows in which they might get immobilized to begin with.
This is true, and it's possible that if pressure damage became relevant again, the higher mobility of escorts wouldn't be such an overwhelming advantage.

The fact that escorts can generally tank as well as other ships (not counting zombie builds that sacrifice their team role in favor of tanking) makes their superior mobility imbalanced. I remember when escorts had to hit and run to function, but for the most part that's gone away.

So now the higher mobility just means that they don't take the same penalties to defense as other ships.
I've mentioned Boff cooldown reducing Doffs are an issue in other posts and agree it's an issue. I don't think it's limited to Escorts nor benefits them more than other ship types significantly. Even w/the cooldowns there are windows in APO uptime. Also, if/when the defense duration is fixed it will allow for an even larger window.

The global on TBR and PSW is 30 seconds fyi. While longer than TB cooldown (as low as 3 seconds depending on the TB being used) they can help.

On my Tac KDF Vet ship I use all 3 Teams, 2eptx, and HE, and batteries to counter debuffs. It's a hybrid ship so it's more capable of doing this than most escorts. I use these counters, so I can run. This is w/a cooldown reduced APO.

APO isn't the death immunity some are making it out to be. TSSE of a high enough tier that hits will hurt even if it doesn't shut engines down. This is move effective when used/chained w/VM and other system debuffs and drains. Also, TSSx don't have a long cooldown unless your talking about Sci ship 1s. TSSE ability cooldowns are far less then Eng battery cooldowns and should be chained w/other disables like VM anyways.

Cruisers who have Aux2damp don't lose Aux2Sif, they just can't chain it as often if they trigger Aux2damp. Aux2damp gives stun immunity, and since stuns are what interrupts ES it can be a life saver vs teams w/heavy interrupts. Imo, this is worth losing an Aux2Sif cycle here and there.

Aux2damp has movement buffs which can aid to soft counter Tbs w/high engine power.

TBR is a counter to TBs, pushing people out range is effective you even acknowledge it does this.

When I want to I can break TB holds w/a Voquv (hardly an algile ship) this is w/o a PH or TBR in it's base build (not that I wouldn't swap them in if match called for it). Hint one of the things I do is move to a max speed preset. Tbh, I'd prefer people spam me when I'm flying that rather than Tac allies, so I eat as much dps and debuffing as a can before flying defensively. I'm guessing most support cruiser fly the same way.

Personally, I'd drop the GW for a PSW (interrupts evasives/ES) or VM (drop multiple systems if not clear) or SS (lengthen cooldowns) depending on what Doffs you have. You could also use PSWTorp console (though it's broken atm). Use the PSW/PSWTorp to strip the evasives. I'd use cront torps/mines if you aren't using them as well. For an escort debuffing Sci build anyway.