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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 141
# 288
02-17-2013, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
I don't agree, although I think there is merit to your point.

I think that as we watch the current metagame shift away from pressure to spike (or chained spikes), that higher caps become more relevant.

(snip)
Maybe, but it doesn't feel that way. I think a lot of that is because of the three types of tanking, hull-tanking is by far the worst. The ships with the highest hulls maneuver badly, so they are easy to immobilize, and easy for the enemy to focus on one shield against. If anything they seem to pop quicker.

In general I get the impression Cryptic undervalues turning and overvalues both hull and crew when they budget their ship stats (if they even bother trying to budget stats).
Quote:
This doesn't even include the potential boff layouts (healing potential) with powers such as Aux to SIF 3, ET 3, EPTS 3 all being available to the cruiser (which would also change those made up out of thin air generic ship stats I put forward).
I can have those same setups in a BoP.

And I actually do sometimes run a Vesta with an Lt Cmdr engineering slot, and that is basically just a better cruiser. I miss Aux2SIF 3 a little, but overall it's sturdier (because of it's shields) harder to pin down, and has a much easier time keeping up with team-mates.

I mean I get how powerful the healing BOffs can be, but that's sort of independent of the ship.

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I don't have a problem with your assessment, I do think your underestimating the value of the higher base turn rate on the Wells for getting SNB/90 degree powers/movement linked powers (TBR, PSW)/assist damage on kills on target, etc.
I really haven't had a problem using movement-linked powers in an Intrepid or a Vesta.

I've used a lot of movement-linked sci powers on an MVAM too, but didn't find that ships crazy-high maneuverability a big help onthe science powers (not that it wasn't a big help, but it helped dog-fighting using cannons, not lining up SNBs).

I find that a base-12 turn and engines that add turn are enough for me to use 90-degree abilities, PSW, TBR, and EWP whenever I like. It's not enough for cannon DPS in PvP, but sci powers usually only need to have the target in the arc for a split second.

It's definitely not the same situation as with the JHAS, because nothing about the Wells stops other science ships from doing their job against it, or makes it more difficult for other science ships to defend against it. I guess they are stronger against escorts than other science ships, but against other ship types they really aren't much different than other science ships.
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There is also the potential BOFF layouts (another frequent JHAS complaint) making it both one of the best healers and best sci capable ships.
Except for useless ensigns on some ships, I don't see BOff layouts as something which makes one ship obsolete or not. It's important, but there are ways to make most combinations work very well.

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My points in this thread have been a few key items:

1) People focus complaints on the JHAS, because most people are focued on Escorts - and tend to exaggerate ("as much hull as a cruiser!!") or forget about other ship classes (Wells, Recluse) and the powerful ships that are in them.
My biggest complaint against Bugs is from when I drive an escort. There is just no point having another escort in a match where there is a bug because he is going to outmaneuver you too much unless he makes some major mistake.

That's the same whether you're solo or on a team -- even on a team escorts need to try and stay out of the 45 degree arc of other escorts, and the JHAS is just going to have more time on target.

My science vessels and cruisers fare about the same against them as against any other escort played similarly.

That difference in maneuver exists fighting BoPs or MVAMs too, but both of those are significantly more fragile than regular escorts, so the slower ship can win by tanking a bit more and just making the best of the windows they get.
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2) Most lockbox ships have some very clear advantages over most Fleet Ships - and extremely large and clear advantages over most Cstore "T5" ships.
Maybe?

I see a lot of them in PvP, but none of them shift the balance the way the JHAS does.

I wouldn't have a problem with the JHAS being a better escort. It's turn rate is just way out of line with escorts, and turning is the most valuable attribute of escorts.
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3) The chances of Cryptic nerfing lockbox ships is infinitesimally small, and as much as it might get ire directed at me - I personally feel from a purely business standpoint (and not a game balance standpoint, which would be the opposite opinion) that nerfing these ships in anyway would be a completely terrible business decision.

Requesting better balance going forward on NEW SHIPS is likely to have a better chance of coming true than seeing currently sold ships get nerfed.
I'm not sure that broken ships are helping their bottom line any.

I've bought a lot of ships in the past, but I wouldn't now just because I know that whatever I buy can't compete. Why the heck would I unlock a Fleet Patrol Escort on one character for $20? I like the look of that ship, and I like the BOffs, consoles -- the whole nine yards. But I'd be out $20 and really be no better off than flying the regular tier 5 escort.

It's really the same down the line. I beat fleet ships as often as the regular tier 5 ones.

And Cryptic doesn't even bother trying to balance the game. They have paid ships like the Galaxy-R and Galaxy-X (which are not favorites of mine anyway) which have been broken and near-useless ever since they were introduced. And since a big problem with both of those is their horrible turn-rate, a trait which Cryptic chose to copy in the Odyssey, I don't see a reason to think they will ever try to balance their ships.

I mean, it's easy for Cryptic to see what portion of their revenue is gained from lockboxes. What's harder to see is what portion of their player-base is lost due to particular problems.

Maybe buffing virtually every other ship in the game would be the solution, but that seems silly when the problem is limited to just a couple of ships.